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The main discussion area for this series of articles was at: WP:APARTHEID

New version of proposed contribution

As part of the process of attaining an agreed text, and given that there will also be a suggested version from Ryan Paddy, I would like to present the results of my own further research on the issues raised in my original proposed contribution. That contribution attempted two chief things: 1, it focussed on "delegitimization" as a chief motivation for those advocating the "apartheid analogy," and 2, it sought to give a brief historical background to this sort of advocacy and the current "Israel Apartheid" campaign. The determined and often merely obstructionist rejection of consensus over the past several months has enabled me to pursue the research further on both these topics, and leads to the following much improved version. It raises many important and basic new points highly relevant to the topics, and they cannot all be summarized even partly in a single paragraph; moreover, these points are distinct and important enough in themselves, and generally come from such impeccable and leading political, diplomatic, and academic sources, both non-Jewish and Jewish, that they deserve the allocation of several paragraphs without any fear of giving "undue weight" to their viewpoints. They do considerably advance the case offered in the main article under "Differences in Motivations." I offer them here, with the hope that they might be helpful also to Ryan Paddy and he might want to draw upon them for his own suggested version.

The treatment of footnotes is always a problem in such matters. I have tried in earlier versions to include the footnotes as indented material; this breaks up the text too much, and would especially do so in this case, where there are 60 footnotes. I have taken care to support every statement with cited sources in footnotes, generally at the end of paragraphs but often after every sentence. So I have collected the footnotes as endnotes below the text, and to save space have put them one after another without line breaks. I have also tried to follow what appears to be general Misplaced Pages style for footnotes, which is to give a separate footnote for each cited source. In general, I have only included several sources in a single footnote when the sources comment on each other.

Here is the contribution:

Many other critics of the apartheid analogy have considered "delegitimization" to be a key motivation behind the "apartheid" and "racist" accusations, stigmatizing and demonizing Israel through the consistent application of double standards. As these critics argue, such accusations differ from ordinary criticisms of particular flaws, such as we find in and about any other country, by their essentializing and generalizing demonization of Israel and Zionism per se, to justify rejection and elimination of the Jewish state as such.10]

The double standards are evidenced, it is said, in a perfectionist invocation of universal principles demanded solely of Israel: it is argued that they are used to condemn Israel alone amongst all nations for social practices and flaws that are similar to and no worse than those found in all countries including liberal democracies. As a number of commentators have said, none of these standards are used to accuse the P.A. itself nor neighbouring states of what the critics say are the much worse racism and/or "apartheid"-like practices there, nor to advocate boycotts, ostracism or delegitimization of them.

According to the analytical philosopher Bernard Harrison, close linguistic analysis reveals deeper philosophical and logical problems and even frequent self-contradictions inherent in such delegitimization discourse, and in the use of the racism and apartheid charges against Israel, particularly when proclaimed from what he terms "messianic liberalism" left standpoints.

However, some historians of modern antisemitism have maintained that the language demonizing and delegitimizing Zionism as "racist" and "oppressive" predates the establishment of the State of Israel, and had sources in non-Palestinian antisemitic movements. The Nazi propaganda to this effect, its meshing with Islamist anti-Jewish traditions and modern outrage at any part of "the Muslim world" being ruled by non-Muslims, and its resultant impact on Palestinian nationalist ideology and practice, is discussed in a number of publications by specialists in German history and the Middle East.

But another important source, according to scholars of the history of the Soviet Union, of the history of antisemitism, and the modern history of the Jews, was Russian antisemitism of the Tsarist period, which was taken up and continued in the Soviet Union as "anti-Zionism," often equating it with Nazism and eventually with apartheid South Africa, as one of that regime's main ideological enemies within the U.S.S.R.

Two U.S. ambassadors to the U.N. during the 1970s and 80s, Daniel Patrick Moyniham (Ambassador during 1975-1976) and Jeane J. Kirkpatrick (Ambassador from 1981 to 1985) have recounted and analyzed in similar ways the process by which the Soviet Union used the "apartheid" accusation against Israel in the United Nations and the wider international arena from 1967 on through the 1980s as a key part of a wider global attempt to legitimize Soviet client groups like the PLO as "national liberation movements," while delegitimizing self-defense against them by anti-Soviet "colonialist," "imperialist" and "racist" states that were liberal democracies or allied to the Western democracies. Thus the delegitimization of Israel served wider Soviet geo-political goals against the Western democracies, of which Israel is one. The equation of Zionism to apartheid and racism, in a resolution by the U.N. General Assembly in 1975 was a major triumph in that U.N. campaign, involving the Soviet bloc and client states, the Arab bloc, the Islamic Conference, and the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM), although the Western liberal democratic bloc voted overwhelmingly against it.

Palestinian and other anti-Zionist sources made central use of such language for decades. However, after the fall of the Soviet Union and subsequent rescinding of the "Zionism Is Racism" resolution by the U.N. General Assembly in 1991, this equation was discredited in most quarters for almost a decade. But following the collapse of the Camp David peace talks in 2000, some Palestinian leaders, such as Edward Said, a leading Palestinian intellectual, and Diana Buttu, then legal advisor to the Fatah Council, began to advocate renewal of the accusation, using the "racism" theme and apartheid analogy as part of what Said suggested should be a "mass campaign" in the West to gain support for replacing Israel with a single "bi-national" state.

According to some commentators, the first full expression of this renewed mass campaign appeared at the UN’s World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, held in Durban, South Africa, in September 2001. At that Conference, as described by critics, Zionism was equated again with "racism," "apartheid South Africa" and even "Nazism," Jews felt intimidated by the hatred around them, and particularly in the parallel conference of NGO groups, those supporting Israel were shouted down, physically assaulted and driven from the Conference altogether, leading to the withdrawal of a number of Western states from the proceedings or from the follow-up "Durham II" conference.

Anne Bayefsky, a Canadian political scientist specializing in international law and human rights, considers the delegitimization of Israel pursued at Durban to be part of a current campaign to legitimize Islamist and leftist terrorism as justifiable "popular resistance," not just against Israel but against liberal democracies and Western societies generally.

The use of the apartheid analogy to delegitimize Israel has been a chief focus and justification for the global BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions) campaign pursued since 2004. Omar Barghouti, the Palestinian founder and coordinator of the global BDS campaign, elaborated at length and explicitly on the delegitimization motivation in an interview published in December 2007 having the title: "No to the apartheid 2 state solution: Omar Barghouti: 'No State has the Right to Exist as a Racist State." He strongly criticises Palestinian leaders who support a two-state solution as betraying the Palestinian cause. However, some PLO and Fatah Council leaders state that they have the same goal, just different tactics, for they say they have never recognized the legitimacy of Israel nor its right to exist. Some prominent Palestinian BDS leaders use not only the "apartheid" analogy but that of the Nazis, and have explicitly endorsed terrorism as a legitimate method as part of their overall goal to eliminate Israel.

