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Revision as of 08:54, 15 February 2011

This talk page is only for discussion of the dispute over ownership of the islands; any discussion of the islands—outside of material directly relating to the dispute—should be discussed at Talk:Senkaku Islands. Thank you for your cooperation.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Senkaku Islands was copied or moved into Senkaku Islands dispute with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Proposed section and table

Just after the introduction and before the dispute discussion begins, would it be helpful to add a "Geography" section with the following table? Note that Chinese names come first in this table.

Geography

Maybe this is not the way to handle this. Could this be a consructive step? --Tenmei (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Some of the disputed aspects of this section are mirrored at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Dual-name usage in text, captions and table. --Tenmei (talk) 17:27, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Geography section intro sentences

The previous sentence said that a dispute about the names is a proxy for a larger dispute. Unless there is a reliable source making this claim, then it's original research and cannot be included. Furthermore, I don't even think it's true--it makes it sound like the main public debate is about the names, and that that debate is hiding the deeper territorial debate. But in every bit of research I've done for this and the main article, the actual issue is always portrayed as a territorial dispute, with the name dispute being secondary. That is, this debate is not the same as the Sea of Japan naming dispute. China does not go to international conferences, diplomatic settings, or news reports and argue "These islands should be called Diaoyu!" Instead, they go to these settings and say "These islands belong to China!" Thus, there's no "proxying" going on here. If someone has a reliable source that uses that terminology, then I suppose we can consider including that, although it probably belongs in a section other than Geography. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I also raised this point in the Tenmei's thread in Talk:Senkaku Islands. As you said, the naming is only a dispute amongst we editors and is not actual matter of dispute between China and Japan. Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Re-formatted inline note

Perhaps this format will make it easier to discuss a disputed article in a reliable source? In this format, the MOFA web page is the core of the supporting citation; and redundant clarity or emphasis is provided by: restatement + and see + compare. --Tenmei (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The noun concatenation may help to describe this parsed format. --Tenmei (talk) 23:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, there is no "dispute". The translation is totally wrong and the claims based on that translation are also wrong. Yes, there were many Japanese sources that believed it, but so did many American Republican media believed Obama to be a Muslim.

The matter was beyond settled (and you were there when we discussed it) but it appeared User:Oda Mari and User:John Smith's loved the false information so much that they'd do anything to present it as truth.

If you would like to convince me of your good faith and editorial integrity, you can start by removing all contents and references associated with that Remin Ribao article. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:37, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2 -- This may a good time to remind you of something you already know. The first paragraph at WP:V explains:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth-— that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING — which is a wiki-speak way of echoing what John Smith's meant when he suggested "put the spade down and stop digging" here.

Perhaps you might consider alternative approaches:

• No — these words are poking

• Oda Mari and John Smith's "loved the false information so much that they'd do anything to present it as truth"
• Tenmei ... "to convince me of your good faith and editorial integrity, you can start by removing"

• Better — these words encourage collaborative editing

• Reliable source citations which contradict or rebut the explicit and verifiable support for one sentence about a January 8, 1953 article in People's Daily include ....

Bobthefish2 -- your recent edits and your future choices are paired with unsurprising consequences. --Tenmei (talk) 07:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, I don't like your "concatenated" form of citation because (1) it makes unable to reuse the citation for other part as you experienced this time. (2) it decrease the readability. However if you accept my modification to the citation, I accept your format only in this case. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The concatenated citation format was removed here. --Tenmei (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Revert

This edit here restored text that Bobthefish2 blanked out. Bobthefish2 -- Please "stop digging".Bobthefish2 -- Please re-think your confrontational strategy; and please reconsider how your recent edits and your future choices are paired with unsurprising consequences. --Tenmei 17:52, 30 January 2011

Next step towards agreement

• WP:MULTI

The "Good practices" sub-section at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines suggests:

• Avoid posting the same thread in multiple forums. This fragments discussion of the idea. Instead, start the discussion in one location, and, if needed, advertise that in other locations using a link. If you find a fragmented discussion, it may be desirable to move all posts to one location, and linking to it. Make sure you state clearly in edit summaries and on talk pages what you have done and why.

It is probably best to leave our archives undisturbed; and instead, relevant excerpts are consolidated in a collapsed format below:

• WP:EXHAUST

The "Good practices" sub-section at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines suggests

• Keep discussions focused: Discussions naturally should finalize by agreement, not by exhaustion.

No agreement about an article in the People's Daily has been achieved — see above.

