Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:57, 11 January 2011

Read this before proposing new or expanded criteria Shortcut WP:NEWCSD Contributors frequently propose new (or expansions of existing) criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria require careful wording, and in particular, need to be Objective: Most reasonable people should be able to agree whether a page meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific. Uncontestable: It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to consensus. CSD criteria should cover only situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Remember that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect, unless you word it carefully. Frequent: Speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion and Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion. These processes are more discriminating because they treat articles case-by-case, and involve many points of view; CSD sacrifices these advantages in favor of speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it with one of the other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids instruction creep. Nonredundant: If the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should be proposed only to cover situations that cannot be speedily deleted otherwise. If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page. this header: view • edit

A7 criteria

I have come across a few articles that admins have refused speedy deletion on the latest being David Rossiter which has since been speedy deleted. The admin stated that the article made ...a credible assertion of importance or significance, sufficient to pass A7. A cursory glance at what was stated in the article along with the sources would have shown that it was BS. So if I create an article about myself and claim for example that I was a number 1 selling musician or the first in some field making me notable with no sources to back this up, then is this enough to pass this criteria? Mo ainm~Talk 10:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, unless it's blatantly non-credible. First published Inuit hip-hop artist? Credible. First woman to sail around the moon? Not so much. Thparkth (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Good examples. :-) And the latter would probably be a G3 rather than an A7. Regards SoWhy 13:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who declined this A7, which has subsequently been deleted as a Hoax. Obviously if someone had checked for sources and tagged it as a hoax then my declining the speedy would be troutworthy in the extreme. But in my understanding there is no obligation to search for potential sources when correcting a deletion tag. I gave a cursory glance at the article, it was unsourced and made what to me was a credible assertion of importance. So I replaced the tag with a BLP prod as it was an unsourced new BLP that clearly asserted not just importance but notability. If someone who knew the subject or had tried to source it tags it with G3 that is ideal, but I consider my BLPprod tag was correct and A7 was an incorrect tag. We deliberately set the speedy deletion criteria to err on the side of caution, so that contentious and borderline deletions should be by prod or AFD. This means that many articles which are incorrectly tagged for speedy deletion will subsequently be deleted at AFD or after someone has tried to source them and found them to be puffed up, or in this case a fake. To my mind the best answer for that is to try and get more of our taggers to slow down and try and source articles. ϢereSpielChequers 14:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Forgot about this thread, I wasn't getting at you WereSpielChequers I was just looking for clarification. So if it is unsourced but a claim is made what do you do then? Mo ainm~Talk 23:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd say it depends on the claim. For example, someone just created an article about an obvious nobody, with the words "won the nobel prize" in it. This is obviously false, so I just flagged it a7/g3. But if you read a claim like "is the top band in Brazil" and you google it but don't get any results, I often post the A7 tag with text above it (and a comment) that says something like "this google result shows the claims are untrue." — Timneu22 · talk 23:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

This would be which CSD reason?

HOW I TAUGHT MY GRANDMOTHER TO READ AND OTHER STORIES

THIS IS THE FIRST BOOK OF SUDHA NARAYANA FOR CHILDREN.IN IT SHE REFERS TO HER PREVIOUS EXPERIENCES THAT CHANGED HER LIFE.IN THEM WE COME ACROSS MANY INCIDENTS OF HER LIFE LIKE HOW SHE TAUGHT HER ILLITERATE GRANDMOTHER TO READ AND HOW A SMALL COMPANY WITH A MEAGRE CAPITAL OF Rs10,000 GREW UP TO BE INFOSYS.WE ALSO COME ACROSS MERE BEDTIME STORIES WHICH HAVE A LOT OF MORAL IN THEM.SHE ALSO TELLS OF HOW PEOPLE LIKE JRD TATA CHANGED HER LIFE

— Timneu22 · talk 14:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a speedy candidate. It's a poorly written article about a book which is not obviously notable, but none of that's a reason for speedy deletion. Algebraist 14:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

This is obviously a case for speedy userfication. There are so many things wrong with this article, it does not belong in the main namespace. — Timneu22 · talk 14:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd say this is a borderline G11. Otherwise, if you can't find an article on the author, just prod it as a non-notable book. Prods and AfD's are also for stuff that doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. -- Blanchardb -- timed 14:27, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I know, but as we've had this conversation a bazillion times, PROD often fails (author will just remove it) and AfD, in a case like this, is a waste of people's time. Speedy userfication in a case like this is the best of all worlds. It doesn't BITE the newbie, it would explain to the newbie why the article is in poor condition without eliminating the content, and it removes the obvious nonsense from the main namespace. — Timneu22 · talk 14:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Userfication is fine where the "article" is really an autobiography and can become a userpage. I've also used it to turn testpages into sandboxes. But I'm uncomfortable using it for potential articles, especially BLPs and ones that should actually be deleted. In my view the place to develop and improve articles is in mainspace where they can be categorised and multiple editors can work on them. That said I've heard of at least one wiki that has "SHOUTING" as a deletion reason, and while I don't think we should implement that here, I can see the temptation. As for the broader question, CSD is for a limited number of clear cases which can short-circuit the normal deletion process, most articles that merit deletion do qualify for one or other speedy deletion tags. But an article can be pretty obviously heading for deletion and yet not qualify for speedy deletion. If someone can identify a frequently occurring, clearly definable group of of obvious deletions then we could introduce a new CSD type. ϢereSpielChequers 14:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

