Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:52, 27 February 2006

I added a lot of information on the history and development of underwear today. However, I was unable to find any information on this history for non-Western cultures. Anyone who has such information is urged to add to the article!

I tried to maintain as much of the original article as possible, albeit revised greatly and shuffled around. I ended up cutting the bit about President Clinton since I didn't think it was pertinent to a broad overview such as this. Anyone who feels otherwise is free to reinsert it, but I don't know where it would fit best. BrianSmithson 05:32 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, yeah -- I was also unable to find out when modern women's panties became available. My guess is that they came in about the same time as men's briefs, but I couldn't find any information on this. (Search Google and see what you get for "history of panties" or "history of panty." :) 207.254.220.138 16:06 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Bustle

We should be careful about saying the bustle "went out of fashion for good" as, as improbable as it seems today, we never know that in the more or less distant future there might be a resurgence. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:33, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Many problems with this article

I'm sorry to have to be critical, but this article is just RIFE with error, plus it's extremely ethnocentric. There are other folks in the world besides Westerners. It might also be better organized, with male and female sections better identified.

I corrected a few errors and then had to stop, due to lack of time. I will come back and work on this later, and also see if I can recruit user Katherine Shaw, who is much more knowledgeable than I am.

Knowing about underwear comes from hanging out with fantasy writers, SCAdians, and costumers, all of whom are interested in historically correct underwear. In fact, I may get stuck and have to go ask them for help! Zora 06:17, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PS. I just checked. I was wrong re cotton. According to this link it has been known for a long time, but because it required extremely time-intensive seed-removal, it was expensive and scarce. It wasn't common till after the cotton gin. THAT is what I was remembering. I knew there was a reason that European underclothing was made out of linen. Zora 06:41, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Double-seat briefs

A new user named JasonB has been adding all sorts of material re "double-seat briefs" to this article. He inserted a picture. He added the garment to the list of briefs, but at the top, not under brief. He then added a para about how wonderful these briefs are.

I can't figure out if he's a publicist for the double-seat brief industry, or if he just has a double-seat brief fetish. It's REALLY over the top! I removed the picture, removed the para, and edited and filed the listing under briefs. Zora 29 June 2005 23:55 (UTC)

Chastity belts

One editor recently changed the section re chastity belts to say that chastity belts were used, just not much. However, no evidence was cited for the change. Every history of costume source I've read says that it's an urban legend -- possibly derived from fevered and fetishistic imaginings. But of course if there's a reputable source, I'll restore the change. Zora 20:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Said editor was moi, evidence...blah

• From wikipedia Chastity belt:
• In 1889, a leather-and-iron belt was found by A. M. Pachinger—a German collector of antiquities—in Linz, Austria in a grave on a skeleton of a young woman. The woman was purportedly buried sometime in the 16th century. Pachinger, however, could not find any record of the woman's burial in the town archives. The belt itself, along with most of the rest of Pachinger's collection, has been lost.
• From others:
• The first written evidence of a chastity belt was recorded by Keyser von Eichstad, a retired solider who compiled a manuscript in 1405 about the art of war and military equipment. In his book "Bellifortis" he included a drawing of a chastity belt (picture below), with the inscription "Est florentinarum hoc bracile dominarum ferreum et durum ab antea sit reseratum" ("breeches of hard Florentine iron that are closed at the front").

If it's in a list of military equipment, couldn't it be an early athletic supporter/protector? Zora 22:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

This instrument dates back to 1400, when it appears in Italy under Francesco II from Carrara. It was mostly used in Italy, but it suddenly spread all over France as well. There have always been three different interpretations about its possible use. Some historians even state that the chastity belt was not an instrument aimed at inflicting suffering but on the contrary a particular device to prevent women (for example when their partner was away for a long time) from the possible risk of being raped. As chastity belts were mostly made of precious materials (inlaid silver with engravings), some historians assert they were given to women as a present from their husbands or lovers in order to encourage them to be faithful.

This material is not now in the Chastity belt article, which suggests that it has been deleted as unsourced. Zora 22:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

If we use medieval poetry as a reliable source, we discover that the use of chastity belts was often in consensus between both parties.

What poetry? Zora 22:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Now we come to a more controversial topic. Did medieval wives really wear chastity belts? They are, indeed, mentioned in many medieval poems and were supposed to be invented by the Italians. However, two British historians argue that they're nothing more than Victorian myths, and an example of a medieval chastity belt has been removed from the British Museum.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. There are a tonne of sources indicating they were factual, and a tonne of sources (mostly referencing the same two recent 'historians')(No offence meant on quote marks, just that it's not an entirely technical term that offers any real validity) that indicate the opposite. It seems wise to mention that they were not as widespread as popularily believed, but foolish to indicate that the theories of two historians are "fact" when there's quite a bit of evidence supporting the theory they *did* exist

Sorry, that is NOT a tonne of sources. That is one source, and it's not clear to me that it's sufficient to establish the "chastity belt" as an item of feminine wearing apparel. After looking at your argument, and the Chastity belt article, I'm willing to believe that if current-day folks get off on chastity belts, this might also have been true in the past, and that some older "BSDM-play" items might have survived -- much like the antique dildos featured in some collections of erotica. But it seems that costume historians themselves don't accept the supposed older chastity belts as anything other than later creations that have been backdated.

There's a similar problem in discussing the history of corsets, and tightlacing. Some costume historians used controversies carried on in the letter columns of newspapers and periodicals re tightlacing as examples of Victorian attitudes. Then a few wise souls pointed out that a lot of the letters seemed to have come from fetishists with strong imaginations who were thrilled to discuss their fetishes in public. The letters came from MEN. They didn't match what women were recording in their diaries and letters re corset use.

Perhaps we should change the chastity belt reference so that it says that there's a controversy, only, and refer readers to the chastity belt article. Zora 22:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Works for me, though I'd like to point out there *are* a tonne of sources, and what you say isn't in the Misplaced Pages article on chastity belts, still is...I just checked ;) (And no, I didn't edit anything :P) Sherurcij 02:03, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Briefs and sperm count

I hear from friends that wearing briefs lowers sperm count because the briefs keep the testes too close to the body and hence too hot for spermatogenesis. I also read somewhere on the internet that it doesn't really matter because all the sperm of a man is completely replaced every two years. Is there any medical doctor here who can confirm or invalidate these claims? Maybe a little something should be written about this issue under the briefs section.

I vote to merge

Crzrussian 00:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)