The interaction of delegitimization, demonization, and double standards is analyzed at length, with bibliographical references, in "Building a Political Firewall Against Israel's Delegitimization: Conceptual Framework, Version A" The Reut Institute, March 2010, p. 11, et passim, http://www.reut-institute.org/data/uploads/PDFVer/20100310%20Delegitimacy%20Eng.pdf Natan Sharansky sought to define how antisemitic criticism of Israel differs from legitimate criticisms such as those leveled against all other countries, in his "3D Test of Anti-Semitism: Demonization, Double Standards, Delegitimization," Jerusalem Political Studies Review, Vol. 16, nos. 3-4 (Fall 2004), available at: http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-sharansky-f04.htm, also see his "Antisemitism in 3D: How to differentiate legitimate criticism of Israel from the so-called new anti-Semitism," at: http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/sharanskyAntisemitism.pdf Dennis MacShane, et al., Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism, September 2006 (London: The Stationary Office, Ltd., 2006), a report made to the British Parliament to guide government policy, lists five ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel (p. 6; also see further discussion pp. 16ff.): "1. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour; 2. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation; 3. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to charaterize Israel or Israelis; 4. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis; 5. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." See http://www.antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/All-Party-Parliamentary-Inquiry-into-Antisemitism-REPORT.pdf This definition is repeated verbatim in the policy "Ottowa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism," November 11, 2010, by the Interparliamentary Committee on Combating Antisemitism, summarizing conclusions from a conference in Ottowa, Canada, of parliamentarians from 53 Western states. See http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/ The demonizing delegitimization theme of "apartheid," and the use of double standards to support it, is discussed in Mark Silverberg, "The Delegitimization of Israel," March 7, 2010, http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=3381 Ben Cohen, "Boycotting Israel: The Ideological Foundations," September 2008, http://www.z-word.com/z-word-essays/boycotting-israel%253A-the-ideological-foundations.html (focusses particularly on ideological rationales for leftist anti-Zionist agitation, and links this to the Soviet Union's furious campaign in the U.N. following Israel's survival in the Six-Day War of 1967). Robbie Sabel, "The Campaign to Delegitimize Israel with the False charge of Apartheid," at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, 2009 Global Law Forum, at: http://www.globallawforum.org/ViewPublication.aspx?ArticleId=110 David Matas, Aftershock: Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism (Toronto: The Dunburn Group, 2005), pp. 53-55. Alan Dershowitz, The Case Against Israel's Enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and Others Who Stand in the Way of Peace (New York: John Wiley, 2009), pp. 20-25, 28-29, 36, 44-48. Brian Blondy, "Debunk of comparison between Israel, apartheid South Africa," Jerusalem Post, 07.19.10, at: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=181845 Gerald M. Steinberg, "BDS -- the New Anti-Jewish Boycott: Isolation as a tactic of Political Warfare," at http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=12449&pageid=16&pagename=Opinion Michael Herzog, "The Phenomenon of Delegitimization in the Overall Context of Attitudes toward the Jewish People," http://jppi.org.il/uploads/herzog_delegitimation.pdf Leslie Susser, "Tide of Delegitimization," May 2, 2010, at: http://www.jpost.com/JerusalemReport/Article.aspx?id=174328, after describing the delegitimization tactics of Israel's enemies, criticises the Israeli government for not doing anything about it: present initiatives are almost all grass-roots responses. The article "Debunking the Apartheid Comparison," at: http://www.gfantisemitism.org/aboutus/Pages/DebunkingtheApartheidAnalogy.aspx#why%20the%20apartheid%20analogy%20is%20false, states: "Labeling Israel as an ‘apartheid’ state is a deliberate attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the Jewish state itself. Criticism of Israel is legitimate. Attempting to describe its very existence as a crime against humanity, is not." Barry Rubin, "The Hour of Hanging Judges: Demonizing Israel and Pretending It Is Ordinary Criticism," GLORIA Center, November 13, 2010, at: http://www.gloria-center.org/gloria/2010/11/hour-of-hanging-judges-demonizing Gerald M. Steinberg, "The war on de-legitimization," Yediot Aharonot, August 12, 2010, at: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3935230,00.html In terms of comparable practices in Palestinian society and elsewhere in the Middle East, and complaints about the double standards against Israel alone in this context, see Gil Troy, "The Double Double Standard," December 8, 2009, Jerusalem Post blog, at: http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/troy/entry/the_double_double_standard_posted Martin Regg Cohn, "Not all apartheid is created equal," The Star, July 6, 2010 http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/832423--cohn-not-all-apartheid-is-created-equal Khaled Abu Toameh, "What About The Arab Apartheid?" March 16, 2010, Hudson New York at http://www.hudson-ny.org/1111/what-about-the-arab-apartheid, on discrimination against Palestinians in Arab states, and "What About The Arab Apartheid? Part II," March 23, 2010, at http://www.hudson-ny.org/1120/what-about-the-arab-apartheid-part-ii; and the same author's, "Palestinians in the Arab World: Why the Silence?" July 20, 2010, at: http://www.hudson-ny.org/1422/palestinians-in-arab-world Abraham H. Miller, "Enforced Misery: The PA and the Balata 'Refugee' Camp - Where are the Flotillas protesting the PA's version of apartheid?" Aug. 31, 2010, at:http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/enforced-misery-the-pa-and-the-balata-refugee-camp/?singlepage=true Maurice Ostroff, "Ethnic Discrimination in Lebanon is not called Apartheid. Why?" Aug. 2010, at www.2nd-thoughts.org/id289.html Bernard Harrison, The Resurgence of Anti-Semitism: Jews, Israel, and Liberal Opinion (Philosophy and the Global Context) (London: Rowman & Littlefield, 2006). Among many other points, Harrison distinguishes between "social or distributive anti-Semitism," the sort visited upon individual Jews for no other reason than that they are Jewish, but which is generally not a serious threat, and "political anti-Semitism," which is directed at the Jewish community and group existence as such, which is a major threat to Jews and to the world. The "apartheid" and "racism" accusations, and similar demonizations and delegitimizations of Israel, are in the latter category. See Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, translated by Ralph Manheim (London: Hutchinson, 1969), pp. 52, 60, 272-96, etc., and Robert Wistrich, Hitler's Apocalypse: Jews and the Nazi Legacy (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1985), pp. 8-10, 154-73, 213-15, etc. Matthias Kuentzel, Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11 (Telos Press, 2009). Klaus Gensicke,Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazis: Amin Al-husaini: the Berlin Years 1941-1945 (London: Mitchell Vallentine & Company, 2010). Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers, Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews in Palestine (London: Enigma Books, 2010). Jeffrey Herf, Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009) For some of the consequences of such "delegitimization," as he terms it, and use of terms like "racism" and "apartheid," see Giulio Meotti, A New Shoa: The Untold Story of Israel's Victims of Terrorism (New York: Encounter Books, 2010). On the direct transmission of Nazi propaganda techniques and slanders to the Arab and Palestinian leadership, see Joel S. Fishman, "The Big Lie and the Media War Against Israel: From Inversion of the Truth to Inversion of Reality," Jewish Political Studies Review, vol. 19, Nos. 1 & 2 (Spring 2007), at: http://www.danielpipes.org/rr/4465.php On Islamist outrage at any part of the Middle East being governed by a non-Muslim state, and double standards and projection in their use of anti-Zionism discourse, also see the terminological analysis of Raymond Ibrahim, "Muslims Project Islam's Worst Traits Onto Israel and the Jews," November 17, 2010, http://www.hudson-ny.org/1673/muslims-project-on-israel-jews Robert S. Wistrich, "Muslim Anti-Semitism: A Clear and Present Danger," The American Jewish Committee, 2002, at: http://www.ajc.org/atf/cf/%7B42D75369-D582-4380-8395-D25925B85EAF%7D/WistrichAntisemitism.pdf Robert S. Wistrich, Hitler's Apocalypse, op.cit., pp. 194-235 (deals with the Soviet use of "Jewish Nazism" "racism," "apartheid," and associated themes). William Korey, Russian Antisemitism, Pamyat, and the Demonology of Zionism; Russian Antisemitism, vol. 2, Studies in Antisemitism series (London: Routledge, 1995), cf. Chapters 3 ("Demonology of Zionism: International Dimension," pp. 30-45), 4 ("Zionism - 'The Greatest Evil on Earth'," pp. 46-59, and 9 ("Political Uses of the Demonology of Zionism," pp. 147-65). Baruch A. Hazan, Soviet Propaganda, a Case Study of the Middle East Conflict (Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1976). Joel Fishman, "The Cold-War Origins of Contemporary Antisemitic Terminology," Jerusalem Viewpoints, No. 517, Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, 2-16 May 2004, at: http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp517.htm See Jeane J. Kirkpatrick (U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. from 1981 to 1985), "How the PLO was legitimized," Commentary, July, 1989, pp. 21-28, http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030829_KirkpatrickPLO.pdf Daniel Patrick Moyniham, A Dangerous Place (New York: Little Brown & Co., 1978). See the detailed analyses by Kirkpatrick and Moyniham, cited just above. Compare Bernard Lewis, "The Anti-Zionist Resolution," Foreign Affairs (October 1976), reprinted as Chapter 28 of Lewis's From Babel to Dragomens: Interpreting the Middle East (London: Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 2004), pp. 274-83. Yohanan Manor, "The 1975 "Zionism Is Racism" Resolution: The Rise, Fall, and Resurgence of a Libel," May, 2010, No. 97 of Institute for Global Jewish Affairs Publications, at: http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=3670 (Manor documents the use in U.N. fora at this time of the "apartheid" analogy, and provides a breakdown of voting patterns on the resolution). Ben Cohen, "Boycotting Israel: The Ideological Foundations," September 2008, at: http://www.z-word.com/z-word-essays/boycotting-israel%253A-the-ideological-foundations.html Robbie Sabel, op.cit., p. 5. Also see Gil Troy, "Fighting Zionism: Racism's big lie," Jerusalem Post blog, November 10, 2010, http://blogs.jpost.com/content/fighting-zionism-racisms-big-lie&newsletter=101118 E.g., see the official declaration by the Fateh (PLO) movement in 1970, Fateh, "Towards a Democratic State in Palestine," reprinted in: Palestine: The Arab-Israeli Conflict, A Ramparts Press Reader, edited by Russell Stetler (San Francisco: Ramparts Press, 1972), pp. 205, 208. Also see Yehoshafat Harkabi, Arab Attitudes to Israel (London: Mitchell Vallentine, 1973), passim. Leon Hadar, "Two Peoples, Two States," January 19, 2010 issue of The American Conservative, at: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/jan/19/00012/; Hadar cites Edward Said, "The Only Alternative," reproduced March 03, 2001 on MediaMonitors.net - http://www.mediamonitors.net/edward9.html, where the "mass campaign" is urged, and an interview on October 28, 2002, with Diana Buttu, conducted by BitterLemons.org, entitled "Security for freedom," http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl281002ed39.html. However, according to Hadar, even a single Palestinian state would not end "apartheid" accusations by those predisposed to make them. Sobel, op. cit., p. 5 For a more detailed and legally grounded account see Anne Bayefsky, "The UN World Conference Against Racism: A Racist Anti-Racism Conference," American Society of International Law: Proceedings, vol. 96 (2002), pp. 65ff. Another such account is by Elihai Braun, "The UN World Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, Durban, South Africa (August 31-September 8, 2001)" at: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/durban1.html; "NGO Forum at Durban Conference 2001," at: http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngo_forum_at_durban_conference_. On Durban II, see "Analyzing the Durban II Conference: Interview with Gerald Steinberg," April, 2010, Institute for Global Jewish Affairs, at: http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=3446&TTL=Analyzing_the_Durban_II_Conference Anne F. Bayefsky, "Terrorism and Racism: The Aftermath of Durban," Post-Holocaust and Anti-Semitism, No. 468, 16 December 2001, Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, at: http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=2&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=442&PID=0&IID=1117&TTL=Terrorism_and_Racism:_The_Aftermath_of_Durban Bayefsky's thesis is supported by the analysis by Eli Karmon, "International Terror and Antisemitism - Two Modern Day Curses: Is there a Connection?" February 16, 2007, International Institute for Counter-Terrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/tabid/66/Articlsid/239/currentpage/7/Default.aspx http://www.voltairenet.org/article153536.html There, Barghouti also connects the BDS movement he leads with the "Right of Return" demand, according to which all Palestinians have a right to "return" and set up residence inside the State of Israel, which he makes clear would necessarily mean the end of the Jewish state and of Zionism. Ibid. Also see Barghouti's opinion piece in The Guardian of August 12, 2010, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/12/besieging-israel-siege-palestinian-boycott See criticisms of this delegitimization motivation by Ricki Hollander, "BDS, Academic/Cultural Boycott of Israel, and Omar Barghouti," February 24, 2010, http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=51&x_article=1803; Juda Engelmayer, "Palestinians Using Academics and Liberal Ideals to Promote an Extremist Agenda," at http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=12443&pageid=&pagename; and Chris Dyszyski, "True Colours of the BDS Movement," 12 August 2010, at: http://www.justjournalism.com/media-analysis/view/viewpoint-true-colours-of-the-bds-movement. Dore Gold, et al., "Have the Palestinians Abandoned a Negotiated Settlement?" Jerusalem Issue Brief, Vol. 1 no. 2, 6 September 2001, Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-2.ht Khaled Abu Toameh, "Kaddoumi: PLO Charter was Never Changed," Jerusalem Post, 23 April 2004 Khaled Abu Toameh, "'Fatah has never recognized Israel,'" Jerusalem Post, July 22, 2009, http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=149571 Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik, "Fatah Official: Our Goal has never been peace. Peace is a means: the goal is Palestine," July 12, 2009 http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=1032 Also see, for a historical overview, Efraim Karsh, "Who's Against a Two-State Solution?" Jewish Ideas Daily and Middle East Forum, July 20, 2010, http://www.meforum.org/2689/against_two_state_solution The PLO Ambassador to Lebanon, Abdullah Abdullah, has stated that the peace talks pursued by the Palestinian Authority also have delegitimization as their motivation and make use of the apartheid South African analogy to this end. According to an article in the Palestinian newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, of September 9, 2010: "The PLO's representative in Lebanon, Ambassador Abdullah Abdullah, emphasized yesterday that the Palestinian-Israeli negotiations, which have started in Washington, are not a goal, but rather another stage in the Palestinian struggle... He believes that Israel will not be dealt a knock-out defeat, but rather an accumulation of Palestinian achievements and struggles, as happened in South Africa, to isolate Israel, to tighten the noose on it, to threaten its legitimacy, and to present it as a rebellious, racist state." http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=3188 G. Steinberg and J. Edelstein, "Turning the tables on BDS," Jerusalem Post Op-Ed, November 6, 2010 at: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=194275 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tempered (talk • contribs) 03:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Tempered, thanks for your new version. I'm not sure however, how we're supposed to engage in a discussion concerning this since this is a long section with 60 footnotes. If other users have a total of, say, 25 objections to this text are we then to go through them one by one? To begin with, you have in the text the same old Buttu and Said documents, presented as supporting views that charging Israel with perpetrating apartheid would be motivated by "delegitimization". This is probably not the only issue I want to bring up concerning this, since I haven't read any of the other sources as of yet. You may like to consult WP:TLDR if engaging in discussion concerning this proposition proves difficult. --Dailycare (talk) 10:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Tempered, I can tell you took this task seriously. Some notes:

• As these critics point out, such accusations differ from ordinary criticisms of particular flaws, such as we find in and about any other country, by their essentializing and generalizing demonization of Israel and Zionism per se, to justify rejection and elimination of the Jewish state as such. "point out" assumes the truth of the rest of the statement, rather than attributing POV. This sentence could be rephrased to make clear it's an argument.
• The double standards are evidenced in a perfectionist invocation of universal principles demanded solely of Israel: it is said that they are used to condemn Israel alone amongst all nations for social practices and flaws similar to and no worse than those found in all countries including liberal democracies Again frame as an argument put forward by a set of sources. As a point of fact, Western antiracist activists intensely concerned with "practices and flaws" of their own countries are frequent users of the analogy.
• P.A. itself nor neighbouring states of the much worse racism and/or "apartheid"-like practices there This is not a self-evident statement, and must be bracketed with a phrase like "what they claim are much worse..."
• Two ambassadors... sentence is just fine. The followup has similar issues (non-attribution) to earlier sentences.
• In general, the Anne Bayefsky sentence is a good example of attributed POV specifically related to the analogy.

However, it seems you've veered deep, deep into essay-writing territory. This text amounts to a grand connection between Nazism, Islamism, Soviet Communism, Third World anticolonialism, and the accusation that Israel has racist, colonial, or apartheid practices. The point is to suggest that deluded and/or antisemitic views make this range of accusations. It may be fascinating to believe that, and it may contribute to Anti-Zionism#Anti-Zionism_and_antisemitism, but it doesn't clearly focus on the topic at hand.

Please, let people read about other issues on other pages, and reference those issues only when they are raised by critics of the analogy, and then by reference. To take one example, the "Nazism influenced Muslim antisemitism" argument does not come from anyone critiquing the analogy (footnotes 22-30). Ditto "Russian antisemitism of the Tsarist period". If the point is to say that, "Some analysts claim that the use by the USSR of the apartheid analogy is a product of a tradition of antisemitism," then just say that, and link to Antisemitism in the Soviet Union.--Carwil (talk) 14:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Carwil's sentiment here. You've put a lot of work in Tempered, but there are major issues of both style and substance. In terms of style this doesn't read in an encyclopedic fashion, rather it reads like a political essay that is attempting to convince readers of a thesis. As such, the writing style violates a number of Misplaced Pages policies such as WP:NOTSOAPBOX, WP:WORDS, and WP:NPOV. In terms of substance, as Carwil points out we must stick to sources directly relevant to the scope of the article. We must also present the content of sources in a manner that doesn't utilise original research or synthesis. Further, I would repeat my previous suggestion that given the wealth of academic reliable sources available on this subject we do not need to include advocacy sources that Misplaced Pages classes as questionable, as such sources are at the bottom of the hierarchy of preferred sources. I am, very slowly, attempting to put together a take on this subject. My draft will probably be much shorter, but I'll do my best to utilise material from your draft as appropriate. It's unlikely the two will resemble each other much, though. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I thought this proposed contribution would upset some editors, since it puts such strong arguments by critics of the apartheid analogy regarding the motivations behind the advocacy of such accusations, which is precisely what makes it suitable for the "motivations" subsection. I am not therefore at all surprised that the editors here find it unpalatable and are basically calling for deletion of the whole thing out of hand. But I am surprised at the weakness of the objections. I would suggest to the editors who want to attack the contribution that they might want first actually to read the cited sources, before characterizing them as written by "the bottom of the hierarchy of preferred sources," declaring them irrelevant or as tendentiously described with evident POV in my text. They will no doubt be dismayed, when they actually read the sources, to discover that my text reports accurately, fairly and objectively on the views presented therein. I don't need to add anything to the views in these sources: they speak for themselves quite effectively. The only objection of any substance, it seems to me, is the suggestion that I change one or two terms to indicate that this is what the sources say rather than to imply that this is the "truth," e.g., replacing "points out" with "argues," etc. I had actually tried to do that, but missed one or two sentences. So this suggested modification is a fair stylistic request and I have now done that.

Some specific responses: the number of sources authored by academic scholars, in the 60 footnotes here, is very large and well exceeds in percentage and number those in any comparable paragraphs accepted into the "proponents" of the apartheid analogy, in the main article. So complaints that there are not enough academic sources indicate that the notes and cited sources have simply not been read nor the authors' own expertise sought for or recognized. We do not want to apply double standards to the "critics of the apartheid analogy" section that we have not applied to the "proponents" section, of course. E.g., amongst academics teaching presently or formerly at universities, or published authors with Ph.D.s, are some of the authors of the Reut Institute report (footnote 1) and of the Ottowa Protocols (2), Mark Silverberg (4), Robbie Sabel (6), David Matas (7), Alan Dershowitz (8), Gerald Steinberg (10, 15, and many other citations), Michael Herzog (11), Leslie Susser (12), Barry Rubin (13), Gil Troy (15), Abraham H. Miller (17), etc. -- the picture should be clear. The roster of academics continues similarly through the citations. They include Leon Hadar, by the way. Many of the sources are book-length studies written by academics, unusually for this main article. Weighty works by leading political and diplomatic figures are also cited. Very few mere bloggers are cited. However, let us be clear: there is nothing wrong with presenting opinion pieces on such a topic which involves strong opinions. That, too, is part of the evidence of critics of the apartheid analogy, and is freely resorted to in the "proponents" sections.