The Wikisource text helps us move beyond this exhausting distraction.

• Chinese Wikisource: 琉球群岛人民反对美国占领的斗争
• Japanese Wikisource: 琉球群島人民による反米闘争
• English Wikisource: Senkaku Islands 1953

External links

• 《人民日报》1953年、台湾《联合报》1968年关于钓鱼岛的报道（簡体字）
• 琉球群島人民反對美國佔領的鬥爭 《人民日報》1953年1月8日4頁（繁体字）

This "new" information confirms the verified reliable source citations which are already incorporated in the article text.

In the absence of credible support for refutation or counterargument, no reasonable cause for continued disagreement exists. --Tenmei (talk) 17:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Overload! Look, I fully accept that Bobthefish2 thinks the translation is wrong. Heck, I even believe that it's very likely that it's wrong. I believe him (and another editor, I think San9663?) about six and a half thousand times more than I believe Google Translate. In fact, Google translate is essentially useless for anything other than a very broad picture, and we're dealing here with the exact translation of a few very specific words. There's a reason why human translators still make a lot of money despite the existence of (terrible) free translation software and (slightly better than terrible) non-free translation software. So your addition there doesn't help settle the issue (btw, could you collapse the Chinese text and translations? They don't really help us understand the right way forward).

The problem is, (as Bobthefish2 and I have been discussing on his talk page, is that we have reliable sources that say otherwise. The biggest problem is that one of those reliable sources is from a University Press, which is near the top tier of Misplaced Pages sources. We can "dismiss" the Japanese sources, as they're obviously partisan--at best, they tell us what the Japanese government thinks the article meant. However, I do have a question about the book--does anyone have a copy or can anyone get a copy? That section has a citation/footnote, but it's not in the free Google download of the book. I'm interested to see if they author directly cites Remin Ribao directly, or if the author cites one of the Japanese translations (as this could effect the reliability of that claim).

The other thing is, is there anyone who has any reliable source (i.e., not another Misplaced Pages editor) which states that the Japanese translation is wrong? If so, I think we can easily solve the problem by saying "Some sources, such as researcher X and the Japanese government, claim that a 1953 Remin Ribao article indicated that... (ref ref ref); however, source Y says that that interpretation is a mistranslation of the original text, which actually meant...(ref)." That would perfectly contextualize the issue--the point is, we show that Japan has made a certain claim, and that that claim may be incorrect. That's kind-of the point behind having a dispute article--that we don't just include the "evidence" from the different sides that's "right", but we provide a wide selection of different evidence. We're trying to describe the "dispute", not the underlying issue of who really does "own" the islands.

Or, in other words, what I'm trying to say is that I believe Bobthefish2 that the Chinese was mistranslated, but I'm loathe to abandon WP:V just based on AGF-ing him. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that I took long to join the discussion. I have to admit I didn't check this thread. It's so long and if I miss or misunderstand something, please point it out. Bobthefish2 wrote "The translation is totally wrong and the claims based on that translation are also wrong". Bobthefish2, would you please specify what part is wrongly translated? I mean one by one on sentence basis? I'm afraid your claim is too vague to understand/accept. I saw Phoenix7777 added a ref. to the article, I don't read it yet though. But can you accept it, Bobthefish2? Oda Mari (talk) 09:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer a reliable source that backs the translation is totally wrong. Then Bobthefish2 can add that refutation in "Arguments from PRC and ROC" section without removing the well sourced contents. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

This thread is too long because

Bobthefish2 argues in a way that persuades Qwyrxian. More important, it is too long because Qwyrxian is trying to foster collaborative editing by suggesting extraordinary and extreme AGF. Okay? --Tenmei (talk) 15:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Getting back to the point:

Bobthefish2 -- Now is the time to put your money where your mouth is or to put up or shut up. IMO, you MUST answer Oda Mari's questions here:

Bobthefish2, would you please specify what part is wrongly translated?

In fact, this all around the mulberry bush is about

• one sentence only in Senkaku Islands dispute, okay?
• one sentence only in the People's Daily article, okay?
• one part of the first sentence in the January 1953 article, okay?
• 包括尖閣諸島 ... is translated "including the Senkaku Islands", okay?

Let's work through this and move on. If you don't answer, what are we to think? --Tenmei (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Cumulative vs redundant reliable sources?