IF ANYTHING THAT TITLE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED BECAUSE IT DOES SEEM LIKE SHOUTING! Maybe we need speedy inubation, then? That's the area for improving these types of articles, right? — Timneu22 · talk 15:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I frequently move articles to correct capitalisation issues. Even if you believe something merits deletion there is no harm and much good faith in improving it even if at the same time you are tagging it for deletion. As for incubation, I see that as having similar drawbacks to userfication. The advantage of a wiki is collaborative editing and we only really get that in mainspace. ϢereSpielChequers 15:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I see. I guess my goal is to keep the main namespace as professional as possible. As for a CSD for this, I don't think it's possible unless you'd want to have a CSD that is an and-or kind of thing... "if an article meets any 6 of these 10 criteria...". I do see plenty of articles that fail just about everything, but don't fall neatly into a CSD. — Timneu22 · talk 15:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Fram has now redirected it from How I Taught My Grandmother to Read and other Stories) to the article on the author, Sudha Murthy. Just conceivably the individual books are notable, but the obvious first step would be to expand the discussion of them in that article. After all, there are , alternative to deletion, such as this. I would have done the same: first check if the author has an article, and then make the redirect. I possibly would have merged some of the material as a start on expansion, but anyone can do that as it has not been deleted. DGG ( talk ) 00:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• It's one of the things that first irritated me about Misplaced Pages--not everything that's clearly not appropriate for the encyclopedia is speedyable. It's one of those pesky things like "due process" in criminal proceedings. It gets in the way a lot of the time, but it's there to prevent people from being railroaded. There should always be a set of "clearly junk" articles that don't meet the speedy criteria, just to make sure the speedy criteria aren't applied in a manner that trashes good content. Jclemens (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Is that a vote in favor of my "6 out of 10 criteria" suggestion? — Timneu22 · talk 01:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Unless you list your ten criteria it isn't really a proposal, but I'd be surprised if that approach either met the simplicity requirement for speedy deletion or would involve enough articles to be worthwhile. ϢereSpielChequers 01:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
      • It's not something I've put much thought into. But it's a shame when everyone on here says "yeah, not encyclopedic", yet we're all handcuffed by the guidelines to permit the article's existence. If an article met a number of WP:NOT reasons, for example... — Timneu22 · talk 13:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
        • Ah but just because there is no applicable Speedy deletion criteria does not mean we are permitting an article's existence. Remember our primary deletion process is AFD not CSD, even if in practice there are more CSD deletions than AFD ones. If you think an article merits deletion but there is no relevant CSD criteria then Prod or AFD it. If you can formulate a clear simple test that would identify another significant group of articles that would always get deleted at AFD, then feel free to propose it here as a potential new CSD code. ϢereSpielChequers 17:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Exactly. If you can propose a new criterion that meets the requirements at the top of this page, by all means go ahead and do so. Coming here and bitching about every article yo find that can't be speedy deleted isn't going to accomplish anything. I'm quite certain this has been explained to you many times already. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Beeble, I wasn't bitching about anything. Retract your comment. "About every article I find" is just bullshit. Retract your comment immediately. — Timneu22 · talk 21:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Nope. How many times have you started a thread here about some article or other yu think you should be speedy deleted but can't be? How many months has this been going on? What has it accomplished? I stand by every word of that remark. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• The fuck you do. I make a few hundred patrols per week, and you said "every article I find." This is a lie, and I expect you to retract it. Further, we were having a pleasant conversation here, and my initial question was to see which speedy should apply to an article. After being told "none", I said, "well this seems like another good indicator for speedy userfication", and the conversation commenced. You just jumped in this thread to make inaccurate claims about my abilities as an editor. It's all false, false, false. You should be ashamed. — Timneu22 · talk 23:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• (ec) It seems like there are a lot more admins deleting tagged pages than there are people actually patrolling and tagging them (see the section started at the bottom). It's easy enough for the admin corps to handle the pages that are already tagged for CSD/PROD/AfD, but someone actually has to tag them; we have to make the decision what to do with it before the admins ever get there. Not to mention that given how few of us are actually out tagging things, it's a much bigger burden on us to monitor PRODs and set up/monitor AfDs. Whereas admins basically have to worry about it at the end of the 7 days, we get the pleasure of having to monitor all of them for the entire 7 days, even though it's a foregone conclusion. Timneu22 and I have both given suggestions before (A11, speedy userfication); in fact, Timneu22 mentioned speedy userfication already. Perhaps we should revive one or both of those discussions; implementing either one would significantly help. Yeah, I have to say it's annoying that we're mostly met with hand-wringing, but Timneu22 and I have now both suggested something. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Ok Tim, whatever, you don't start a thread on every single article you see, it's just a figure of speech (as I would have thought was obvious) but fine I'll grant you that point. I have not attacked your abilities as an editor, I have questioned the wisdom of repeatedly complaining here about not being able to speedy delete certain things, and i continue to stand by that assertion. Anyway, what is so hard about watchlisting something for a week? I PROD or AFD something pretty much every week in addition to preforming dozens if not hundreds of admin actions, monitoring oversight emails at OTRS, working on the backlog of several thousand uncategorized articles, watching pages at Commons, currently drafting a Wikimania bid for 2012 on Meta, just started editing on Simple, and I have a job in the real world on top of that. If it's too much trouble for you to monitor a deletion nom then I suggest you stop working in deletion related areas. The suggestions you have made in the past did not gain support from the community, so what is up with blaming the admin corps for being unwilling to ignore consensus? That is exactly what we are supposed to do, and we don't get paid any more than you do for our trouble so I don't really appreciate the admin-bashing tone of this conversation. Show me where an article wasn't deleted that does in fact fall within one of the criteria and then you've got a valid complaint. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm just pointing out that PROD and AfD are two very different tasks for those with and without admin tools. If I didn't like doing this, I wouldn't; the problem is, we have a paucity of people doing what Timneu22 and I specialize in, and it can be frustrating at times. Shit happens. I don't have time to dig through and find everything, but one example that comes to mind is Hangry, which was a neologism sourced to a local website and Urbandictionary.com that got dragged through AfD. What I was trying to say above (although it obviously wasn't clear) wasn't that it's too difficult, it's that we're trying to streamline it. But again, I've suggested we revive a discussion; if you don't want to, just say as much. And while I can't speak for Timneu22, what makes it hard for me to watchlist things for a week is that I have PDD-NOS, which among many other things severely hampers my organizational abilities; when I have tried to use it, I get so incredibly frustrated trying to keep it in order that I've decided it's not worth the emotional toll (which sounds funny until you see it for yourself), so I try to operate completely by memory. It usually works, as my memory is extremely good, but it's not perfect. That's why I'd like to streamline it; it's not monitoring everything that gets me frustrated (see straw man), just this one group of articles that have foregone conclusions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, here's a gem I just came across; Lipocurean. I know Spanish Misplaced Pages's A3 is "articles consisting solely of OR"; that's essentially what this is. Does that seem feasible? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)That got IAR deleted; perhaps we should create said criteria to avoid that, if you're interested in working within consensus.

