Misplaced Pages

• B3 of the NY Times, anyone? –xeno 00:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Aaron Bongart

I spent a lot of time in the scientology article, I made attempts to include information from primary sources although unknowingly, yet I am not faceing a ban. I want to talk about why this is. When somebody tells you that what you are doing is wrong or in some way un befitting of the place in which you are doing it, its probably a good idea to listen to them. There was a lot of Scientology controlled or operated accounts used to alter, remove, distort or otherwise censore information about itself particularly information that is controversial. The removal of secondary sources in an effort to get an entire range of information invalidated is wrong. The abuse or intentional manipulation of the rules and regulations in order to further a personal or be it organization enforced goal is also wrong is unethical. I am confounded by the amount of people found guilty in this arbitration who have made comments to the effect of “what did I do wrong” or “this is discrimination/Religious hate/Intolerance/etc”. I am not sure if I fully agree with what Misplaced Pages has done but I can say I support it because I am unable to find any failure of logic or weakness of application of said logic anywhere in the arbitrations decision. I find flaws in everything, being autistic I use that to my advantage but I can not see anything wrong with banning scientology from the topic or even related topics. It would be no different if started vandalizing its own and related thread all from the same set of ips belonging to it. The irony here is that scientology prides itself on being comprised of the most ethical people on the planet. What is ethical about defacing articles? The spokespersons of scientology are making the claim that this was done due to there being horribly inaccurate information on the page. Still today anybody that puts up a video on youtube or posts on a forum mentioning lord xenu, hubbard’s more outlandish lectures or anything about the slave camps they get a S&D letter from moxon or some other legal person on behalf of the “church”. Is there not a stark similarity Scientology attempting to censor or deface content about itself posted outside the boundries of a verified and sourced document and the actions of the church inside such boundries? I do not think that by function of how scientology thinks that they will ever be capable of following the rules here. I also urge that websites and organization in a ilk situation of this at Misplaced Pages should consider putting restrictions on scientology and its access to said site.Aaron Bongart (talk) 14:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

OR on shared IPs

Could it be possible that it has something to do with the filter software all parishioners have to use? It could work as a proxy, sending information to the servers, allowing them to check whether material accessed is appropriate or inappropriate. It seems more likely than astroturfing to me. 92.0.138.3 (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Unlikely since this filtering software has been non-functional since Windows 98, AFAIK. Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 12:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: User:Anynobody

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Anynobody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Anynobody

I was topic banned in the recent second Scientology arbitration case, for stuff I did months before the first Scientology arbitration case which occurred in summer 2008.

• Evidence 1 a diff from 02/2008
• Evidence 2 a diff from 01/2008

There is something fundamentally wrong with banning me from this topic since not only was this "evidence" ignored in the first case but I also haven't violated the terms given from that case.

Reply to Coren

Accordingly, I'm uncertain what, exactly, this request is asking for. Put simply I'd like to continue editing any article I please. Banning someone from editing a topic should be a last resort, and since the arbcom didn't say I was pushing a POV in the first case I'd argue that we haven't quite reached the last resort. (If the arbcom ruled I was pushing a POV, and I continued to do the same thing, a ban would make sense. That isn't the case here.)

I totally understand that at first glance it might seem I had been ...been consistently pushing a specific point of view... Honestly though, the only POV I'm "pushing" is what's in the sources - every edit I made was as a result of what our best sources say. (Secondary sources like Time magazine and the LA Times, as well as primary sources like the US Navy.) The fact is these sources are unpopular with Scientologists and it took a great deal of time and effort to maintain them in most Scientology articles. You aren't saying I should just let editors with a positive view of Scientology remove info this easily sourced?

As regards mentioning my "harassment" of Justanother the point I am trying to make is that I disagree with the arbcom's first ruling which was affirmed in this case. Since he was banned by this arbcom for the same behavior I was trying to call attention to it is especially irritating that the same committee would affirm my attempts to solve this problem SOONER was harassment. Anynobody(?) 01:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Replies to Wizardman and Cool Hand Luke

Gentlemen I've ALWAYS used ALL information from what we consider reliable sources. Articles about Scientology feature in depth coverage of its negative aspects. Are you saying we should ignore the bulk of what the sources say about a topic because some people don't like what it has to say? (For example a Time article called The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power obviously is going to say things Scientologists don't like, and might just make anyone citing it look anti-Scientology.)

If not, would you please explain how someone could use info like Time's, the LA Times, Wall Street Journal, or any of the other dozen or so reliable and non-biased sources without appearing to support the points in them? Anynobody(?) 02:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Other topic bans from same case

I noticed that some of the editors banned, on both sides, haven't edited for quite some time. For example CSI LA last edited in 2007 and the same goes for Orsini Why are these two being topic banned after having escaped scrutiny (or even participation) in the first arbcom case AND not made an edit since 2007?

None of the graphics I made are meant to disparage anyone or anything and directly reflect the available sources. The image of DC-8s arriving on Earth for Xenu was meant to replace an already made illustration created by modifying a photo of NASA's DC-8 in space with the word Xenu on its tail.

Lastly, this arbitration reaffirmed that I previously harassed Justanother. I submit that the whole allegation if harassing Justanother (aka Justallofthem) stems from my attempt to get a WP:RFC/U going regarding his behavior. After the last arbitration I've not had any real contact with him, and he's been banned for the same type of behavior I was trying to call attention to in the first place. WP:HA#What harassment is not says A user warning for disruption or incivility is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly, made in good faith and attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one. I've never called for him to be banned or demanded punishment, all I asked for was a RFC when it appeared he was having similar problems with several editors through giving the community an opportunity to comment. Anynobody(?) 02:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Shutterbug

Anynobody, this a cumulative decision based on all your "bad deeds". I am curious to see how the article develops without us. Let the clueless rule! Shutterbug (talk) 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Milomedes

Either there's more to the case against Anynobody or there isn't. From only what's posted within the case pages, which isn't much, I don't know.

I looked at each "POV" diff (two) and each "disparaging" graphic (five). The diffs are fairly ordinary-looking edits, and would seem to be POV only if not reliably sourceable. The graphics are documentation of a type permitted as original research or describable primary sources. Two of the graphics would seem to be disparaging (by the editor) only if they weren't based on reliable sources. I don't know if they were or weren't based on reliable sources in the details, but in the current article, the LA Times seems to back the core issue that Anynobody was editing.