←I just reverted the new source Phoneix777 added, since it doesn't add any new support. That source explicitly states that its information is from the Japanese newspaper (if I understood it correctly), thus it's not really adding any new verification beyond the Japanese news articles already referenced there. Unless the source independently verified the Chinese source, I don't see any need in having yet one more. To be honest, I think that even some of the sources that are already there should be taken out (like that Q&A news article), but I didn't want to address that issue until we get a better handle on what's going on with the source overall. 11:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

←Qwyrxian, You don't have any privilege to remove a reliable source unless it is proved to be against WP:RS. Whether it adds any new fact isn't the reason to remove the reference. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

←Um, no. If that's what you think, you badly misunderstand both WP:RS and WP:V. Policies absolutely do not state that "all reliable sources must be added to articles." That would mean that every time anyone adds any reliable source to an article, it must stay forever. That's not only wrong, it's nonsensical. Are you saying I could go the library, and find 100 citations to encyclopedias or articles that state the exact latitude and longitude of the Senkaku Islands, and that once I add them all, they all stay? In fact, WP:RS and WP:V are exclusionary, not inclusionary. That is, they exist to define what may not be in an article, not to define what must be in an article. There are dozens of reasons to remove reliable sources from articles; one of them is that we don't need to duplicate information already in the article. Now, you're welcome to disagree with my revert, but, per standard BRD, it's up to you now to get consensus here on the talk page, not re-insert. I recommend starting a new section at the end of this page to discuss whether or not that reference belongs in the article. I'm going to remove it now until you get consensus to restore it. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

←I am afraid that your action here impairs your reputation established around the wikipedia. If you actually think you have a privilege to remove a reference because it adds nothing new, please educate me with a guideline or a policy. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

←That's impossible--you're asking me to prove a negative, because there is no policy that says, "All reliably sourced info must stay." Look at the wording on WP:V and WP:OR, which are the policies to which WP:RS relates. WP:V says, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." That is, paraphrasing, "we may only include information which is verified." It does not say, "All verifiable information must be included." Similarly, WP:OR states, "This means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed." It does not state, "All material which is attributable to a reliable published source must appear in an article."

Furthermore, I can find all sorts of information about situations in which it is acceptable to remove information found in a reliable source. WP:UNDUE, for instance, says that we don't include opinions from a reliable source if doing so would give them more prominence than the opinion deserves. WP:BLP restricts all sorts of reliable sources, if there is a violation of the presumption of privacy (for instance, we don't usually include the names of children of BLPs, even if we can reliably source them). We don't provide any of the myriad types of information found in WP:NOT, even if it can be reliably sourced.

Again, think of my example above: are you telling me that I can add 100 citations to all different encyclopedias about any given fact in an article, and, so long as they are all reliable? Obviously that's not our goal, so it must be plausible to cut reliable sources based on editorial judgment. Think about any article which uses news articles for sources; based on the way newspapers, particularly online ones, repeat the same based information over and over again, we could end up with several hundred citations on every fact on a historical article. Mind you, it would be wrong to cut the only source supporting something, or two sources which verify different aspects of a sentence/point, but we don't have to have all sorts of references that all say the same thing.

If you still really doubt me, we can take the question to either WP:RSN, or to the talk page of a relevant policy, like WP:V. I have seen editors far more experienced and with better "reputation" than I state essentially the same thing as I'm stating here. I would be happy to go find some if you don't believe all of my rationale here. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

←Sorry, one follow-up clarification: I said in an edit summary I'm 100% certain of my stance. I want to clarify that I'm not 100% certain that this specific RS shouldn't be in the article. What I am certain of is that the decision to keep the source is an editorial decision, that will require consensus; that is, I'm certain that is it not policy that once an RS is added to an article, it automatically gets to stay and policy says it can't be removed. All I want is for us to have a discussion about that source (obviously, I believe it doesn't belong), not just to have Phoenix7777 re-add it under the grounds that policy says I can't delete an RS. Finally, once we resolve this, I will happily collapse it (or we can just refactor it to a new section now, if Phoenix7777 agrees), since I know this isn't directly related to the topic of this seciton. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:59, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I have not heard of any policy that states RS' cannot be removed for any reasons. After all, RS' can be wrong and can be outdated. The only thing that's special about RS is that it is easier to be trusted and will not be automatically viewed as dubious.

In contrast to what User:Phoenix7777 suggested, I don't see how User:Qwyrxian is hurting his reputation by second guessing this RS of his. After all, anyone could've done the same, including myself. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

This sub-thread is too long because
Qwyrxian is trying to foster collaborative editing by suggesting extraordinary consideration and extreme AGF. Okay?