As for the accusation that this is an essay rather than an encyclopedia article, may I respectfully point out that any encyclopedia will hopefully feature articles that have a beginning, middle and end, and that make a coherent and logical argument not wholly summed up in any one of the sources cited but which sum up scholarship on the given topics -- without being original research themselves. This, in fact, is what encyclopedias are supposed to do. They do not consist largely of monotonous one-liners reiterating the same thing over and over again: X said Israel is an apartheid state, Y said Israel is an apartheid state if ..., Z said Israel might become an apartheid state when ..., etc., etc., etc. That means that the present "Israel and the Apartheid Analogy" is a very substandard encyclopedia article; in fact, at present, it does not make the grade at all. Have a look especially at genuinely excellent encyclopedia history articles, or history of ideas articles, to see this. My proposed contribution presents a historical account of the evolution and context of the apartheid analogy terminology in regard to the Jewish state. As a result, it must survey a number of thematic streams and trace their development. It does this. There is no historical background given elsewhere in the article to the development and employment of the apartheid analogy; my contribution offers this. It is therefore a needed addition to the article.

What keeps it from being a "soapbox" is that it is properly researched and does indeed report as fairly as possible (and I am amenable to suggestions regarding style to maintain neutrality) on some major criticisms of the apartheid analogy, profusely citing impeccable sources. There is no need to strain the sources to make a point. They make the points all by themselves. My paragraphs merely report on what those critics have actually said.

Furthermore, all the sources cited are very relevant to the subject. Any fair-minded reader will discover this for him- or herself. Almost all, as a matter of fact, specifically bring the "apartheid" terminology into the discussion, so their relevance to this article must be granted even by the most carping critic. In the case of the Nazis, of course, there was no apartheid South Africa then to give specificity to the Nazi claim that Zionism was a radically inhumane, racist and oppressive ideology (or rather, the Nazis vehemently supported apartheid-minded racists in South Africa at the time), even though as the citations discuss the Nazi propaganda techniques and accusations were directly influential on the later Arab Zionism=racism propaganda and use of the apartheid analogy -- the cited sources explicitly argue this in detail. In the case of the Soviet Union, the anti-Zionism theme, with full racism tropes, often took the form of "apartheid" terminology and claims by the sixties, and from there became a heavy emphasis that influenced Muslim and Arab anti-Zionism, as the cited sources again argue in extensive detail. One needs only to read them to discover this. As for Muslim antisemitic use of the same themes and terms, the article cited by Wistrich gives full historical and contemporary context to the current Muslim/Arab campaign, and according to Ryan Paddy above "Lists the apartheid label as one means used by "Muslims" to delegitimise Israel." The later political use of the apartheid theme in the U.N., and in other international fora such as the "Anti-Racism" Durban conference, is all documented properly by the sources and described objectively in the text. As for the citation of Said and Buttu, that is succinct and perfectly neutral. They are not made to say anything that they did not say; in fact the reference is quite concise. Hadar is not discussed in the text, but is cited as the source: he did cite them to this effect, so that is objectively true. No further views are attributed either to Hadar or to Said and Buttu that they could possibly have repudiated. The Anne Beyefsky article actually says what is presented as its argument; there is no attributed POV in the text description. I hope that this covers the objections to date. Tempered (talk) 06:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

In terms of the use of poor sources in other parts of the article - I'm for removing such sources, especially where alternatives saying the same kind of thing are available. "Other parts of the article are crap" is not a good reason for adding more crap. In terms of the overall draft and our various points of disagreement about it, rather than trying to do some sort of point-by-point analysis of your draft, which would take us a long time, I think I'll try using it as a basis for a second draft and edit it down into what I think is an acceptable form, then we can discuss any differences you object to. This will also give me a closer familiarity with the sources with which to discuss them - because we've already found (with Hadar) that you read completely different things in sources than myself and some other editors. I will be removing all questionable and tangental sources from my version of the draft, and heavily redacting any wording that I find soapbox-like or problematic for style reasons. Ryan Paddy (talk) 18:51, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Your loaded language for the sources cited in my contribution, before you even look at them closely, betrays strong bias, Ryan Paddy. The sources are high quality, as I showed already -- you ignore that. And if you really object to "crap" sources employed by "proponents" in the main article, why have you not eliminated those sources or even challenged them specifically? However, let us proceed. I would also add to the first paragraph citations the very recent article by Dennis Macshane in the Jerusalem Post, "'Kauft nicht bei Juden' will worsen the conflict," 11.29.10, http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=197280. He highlights double standards and demonization in the apartheid analogy advocates, even says that invocation of apartheid accusations is per se delegitimization of Israel, indeed "it is hard to see how peace can be made with an Israel that so many seek to brand an 'apartheid state.'" Too right. Macshane, just to rub it in, is a non-Jewish secularist former British Labor MP who served as minister of state for Europe. Another "crap" source to add to the list.Tempered (talk) 23:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A quick look at the sources used shows that many of them are blogs and/or extremist sources. Are they really relevant? // Liftarn (talk)

It was a very quick look. There are no extremist sources, other than the cited Hitler source and the Palestinian ones. The comment on blogs has already been answered. Just to remind all the editors on this Talk page, very few of whom seem to have grasped this: there is no requirement that the sources and text must agree with their POV to be "relevant." The Misplaced Pages requirement is that they report fairly on positions held by responsible and representative sources. That is what is "relevant." Tempered (talk) 01:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

When everyone else is failing to "grasp" something you find obvious, you might just be wrong, which is the case here. Where possible, it's desirable to write Misplaced Pages articles using only heavily-cited reputable scholarly sources and reputable journalism. As we have some sources that may be of that sort available, there is no need for the rest. Op-eds, blogs, activist groups, etc. are (with some exceptions) somewhere between "less preferred" and "unacceptable" depending on quality and context. Your draft presents statements followed by long lists of sources of varying quality. It's undesirable to provide so many sources for statements, it's a disservice to the reader for us as editors not to control the quality and number of sources. Instead, we should choose a couple of the most reliable and appropriate sources for any given statement and just use those. Ryan Paddy (talk) 03:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Ryan Paddy, "everyone else" editing on this page is obviously to one degree or another a proponent of the apartheid analogy, which itself is a very marginal view in Western democracies, held only by a minority. There are none commenting on my contribution who are critical of the analogy. Naturally they object to the views expressed by critics of the apartheid analogy reported on in my contribution, and do not want a cogent presentation of those views to appear in the main article. I take that for granted. So do not get carried away with your majority, Ryan Paddy. It means very little. As for the quality of the sources, well, let us postpone the pro and con on that. But I am confident all my sources would be found acceptable if matters went to formal mediation. Let's hope that we can agree with what you come up with. Tempered (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

"Western democracies", of course, represent only a small minority of the world's population. And I don't think you are right about the reliability of the majority of your sources, either. RolandR (talk) 23:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The difference between Western democracies and other states, and the views held in them, is that the news and information in those other states is thoroughly controlled by authoritarian regimes unsympathetic to Western democracies per se, which of course includes Israel, so the monochromatic views of most people there cannot be taken as even remotely independent, objective or knowledgeable. A brief lesson for RolandR.Tempered (talk) 05:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

If there is an automatic bot operative on this page that archives sections that draw no additional postings after three weeks (as is generally the case here as elsewhere, I believe), I would like to suggest to the page manager/administrator that this section "New Version of Proposed Contribution" should be preserved from that archiving until discussion on this proposed contribution concludes with a consensus.Tempered (talk) 11:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Version 2

I'm making progress with a draft. I think it might be best to make paragraphs available as I go, to get an idea of whether it's worth continuing, because running quality control on Tempered's draft (especially the sources) is very time-consuming and I don't want to waste my time if this is going nowhere.