If these edits were based on reliable sources, then Anynobody must have done something notable within the article talk pages that merited the "POV" and "disparaging" charges. Did he? I don't know.

The fact-finding mentioned that prior arbitration determined that Anynobody harassed Justanother. I looked at that case, and it determined that Anynobody "complained to and of Justanother with great frequency and persistence". Well, now that Justa* has been banned from the entire project, one might reasonably conclude that Justa* was a frequent and persistent problem under the radar. In any case, with Justa* gone, a remedy against Anynobody inclusive of that reason lacks a preventive purpose, so I suggest tagging it with a note of 'No longer relevant to a preventative remedy since Justa(names) has been site banned by another remedy of this case'.

My tentative conclusion is that there is either no substantive case against Anynobody, or it's a case that's been presented with insufficient specificity. If there is no substantive case, the topic ban and restriction should be rescinded. If there is a substantive case, please present it so Anynobody can either defend his actions, or avoid doing again whatever he supposedly did that was so bad it deserved a topic ban. Milo 01:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• Just because it confused me the first time I read it Anynobody (talk · contribs) is not the same person as A Nobody (talk · contribs). MBisanz 22:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• This request should be archived later today, provided there are no further comments. Hersfold 14:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused, in accord with my recusal from the relevant arbitration case. --Vassyana (talk) 04:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
• The point of the topic ban remedies is to remove those editors whose editing has been consistently pushing a specific point of view from the problem articles entirely. It was not intended to only remove the current participants in the dispute, or to create a "power vacuum". I should point out that the restriction should not be onerous to any editor who no longer edits the topic given that it simply codifies status quo. Accordingly, I'm uncertain what, exactly, this request is asking for. — Coren  01:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
• My view is that the first case was fundamentally unfair to the community for not topic banning you. Misplaced Pages must not be a battleground, and this topic ban is part of the package to remove past edit warriors from this field. You have no restriction with any topic in the entire human experience except for Scientology. Happy editing. Cool Hand Luke 07:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Coren sums up my views. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• As Coren said, everyone who was pushing a specific viewpoint was topic banned, even if they haven't edited in years. To unban you would be unfair to the community and others in the case. Nothing else to say here. Wizardman 16:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology (1)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Touretzky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Touretzky

I haven't logged into my Misplaced Pages account in quite a while, so I was not aware that I had been dragged into Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology until a friend told me today that I'd been topic banned. I wish to protest this ban as unjustified.

A look at my edit history shows that I have not edited any Scientology-related article since 2007. (Been busy doing other things.) I contributed a few typo/grammar fixes in 2008, but none of those articles were about Scientology. It is unreasonable to topic ban me in 2009 when I've never received any kind of reprimand or caution about any edits I've made, and have done nothing wrong, even when I was editing Scientology articles back in 2007.

Second, the ruling criticizes me for editing the article on Applied Scholastics and for including a link to my StudyTech.org web site. The StudyTech.org web site is the primary reference for anyone who wants a critical look at the subject. That is why the current Applied Scholastics article, which I have not touched since 2007, continues to link to StudyTech.org; any article that did not link to this resource would be incomplete. I don't think it's Wikpedia policy that only non-experts can edit an article. And I contest the claim that my edits are self-interested. People write about what they know. Being a Scientology critic shouldn't prohibit me from editing Scientology-related articles any more than being a Scientologist would.

Being topic banned is humiliating and, in my case, unjustified. I'd like to request that this ban be rescinded.

Response to Shutterbug

The studytech.org web site contains an extensive archive of newspaper and magazine articles about Applied Scholastics, its affiliated organizations, and study technology, going back as far as 1980. It contains a well-researched article by Chris Owen about the organizational structure of Applied Scholastics and its relationship to the Church of Scientology. It contains a sentence-by-sentence comparison of the supposedly secular Basic Study Manual (an Applied Scholastics publication) with Scientology religious scripture. It also contains a roughly 15,000 word critical essay by me and Chris Owen with extensive quotations and citations. There is no other resource anywhere on the web, including Applied Scholastics' own web sites, that contains comparable information. Studytech.org is listed as recommended further reading by John T. Hatfield, Benjamin J. Hubbard, and James A. Santucci in their book An Educator's Classroom Guide to America's Religious Beliefs and Practices (2007): see p. 98. (You can "look inside this book" at Amazon.com.) What Shutterbug attempts to dismiss as a "personal web site" is in fact the primary critical resource on the web for learning about study technology and Applied Scholastics. Misplaced Pages articles must be NPOV, but there is no requirement that external links point only to sites that are NPOV. So if it's impermissible to include this site in the list of external links at the end of a Misplaced Pages article, I'd like to know why, because I really don't get it. -- Touretzky (talk) 03:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

2nd response to Shutterbug

WP:RS applies to sources used to support statements in Misplaced Pages articles; it does not apply to the external links section at the end of an article. Sites that WP:RS would frown upon (e.g., wikis, personal web pages) are common in external links sections. For example, the article on Kirstie Alley includes an external link to a Star Trek wiki. In any case, topic banning me in May 2009 for having added an external link back in October 2007 is absurd. -- Touretzky (talk) 07:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to Thatcher

Thank you for the pointer to Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#Convenience_links. I understand the policy and will adhere to it. However, the language about "convenience links" that you are referring to now, in May 2009, did not exist in the version that was current in October 2007. Furthermore, this policy refers to links used in citations. What I'm being taken to task for is adding an external link, so the relevant policy would seem to be WP:EL. I believe I can make a good case for an external link to studytech.org in accordance with the current version of WP:EL, but the place to do that would be the article's Talk page, which I am now banned from editing. My purpose here is to argue that topic banning a user who has never received any sort of caution from any Misplaced Pages admin, for a link they added in good faith 19 months ago, is not a reasonable way to instruct someone in the finer points of Misplaced Pages editorial policy. Telling them to do penance for six months (in Scientology this would be called an amends project) and then apply to have the ban lifted does not make this action any more reasonable. -- Touretzky (talk) 17:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to RogerDavies

Your comments are phrased in general language, which suggests that you are addressing the broader proposals of Durova and Zippy rather than the specifics of my case. So let me describe how things look from where I'm sitting. I was happily living my life, making occasional typo and grammar fixes to Misplaced Pages articles having nothing to do with Scientology, and completely oblivious to the bedlam you describe. For reasons that are still unclear to me, my name got dragged into an arbitration request I knew nothing about, and I ended up topic banned. Then the story hit Slashdot. Now I have people emailing me saying "I see you got banned from Misplaced Pages." Today I received my first journalist inquiry about the ArbCom decision. What am I to tell this person?

