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Revision as of 02:09, 3 February 2011

This talk page is only for discussion of the dispute over ownership of the islands; any discussion of the islands—outside of material directly relating to the dispute—should be discussed at Talk:Senkaku Islands. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Proposed section and table

Just after the introduction and before the dispute discussion begins, would it be helpful to add a "Geography" section with the following table? Note that Chinese names come first in this table.

Geography

Maybe this is not the way to handle this. Could this be a consructive step? --Tenmei (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Some of the disputed aspects of this section are mirrored at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Dual-name usage in text, captions and table. --Tenmei (talk) 17:27, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Geography section intro sentences

The previous sentence said that a dispute about the names is a proxy for a larger dispute. Unless there is a reliable source making this claim, then it's original research and cannot be included. Furthermore, I don't even think it's true--it makes it sound like the main public debate is about the names, and that that debate is hiding the deeper territorial debate. But in every bit of research I've done for this and the main article, the actual issue is always portrayed as a territorial dispute, with the name dispute being secondary. That is, this debate is not the same as the Sea of Japan naming dispute. China does not go to international conferences, diplomatic settings, or news reports and argue "These islands should be called Diaoyu!" Instead, they go to these settings and say "These islands belong to China!" Thus, there's no "proxying" going on here. If someone has a reliable source that uses that terminology, then I suppose we can consider including that, although it probably belongs in a section other than Geography. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I also raised this point in the Tenmei's thread in Talk:Senkaku Islands. As you said, the naming is only a dispute amongst we editors and is not actual matter of dispute between China and Japan. Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Re-formatted inline note

Perhaps this format will make it easier to discuss a disputed article in a reliable source? In this format, the MOFA web page is the core of the supporting citation; and redundant clarity or emphasis is provided by: restatement + and see + compare. --Tenmei (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The noun concatenation may help to describe this parsed format. --Tenmei (talk) 23:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, there is no "dispute". The translation is totally wrong and the claims based on that translation are also wrong. Yes, there were many Japanese sources that believed it, but so did many American Republican media believed Obama to be a Muslim.

The matter was beyond settled (and you were there when we discussed it) but it appeared User:Oda Mari and User:John Smith's loved the false information so much that they'd do anything to present it as truth.

If you would like to convince me of your good faith and editorial integrity, you can start by removing all contents and references associated with that Remin Ribao article. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:37, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2 -- This may a good time to remind you of something you already know. The first paragraph at WP:V explains:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth-— that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING — which is a wiki-speak way of echoing what John Smith's meant when he suggested "put the spade down and stop digging" here.

Perhaps you might consider alternative approaches:

• No — these words are poking

• Oda Mari and John Smith's "loved the false information so much that they'd do anything to present it as truth"
• Tenmei ... "to convince me of your good faith and editorial integrity, you can start by removing"

• Better — these words encourage collaborative editing

• Reliable source citations which contradict or rebut the explicit and verifiable support for one sentence about a January 8, 1953 article in People's Daily include ....

Bobthefish2 -- your recent edits and your future choices are paired with unsurprising consequences. --Tenmei (talk) 07:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, I don't like your "concatenated" form of citation because (1) it makes unable to reuse the citation for other part as you experienced this time. (2) it decrease the readability. However if you accept my modification to the citation, I accept your format only in this case. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The concatenated citation format was removed here. --Tenmei (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Revert

This edit here restored text that Bobthefish2 blanked out. Bobthefish2 -- Please "stop digging".Bobthefish2 -- Please re-think your confrontational strategy; and please reconsider how your recent edits and your future choices are paired with unsurprising consequences. --Tenmei 17:52, 30 January 2011

Next step towards agreement

• WP:MULTI

The "Good practices" sub-section at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines suggests:

• Avoid posting the same thread in multiple forums. This fragments discussion of the idea. Instead, start the discussion in one location, and, if needed, advertise that in other locations using a link. If you find a fragmented discussion, it may be desirable to move all posts to one location, and linking to it. Make sure you state clearly in edit summaries and on talk pages what you have done and why.

It is probably best to leave our archives undisturbed; and instead, relevant excerpts are consolidated in a collapsed format below:

• WP:EXHAUST

The "Good practices" sub-section at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines suggests

• Keep discussions focused: Discussions naturally should finalize by agreement, not by exhaustion.