Some critics of the apartheid analogy state that it is intended to delegitimize and demonize Israel and Zionism, applying a higher standard of behaviour to the Jewish state than to other nations or to the Palestinian Authority in order to justify the boycotting, ostracism, or elimination of the State of Israel. Philosopher Bernard Harrison describes the apartheid label as "hyperbolic". He states that while there are reasonable grounds to criticize Israel for the establishment of settlements in the West Bank, or for the treatment of Christians and Muslim Arabs in Israel as "second class citizens", the apartheid comparison is a politically-motivated exaggeration of the situation in Israel intended to undermine its moral basis for existence. Historian Robert Wistrich has argued that the apartheid analogy and other claims of crimes against humanity by Israel are continuations of the historical vilification of Jews using accusations such as deicide, blood libel, and various Jewish conspiracies. He states that the apartheid label is similar propaganda to that used by Nazi Germany, except that it has now been taken up by the Muslim world.

This paragraph incorporates content and sources from the first four paragraphs of Tempered's version, I haven't gotten to the rest yet. I don't make any claim that this draft is perfect, but I think it's an improvement in terms of a more encyclopedic style, keeping the content on topic, and avoiding original research. Ryan Paddy (talk) 23:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The force of the characterization of the logic of the use of the apartheid analogy in my version might be revisited. I do think that a few more of the best sources that I already cited for this opening sentence should be added. The phrasing about applying universal standards perfectionistically only to Israel is worth retaining: it highlights the double standards issue very clearly as being basic to the entire discussion, although your phrasing can be taken to imply this too. But anyway, the suggested phrasing also signifies that normal criticism is not the issue. Harrison himself makes the same point about perfectionism and the double standards difference between that and normal criticism. Furthermore, the reference to Harrison omits that the entire focus of his book is on the incoherent logic behind "apartheid" and similar charges, when scrutinized by an analytical philosopher. Is that not a worthy essential point to include? Otherwise his specific contribution is misunderstood and loses much of its weight. Also, how about a less "truth"-oriented phrasing, "may be," as in "He states that while there may be reasonable grounds for criticizing ..."? And perhaps a "among others" can be added as follows: "Historian Robert Wistrich, among others, has argued ..." (and then citing some of those others, at least in the notes, as given in my draft -- it is not just a view of Wistrich's, but has even more weight since it is also maintained by other experts in the field as my citations indicate). Otherwise, the proposed version seems OK, although I withhold final judgement until we see the whole thing. But this does begin to look possible.Tempered (talk) 05:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll consider your suggestions while I continue working on the draft. I think we're coming from the same place in seeing "delegitimisation" as a significant perspective on the apartheid label that should be presented in the article, per NPOV, and if we keep that common ground in mind we'll be okay. My text is likely to be less promotional and flamboyant about this perspective than you might prefer. However, I take this approach because that's how Misplaced Pages is written, not because I'm trying to suppress the perspective, so please do assume good faith if we disagree on some wording. It's my opinion that the text will actually be more compelling in its presentation of the sources if it's neutral in its tone rather than promotional. This is an encyclopedia, not an opinionated scholarly article, so readers don't want it to sound like it's trying to convince them of something. Regardless of whether we reach agreement on exact wording, once we have agreement on the broad thrust of the text and there's a consensus for its inclusion in the article, finer details of wording and citation can be worked out via the usual wiki editing process. Ryan Paddy (talk) 07:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

On "delegitimation", editors may be interested in an article, For Israel, 'delegitimization' is becoming an excuse by Akiva Eldar in Haaretz last week: "A look at the "guidebook" the Ministry of Public Diplomacy and Diaspora Affairs is offering Israelis at the exit gates from the country reinforces the suspicion that the inflation in the expression "delegitimization" (formerly called "anti-Semitism" ) is not a random lexical construction.... Israel is basking in the light of the delegitimization. It will not allow the inexhaustible tin of olive oil to be defiled by any hint of legitimization. It is much easier to give the world the finger when the whole of it is against you. If we say "delegitimization" enough times the public will believe there is no connection between what the gentiles say and what the Jews do." RolandR (talk) 19:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Liberal democracy is alive and well in Israel, as just such rhetoric by Eldar in an Israeli newspaper, many of whose writers are extremist anti-Zionists, proves. Nothing comparable to it would be permitted in any Arab state, nor in the media of the P.A. either: it would be seen as dishonorable or even treasonous and the author would have a difficult time, shall we say. However, Eldar's argument cannot be taken seriously. It appears to be yet another version of the militantly anti-Zionist view that Israel and its friends have no right to defend it, in this case even just verbally in open debate, against its enemies. Any defense at all is supposedly per se sinister, immoral and arrogantly inhuman. Eldar thus contributes to the delegitimization of Israel. In fact, this provides an opportunity to add a few more important sources to our proposed contribution criticising delegitimization and demonization of Israel, this time statements by non-Israeli world leaders pointing out the serious dangers to the whole of Western society of such hate-incitement against Israel. I propose that this theme of the danger to Western society generally and to its fundamental values needs a separate mention and even paragraph in the revised contribution:

José Maria Aznar, Prime Minister of Spain between 1996 and 2004, asserted that "If Israel Goes Down, We All Go Down," as the title of his opinion piece in the London Times of June 17, 2010 put it. Israel, he said, is in the West's front line against extremism. He wrote: "For Western countries to side with those who question Israel’s legitimacy, for them to play games in international bodies with Israel’s vital security issues, for them to appease those who oppose Western values rather than robustly to stand up in defence of those values, is not only a grave moral mistake, but a strategic error of the first magnitude.