I have never been uncivil to anyone on Misplaced Pages, despite extreme provocation. In June 2005 a Misplaced Pages biography page was created for me by a Scientologist that was so outrageously defamatory that Jimbo Wales himself became involved, urging me to take no action and let the Misplaced Pages admins deal with the issue. I did as he asked. This was before WP:BLP even existed. (In fact, I think this was one of the incidents that reinforced the need for WP:BLP.) A lot has changed since 2005.

I've spent the last few days reacquainting myself with Misplaced Pages, and I've noticed two significant changes. First, the Scientology articles are far more meticulously sourced today than back when I was an active contributor. I take this as evidence of constructive tension between critics and believers, despite what other shenanigans might also be taking place between some of these people. Second, Misplaced Pages policies are significantly more detailed and comprehensive than when I first arrived on the scene. At this point, although I would like to be able to contribute again to Scientology articles, and also to the Robotics Portal, I would welcome the assistance of a mentor who can provide some guidance, because it's clear that the penalties for error can be severe, and there is no statute of limitations. -- Touretzky (talk) 03:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Response to Cool Hand Luke

I'm sorry to see that, like Roger Davies, you have chosen to respond in general terms rather than address the specifics of my case. Here is the flaw in the "rehabilitation" argument. Suppose I go off and do penance as you suggest, working on articles in some other areas where I have expertise, incurring no warnings or sanctions of any kind and receiving no mentoring from anyone. Who is to say that in 2011 I won't be publicly banned from editing articles in the Robotics Portal because some link I added in good faith in 2009 is later deemed to violate WP:COI, or some deletion I viewed as vandalism and reverted is deemed 2 years later to be edit warring? You might say, "This is Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. We would not take such a harsh and unreasonable action in 2011." I would hope that's true, but that is precisely what is happening in 2009 based on edits I made in good faith in 2007. Is this really the precedent the ArbComm intends everyone to live by now? -- Touretzky (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Shutterbug

Comment: Reading the appeal of Touretzky I find that he did not get it. His personal websites are not an authoritative source for anything but his own state of mind and him pushing them into Misplaced Pages articles is exactly what he was topic-banned for. Shutterbug (talk) 01:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to DT: Dave, read up on Misplaced Pages policy, will you? Quiz: Copies of secondary sources hosted on private attack websites. Allowed per WP:RS or not? Shutterbug (talk) 06:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Durova

Perhaps this motion should be expanded to include other editors who had not edited the topic for a very long time before the case began. Intending this equally toward both 'sides': it's about principle, not ideology. Misplaced Pages remedies are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive. It is unlikely that any sanctions proposal against an editor who hadn't touched a topic since 2007 would have passed--or even been taken seriously--if similar proposals had gone up at AN or ANI. That applies generally, not simply to long term disputes.

When you go for the nuclear option, you may get Chernobyl. Indiscriminate and/or punitive sanctions could make the topic radioactive. Looking ahead, I worry about the long term impact upon this topic if the uninvolved Wikipedians whose assistance the Committee seeks to encourage become fearful to make the attempt. Durova 02:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Touretzky's humble request for mentorship ought not to be necessary; he hasn't edited the topic in a year and a half. It is prejudicial to suggest that his topic ban is preventative or rehabilitative: this editor has no need of rehabilitation for having added an external link to an article in compliance with policy as it existed at the time, nor need he be prevented from complying with policy in future. In good faith I would like to suppose that the Committee's decision to sanction him was the result of overwork and carelessness, that such an eminently capable editor was placed under severe sanction on the basis of hardly any evidence at all, yet it would be remiss at this stage if I failed to note the suspicion that he was sanctioned not for his actions but for his putative beliefs. It is with deep regret that I repeat the declaration, due to the capricious actions of this year's Arbitration Committee in several cases, I have ceased accepting new mentorships. The Committee owes this man an apology for the real world damage it has done to his reputation, and the Committee owes the community a pledge that it will not repeat the gross error in judgment upon other volunteers. Durova 04:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

In response to the arbitrators who have posted: ArbCom routinely holds editors responsible not only for their intentions but also for the consequences of their actions. The Committee must hold itself to the same standard. Regardless of intentions, the decision in this case caused international headlines. It also topic banned a scientist from a major university who edits under his real name, and sanctioned him upon a frivolous rationale. He initiated this request along with a query what to do about a journalist who had asked him for a statement. At the very least, an arbitrator ought to have informed him of the existence of ComCom promptly. A day and a half later, when the sparseness of reply caused worries, I did so. No arbitrator had. It was hardly an expectation, when I used the word 'milquetoast' to describe earlier decisions, that such indiscriminate action would result, or such poor followup where timeliness is essential. Please set this right. Durova 17:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

To Cool Hand Luke: the editor I mentor is well known to have been a former edit warrior. Early in the case I asked the Committee to disregard his behavior from two years ago and weigh him in terms of more recent actions. Afterward many more names were added, and when it became apparent that evidence against Steve Dufour from two years ago was being weighed I asked the Committee to extend the same courtesy to Steve Dufour and to all the named parties. Steve Dufour had been partisan on the opposite side of the dispute. So it's a very odd to see the word wikilawyering being applied. Wasn't I ethically obligated to be consistent about this principle? And isn't it normal at this website to refrain from sanctioning over very old behaviors that have not been repeated in over a year? Durova 21:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Zippy

Moved comments from other sections to new single section. KnightLago (talk) 02:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I've read the arbitration decision and User:Touretzky's appeal. Given the evidence that Touretzky presents, it seems reasonable to reconsider the topic ban on this editor. If there were activity in the past year in support of this ban, or examples of egregiously disruptive behavior, I would think otherwise, but I fail to see such evidence. --Zippy (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to and agreement with Durova

This is also what I am thinking. Let's say we're dealing with a user who makes edits in good faith, whether they get the ethos of the Misplaced Pages or not. This is pretty common, and the normal action is to guide the user, warn them if the behavior continues, and block as a last resort, but even then, block only for a short amount of time (a day, a week).