We are bending over backwards in the attempt to work with Qwyrxian. Multiple verified, reliable source citations are rejected by Bobthefish2 + Qwyrxian.

In other words, unsupported, non-specific allegations about mistakes in translation are hypothetically treated as if there were some valid reason for them -- extreme benefit of the doubt.

In another article, this would be insufficient. The fact that not one citation is added to support refutation or counterargument would resolve the dispute -- but not here.

Okay?

Phoenix7777 adds citations which explicitly rebuts the groundless argument which has been put forward.

In the unique context Bobthefish2 + Qwyrxian alone are responsible for creating, these citations must stay because the explicitly respond to the contrived argument about something wrong in translation. Okay? --Tenmei (talk) 15:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I found the sentence I've been looking for, from WP:NOT: "In any encyclopedia, information cannot be included solely for being true or useful." Then WP:NOT lists a bunch of specifics, but also explicitly says that the list is not exhaustive. In other words, just because something is reliable, doesn't mean it goes in. No response to Tenmei here (we can tackle it in another section), because xe's missing the point of the discussion between me and Phoenix7777. P7 says that I can't delete it because it is against policy to delete RS. I dispute this, and am 100% certain he is wrong. In fact, the points you (Tenmei) raise are exactly the ones I want to discuss. But, per BRD, I want to discuss them first before Phoenix re-adds the info. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian , please don't bring irrelevant essay WP:NOT. It is not intended for citations but contents. For citations, WP:RS says RS should stay and unRS shouldn't. WP:V says an irrelevant source should be removed, in other words, a relevant source shouldn't be removed. If you proposing a new criteria "If the source is RS and relevant but adds no value, it should be removed", please discuss at WP talk:RS and gain consensus there. Moreover, the source I added adds value because (1) The author is not Japanese while all others are Japanese. (2) It shows the claim was published in as old as 1996, while other source published recently. (3) because this sentence is disputed over its translation or wording, So the wording (probably by author not sankei shimbun) "Senkaku Islands as one of the subgroups of islands that constituted the Ryukyu Islands" adds new value to the sentence.
I am puzzled why you oppose the inclusion of the source ignoring the existent almost duplicated sources from Japanese government.

• Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, Q&A, Senkaku Islands, Q4/A4.3. "In addition, an article in the People's Daily dated 8 January 1953, under the title of "Battle of people in the Ryukyu Islands against the U.S. occupation", made clear that the Ryukyu Islands consist of 7 groups of islands including the Senkaku Islands."; retrieved 29 Jan 2011.
• Representative Office of Japan to PNA, Newsletter #2, November 2010; see Item 3; "... an article in the People’s Daily dated January 8, 1953, under the title of “Battle of people in the Ryukyu Islands against the U.S. occupation”, made clear that the Ryukyu Islands consist of 7 groups of islands including the Senkaku Islands"; accord Embassy of Japan in Israel, Newsletter #2, October 2010 see Item 4.

These quotes are exactly the same because they come from the official Japanese translation. If you oppose inclusion of either of the source, I would compromise to change the citation as follows.

• Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, Q&A, Senkaku Islands, Q4/A4.3. "In addition, an article in the People's Daily dated 8 January 1953, under the title of "Battle of people in the Ryukyu Islands against the U.S. occupation", made clear that the Ryukyu Islands consist of 7 groups of islands including the Senkaku Islands."; retrieved 29 Jan 2011.
  • See also Representative Office of Japan to PNA, Newsletter #2, November 2010; see Item 3. Embassy of Japan in Israel, Newsletter #2, October 2010 see Item 4.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

My dear Phoenix7777, there appears to be something very wrong with your reasoning. In the above post, you wrote:

WP:V says an irrelevant source should be removed, in other words, a relevant source shouldn't be removed.

This is a common logical fallacy that people commit, particular those not versed in areas of science, mathematics, and logic. Basically, you confused a material conditional with a logical biconditional. To put it in simpler terms, the fates of "relevant" sources and "irrelevant sources" are not required to be polar opposites of each other (i.e. stay vs. remove). Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Boobthefish2 is right (another way of saying it is mistaking necessity for sufficiency; or "going backwards across the arrow", or whatever you want to call it). Phoenix7777, can you please quote from me or point to the section of WP:RS that says that every reliable source should remain in the article? I promise you, you can't find it, because it's not there, because such a requirement wouldn't make sense. However, I will absolutely eat all of my words if you can show me anywhere in any policy anything that says "everything that is verified should stay" or "every reliable source should stay." Remember, your interpretation of policy would mean that I could add 100 sources to every single fact, so long as I could find them and prove they're reliable. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:54, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, you are right in your general discussion. However this discussion is whether my citation should stay or not. Are you sure you could gain consensus to remove that particular citation here? It is quite difficult to persuade others to remove a citation unless there is a quite obvious reason. I suggest you to consult an expert in appropriate places like WP:CITE, WP:RS or WP:V. Moreover the removal of the citation does nothing to improve the article. If you insist to discuss here, it is a waste of time. So I wouldn't respond your post unless you gain consensus at the above mentioned talk pages. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