No agreement about an article in the People's Daily has been achieved — see above.

The Wikisource text helps us move beyond this exhausting distraction.

• Chinese Wikisource: 琉球群岛人民反对美国占领的斗争
• Japanese Wikisource: 琉球群島人民による反米闘争
• English Wikisource: Senkaku Islands 1953

External links

• 《人民日报》1953年、台湾《联合报》1968年关于钓鱼岛的报道（簡体字）
• 琉球群島人民反對美國佔領的鬥爭 《人民日報》1953年1月8日4頁（繁体字）

This "new" information confirms the verified reliable source citations which are already incorporated in the article text.

In the absence of credible support for refutation or counterargument, no reasonable cause for continued disagreement exists. --Tenmei (talk) 17:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Overload! Look, I fully accept that Bobthefish2 thinks the translation is wrong. Heck, I even believe that it's very likely that it's wrong. I believe him (and another editor, I think San9663?) about six and a half thousand times more than I believe Google Translate. In fact, Google translate is essentially useless for anything other than a very broad picture, and we're dealing here with the exact translation of a few very specific words. There's a reason why human translators still make a lot of money despite the existence of (terrible) free translation software and (slightly better than terrible) non-free translation software. So your addition there doesn't help settle the issue (btw, could you collapse the Chinese text and translations? They don't really help us understand the right way forward).

The problem is, (as Bobthefish2 and I have been discussing on his talk page, is that we have reliable sources that say otherwise. The biggest problem is that one of those reliable sources is from a University Press, which is near the top tier of Misplaced Pages sources. We can "dismiss" the Japanese sources, as they're obviously partisan--at best, they tell us what the Japanese government thinks the article meant. However, I do have a question about the book--does anyone have a copy or can anyone get a copy? That section has a citation/footnote, but it's not in the free Google download of the book. I'm interested to see if they author directly cites Remin Ribao directly, or if the author cites one of the Japanese translations (as this could effect the reliability of that claim).

The other thing is, is there anyone who has any reliable source (i.e., not another Misplaced Pages editor) which states that the Japanese translation is wrong? If so, I think we can easily solve the problem by saying "Some sources, such as researcher X and the Japanese government, claim that a 1953 Remin Ribao article indicated that... (ref ref ref); however, source Y says that that interpretation is a mistranslation of the original text, which actually meant...(ref)." That would perfectly contextualize the issue--the point is, we show that Japan has made a certain claim, and that that claim may be incorrect. That's kind-of the point behind having a dispute article--that we don't just include the "evidence" from the different sides that's "right", but we provide a wide selection of different evidence. We're trying to describe the "dispute", not the underlying issue of who really does "own" the islands.

Or, in other words, what I'm trying to say is that I believe Bobthefish2 that the Chinese was mistranslated, but I'm loathe to abandon WP:V just based on AGF-ing him. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Geography Section