In this case, we have a user, Touretzky, who made edits that the arbitration committee has decided are not in keeping with the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages. The edits were over a year ago, and Touretzky says he received no warning at the time, yet did not create any more events deemed worthy of arbitration attention or warning or sanction.

Whether the user gets it or not is missing the point. I believe that bringing down the ban-hammer on a user as step one, or even step n, is premature if they a) have not received guidance from the community at the time the edit occurred, and b) have not continued to make edits that go against the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages.

In this case, Touretzky is engaged in a dialog with the greater Misplaced Pages community, something that can be achieved with less than a topic ban. I would rather that we assume good faith and allow this user to be free of the mark of sanction so long as his present behavior is within the norms of so many other editors who have yet to fully grok Misplaced Pages. By topic banning, I believe we are more likely to lose an editor than we are to bring them up to speed. --Zippy (talk) 03:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to Roger Davies

No doubt this topic is a particularly polarizing one, I think everyone would agree with that. My question is more about the right way to bring users into the fold. For a user's first experience with official guidance to be not a warning, but a topic ban, seems heavy-handed considering the actions by the user occurred in 2007. As the user has not in recent memory been engaged in any behavior worth objection, and has made constructive edits on other topics in the meantime, why not talk to the user rather than sanction them?

While I accept that your intent with a topic ban is to rehabilitate the user, I suspect that in many cases, if a user were faced with a topic ban as the first action against them, we would be unlikely to see that user return. And so I would like us to assume good faith here, not in a wikilawyerly way, but as a reasonable path, considering the user has not done anything that anyone has objected to for over a year. --Zippy (talk) 21:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Response to Cool Hand Luke

With all respect to the difficulty the arbitration committee faces with the edits on the topic of Scientology, Touretzky engaged in no objectionable edits for one and a half years prior to the arbitration committee's decision. Why ask for more evidence of good behavior when you have at least 18 months of it? --Zippy (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Note

User:Shutterbug is a named party in the arbitration committee's decision. --Zippy (talk) 18:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Thatcher

The object of the decision is to require single-purpose editors on Scientology topics, or on Scientology aspects of other topics (such as to demonstrate a commitment to Misplaced Pages's model of cooperative editing by editing other topics for a while; the ban may be appealed after 6 months. Regarding studytech.org, it is not a reliable source as such. Where it contains newspaper articles and other reliable content, the appropriate practice is to cite the original source, even if it is not online and can not be made an active link. There are several reasons for this, primarily a) a site hosting a copy of someone else's copyrighted news article may be infringing on the original copyright and Misplaced Pages frowns on contributory infringement, and b) there is a risk that partisan archives may not be completely accurate. For more information see the "Convenience links" section of Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources. Thatcher 12:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Antaeus Feldspar

"... Lest there be any doubt, there are the editors who, over the years, have got the topic into the toxic mess it is today. There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly. If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them. If they have not moved on, six months pottering around Misplaced Pages learning how policy works in other less-contentious areas will do them no harm. There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans; they are preventative and rehabilitive." Roger Davies, at

I am afraid that these assertions from Roger Davies cause me to wonder anew just how well Roger, and the other members of the Arbitration Committee, actually understand the effects of the decision they have handed down. The statement that the topic-bans are "preventative and rehabilitive," and that "there is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans," is so startling that I can only think that Roger has in mind only what the intent behind the topic-bans was, and has perhaps not realized that the effect of the ArbCom's punishment is substantially different from what it might have envisioned or intended.

The ArbCom may choose to believe that it is not bound by the precedents of previous cases, but it cannot ignore those precedents. With that in mind, let's look at a case from the past, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo. It does not take much examination of the evidence to get a sense of Terryeo; I actually suspect that a reader can get a fairly strong sense from just one section of the evidence, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo/Evidence#Evidence presented by Antaeus Feldspar, showing just one point on which Terryeo argued endlessly and tendentiously, accusing other editors of inserting opinion and original research, accusing other editors of lying, removing citations with false claims about the contents of the cited sources, and inserting his own opinion and original research (yes, after loudly demonizing others for allegedly doing so.) So what is my point in bringing up the case of Terryeo? Simply this: That arbitration case was called to deal with just one problem user, and after all the evidence (about 120 diffs by my count) presented to show that user's problem behavior on Scientology and Dianetics related pages, the ArbCom chose the following remedy: "Terryeo is banned indefinitely from articles which relate to Dianetics or Scientology. He may make appropriate comments on talk pages." (emphasis added.)

By sentencing current editors to a complete topic ban, specifically stated to exclude talk pages, the current Arbitration Committee is making the clear statement, whether it is intentional or not: all these editors are greater offenders than Terryeo. They must be, or else it would not be necessary to sentence them more harshly than Terryeo, based on less evidence.

Perhaps in a world where "what happens on Misplaced Pages, stays on Misplaced Pages," it might be true that painting these editors as offenders so severe that the ArbCom must use topic-banning as a first resort rather than last has "no element of punishment". Perhaps in a world where reputation has no effect whatsoever, or a world without Google, this drastic depiction "will not hurt them." Not in this world, however. It was not that long ago that I was on a lunch date with a lovely young lady that I had been recently introduced to, and she started the conversation, to my shock, with her observations on my past difficulties at the hands of Zordrac (talk · contribs). I was fortunate that she was able to recognize Zordrac (a.k.a. Internodeuser) as possessed of neither honesty or good judgment -- but could I have expected her to recognize that the Arbitration Committee, when it chose the drastic remedy of topic-banning, was simply trying to find a "rehabilitive" remedy? Could I have expected her, frankly, to believe such a claim, when I myself find it hard to credit? Could I expect a prospective employer, Googling me, to believe that the Arbitration Committee thought its topic-ban on me was purely "preventative"? I do not think anyone looking at my contributions, noting the complete absence of any article edits from the end of June 2007 right up to the current day, would believe that the ArbCom applied a "preventative" remedy, because quite obviously there was no reason to think there was anything to prevent.