You should consider reading other people's posts carefully. I believe Qwyrxian had stated a couple of times that the source your added is not contributing anything new to the article. His argument was that a source A already exists and you added a source B that directly reports what source A said.

At the same time, you should realize that reliable sources are not sacred artifacts. They do get changed or removed from articles. If each modification and removal merits an RfC or consensus vote, then I don't think anyone can do anything in Misplaced Pages.

By the way, before you decide to waste more time on this, I should remind you that your precious RS is still going to be gone once I decide to press the issue on the Remin Ribao article. Just give it up. Bobthefish2 (talk) 10:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you need consensus to add the citation. It wasn't there a few days ago, and you added it. That's great, and perfect editing. I reverted it, arguing that it isn't necessary. It's now up to you to explain why you think it is necessary. However, Btf2 has a point--not specifically that the Remin Ribao article has to come out, necessarily, but that we need to decide whether or not it needs to come out. For my part, I need to go back and read everything that's been said about it so far; I deliberately didn't follow the discussion before (I never intended to edit this article on a regular basis, but, such is life...), so I guess i need to see. I think we need a new section below. Once we work out what this sentence is doing in the article, and how to phrase it, we can choose which of the citations best support that statement. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:19, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

NO CAUSE for locking this article

Nihonjoe wrongly locked this article in order to avert an anticipated edit war; but there was no just cause at this time. At the time the page was locked, I was preparing the table below in answer to a reasonable question asked by Oda Mari. A secondary purpose in making this table was to rebut Qwyrxian wrongful deletion of a properly cited and relevant source.

The most relevant factor is that Bobthefish2 is supported by Qwyrxian in an impossible-to-defend claim with zero citation in support.

I don't understand how zero citation support trumps WP:V+WP:RS, but I do understand that Phoenix777 posted an arguably responsive citation which specifically addressed what I presume he thought was the core issue. Summarizing: In the cited article, the Foreign Minister of Japan explicitly "translated" key phrases of the People's Daily article which Bobthefish2 insists is mistranslated.

Phoenix777 created a crystal clear choice: WP:V+WP:RS vs. mere opinion. Nihonjoe's action effectively turns things upside down.

In effect, Nihonjoe's action announces that someehow Phoenix777 was very wrong, so wrong that drastic action is needed.

In the archived threads, we see in earlier diffs posted by Bobthefish2 and San9663 that translation is a red herring; nevertheless, in the spirit of collaborative editing, Phoenix777 was bending over backwards to help us all move forward. The purpose of the added citation deserves applause, not criticism.

Bottom line: Phoenix7777 edit was consistent with WP:Five Pillars In other words, Nihonjoe's judgment was not consistent with good policy nor was it in the best interests of our collaborative editing project.

IMO, Phoenix7777 edit and the table below are constructive responses to a unique situation. Qwyrxian argued:

"... in other words, what I'm trying to say is that I believe Bobthefish2 that the Chinese was mistranslated, but I'm loathe to abandon WP:V just based on AGF-ing him. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2011

Phoenix7777's diff was a measured response to the proposed status quo Qwyrxian sought to contrive; and indeed, I join Phoenix7777 in believing that WP:V+WP:RS must trump empty words.

I am glad to witness User:Tenmei writing more and more in the form of standard English. This renders it somewhat easier to convince myself to read his comments instead of ignoring them. *Thumbs up*

Anyhow, I don't see anything wrong with what User:Nihonjoe did. User:Qwyrxian found a cause to raise skepticism towards User:Phoenix7777's additions and requested WP:BRD. But for some reason, User:Phoenix7777 decided to ignore and persisted in re-adding the reference(s) in question. Even though he didn't break the 3R rule, he was basically edit-warring in spirit (not to mention the tag-teaming you guys did when I tried to remove something that we agreed on).