I propose that the table in the geography section be removed, and replace with {{Main|Senkaku Islands#Geography|Senakuku Islands geography}}, plus a 2-3 prose sentences, stating approximately where the islands are (latitude/longitude), total number, and total area. The whole point of having this (the dispute) article is that we should include all of the general information at Senkaku Islands and only the information which strictly relates to the dispute belongs here. See, for example, how Sea of Japan naming dispute has no geography section (including info only in the lead), Kuril Islands dispute includes no geographic info outside of the map, and Cyprus dispute contains no geographic information at all. In fact, now that I've looked at those examples, I'd prefer to completely removing the geography section, but would consider a "Main" template + short prose to be a not-horrible compromise. Does anyone support keeping the table? Does anyone support removing the whole section? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The geography section should not exist due to lack of relevance. The only possible reason to keep it is if Tenmei moves the sea boundary materials to this page (which he should). Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's not put this in terms of what Tenmei should or should not do—that makes it sound as if xe has some sort of special right or responsibility to make changes to the two articles. If consensus says the section should be removed, then it should be removed, whether or not Tenmei agrees. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No. Of course he doesn't have special rights, but it'd be much better if he can learn to listen and clean up after himself. After all, those changes were introduced by him. Have you realized how much time we wasted just to dispute those changes he made a while ago (i.e. making copies of tables, removing chinese columns, etc)? I'd much rather prove a point to him so that we don't have to go through this again than having to request consensus on every petulant change he makes. I am sure you'd, by now, realize how exceedingly difficult it is when it comes to getting a consensus on removing pro-Japanese or anti-Chinese contents. I really hate to refer things as anti/pro-Chinese/Japanese, but that's what they are most of the time (and this page is about a dispute between China and Japan). Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but, in this case, this table is neither pro-Japanese or pro-Chinese--it includes both, and, I think, this article should include neither (as I expressed above). As I'm a big fan of not getting these pages locked, I'm going to wait a day before removing the section, but will proceed with doing so absent a consensus to keep the section in. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of getting these pages locked either. However, I also do not like having to police these pages when I am confident that all that will come out of it is inaccurate information. I can, of course, leave this page to the wolves, but the notion of getting it locked with an admin controlling the editorial process is a good alternative to that. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei has made changes to try to demonstrate that the names are "in dispute". I disagree with xyr interpretation of that article. The LDP (in the article) isn't opposed to the names--they're opposed to Google listing the names, which is Google's way of saying that the territories are in dispute. If you look at the actual quote from the LDP, their point is that "the Senkaku Islands are under the effective control of Japan in both history and the international law." That is, they are disputing Googles (implied) claim that the ownership of the islands is in dispute, not a claim about the names themselves. In any event, the chart is still not the right way to present this information, as demonstrated by the other dispute article I listed above. This particular historical point is already covered in the 2010 section of the dispute chronology. I say, the table (and section) should still go. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It appears that Tenmei has not said a word yet and is still adding things. Bobthefish2 (talk) 16:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it would be sensible to remove the table, instead relying on the one at the main article. Qwyrxian has made some good points above. John Smith's (talk) 10:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to remove the table. I'm going to rename the section, "The islands," include a hatnote directing people to the Geography section in the other other article, and leave a 1-3 sentence summary here. If I can find a place, I'll move Tenmei's recent addition about what he perceives as a name dispute; if I can't find a place, I'll leave it here for future reference. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:31, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's what I removed: "The names of these islands and rocks have become the subject of an unresolved controversy.".

I put the first reference into the last line of the "2010" section. I replaced the reference that was previously there, because the previous reference is an opinion/analysis piece, therefore not as good a reference per WP:RS. The second reference cannot be in this article, as it is about the Spratly Islands, and including that here is a direct and obvious violation of WP:SYNTHESIS. Nothing in that article mentions the Senkaku Islands, and we are absolutely forbidden from trying to "contextualize" this issue (The SI dispute) in some sort of wider East Asian dispute unless a reliable source already does that. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Alternate approaches

Former name of this thread was "Efforts to calm the dispute" section.--Tenmei (talk) 01:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What's going on with this section? It doesn't make any sense to me. I feel like we should be able to include the first reference (the Edward Miles book) elsewhere (probably at the very end of the "Beginnings" section). I don't know what the Deng Xiaoping quote is meant to do, or why it belongs anywhere in the article, but maybe it just needs a better placement and context. In any event, the section is definitely mistitled, because the Miles reference itself makes it clear that it wasn't about "calming the dispute"; rather, both sides just agreed not to talk about it. To me, in a section titled "Efforts to calm the dispute", I would expect to read about specific negotiations, conferences, bi-lateral efforts, etc., that were specifically and intentionally directed at reducing tensions about the dispute. If we don't have any examples of such efforts, then I think the section should go. However, I do think that on the Xiaoping quote, I'm missing something, so I appreciate input. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This diff should not be archived.

both sides just agreed not to talk about it

I would expect to read about specific negotiations, conferences, bi-lateral efforts, etc., that were specifically and intentionally directed at reducing tensions about the dispute. If we don't have any examples of such efforts, then I think the section should go.