 Israel is a fundamental part of the West. The West is what it is thanks to its Judeo-Christian roots. If the Jewish element of those roots is upturned and Israel is lost, then we are lost too. Whether we like it or not, our fate is inextricably intertwined." See: http://www.friendsofisraelinitiative.org/article.php?c=48

Marcello Pera, President of the Italian Parliament from 2001 to 2006, put particular stress on this centrality in Judaism of human rights, making it the source and "Forefather" of Western values of human rights and democracy generally, so it is actually this heritage itself, and the future of liberal Western culture, that is being challenged by those apologists of fanaticism and authoritarianism or totalitarianism who delegitimize and deny the liberal democracy of Israel and who seek to legitimize hate-incitement and terrorist atrocies against it instead. "(A)ttacking Israel is tantamont to attacking Europe and the West." See: Marcello Pera's speech to the British Parliament, "Israel, our Forefather," available at: http://www.friendsofisraelinitiative.org/article.php?c=63

Aznar, Pera, former Irish Prime Minister and Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble, former Czech President Vaclav Havel, former President of Peru Alejandro Toledo, and other world leaders have therefore created a coalition of Western politicians and powerful figures, almost all non-Jewish, entitled "Friends of Israel Initiative," to fight this defamation of Israel, as part of a fight for the preservation of the values of Western civilization itself. On this, see the Aznar citation above.

Another such group, made up of parliamentarians from over 50 countries, including all Western democracies, has also recently formed to fight what they have termed the antisemitic defamation of Israel. On this Interparliamentary Coalition for Combatting Antisemitism, see footnote 3 in the recently revised contribution above.

In his inaugural address to that Interparliamentary Conference in Ottowa this past November, Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada, said: "(H)istory shows us, and the ideology of the anti-Israeli mob tells us all too well if we listen to it, that those who threaten the existence of the Jewish people are a threat to all of us. ... We have a solemn duty to defend the vulnerable, to challenge the aggressor, to protect and promote human rights, human dignity, at home and abroad. None of us really knows whether we would choose to do good, in the extreme circumstances of the Righteous. But we do know there are those today who would choose to do evil, if they are so permitted. Thus, we must use our freedom now, and confront them and their anti-Semitism at every turn." The speech is at: http://www.cjc.ca/2010/11/09/statement-by-the-prime-minister-of-canada-on-the-ottawa-conference-on-combating-anti-semitism/

Another recent statement by a major Western political leader critical of the delegitimizing and demonizing of Israel, is Tony Blair's "Delegitimization of Israel is affront to humanity," at http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=185860.

There are many more such statements, e.g., by American politicians, Australian political leaders, European and elsewhere, but these will do.Tempered (talk) 07:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see Akiva Eldar, or the people Tempered cites, making references to apartheid. --Dailycare (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

As the proposed contribution itself indicates, citing many sources, and as logic and the "apartheid" terminology itself shows, the "apartheid" analogy consists precisely of the accusation that the state is as such based on an "illegal," "criminal" and "racist" structure, thus is an outlaw regime and illegitimate. So the delegitimizing referred to by all the above parties necessarily includes the "apartheid" accusation, just as it includes the "Nazi" analogy, the "racist" analogy, the "colonialist" analogy, etc. All these are self-admittedly attempts to erase the moral and legal justification for the Jewish state. Moreover, as the contribution again shows, the anti-apartheid campaign against Israel has been used precisely by those groups who deny the legitimacy of the Jewish state, just as its original model was explicitly aimed at attacking the legitimacy of the South African state. "Apartheid" advocates even state explicitly that just as the South African regime was overthrown by the anti-apartheid campaign, so too they want to work toward the overthrow of the Zionist state -- and replace it with something else. This is, to take only one example of the several given in the proposed contribution, the explicit goal of the BDS campaign, as described by its global coordinator, Omar Barghouti. It is noteworthy that the Jewish state is the only state to be subject to such a campaign; if the apartheid analogy proponents used it against other states too, about which no delegitimization could be implied, then it would be easier to disclaim (against the open logic and context of the terminology) a delegitimizing motivation in the case of Israel. But they do not. So reference to these statements against delegitimizing Israel can be cited in this connection.Tempered (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe the state of this discussion is that RP is working on a text proposal. Let's discuss the text proposal once we see it, and keep these ruminations on other fora. --Dailycare (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It looks like there will be a period of perhaps a couple of weeks when there will be few posts here, due to the usual seasonal and end-of-year activities. I will certainly be away for a few days myself. However, I will try to keep an eye on this space.Tempered (talk) 11:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Egyptian foreign minister

The Egyptian FM made some interesting comments here about Israel and apartheid, but I'm not sure if/how they should be included in the article. I don't think we have senior Egyptians represented yet. --Dailycare (talk) 22:01, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

POV

It seems as though this article is little more than a very biased POV piece that attempts to portray Israel in a negative light. Perhaps this ought to be merged with Criticism of Israel to achieve a more balanced perspective, as this article on its own violates Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Though evidently there is substantial backing behind this analogy, its applicability still contested, and therefore should be treated as such. Arielkoiman (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

This has been proposed several times in the past in an attempt to bury the article, but has thankfully never garnered much consensus. This is pretty much dead on arrival; many prominent people have made the comparisons for Israeli actions to that of South African apartheid, it is a valid topic that deserves treatment in an encyclopedia. Tarc (talk) 23:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if it can be found valid - it is, after all, a matter of opinion. You don't see people writing their personal manifestos on Misplaced Pages, and unfortunately, this is precisely what the article does. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the content of this article, it is pretty much an undeniable fact that it's in violation of NPOV. Arielkoiman (talk) 03:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, it isn't; you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what NPOV is and what the purpose is of an encyclopedia. Just because the Misplaced Pages has an article regarding the apartheid analogy does not mean that it is necessarily true. Read the top part of WP:V there, which is "verifiability, not truth". Tarc (talk) 03:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I suppose you're right. The article does abide by non-judgmental language, being very objective about the criticisms presented herein. A long tirade, although properly constructed. Arielkoiman (talk) 10:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

You might say the article is a description of some well-sourced tirades (both for and against the apartheid label), as opposed to the article being a tirade itself. Ryan Paddy (talk) 04:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I've just heard enough tirades on the matter to be concerned when I learned of a full-on article about it. Arielkoiman (talk) 10:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the merge tag. The topic clearly merits its own article, per WP:NOTABLE, and is too long to be merged into Criticism of Israel anyway. There is no basis in policy for suggesting the merge. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:09, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Sources

@ Petri Krohn - your comment in the explanation as to why you removed my tags is quite uncivil. I am a registered editor, and your suggestion that I approach Misplaced Pages content in the same way people approach fast-food is not acceptable.

Removal of a tag tat requires third-party sources is justified considering numerous sources that would seem to me to be unacceptable based on Misplaced Pages policy.

On the other hand there is nothing in Misplaced Pages policy that says quality = quantity. Even if there are 3,000 references in an article, they can be challenged at any time, and the subject of this article is so tendentious as to warrant their assessment very carefully.

While you removed the request for third-party reliable sources, you also removed to other tags, {who} and {cn} in the intro. This was based on the following observation.

The article introduction states: "The State of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has been compared by United Nations investigators, human rights groups and critics of Israeli policy to South Africa's treatment of non-whites during its apartheid era."

Of the three categories who are said to have made this comparison, neither the United Nations investigators, nor the human rights groups are mentioned anywhere in the article.