"There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly" -- I think that it might be said, quite gently, that it is not the place of the Arbitration Committee to change the deeply held beliefs of any editor, whether those beliefs be Scientology or science. Nor is it rational for any member of the ArbCom to expect editors to change their deeply held beliefs to suit the pleasures of the Arbitration Committee. Editor behavior is the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Committee. If the Arbitration Committee wishes to influence editor behavior in a positive direction, however, I cannot think that relying purely on "the passage of time" to "influence their ability to behave correctly" is an advisable course of action. Neither is employing as a first resort, for editors made aware for the first time that their behavior is of concern to the ArbCom, remedies more severe than those used as a last resort against editors with long and blatant histories. -- Antaeus Feldspar (talk) 01:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Cool Hand Luke

"I'm puzzled by the claim that these topic bans are punitive." Generally speaking, sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative.

With reference to any one of the multiple editors who had been completely inactive on the topic of Scientology -- or completely inactive, period -- for over a year prior to the start of the case, it really is very hard to see what sort of imminent disruption the ArbCom might have believed that they were "preventing". Did they really believe that Touretzky's complete inactivity from 27 September 2008 onward was just the prelude to some sort of disruptive return, which had to be prevented with the immediately brute-force remedy of a topic-ban?

It is even harder for any reasonable person to believe that the topic bans would have a "rehabilitative" effect. No one who has a choice chooses to "rehabilitate" unless they are given some reason to believe that there is a better place which can be theirs at the end of the process. The Arbitration Committee gave no such reason. On the contrary, by interpreting editors' records in the worst possible light (for instance, jumping to the conclusion that a large number of Scientology edits is automatically a history of POV warring, and that the only deleted contributions worth considering in an editor's record must have been to BLPs), by labelling them as an imminent threat that could only be dealt with by a brute-force remedy that skipped all the "other avenues" that it is expected will be tried first, the Arbitration Committee gave all those editors reason to believe that if they stayed (or, in many cases, returned) they would be devalued and treated as criminals. What exactly the Arbitration Committee think that they provided as incentive for anyone to "rehabilitate"?

Sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative. People are referring to these topic-bans as punitive measures because of those three, only a punitive intent makes sense of what the ArbCom did. -- Antaeus Feldspar (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I should point out that there is in fact a fourth category. The common assumption uniting the first three is that the sanction is aimed primarily to affect the putative offender(s). Sanctions in the fourth category are those where the real priority is to affect someone else. Examples would be sanctions intended to "send a message", or to ward off accusations of bias by showing that the decision-makers are willing to punish both sides equally (whether or not both sides offended equally.) The problem with fourth-category sanctions is that they destroy trust. No one likes to be used, not even in a good cause. So once again, the sanctions don't make sense as preventative or rehabilitative, and the other possibilities that do make sense are all very bad roads to take Misplaced Pages down. -- Antaeus Feldspar (talk) 04:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Anynobody

The simple truth here is that any editor trying to add info to Scientology topics has three basic types of sources to use:

• 1) Mainstream media and government (Like the LA Times, Time, the New York Times, the FBI, etc...)
• 2) Scientology
• 3) Scientology critics

Clearly info from Scientology and its critics has a place in our articles, but since both sides are biased more space must be reserved for mainstream sources without a bias one way or another. When drawing upon mainstream sources one can't help but notice the overall negative tone of coverage. Since neutrality, as defined in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, means including all relevant non-biased sources. If we do that with regards to Scientology articles, the negative tone in our sources will also be reflected in our articles.

If one wants to give an overall neutral tone to Scientology articles, the only way to do so would be ignoring articles with titles like; "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power". I can't make a topic sound any better or worse than the sources available make it sound, in this case they make Scientology sound pretty bad. It's not Dr. Touretzky's, Antaeus Feldspar's, or my fault that our sources paint a negative picture of Scientology. Anynobody(?) 04:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Erik9

With all due respect to Roger Davies, his claim that "There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans" is completely and blatantly incorrect. While the bans may not have been enacted with a punitive intent, they do in fact serve to punish the editors against whom they were imposed. In a variety of ways, users subject to active sanctions by the Arbitration Committee are relegated to second-class citizenship on Misplaced Pages - for instance, they are persona non grata at RFA; Davies' assertion that "If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them" is obviously false. For this reason, while the committee may view past conduct as the background against which current behavior is considered, it should not sanction editors except when necessary to control present disruption. If the Arbitration Committee will not reverse its decision to topic-ban users over editing that occurred in 2007 and earlier, then Jimbo Wales should. Erik9 (talk) 03:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Tilman

I notice that most of the topic-banned critics haven't edited for a long time - so they have already done what the ban is meant to do ("editing other topics for a while"). Although this sounds like a conspiracy theory, it looks to me as if the idea was to block a few inactive critics to avoid a lawsuit by scientology, so to make it appear that the ban is "balanced", so that heads from "both sides" are put on pikes.

Yeah, the ban can be "appealed" after six months. Considering the way that my topic-ban was constructed in the first place (falsely labelling me a single purpose account, later corrected to a "Scientology-focused" account, then using edits on one single deleted-contrary-to-AFD article from three years ago as "evidence", but hiding the evidence-edits from the accused), I'd expect this "appeals" process to be like these parole hearings in movies, where the innocent guy is denied parole only after he admits guilt and feels "sincerly" sorry in several hearings :-) --Tilman (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused, in accordance with my recusal from the relevant case. --Vassyana (talk) 03:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment When this case came to us, it came with impassioned pleas to deal with the battlefield that it had become. The problems had spilled over into the noticeboards, and had neutralised their capacities to provide effective solutions. Policy was either ignored or endlessly wikilawyered to suit the agendas of the warring pro- and anti- factions. In this maelstrom, neutral editors either became radicalised and joined one or other warring faction, or were attacked and driven away by both sides. Clearly, a more robust approach than tea and milquetoast was needed.
• The core issue is that, for many editors, Scientology is an immensely polarising topic. The editors who have been topic-banned fit squarely either into the pro- or anti- factions, or have walked in link-step with them. Lest there be any doubt, there are the editors who, over the years, have got the topic into the toxic mess it is today. There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly. If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them. If they have not moved on, six months pottering around Misplaced Pages learning how policy works in other less-contentious areas will do them no harm. There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans; they are preventative and rehabilitive.  Roger Davies 11:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
• I'm puzzled by the claim that these topic bans are punitive. Rather, we hope to prevent the old POV wars by ensuring that the participants have reformed (as several participants have). These users may demonstrate a commitment to our project in other ways. If anything, I think not enough of these old warriors were topic banned. I would be much more interested in topic banning stragglers than overturning any of these for the wikilawyering "principle" of a statute of limitations.
  Our project is to build an encyclopedia. None of the warriors should return before they demonstrate that their swords have turned into plowshares. In the meantime, there are plenty of other fields to tend. Cool Hand Luke 07:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology (2)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• FT2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by FT2