This thread needs to remain on the active talk page despite conventional archiving practices. --Tenmei (talk) 15:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I also don't see the point with it. The issue seems to flare up every so often, so are leaders on both sides calming things down? Deng was speaking nearly 40 years ago. John Smith's (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, probably you got your diffs wrong; all you linked to was the diff of me changing the section title, which I did because I thought people might think I meant "This is a new section on the talk page designed to decrease dispute on the talk page," when what I meant was "This is a new section on the talk page about the section in the article called "Efforts to end the dispute." In any event, do you have any actual comment about whether or not that section should stay? Qwyrxian (talk) 21:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, please stop adding in links to my posts. Those links have nothing to do with what I commented, I find them distracting, and it looks like I said something I didn't say. I've asked this before--please do not edit any other person's comments; if you think such an edit is necessary, you may request they do it, but you may not do it yourself, per WP:TPO. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian -- I am not obliged to accept the false premise of your question. Your questions are an attempt to establish and solidify a perceptual transformation and paradigm; and as such, it does not enhance our prospects for collaborative editing in the future.

This broad-stroke edit strategy is undermined by WP:Burden and by verifying inline citations which are individually and cumulatively clear, credible and persuasive.

In other words, you don't "get it." Okay.

John Smith's doesn't "get it." Okay.

You propose to throw out the baby with the bath water. Not okay.

I cannot concur. Nor do I concur that this section urgently demands our attention before addressing the other active issues which have been engaged in the threads above. --Tenmei (talk) 23:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Now the section is titled "Alternate approaches." Alternate to what? It can't be an "alternate approach" unless there is a "main approach." Unless you mean that the alternate to arguing is to...not argue? I can kind-of understand how the latter part (a cooperative approach) is a an alternate, but not what Xiaopeng says (which, is, basically, let's talk about it later). Also, the big fat side quote is a clear WP:MOS violation--we're an encyclopedia, not a weekly/monthly news magazine. And you want to tackle other issues? You're welcome to--we can work on things simultaneously, as long as we keep each issue in separate threads. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Not a violation of WP:MOS -- not because of the formatting. The quote template would not exist if it were violative of wiki-policy. As for the other parts of your diff, Your framing limits the range of response. Please feel free to draft a different heading for this section; but I encourage you to restrain the impulse to blank it out entirely --Tenmei (talk) 03:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My first time seeing Tenmei writing anything resembling standard English. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING -- see context here for zero tolerance. --Tenmei (talk) 04:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

You could've used one short sentence to communicate your protest against my compliment. Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Would you two stop, please? If either of you is too irritated with the other to respond civilly, then just stop commenting to the other. Neither backhanded compliments nor over-linking is helping the issue. Every time we stop to comment on other people's motives or style of writing, we get drawn away from improving the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING -- see context here for zero tolerance. --Tenmei (talk) 05:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding just the quotation itself, Rquote and cquote are to be used for pull quotes, and, as such, belong (per the documentation) in places like essays. Quoting from the documentation of cquote, "NOTE: This template should not be used for block quotations in article text. " For that matter, this quotations isn't even eligible for block quote, because it's not 4 or more lines long, as specified in WP:MOSQUOTE. So I'm going to convert it back into a regular quotation, while we continue to discuss what to do with this section. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that "efforts to calm dispute" is kind of irrelevant. We can condense it into the "Reaction of ROC/PRC" but this certainly does not deserve an unique section. Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

1. Geospatial Information Authority of Japan (GSI), 魚釣島 (Uotsuri Jima).
2. GSI, 久場島 (Kuba Jima).
3. GSI, 大正島 (Taishō Jima).
4. Google Maps, 南小島 (Minami Kojima)
5. Google Maps, 北小島 (Kita Kojima); GSI, 北小島 (Kita Kojima).
6. GSI, 沖ノ北岩 (Okino Kitaiwa).
7. GSI, 沖ノ南岩 (Okino Minami-iwa).
8. GSI, 飛瀬 (Tobise).
9. Ogura, Junko. "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands," CNNWorld (US). October 14, 2010; Google urged to drop China name for disputed islands," China Post (ROC). October 15, 2010; compare Saleem, O. (2000). "The Spratly Islands Dispute: China Defines the New Millennium," American University International Law Review, Vol. 15, p. 530.; excerpt, "The struggle among various countries to name the islands is an attempt to establish and solidify a perceptual transformation and paradigm for vested property interest or ownership of the islands."

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