Could one guarantee though that it was only original research. Just thinking - I could write an article that looked exactly like it was only OR, but where there is actually a notable, if obscure, topic and sources that academics (or geeks, or dentists or something) would be aware of. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:00, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

R3

R3 is currently for recently created implausible redirects. Why is it important that they are recently created? The redirect may have been created a few years ago but never deleted. If it has no links, what difference does its age make? McLerristarr | Mclay1 13:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Because when discussing redirects, WP:ITSUSEFULL is a valid argument. As such, any redirect that survived a long period of time was most likely noticed by some editor and they decided that it's a useful redirect (by not nominating it under R3). But if even one person finds a redirect useful (which we have to assume after all that time), we should not delete it without discussion. Regards SoWhy 14:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec) The whatlinkshere tool is useful for judging how useful a redirect is. If those incoming links are removed, there's no way to determine if it was linked to and considered a worthwhile redirect in the past. That's less of a concern with a newly created redirect of course. Other possibilities are here. –Whitehorse1 14:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It depends what namespace it's in however. In the main namespace, I agree, but in other namespaces, people often don't bother cleaning up redirects. The redirect that sparked this question was in the category namespace. Very few people will have ever seen that page but no one bothered to nominate it for deletion. I fail to see how its age, which has nothing to do with its usefulness (in this specific case), makes it any different to other implausible redirects cased by moves (except it wasn't exactly moved since it's a category – all the members were moved). I still think R3 should be for any age redirects, at least for non-mainspace pages. Editors just need to apply common sense before nominating things. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

As explained above, the older the redirect, the far likelier it is that someone found it useful. You can guess that they didn't but uncertainties are nothing that should be handled with speedy deletion. If it was around for years, there is no harm in keeping it for 7 more days at RFD and it's really not that much work to start a RFD, is it? And of course, we don't have to worry about storage space or about numbers, so why (speedy) delete them at all? Unless they present a problem, there really is no point and if they do, you can explain it at RFD. Regards SoWhy 15:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

When we say that a redirect "has no links", we mean that it's not being used as an internal link on the English Misplaced Pages. The older the redirect is, the more likely it is that someone has bookmarked it or is otherwise using it off-wiki—something we can't easily test for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

How can we encourage more NPPers?

There are thousands of unpatrolled pages dating back to November 24. After a month, new pages are automatically marked as patrolled, and this makes it quite likely that articles will slip through the cracks. How can we encourage more people to be NPPers? — Timneu22 · talk 16:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't know how to encourage editors to join in. But posting the link makes it easier for readers of you message to drop in a do a few. Also, if this is a problem, should the 30 days be changed to 60 days? Vegaswikian (talk) 23:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And in addition to those, there are the Article Wizard creations from January 2010 articles that need looking at. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it would help to stick Special:NewPages in right above or below Special:RecentChanges on the sidebar. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, these pages aren't marked as patrolled after 30 days, but that they simply fall off Special:Newpages. Kudpung and WereSpielChequers are having a similar conversation at Misplaced Pages talk:New pages patrol, if anyone is interested.  -- Lear's Fool 22:24, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Currently the flag of patrolled or not is only maintained for articles in their first 30days, and there are techy reasons not to extend that. We could continue it by getting a bot to add a hidden category to any such articles so they can be followed up and dealt with, but we'd need a bot writer..... On the broader issue of handling the flow of new articles better, one of my favourite ways is to identify potential new candidates for WP:Autopatrolled status so their subsequent articles don't go through NPP. I did a big trawl about a year ago and identified dozens of them, its probably time for another such trawl. But of course any newpage patroller can nominate candidates for AutoPatroller status. ϢereSpielChequers 22:49, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