This is a request for a minor clarification or amendment of remedy #2 (IP addresses belonging to the Church of Scientology), to avoid a point of contention that is sure to arise some time soon.

The ruling states, "All IP addresses owned or operated by the Church of Scientology and its associates, broadly interpreted, are to be blocked as if they were open proxies. Individual editors may request IP block exemption if they wish to contribute from the blocked IP addresses."

Could the Committee clarify that this covers IP addresses reasonably believed to be owned or operated by the CoS, or that appear to be substantively used for that purpose or on their behalf, not just those where "ownership" is formally proven through an IP registrar or "operated by" is claimed (and disputed).

This guidance would be worth obtaining before any blocks start hitting the administrators' incident or arbitration enforcement noticeboards, and because it is an obvious block evasion/wikilawyering tactic (obtaining new IP addresses not visibly "owned or operated" by CoS, even "broadly interpreted", would be trivially easy).

FT2  12:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Explanation of need

"Or controlled" is a statement of fact (an IP is or is not "controlled or operated by the Church"). As often stated in sock cases, we don't have the ability to look through the wires, and administrators will not have it with this organization. We would have instead, usage that looks like scientology co-ordinated usage, but no visible "ownership" and some evidence tending to show possible "operation by the Church" itself.

With sockpuppetry in general we have the principle, "For the purpose of dispute resolution when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets." (Case link). As future blocks are predictable, and to avoid unnecessary issues, I ask the committee to give explicit confirmation that the same principle is intended to apply here. Ie that the following is a correct statement of the intent and interpretation of the remedy:-

• For the purposes of dispute resolution, administrators do not have to formally prove an IP is "owned or operated by". It is sufficient that it is reasonable to believe the IP is owned or operated by CoS or its proxies, or that it is substantively used for that purpose or on their behalf.

FT2  21:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• The wording was intended to give admin and checkusers wide latitude in blocking ip addresses that are under the direct control of the CofS. IMO, the wording, "or operated by", covers the situation that you describe. Any more detailed wording could introduce more confusion not less. With additional remedies, "Account limitation, and Editors instructed, I think we have all the bases covered. As always, admins and checkusers will look at each situation on a case by case basis before they make these blocks so we can discuss anything unusual then. FloNight♥♥♥ 18:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
  • IMO, the point of the particular remedy is to specifically modify the use of ip addresses owned and directly controlled by the CofS, so if you are referring to a more general coordinated editing of the topic by people acting on the direction of the CofS, then it would not apply. But as I pointed out, other remedies and our policies would apply to all editor of the Scientology topic. In every instance, an admin and/or checkusers will be looking at the particular details and making a decision. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• "or operated by" includes IPs controlled but not directly owned by COFS. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
• The intent of the remedy is that if an IP is under the control of the CoS, then is should be blocked. The "or operated by" makes it clear that direct ownership is not necessary— as is often the case when IP blocks are concerned, administrator and checkuser interpretation and determination is expected. — Coren  14:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology (3)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Tilman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Tilman

I have edited almost no articles on scientology for over a year (I all but stopped after August 2007), but have still been topic-banned. This is like a scarlet letter which is while I'd like to have the ban lifted, even if I am not currently editing on this. My only "crime" was that I edited on Barbara Schwarz while at the same time being in a dispute with her on the usenet, in 2006, so this is three years old. I have never been blocked because of this.

I can't access my actual edits on Barbara Schwarz, so I can't defend myself there (especially the accusation that I was told of a CoI and kept editing), but I know that I take great care to use a "neutral" language when on wikipedia. Although a scientology critic, I have always been careful to respect WP:NPOV when editing, i.e. to avoid using inflammatory language. This is why I have been blocked only once in 2006 for two hours because of a 3RR mistake.

Amusingly, because the topic ban also applies to the discussion pages of scientology related articles, I am also prohibited on talking about Tilman Hausherr or Xenu's Link Sleuth, despite being an obvious expert on these. (I am aware that editing on the articles is of course always a no-no)

According to this article citing one "Dan Rosenthal", there is only one of the banned critics who hasn't been reinstated, so this is me... --Tilman (talk) 20:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Touretzky

Despite what Dan Rosenthal said in the LA Times article Tilman cites, I've seen no evidence that any banned users have been reinstated. Both Antaeus Feldspar and I have appealed our bans, as Tilman is doing now. No progress to report yet. -- Touretzky (talk) 01:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Swatjester

The statement in question was made by the LA Times, not me. I did not state to them anything of the sort. ⇒SWATJester 04:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Also as far as I'm aware, only 2 people were banned, one of which was already banned: John254, and Justallofthem. So I'm not entirely sure what this complaint is about. Topic-banning is not the same thing as a site-ban. ⇒SWATJester 04:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

In case it isn't clear from the above, I am Dan. ⇒SWATJester 06:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

So, have you asked them to print a correction which will tell the readers what you really told them (assuming that you did communicate with them at all)? --Tilman (talk) 14:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Antaeus Feldspar

"Topic-banning is not the same thing as a site-ban." They only differ in scope. Both of them send the blatant message: "This user is so wholly destructive and intractable that only brute force will curb their disruption." This claim becomes hard to support if we look at, for instance, Special:Contributions/Touretzky: it is hard to see how an editor who had not made any edits at all for over thirteen months prior to the start of the case represented such a threat of disruption that it justified such a drastic and stigmatizing response. This was not an isolated fluke; Touretzky is not the only such editor whose record shows over a year of inactivity, whether on the topic of Scientology or on all topics, before being abruptly labeled an imminent threat to Misplaced Pages whose purported disruption could only be neutralized with brute-force action. -- Antaeus Feldspar (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