As for the references involved and the translation issue, it's pretty obvious. Even User:Oda Mari himself agreed that the reference to Okinawa was a red-herring. If you even pay attention to the University of Hawaii Press article which you guys cited, the logical fallacy involved is obvious (i.e. Ryukyu Islands != Okinawa and Okinawa Prefecture did not exist in 1953). The four of you can tell whatever lies you like about it and come up with any number of references that tell the same lie, but it doesn't change anything.

Shessh, I hate repeating myself. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I don't see anywhere on this "translation table" of User:Tenmei's that support the notion of the Remin Ribao referring the disputed islands as part of Japan or part of the Okinawa Prefecture -> This is the meat of the dispute. In case everyone's memory fell a bit short, this is what the University of Hawaii Press article said:

To make matters worse, when on January 8, 1953, Remin Ribao , the official propaganda organ for the Communist Party criticized the occupation of the Ryukyu Islands or (Okinawa Prefecture) by the United States, it stated that the Ryukyu Islands are located northeast of our Taiwan Islands... including Senkaku Shoto". According to this statement, the PRC recognized Diaoyu (J: Senkaku Islands) were a part of the Liuqiu Islands (Okinawa Prefecture). In other words, the Diaoyu Islands belonged neither to Taiwan nor to mainland China, but to Japan..

Note the text I bolded. Bobthefish2

Just to be comprehensive, I've quoted the content I found to be fraudulent on Senkaku Islands dispute:

The People's Daily, a daily newspaper, which is the organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC), had written that Senkaku islands is the part of Japanese territory in 1953. (Arguments from Japan section)

An article published by the Renmin Ribao in 1953. It listed "Senkaku Islands" as part of the (then) U.S.-occupied Ryuku Islands (Okinawa). (Figure caption)

It's kind of sad that I have to spell everything out over and over again (since October 2010), but somehow I doubt this will be the last. However, I hope this will convince at least Qwyrxian that he doesn't need to AGF to believe I am right. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't an "anticipated" edit war, it was one that was already in progress. This is a very controversial topic and everyone involved here is well aware of that fact. Constantly reverting each other because you don't agree with each other is NOT the way to go about things here on this hot topic. Also, locking the article in a particular state does not in any way endorse that state as somehow more correct than any other state. If you read the protection policy, you'll see that clearly spelled out there. Once you can come to a consensus on what needs to be done to the article, we can discuss unprotecting it. If you can't find a way to come to that consensus, then the article will remain protected indefinitely. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah...I wasn't keen on this article being locked, and I actually don't think it was an edit war: it was an Addition, revert, re-add, revert, re-add... That's really just 2 reverts each side...but, I can understand Nihonjoe's thinking given the history here. No real damage is done by having the article locked. I'd ask that everyone look to my new section at the bottom, because I think our ability to discuss things here has broken down and we need mediation. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Geography Section