If pages are reaching the end of the NPP 'conveyor belt', it is because they are not being removed from the stream as fast as they are being replaced. Extending the length of time that they remain in the system (which equates to extending the duration of RecentChanges since the two are tracked through the same database structures) will merely hide the problem for 30 days, after which you will see exactly the same flow of pages into the ether; it will do nothing to address the fundamental issue which is, as Timneu says, that articles need to be removed from the system at a faster average rate than they are put in. Happy‑melon 23:53, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The backlog has fluctuated in the past, and will doubtless fluctuate in the future. Keeping some sort of tag on the ones that currently fall off the end is one part of the solution, recruiting more patrollers is another. We have plenty of backlogs, I can think of no other where we automatically approve things at the end of the queue. ϢereSpielChequers 14:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

(To WSC) i'm just thinking out loud here, but would it be worth a broader rethink of the autopatrolled userright? Currently it's quite tricky to get (I certainly wouldn't qualify), and I wonder whether reducing the requirements and allowing more autopatrolled editors would work. I'm not sure how far this would go to reducing the backlog, but it may be a good idea to bring the standards for autopatrolled more into line with those for rollbacker and reviewer regardless. Regarding the unpatrolled backlog, it may be worth getting the wikify WikiProject involved, as I imagine there's a lot of overlap.  -- Lear's Fool _mobile 02:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't qualify either if I wasn't an admin (or maybe I would - if I wasn't an admin our coverage of Magonids would probably now be rather more complete). Currently you need to have created 75 articles and shown that your new articles don't need to be patrolled by others, or you need to go through RFA and it is then awarded to you as part of the mop. I can't remember the last time we had a successful or even near successful RFA candidate who had any opposes for not yet being ready for autopatroller, so in theory we probably could lower the bar. But I'm convinced there will be loads of candidates out there who are quietly submitting an article a week and finding and appointing a bunch of them as autopatrollers would make a difference. A year ago I trawled for them manually and I suspect the hundred or so who I appointed then have subsequently contributed thousands of articles. But without a bot producing a list of article contributors it is very time consuming to do this. If we were to run such a bot and exhaust our prospect list then I guess we could lower the bar and look at candidates with fewer new articles created, but the gain would also be lower - someone who has created sixty articles in three years might only be contributing one or two articles a month. It takes much longer to check a candidate for Autopatroller status than it does to check one of their articles and mark it as patrolled, so it is only worth doing if someone creates lots of articles. ϢereSpielChequers 14:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a fundamental problem in that there are plenty of pages which tell an editor "how to edit", and are often added as a welcome to their talk pages. For the more mundane matters, there is no "advert" - there's no "volunteers wanted" on the main page. Unless one is really curious or has made some bad edit, I would suspect there are lots of editors out there totally unaware of how they could possibly help Misplaced Pages. I drifted into vandal fighting as I was curious to find out what TW and HG stood for in an edit summary. The work of an NPPer is even more harder to observe.  Ronhjones  00:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I got into NPP because I was on recent changes and came across a new article tagged by CorenSearchBot. It took me a couple of weeks to even find Special:NewPages, so I was watching RecentChanges looking for new articles for a while. I suspect that we'd get at least a few people by simply making NewPages more prominent. As to the autopatroller right; we really need to make that easier, although I'll leave numbers up to those who are more experienced. I'll say this, though; the 1-2 articles a month doesn't sound like a lot, but when you multiply that by a few thousand it can make a difference. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

75 articles!! Needs to be a lot less than that. Hell, I'd give it to people who have 1000 mainspace edits or who have previously created 5 articles without problems. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:18, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

^Strongly agree with this point. 75 articles is overkill by a longshot. Few users qualify for this, so the benefit is minimal. --Patar knight - /_{contributions} 03:19, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Have started discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Autopatrolled_-_reduce_number_of_qualifying_articles, see if anyone can remember why it was set to such a high number. If that doesn't turn up anything dramatic, someone could start an RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:Autopatrolled.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:19, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

One thing I've wished for is a way to subdivide the list. If I could get a list that was automagically filtered to display (for example) medicine or military-related articles, then I think a couple of the big WikiProjects would be happy to do some subject-specific patrolling (perhaps leveraging the AlexNewArtBot). But most of the stuff is pop culture, which I have basically no interest in. I do trawl through the list on occasion just to see if there's anything that seems relevant, but it's primarily a sea of BLPs, with no way of knowing what might be what I'm looking for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned-talk-page-deleting bot broken?