Tilman, I notice you haven't done much editing in the past year. A word of advice. Take some articles in a topic other than Scientology to Good Article or better, Featured Article status during the next six months or so. That will show that you're intentions here are to build an encyclopedia. Then, nicely and politely, request that the topic ban be lifted. Cla68 (talk) 07:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not a writer, especially not in the english language, so I'm not good/fast enough in writing long texts. My main edit activity here were always small, sourced improvements. The constructive and cooperative culture that was fun in the beginning stopped a few years ago, which is why working for wikipedia is no longer something I'd spend hours on. If I'd really be so hot on editing the scientology topics, I'd used this solution long ago instead of arguing :-) --Tilman (talk) 14:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• To clarify the Arb's statements below (since other similar requests have been archived), all editors who have ever heavily pushed a POV in a disruptive manner were topic banned, regardless of activity. If you are not active in the area, this should not affect you, and is a moot point. Other similar requests have been declined. Hersfold 00:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Per observations made by me and my colleagues in the other similar current requests.  Roger Davies 21:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
• Per Roger. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• People who wish to edit or discuss Scientology-related articles through a closed proxy listed in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject on closed proxies for reasons discussed in said WikiProject's project page.
• Operators of these closed proxies:
  • Celarnor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified in this edit)
  • OverlordQ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (notified in this edit)

Statement by Damian Yerrick

Remedy 8 ("Editors instructed") requires users "(B) To edit only through a conventional ISP and not through any form of proxy configuration". However, some Internet service providers run all users' Internet connections through a proxy. This includes or included AOL and the only ISP in Qatar (see WP:SIP). Other Internet service providers, such as all ISPs in the People's Republic of China (see WP:TOR), use other forms of connection filtering, and users of those ISPs cannot view or edit Misplaced Pages except through proxies. On behalf of people affected by an ISP's proxy, I request an explanation of why these people should remain topic-banned.

Statement by OverlordQ

The method currently described by the pages on WP:WOCP has not worked since CentralAuth was enabled, as such mine has never been online, nor had any users. Q 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Note that the preamble to the remedy 8 rulings limits them to "edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed:" — Rlevse • Talk • 12:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
• I was inactive on this case, and I may not quite grasp the technical material being discussed here, so I will defer to those of my colleagues that were active on the case, and to those who can answer the technical questions better than I could. Carcharoth (talk) 14:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
• I believe the purpose of this remedy is to reduce the prevalence of socking and mischief on these articles by ensuring that each editor on the pages edits from only a single account and does not use commonly used methods such as proxying to disguise editing through multiple accounts, editing despite a topic ban, etc. If there is a real issue with the remedy winding up having the effect of preventing non-problematic editors from editing these articles despite having engaged in no misconduct, then a modification of the remedy may be in order. Before doing so, I think we would want to know that the issue is real rather than theoretical, so a more detailed explanation of the affected editor(s)' situation may be helpful to us (this can be submitted via e-mail rather than on-wiki if there are privacy issues involved). Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• I'm going to state outright that I would not interpret that a proxy imposed by a normal, commercial or national ISP is "editing through a proxy configuration" by any reasonable interpretation: that remedy was directed at those who would seek to "anonymize" their editing by circumventing normal IP routing. This does, however, include usage of TOR or anonymizing proxies. — Coren  01:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• I agree with Coren. Use of tor or anonymising proxies or other open proxies is not acceptable. Known commercial or national ISPs are not included. Risker (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
• Newyorkbrad frames it well. I also agree with Coren. -- FayssalF - 20:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
• Newyorkbrad explains the "why" quite well. However most of the scenarios given are not topic banned. Here is an overview:
  • Misplaced Pages:WikiProject on closed proxies is not operational, so that appears to be a non-issue
  • private customers of ISPs like Qtel are not restricted simply because of the way their network is set up
  • editing Scientology via TOR is prohibited, however if someone can demonstrate to the Arbitration Committee that they have a valid reason to edit via TOR, such as Internet censorship, we committee will review the request privately.
  John Vandenberg 13:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with NYB, Risker, ect. A national ISP is fine, but anonymization is not. Cool Hand Luke 16:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with the above arbs comments. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with the above arbs comments. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Request to amend prior case: Scientology

Initiated by Anynobody(?) at 22:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Scientology arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Anynobody and Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Anynobody topic-banned and restricted

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Anyeverybody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
  • (On other wikis and here until I created a super complicated password which I made my browser memorize, and subsequently forget when I forgot to migrate my passwords before moving to a new hard drive I edited as Anynobody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) Anynobody(?) 02:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Amendment request

• I'd like to resume editing Scientology related articles (most interested in Hubbard's military service but am also interested in unrestricetd editing again). The board found that I was POV pushing in 2007 when #1 I uploaded primary source documents regarding L. Ron Hubbard's service in the Navy during WW II and #2 needlessly harassed another editor.

Statement by Anynobody

• Regarding #1: The documents were official USN records which showed Hubbard had misrepresented his naval career during the conflict and claimed awards he did not receive. Since the source is verifiable, reliable, and neutral (the USN has no agenda) I felt the records deserved inclusion. (Hubbard claimed to be a naval hero, in order to be truly NPOV the navy's side of things should be represented too.)

• Regarding #2: I'm not looking to have this changed, but I feel compelled to respond given the way the finding was written. I only mention it here because anyone looking into my part of this case will certainly notice the board's finding and might wonder about my side of the story. In my opinion the other editor was engaged more in defending his faith as a Scientologist than editing according to the rules. In a nutshell I participated in numerous discussions on WP:ANI and attempted to set up a WP:RFC/U on his behavior which was stopped by an involved administrator who said my attempts to go through with it despite their disagreement (I wanted outside comments from non-involved people) were harassment. The arbcom agreed and instructed me to stay away from him after the 2007 case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS which I thought I had abided by.