I propose that the table in the geography section be removed, and replace with {{Main|Senkaku Islands#Geography|Senakuku Islands geography}}, plus a 2-3 prose sentences, stating approximately where the islands are (latitude/longitude), total number, and total area. The whole point of having this (the dispute) article is that we should include all of the general information at Senkaku Islands and only the information which strictly relates to the dispute belongs here. See, for example, how Sea of Japan naming dispute has no geography section (including info only in the lead), Kuril Islands dispute includes no geographic info outside of the map, and Cyprus dispute contains no geographic information at all. In fact, now that I've looked at those examples, I'd prefer to completely removing the geography section, but would consider a "Main" template + short prose to be a not-horrible compromise. Does anyone support keeping the table? Does anyone support removing the whole section? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The geography section should not exist due to lack of relevance. The only possible reason to keep it is if Tenmei moves the sea boundary materials to this page (which he should). Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's not put this in terms of what Tenmei should or should not do—that makes it sound as if xe has some sort of special right or responsibility to make changes to the two articles. If consensus says the section should be removed, then it should be removed, whether or not Tenmei agrees. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No. Of course he doesn't have special rights, but it'd be much better if he can learn to listen and clean up after himself. After all, those changes were introduced by him. Have you realized how much time we wasted just to dispute those changes he made a while ago (i.e. making copies of tables, removing chinese columns, etc)? I'd much rather prove a point to him so that we don't have to go through this again than having to request consensus on every petulant change he makes. I am sure you'd, by now, realize how exceedingly difficult it is when it comes to getting a consensus on removing pro-Japanese or anti-Chinese contents. I really hate to refer things as anti/pro-Chinese/Japanese, but that's what they are most of the time (and this page is about a dispute between China and Japan). Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but, in this case, this table is neither pro-Japanese or pro-Chinese--it includes both, and, I think, this article should include neither (as I expressed above). As I'm a big fan of not getting these pages locked, I'm going to wait a day before removing the section, but will proceed with doing so absent a consensus to keep the section in. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of getting these pages locked either. However, I also do not like having to police these pages when I am confident that all that will come out of it is inaccurate information. I can, of course, leave this page to the wolves, but the notion of getting it locked with an admin controlling the editorial process is a good alternative to that. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei has made changes to try to demonstrate that the names are "in dispute". I disagree with xyr interpretation of that article. The LDP (in the article) isn't opposed to the names--they're opposed to Google listing the names, which is Google's way of saying that the territories are in dispute. If you look at the actual quote from the LDP, their point is that "the Senkaku Islands are under the effective control of Japan in both history and the international law." That is, they are disputing Googles (implied) claim that the ownership of the islands is in dispute, not a claim about the names themselves. In any event, the chart is still not the right way to present this information, as demonstrated by the other dispute article I listed above. This particular historical point is already covered in the 2010 section of the dispute chronology. I say, the table (and section) should still go. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It appears that Tenmei has not said a word yet and is still adding things. Bobthefish2 (talk) 16:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it would be sensible to remove the table, instead relying on the one at the main article. Qwyrxian has made some good points above. John Smith's (talk) 10:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to remove the table. I'm going to rename the section, "The islands," include a hatnote directing people to the Geography section in the other other article, and leave a 1-3 sentence summary here. If I can find a place, I'll move Tenmei's recent addition about what he perceives as a name dispute; if I can't find a place, I'll leave it here for future reference. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:31, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's what I removed: "The names of these islands and rocks have become the subject of an unresolved controversy.".

I put the first reference into the last line of the "2010" section. I replaced the reference that was previously there, because the previous reference is an opinion/analysis piece, therefore not as good a reference per WP:RS. The second reference cannot be in this article, as it is about the Spratly Islands, and including that here is a direct and obvious violation of WP:SYNTHESIS. Nothing in that article mentions the Senkaku Islands, and we are absolutely forbidden from trying to "contextualize" this issue (The SI dispute) in some sort of wider East Asian dispute unless a reliable source already does that. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Alternate approaches

Former name of this thread was "Efforts to calm the dispute" section.--Tenmei (talk) 01:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What's going on with this section? It doesn't make any sense to me. I feel like we should be able to include the first reference (the Edward Miles book) elsewhere (probably at the very end of the "Beginnings" section). I don't know what the Deng Xiaoping quote is meant to do, or why it belongs anywhere in the article, but maybe it just needs a better placement and context. In any event, the section is definitely mistitled, because the Miles reference itself makes it clear that it wasn't about "calming the dispute"; rather, both sides just agreed not to talk about it. To me, in a section titled "Efforts to calm the dispute", I would expect to read about specific negotiations, conferences, bi-lateral efforts, etc., that were specifically and intentionally directed at reducing tensions about the dispute. If we don't have any examples of such efforts, then I think the section should go. However, I do think that on the Xiaoping quote, I'm missing something, so I appreciate input. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This diff should not be archived.

both sides just agreed not to talk about it

I would expect to read about specific negotiations, conferences, bi-lateral efforts, etc., that were specifically and intentionally directed at reducing tensions about the dispute. If we don't have any examples of such efforts, then I think the section should go.

This thread diff needs to remain on the active talk page despite conventional archiving practices. --Tenmei (talk) 15:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I also don't see the point with it. The issue seems to flare up every so often, so are leaders on both sides calming things down? Deng was speaking nearly 40 years ago. John Smith's (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, probably you got your diffs wrong; all you linked to was the diff of me changing the section title, which I did because I thought people might think I meant "This is a new section on the talk page designed to decrease dispute on the talk page," when what I meant was "This is a new section on the talk page about the section in the article called "Efforts to end the dispute." In any event, do you have any actual comment about whether or not that section should stay? Qwyrxian (talk) 21:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, please stop adding in links to my posts. Those links have nothing to do with what I commented, I find them distracting, and it looks like I said something I didn't say. I've asked this before--please do not edit any other person's comments; if you think such an edit is necessary, you may request they do it, but you may not do it yourself, per WP:TPO. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian -- I am not obliged to accept the false premise of your question. Your questions are an attempt to establish and solidify a perceptual transformation and paradigm; and as such, it does not enhance our prospects for collaborative editing in the future.