I just deleted a significant number of orphaned talk pages from CAT:CSD that apparently had been up for some time. Is there something wrong with the bot that deletes orphaned talk pages? Nyttend (talk) 14:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned talkpage deletion bot (talk · contribs) seemed to have stopeed working on 27 December. You might want to ask Chris G (talk · contribs) about it, who runs the bot. Regards SoWhy 15:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

A10 "Recently created"

Rationale?
Whereas 'Old' would show a higher probability that the article might not be improved. Anarchangel (talk) 14:18, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Strictly speaking if an article is completely redundant there's little sense in keeping it around, but my intuition is that more "mature" articles that have been around longer and have more editors and more edits have a higher chance of containing some tidbit of useful information that can be merged into the other article. It may also indicate disagreement over the best name for the article, in which case a redirect and not deletion is called for. For these reason I think it's useful to have a deletion review. Dcoetzee 14:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Dcoetzee. A10 is similar to R3 in that regard. The longer something exists, the higher the chance that deletion will not be uncontroversial. Regards SoWhy 14:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Question about speedy and BLPs

Could someone point me to past discussion of whether or not it should be possible to speedy unsourced BLPs if they are older than a certain amount of time? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:27, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/blp. A more extensive discussion is at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people, with what you are referring to at Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 37#Add new criteria to CSD. As a result of these discussions, Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people was created as a policy for those articles (instead of using speedy deletion, imho correctly). Regards SoWhy 09:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey, thanks :D BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:45, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Photos over 5 years old

I suggest that photos over 5 years old NOT be speedied for the following reasons:

• It's very likely that the rules on uploading photos have been changed since that time
• It's very likely that editors other than the uploader have an interest in keeping the photos, and these editors may be difficult to find and inform
• It's very likely that the original uploader will be difficult to contact
• It's very unlikely that anybody is being hurt by copyright infringement - if the copyright holder hasn't contacted us in 5 years, he probably won't ever contact us.

I'm not asking that the current rules not be enforced - only that some time be taken so that all the people involved can be properly contacted and participate in a non-speedy deletion discussion.

Smallbones (talk) 17:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

If a photo meets any of the speedy criteria, it should be deleted regardless of how long it has been on Misplaced Pages. I think the only criterion for which that could be disputed is criterion F10 (useless media files), which is for files, including pictures, which have no foreseeable encyclopedic use. That's regardless of whether it is of any other use to anyone. However, an alternative to outright deletion would be to transfer the file to Commons if any of Misplaced Pages's sister projects could conceivably make use of the picture.

Often, unused pictures that old were uploaded to insert in an article that was itself speedy deleted, and I disagree with the assertion that someone other than the uploader might have some interest in keeping the picture. Should that be the case, it shouldn't be that hard to show that the picture does indeed pass the F10 criterion or is otherwise transferable to Commons. -- Blanchardb -- timed 18:59, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, I'm not saying don't delete them if they don't meet current criteria, I'm saying don't speedily delete them - just take the time to get proper input that may take longer to get in these cases.

After 5 years or so there are many people other than the uploader who may be interested in the photo. In my case, I try to make sure that lists of National Register of Historic Places listings are completely illustrated. There are often over 100 listings in a county (up to about 600). My specific problem involves "F4. Lack of licensing information. Media files that lack the necessary licensing information may be deleted after being identified as such for seven days if the information is not added. Be aware that editors sometimes specify their source in the upload summary." Requirements for licensing information are likely to change over a period of 5 years. I'd hate to think that every 5 years, I'll have to find new pictures for each site, essentially because 5 year old photos are going to be very easily deleted without any discussion effectively allowed. Just slow down the deletion process, please, for this small subset of our files to allow proper input. Smallbones (talk) 20:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Five years, plus a week to fix the problem should be more than enough time. NRHP content already gets a free pass on WP:N, I don't see any compelling reason to give them a free pass on copyright policy as well. I also think it's unlikely the image use policy is going to radically change every five years. if somebody snaps a photo of a building and uploads it at Commons as a free image it should be fine permanently. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Please take this request seriously, nobody is asking for a "free pass on copyright policy." All I'm saying is that if a photo has been in use for 5 years without any problem, it's rather extreme to have a procedure where it can be deleted speedily with the only notice going to the uploader. Why is there a rush to delete these without comment or calm consideration? Example: on Jan. 31 files were listed for deletion and only the uploader was notified. On Jan. 6 a bot commented out the photo in a NRHP list with a notice that the file could be deleted by Jan. 14. I noticed it and asked the nominator to give me some time to see what was happening. On Jan. 7 the photo was deleted. What possible reason is there for this rush?