Given the duration the discussion over this article has been taking place, if no support for this statement has been located, these groups should be deleted from the introduction. However, because I follow the Misplaced Pages policy, I added tags before deleting in good faith that the references fro these comparisons will be provided.

I would therefore ask you to restore the tags until such time as they are removed for the right reasons, or I will ask an uninvolved administrator to do so. Thank you Koakhtzvigad (talk) 09:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

UN investigators (Falk and Dugard), as well as HRGs (B'Tselem and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel) have been named in the article. --Dailycare (talk) 10:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Basis for this article

The basis for this article is the accusation that Israel is conducting a policy of apartheid.

The definition of apartheid has been supplied as: "The 'crime of apartheid' means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

The article has to address itself to the formulation of this definition, and not 'fish' for 'evidence'.

That is:

• 1. Are there institutions in Israel that target any races, systematically in an oppressive or domineering way?

• 2. Are any claims made in accusing Israel backed up by data that shows systematic oppression and domination?

• 3. Is oppression and domination racially based?

• 4. Is there an institutionalised intention to maintain this oppression and domination?

I am unable to at this time address points 1,2, and 4, but point 3 was addressed earlier here

It seems that Jews are not a recognised race! The fact is that there are lots of non-white Jews in Israel, including a few Arab converts.

Moreover, Palestinians are not classified as a race either! Not only that, but there are Arab citizens of Israel, so clearly there is no institutionalised apartheid since in South Africa non-whites were denied citizenship.

It seems to me that there is little point in having an article that can not support the basis on which it was written Koakhtzvigad (talk) 09:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

For example:

Sudan - News: July 19, 2004 - Headline: Human Rights Group Charges Systematic Rapes In Darfur. Excerpt: An international human-rights organization says Sudanese soldiers and government-sponsored militia operating in the war-torn Darfur region are responsible for systematic rape of women to spread terror among the population. Koakhtzvigad (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, while you are right, the article exists as a neutral presentation of the topic. While I also find the accusation completely absurd, it merits mention not because it is necessarily legitimate, but its ubiquity among Israel critics. If you wish, feel free to add your commentary under the criticism of this analogy. You should, however, cite a source, and write "so-and-so said this about the analogy...". Arielkoiman (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Legal basis for the article

The legal basis for the article are:

a. Murder;

b. Extermination;

c. Enslavement;

d. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

e. Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

f. Torture

g. Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, compulsory sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

h. Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

i. Forced disappearance of persons;

j. The crime of apartheid;

k. Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health

I should add that they have to be seen in the context of the definition of the crime, i.e. "The 'crime of apartheid' means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." to count as a 'crime against humanity', and therefore have to be comparable to other such crimes

Other than the case of South Africa, there is no evident comparative data in the article other than item j., but the definition for this item does not match data as presented Koakhtzvigad (talk) 09:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The definition of item j. apartheid based on the South African case (from South Africa under apartheid) is:

• apartheid as an official policy
• was introduced following the general election of 1948, i.e. supported by at least a 'power' minority
• New legislation classified inhabitants into racial groups ("black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian"),
• New legislation classified ] inhabitants into racial groups ("black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian"),
• residential areas were segregated, sometimes by means of forced removals.
• residential areas were segregated, sometimes by means of forced removals.
• From 1958, black people were deprived of their citizenship,

I hope the article can address itself comparatively to justify its inclusion in Misplaced Pages Koakhtzvigad (talk) 10:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm finding your posts very hard to make sense of. Our articles are based on what reliable sources say. Do you have any sources to propose here? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The article is about the accusations made, accusations which are notable and have received significant overage in reliable sources. It seems that you confuse existence of the article with advocacy for the article's premise. As verifiability, not truth is one of the core policies of the Misplaced Pages, nothing could be further from the truth. Tarc (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Lead

The lead, and most especially the opening sentences, should be brief and simply worded. This edit is neither. It both unnecessary and undesirable to enumerate some supposed precise number of sources that have made a given statement that the article is about. It's unnecessary because the reader can see for themselves, in due course of reading the article, exactly how many and what type of sources a statement has been made by. It is undesirable, because all such statements would have to be preceded by "at least..." for accuracy, as we don't know exactly how many such sources exist - we only know how many are currently listed in the article. Please also note that the word "investigators" was agreed on after a involved discussion on this talk page, where consensus was reached that this term accurately describes both the Special Rapporteurs and other UN sources. In terms of the bad linking that I reverted, common English words don't need to be linked (it's overlinking) and links that say something that doesn't need to be linked (e.g. "Israeli policy") and then link to something other than the linked word (e.g. Israeli-occupied territories) are doubly awful practice. Also, editors should note that this article has WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period) in place. Ryan Paddy (talk) 01:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

What does your action to revert my editing have to do with the content itself that you need to mention it?

I agree of course that overlinking to articles which discuss common English words is unnecessary. But in the case of this subject, the readers may come from at least three different non-English speaking background societies, and their conception of the seemingly common English word may be different in their cultural context than yours. Cultural awareness would suggest this is a good practice in English Misplaced Pages, which is often used by non-English speakers.

The entire purpose of hypertextual linking is to create conceptual networks that accurately relate information about a subject, the core purpose for any encyclopedia. I would therefore suggest that my linking was appropriate since not everyone would be aware of the suggested effects of Israel's policy, or criticism of Israel, and this awareness is essential for understanding the content found in the article. In removing them you are denying the reader access to this information that needs to be made available at earliest opportunity.

It doesn't really matter if there was a consensus established on adding the investigative function to the particular role. It doesn't change the fact that this function is not authorised by the employer of the Special Rapporteur, the United Nations. This roles is clearly described under "Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council" Code of conduct. If Misplaced Pages editorial consensus had this authority to change role descriptions, imagine what can be done with describing the roles of directors of corporations, ministers of governments, of corporate board members, etc. Where an external authority exists that has defined something, in this case the United Nations Organisation, for itself, Wikiepedia is simply misinforming the reader by attributing general tasks, or functions, and responsibilities of a position it lacks.

The subject of the article is a very onerous one in that it seeks to draw an analogy between a recognised democratic society and its elected representatives, and that of 1960s and 70s South African society which was not democratic. In doing so it undermines the very basis on which the Israeli society is founded. It seems to me that the volume of sources from which such parallels are drawn is important because this analogy is either accepted by the Israeli and international societies, or it is not. Please note that both Special Rapporteurs were professional detractors of Israel before their appointment to the role, and therefore hardly qualify as sources of independent international opinion.

As for the two, and only two Israeli human rights groups, although there are many more such groups in Israel, I would make a case to you that such beliefs held about one's own society can be explained in terms of both social and individual psychology of a minority in any population, commonly described as being too close to the problem, and thus lacking objectivity.

However, in terms of data for assessing validity of the claims, measuring volume of such clams is a valid method of analysis that a reader may not realise due to how this is presented in the article. Koakhtzvigad (talk) 04:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

TL;DR. Please try to be more concise and to-the-point.

It would also help if you familiarize yourself with the guidance in WP:LEDE. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:32, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

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