• Summary: When I was topic banned in 2009 I had become accustomed to citing almost every post I made to a Scientology article if I wanted it to actually stay in. The arbcom cited evidence from 2007, when I first started editing as being the reason for the ban. As long as I ensure that any edits I make to Hubbard's or any other Scientology article are cited by an acceptable source, and include all relevant information from them then NPOV will be maintained. So I'm asking the arbcom to let me edit those topics again.

Reply to Coren

I'm really not into edit warring and already practice a version of 1RR: If I add something sans a source which gets removed, I won't try restoring it until a good source can be found (since I don't edit as much as I used to this usually means a day or so.) I'm also not a fan of reverting edits without discussion. If I had a good source to begin with and my edit is removed without a logical reason I first add a section to the talk page explaining why my edit was valid regarding relevant policies/guidelines and then revert the article (usually trying different verbiage) noting to check talk page in the edit summary. Most people will then proceed to a discussion on the talk page where either I am convinced to remove the edit or the other editor is persuaded my original edit was ok.

• • To sum up: I totally believe 3rr is unnecessary in dealing with good faith editors, but sometimes due to confusion one revert may be constructive. Anynobody(?) 19:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Luke

Actually the docs I uploaded, were for the most part* discussed in this secondary source about Hubbard's service and his claims regarding it called Ron the War Hero. For example most of the documents I uploaded come from this page on the site about Hubbard's claimed sub kills. *An exception would be the ASW-1 form I uploaded, which was not found on the site. That was uploaded in case anyone reading Admiral Fletcher's report wondered what he meant by saying PC-815's report was not in accordance with ASW-1.

• • The graphics were simply meant to illustrate topics discussed, for example the text referred to two separate DD-214 forms listing two different sets of awards and commendations. We usually list these in articles about military personnel, for example Richard Stephen Ritchie#Awards and decorations. Thanks to Hubbard there can't be only one list, since he claimed to have earned these awards we have to mention that (even the one's which he couldn't have gotten or didn't exist.)

• • • To sum up: None of this is original research because it came from a secondary source and I'm not saying Hubbard was liar. In fact I don't remember stating anywhere in an article that Hubbard was an outright liar in those words, nor did I imply he was somehow mistaken or trying to come up with other explanations why his war claims aren't backed up by any reliable sources. Though I can't argue the existence of so many contradictions does give one that impression, but remember this isn't my original research, it comes from a secondary source backed by primary documents. Anynobody(?) 20:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Roger Davies

I'm not saying I was perfect, I certainly wouldn't add a reference like Admiral Weneker's report about Japanese subs not commerce raiding off the US coast as a response to Scientology claims that the Japanese were in the area often.

• Per CHL... CHL probably didn't realize when he wrote his reply that the primary docs he points to came from a secondary source Misplaced Pages was using before I even started editing: Version of this page, as edited by BTfromLA (talk | contribs) at 04:54, 21 November 2006 back when Hubbard's military career was a subsection of his article.
  Further, Wikipediatrix carried it over when she created the article specifically about his career: Version as edited by Wikipediatrix (talk | contribs) at 15:10, 25 May 2007.
  I totally understand, given the amount of work you do as an arbcom member and the usual attitude of people asking for editing rights who don't seem to think they've done anything wrong must be frustrating. Please understand I can't find anywhere where it says we can't upload primary documents referred to by (and here actually in) a secondary source being used as a reference.

• I'd also like to see considerably more activity in other areas before revisiting this. I spend a majority of my time supporting the project with graphics used on wikis all over the world, are you saying I should put more time into editing articles rather than illustrating them? Anynobody(?) 02:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Something else to consider

Fellow Wikipedians I started editing here in January 2007 and during the few months made some mistakes based on misunderstanding our rules. (Let's call them the early 2007 errors) By the time I was involved in the first Scientology case in July 2007 I thought I had done a good job of editing within policy and put the early 2007 errors behind me. The arbcom didn't seem concerned I was still making the same editing errors: Issue addressed was unrelated to editing articles. (It's also relevant to mention I completely refrained from contacting the other editor as mandated by the arbcom in that case.) By mid 2008 I had certainly come to understand how WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, and WP:CITE work: Diff I think that's rational, bearing in mind that some use of CoS sources is necessary only to report their major assertions about him discussed in secondary sources. However CoS information which has not been in a relevant secondary source is probably unacceptable. (I should mention that I know the same standard applies to any source.)

In May 2009, citing my early 2007 errors, the arbcom topic banned me from editing Scientology topics. If the concern is that I'll go back to making the same early 2007 errors, creating WP:SYNTH, and getting involved with edit disputes I promise that is definitely not the case because I wasn't doing those things in 2009 when I was banned. (This is why I may come off as arrogant or unrepentant here, being punished for mistakes made two years earlier that have not been repeated since, is incredibly frustrating!) Anynobody(?) 00:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Was not active on this case, and sufficient numbers of those active on this case are still on the Committee, so leaving it to them to review this (i.e. staying inactive on this one, and noting it here for the purposes of any motions that might be proposed). Carcharoth (talk) 13:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
• Anyeverybody, would you be willing to also abide by a 1RR on Scientology-related topics? — Coren  14:54, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
• You seem to be defending editing which was almost textbook definition OR, particularly WP:SYN (Hubbard said this, but I have primary sources and user-created graphics to advance the position he was a liar). I'm reluctant to lift the topic ban for this reason. Cool Hand Luke 15:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
• Per CHL. I'd also like to see considerably more activity in other areas before revisiting this.  Roger Davies 17:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
• Per those above. SirFozzie (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Numbering of remedies

Can the numbering or contents be fixed so that section 15.3.7 isn't remedy 8? I don't care which, but it would be nice if it were consistent. Thanks.Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's avoidable (unless a manually created contents section can be created, but even then, that would be counterproductive). The remedy numbers stay identical to how they appeared on the proposed decision page so that both the proposed decision and final decision correspond. But beyond that, the idea is to avoid highlighting the proposals which did not receive enough support to be published on the final decision page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

moved from log of actions

• • Due to his creation of Misplaced Pages:Neutrality in Scientology, and his activity in numerous CoS-related articles, I've asked Scott MacDonald to stop enforcing this probation.   Will Beback  talk  05:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)