Most cases handled by speedy are for new articles that don't meet the basic requirements for being on Misplaced Pages. These photos have been around for 5 years and contributed to the encyclopedia during that time. All I'm asking for is to have a reasonable chance to find out about the proposed deletion, comment on it, and check whether the problem can be rectified. Smallbones (talk) 03:40, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I see what you are saying here and completely agree. Where there is a known copyright infringement we are right to get rid of it as soon as we can. Where there is no suspicion that something is a copyright problem, only that there is a chance it isn't free because we don't know enough to be completely certain either way, then there is no harm (and possible benefit) in not being in such a hurry. As to what to do about it, perhaps we should add a requirement that the 7 day period does not start until messages have been left on both the uploader's talk page and the talk page of any page that uses the file. I'm tempted to suggest that any for any uploaded with no edits in the past year that a human is required to see if there are any other contact details (e.g. links to other project's talk pages, email addresses, etc) and attempt to make contact via any method as well. 19:14, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a push to get the lack of licensing fixed at the moment, see User:MGA73/No license. The problem is not jsut for over 5 year old pictures, but more recent stuff too. Even if the photo is speedy deleted, if a license or evidence is forthcoming the picture can come back on line. I can assist if this is required, or you can use WP:REFUND. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the information and for concentrating on the basic issue - speedy vs. non-speedy. Now I know at least where to look for these soon-to-be deleted files , which has sub-cats by dates and appears to be semi-hidden. I understand that there are a lot of improperly uploaded files - maybe 70 in the January 9 sub-cat - and something needs to be done. I'd say ones that have been uploaded in the past year almost have to a pretty strict culling process. But in the January 9 list, I browsed through 8-10 proposed speedy deletions of photo that looked old or interesting, finding only 3 or so that were over 18 months old. One was uploaded by a user who says he is in the top 400 editors by number of edits. He forgot to put a copyright notice on the file when he uploaded it, but did put in the information that he took the picture himself. This tells me that even an experienced editor can have a couple of oversights now and then. Interestingly, when notified he did add the copyright permission, but forgot to take off the "This file has no copyright information" tag. So who knows whether it would have been deleted or not? (I took that tag off). Another older file File:Raffles Lighthouse.jpg was quite interesting. The original uploader did everything right, but another editor uploaded a non-free image over it, and changed the copyright permission. (I reverted to the original). Would this have been caught in a regular speedy process? Another obviously inexperienced editor just filled in the form sparsly on a fair use image- that looked pretty straightforward to me to fill in a few obvious details. So based on a very small sample - I'd say that there are not that many photos here that are even 2 years old and being careful with them won't hold up the process. And older photos are affected by quirks that I never would have even imagined. Why not just say that photos over 2 years old cannot be speedied, or at least add a requirement that timely notifications be put on the article talk pages where the photo appears? Smallbones (talk) 05:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the simplest short-term measure would be to simply require that for all photos nominated under this category, the seven-day period does not start until notices have been placed on both the uploader's talk page and the talk page of any page that includes them. This should be easily doable by bot, and if so done, should delay the process by only a few seconds for those images that should really be deleted (thus not affecting the legal issues at all), while providing more time for cases such as those Smallbones identifies in the original message. If after a few months this hasn't fixed the problem, then we can look at more complicated ways of solving the problem, hopefully with more data to work with. Thryduulf (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Unusual G7

At the moment User:NotAnonymous0 is coming up in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion by user - but I can find no trace of a CSD on that page (and it has not been changed since 9 October 2010 anyway). There are no other pages tagged G7 - so I cannot see that it's due to some transcluded template. It's a mystery...  Ronhjones  17:02, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I assume that someone tagged a userbox for deletion without using <noinclude>-tags and it was still cached. I guess the template in question was User:A930913/UVClub. Regards SoWhy 17:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Redirects from names of living people to articles where they are not discussed

I would like to get other opinions about whether the following situation falls under criteria R3 and/or G10, and if it doesn't, whether we should add or alter a criteria so it is.

If there is a redirect from the name of a living person, that does not contain any edit history not directly relevant to the redirect, to another article in which this person is not discussed, and where the association of that persons name with what is discussed at the target is a potential BLP issue.

To give a specific example, currently being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 January 2 is a redirect to Julian_Assange#Alleged_sex_offenses from the name of one of the women who is making the allegations discussed in that section. There is consensus at the target article not to include the names of the accusers, so she is not discussed there. I believe that were her name mentioned in the article without any accompanying verification that explicitly mentions her that thsi would be a BLP issue; and as her name is not mentioned there there is no such source (as there is no need for one).

User:TeleComNasSprVen suggested that this might fall under criteria R3, but I don't think it does (it is not a typo, and if she were discussed in the article it would be a plausible redirect so it's not a misnomer either). I think G10 is a closer fit, but the purpose of the redirect isn't solely to attack or disparage the subject - as I said it would be a good redirect if she were discussed there (positively, negatively or neutrally), and you can't add sources to a redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I should also add that where BLP issues are not involved, I do not see the need to speedy delete - WP:RFD works fine for these cases. Thryduulf (talk)

Good question. When it's blatant, such as redirecting "John Doe" to Pedophilia, I think we can use G10. In this case, the matter is more complex and even with BLP policy in mind, a discussion at WP:RFD, even when it's longer, should be preferred. The fact that redirects are less exposed to the common reader and that there is some plausibility to have one with that name are good reasons to allow a discussion. The RFD shows that there certainly is controversy over it, so speedy deletion would not be in anyone's best interest. Regards SoWhy 19:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I was referring to this criteria when I cited R3, not CSD. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 15:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that that R3 you stated is intended for areas where G10 may apply, but it's likely that some admins will think otheerwise; or for borderline cases. At any rate, this list of criteria is for listing the redirects at RfD, not for speedy deleting them. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Is a page filled with code patent nonsense?

I think this is patent nonsense. It's code, which isn't patent nonsense to me, but it's not at all prose, so is this patent nonsense?

                  'gui_Singleton',  gui_Singleton, ...
                  'gui_OpeningFcn', @dsp_project_OpeningFcn, ...
                  'gui_OutputFcn',  @dsp_project_OutputFcn, ...
                  'gui_LayoutFcn',  , ...
                  'gui_Callback',   );

  gui_State.gui_Callback = str2func(varargin{1});

    = gui_mainfcn(gui_State, varargin{:});

   gui_mainfcn(gui_State, varargin{:});

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   if (mod(i,scale)==0);
       c1=c1+1;
       d1(c1)=i/scale;
       y1(c1)=signal1(c1);
   else
       c1=c1+1;
   end

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

   set(hObject,'BackgroundColor','white');

  '*.m',  'M-files (*.m)'; ...
  '*.fig','Figures (*.fig)'; ...
  '*.mat','MAT-files (*.mat)'; ...
  '*.mdl','Models (*.mdl)'; ...
  '*.*',  'All Files (*.*)'}, ...
  'Open');

  disp('User selected Cancel')

  disp()

'*.m', 'M-files (*.m)';...
'*.fig','Figures (*.fig)';...
'*.mat','MAT-files (*.mat)';...
'*.mdl','Models (*.mdl)';...
'*.*',  'All Files (*.*)'},...
'Save as');

Discussion

Thoughts? — Timneu22 · talk 15:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Speedy delete as A1, unable to identify the subject, lack of context. Fram (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Patent nonsense means it's incomprehensible, not non-encyclopedic. If anything, I'd say the speedy deletion criterion which most likely applies to this is G12--code is automagically copyrighted when written, and there's no copyright notice that I see on first glance, so I'd call it a likely copyvio. ec: I'd not call it A1, there's comments in the code. Jclemens (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well G1 worked, but I guess A1 is better. The title was DSP TOOL USING GRAPHICAL USER INTERFACE, so it was clear that the code was for whatever that is... but I guess "whatever that is" was unclear, so yeah, A1. — Timneu22 · talk 15:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Either of those, or A3. Code is not meaningful, substantive content. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

No, code is not G1, and is not G12 either unless a non-free copyrighted source is identified (many of the source code submissions to Misplaced Pages are in fact written by contributors). It is rather likely to be either A1 or A3, though, unless it contains explanatory comments. Dcoetzee 01:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

If if has explanatory comments comprehensible to anyone besides the programmer himself, it's likely to have been written by someone who was forced on pain of termination to write said comments, hence copyrighted. :-) Jclemens (talk) 03:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

G1 is not applicable. The content is coherent, though not in English. A3 does not apply, because there is certainly plenty of (admittedly non-encyclopedic) content, and A3 is only for short articles, which that was clearly not. A1 would demand that someone knowledgeable in the language in question couldn't understand what is going on. And has been pointed out, G12 should probably be able to specifically identify the source. So... I'm thinking it should have been PROD'ed. Not everything that's clearly non-encyclopedic should be speedily deletable. Jclemens (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

In this case, I'd say it's so clearly non-encyclopedic that G13 (hopeless to the point no one would argue, get the hell rid of it) would apply. There's still no Office of Speedy Deletions to my knowledge. But could be PROD'ded, too. It's not actively harmful content, and one's not worse than the other. (Though one might want to direct the author to a site like Pastebin, as that may be what they're looking for anyway. In that case, removing it quickly would discourage the practice. (Off the topic, Jclemens, how do you get by without commenting? If I look at code I did six months or a year ago, it can take me some time to even figure out the details of what the hell -I- did, let alone to have someone else figure it. And besides that, explaining it in a clear form makes you think about what you're doing anyway. Comments are good!) Seraphimblade 04:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

J, you say the content is coherent, just not in English. Gimme a break. That provision is intended for material in a foreign language, not computer codes. Let's not pretend the intent was to protect an article like this. The criterion was never intended to be wiki-lawyered in such a manner to protect an article that is not in any language spoken by actual human beings. I also don't see where it is specified that A3 is only for short articles. It is for articles with no substantive content. Like a bunch of computer code without any explanation of what it is. And let's not forget that we are allowed to use our own brains once in while to make a decision. I would have accepted IAR as a reason to delete something like this. Dumping code on us without explanation could only confuse our readers. I have been among those who have criticized Tim in the past for trying to stretch what CSD is for, but he's right on in this case. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:13, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, when I code (which is entirely uncommon--I don't think I've written anything more than a shell script in a decade or so) I write comments to help me remember what I did, not introduce someone else to the topic.

Beeblebrox, you've got it 100% backwards: Speedy criteria don't exist to "protect an article", they're a very limited set of things, defined by the community, which can be deleted without debate, fanfare, or even much in the way of notice. Using initiative to expand speedy definitions without consensus is improper, and while computer code may indeed be pointless and non-encyclopedic, it's hardly downright harmful. PROD works fine in these cases. It's not like a raft of code hanging around for a week is going to hurt anything. Jclemens (talk) 15:34, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Slower G10 deletions?

Negative unsourced BLPs can be speedy deleted at present (G10). Attack bios obviously should immediately be. But sometimes it isn't so clear. For example, I came across this this article yesterday. Now, it was obviously unsourced and negative - and technically I could have deleted it immediately. But, it is also the case that the article was probably substantially factual, notable, and harmless. When I've been patrolling BLPs, I've often found similar cases with bios on old mafia bosses, or disgraced Fijian politicians - dozens in the last few weeks alone.

The difficult for someone patrolling is what to do. Tag it, and it will sit for another 4 years. I could research it myself, but if I don't choose to do that (and I don't usually like doing research), what else? Prodding isn't any use since BLPprod doesn't apply to older articles, and regular prods will get removed with "seems notable" -often with the thing still unsourced. I could send to AFD, but again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be an article here, merely that there can't be an unsourced one - and AFD does sometimes tragically keep something because it can be sourced, without actually sourcing it. (In this case, I raised the matter in IRC and invited interested editors to fix it, rather than me deleting it.)

What I'm wondering is whether admins ought to have another option. The option of saying "this needs sourced soon, or it must die" - and giving a short period of grace before speedy deletion. In that period, if any other admin judges the article harmful they can still kill it, but otherwise those who like to rescue such things get a short window (if they miss the window, it can still be undeleted later if someone wants to fix it.)

Currently, I tend to speedy such articles, and then undelete them if someone asks and offers to source them. However, that does tend to lead to friction, and doesn't allow non-admins to review. Some time ago, I put together Template:G10 delayed (indeed I forgot I created it until now) - just to see what this might look like.

This would NOT represent an expansion of the CSD - because all the applicable articles would already be speedy candidates. It would simply allow an admin to take the decision to slow down his speedy, in the hope of another solution, rather than deletion, being found. It would also not preclude attack articles being instantly nuked.

Thoughts?--Scott Mac 14:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

• You raise a lot of interesting and meaningful concerns, and I am really happy that you are thinking about the substance of such articles instead of simply G10 them (which would be a completely understandable response). I tend to think that the best course of action would be to incubate them somewhere outside mainspace, noindexed, and then notifying them to some interested wikiproject (or even the, admittedly debated, ARS, which could help in rescuing these things and sorting them). Also on a personal note: I know we have our grudges, Scott Mac, but in the interests of the encyclopedia I'd be very happy if you can pop on my talk page and notice me of some of these articles -I'd be happy to source them if I can or put them to deletion if I can't find anything. --Cyclopia 15:05, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
  • This isn't just about me or you. So me putting them on your talkpage won't upscale. What I'm trying to do is to tweak current practice to find a place where negative unsourced BLPs (whose notability is generally not in question) can be fixed by those who want to - but are now allowed to hang about indefinitely in hope. The incubator idea is interesting, but we'll not get consensus for such ideals. We might get consensus for my small tweak. --Scott Mac 15:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
    • I know it wouldn't upscale, it was just raising a hand to help you now. It was, so to say, a deflamatory gesture in the name of common interest. But fine. The delayed G10 sounds interesting but I doubt it will be of real help if a mechanism to notify people interested in the potential sourcing (either by notifying wikiprojects or otherwise creating a "hub" where to deal with that) isn't also put. --Cyclopia 15:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
      • It could create a hub. It could add the articles to a special category, and a bot could generate a list for sorting. I don't imaging this tag would be applied very often or to very many articles. Even when I'm at the height of my searching, I'm only finding a few utterly unsourced negative bios per day - and some obviously need immediate deletion because they are scurrilous. But if you look through my talk page you'll find a steady stream of people saying "can you undelete this?" I always do if they are willing to source it, but it would be good to have a less heavy way to the same result = "either no article or a sourced one".--Scott Mac 15:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)I'm just thinking out 'loud, but how about a system where the pages are blanked and editors are invited to draft a sourced version on the talkpage or a subpage thereof? After a period of time (2 days, a week, whatever), an admin reviews the new draft. If it's good, they replace the blanked page with it. If it's no good, they delete the article.  -- Lear's Fool 15:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Interesting, but won't get consensus. The current norm is to speedy negative unsourced articles. You'll not get that changed, but we might give admins a little leeway to be more creative.--Scott Mac 15:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
    • edit conflict to SlimVirgin, below Okay. I suppose my main concern with your proposal is having negative, unsourced BLPs still being indexed by search engines. {{noindex}} doesn't work in the mainspace, so the only way to prevent indexing would be to accompany your delayed G10 with a courtesy blanking, which means further improvements would have to be drafted elsewhere (the talkpage?). What do you think about adding a courtesy blanking to your template, and a note inviting people to source the pre-blanked revision?  -- Lear's Fool 15:37, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, blanking is a good idea.--Scott Mac 15:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
• I think this is an excellent idea, assuming the period of grace isn't too long. But it's certainly very fair, in that it gives people a reasonable chance to find sources. SlimVirgin 15:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I'd say 7 days MAXIMUM. But a list could be kept of any not sorted in that time, so people can offer to source them beyond the deadline.--Scott Mac 15:37, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Some recent examples of my G10 deletion (any of which I'm happy to undelete if someone is willing to source): Oreste Scalzone, Mickey Featherstone Virgilio R. Gonzalez.--Scott Mac 15:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

• I tend to think that permission to delete without review, a la G10, implies permission for an administrator to take any lesser action which might also solve the problem. Thus, I really don't think blanking should be off the table--it, along belongs alongside research/expansion, incubation/NOINDEXing, and other sub-deletion approaches as a valid way to handle such an article. Jclemens (talk) 15:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
• Can we not widen BLP PROD to include such BLPs, so long as they are stubbed? My experience of this kind of thing was Yoshinori Watanabe, about a Japanese yakuza boss - it was nominated for speedily deletion as an attack page, declined, then blanked, then deleted. I came across it because it was debated at ANI, hardly the optimum way to deal with such articles. Fences&Windows 19:49, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
  • • Let me be clear. We are not talking about mass deletions - there are hopefully very few negative unsourced articles - or about controversial deletions. We are talking about articles that currently fall within the CSD - but can sometimes be fixed. All I'm saying is that things might be smoother if a reviewing admin has the option of slowing down his speedy deletion. Unless and until someone puts a valid reference on such a negative article, it would still remain eligible for speedy deletion. I'm happy with blanking, as long as it is understood that the blanking is a temporary measure, to allow some grace for fixing the article. I'd only be willing to use such a "delayed speedy" if the time allowed were less than 7 days. (I'm still willing to userfy or undelete for immediate sourcing beyond that time).--Scott Mac 19:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)