This broad-stroke edit strategy is undermined by WP:Burden and by verifying inline citations which are individually and cumulatively clear, credible and persuasive.

In other words, you don't "get it." Okay.

John Smith's doesn't "get it." Okay.

You propose to throw out the baby with the bath water. Not okay.

I cannot concur. Nor do I concur that this section urgently demands our attention before addressing the other active issues which have been engaged in the threads above. --Tenmei (talk) 23:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Now the section is titled "Alternate approaches." Alternate to what? It can't be an "alternate approach" unless there is a "main approach." Unless you mean that the alternate to arguing is to...not argue? I can kind-of understand how the latter part (a cooperative approach) is a an alternate, but not what Xiaopeng says (which, is, basically, let's talk about it later). Also, the big fat side quote is a clear WP:MOS violation--we're an encyclopedia, not a weekly/monthly news magazine. And you want to tackle other issues? You're welcome to--we can work on things simultaneously, as long as we keep each issue in separate threads. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Not a violation of WP:MOS -- not because of the formatting. The quote template would not exist if it were violative of wiki-policy. As for the other parts of your diff, Your framing limits the range of response. Please feel free to draft a different heading for this section; but I encourage you to restrain the impulse to blank it out entirely --Tenmei (talk) 03:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My first time seeing Tenmei writing anything resembling standard English. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING -- see context here for zero tolerance. --Tenmei (talk) 04:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

You could've used one short sentence to communicate your protest against my compliment. Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Would you two stop, please? If either of you is too irritated with the other to respond civilly, then just stop commenting to the other. Neither backhanded compliments nor over-linking is helping the issue. Every time we stop to comment on other people's motives or style of writing, we get drawn away from improving the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING -- see context here for zero tolerance. --Tenmei (talk) 05:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding just the quotation itself, Rquote and cquote are to be used for pull quotes, and, as such, belong (per the documentation) in places like essays. Quoting from the documentation of cquote, "NOTE: This template should not be used for block quotations in article text. " For that matter, this quotations isn't even eligible for block quote, because it's not 4 or more lines long, as specified in WP:MOSQUOTE. So I'm going to convert it back into a regular quotation, while we continue to discuss what to do with this section. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that "efforts to calm dispute" is kind of irrelevant. We can condense it into the "Reaction of ROC/PRC" but this certainly does not deserve an unique section. Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll be requesting Mediation later

We're obviously all not working together well. Half of the time someone edits, it gets reverted; then we end up with pages and pages of words, hacking out words; then often we get accusations of bad faith, incivility, tendentious editing, etc. We need outside assistance to help guide our conversations and work. I'm going to make a request at WP:MEDCAB. However, the process is voluntary (even formal mediation from WP:MEDCOMis voluntary). As such, all participants in this dispute will, after the request is filed, agree to take part in mediation. Now, "all" is somewhat subjective; for example, though User:Winstonlighter used to be active here, the last time xe edited these articles was in October, so xe doesn't have to be a party. As far as I can see by looking up at this discussion, here's the people I think would need to agree (note that anyone can participate, it's just that the core disputants need to):

• Qwyrxian
• Tenmei
• Bobthefish2
• Phoenix7777
• John Smith
• Oda Mari
• STSC

I think that San9663, Benlinsquare, could also be helpful, but they're less active recently so aren't nearly as critical. Similarly, Kusunose and HXL49 could be helpful, as they work on Senkaku Islands, but their participation isn't necessary. Even Oda Mari could decline to participate, since I know xe's often busy and doesn't participate all that much , as long as xyr future involvement in the article didn't work contrary to any progress made in mediation. If anyone is going to outright reject mediation right now, please say so, as if you are there's no real point in me making the request. Note, though, that explicitly refusing to actively work on dispute resolution could be construed as being evidence of intentionally being non-collaborative.

Finally, please understand that my request for mediation is not because I think I can "win" (if you've been "keeping score", you'll see that I'm not editing on a side), but because I honestly think we need help. This article needs work, and we seem incapable of accomplishing that work on our own. A mediator can help us do that. Note that a mediator cannot make any rulings, impose any decisions, or assess any sanctions. They're whole job is to help people talk together in a constructive way. I can't see any reason why we shouldn't proceed with such a helpful option. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Mediation is needed. I think the current problem started at this removal. The edit summary says " Deleted a fraudulant claim + references regarding Remin Ribao article..." . Bobthefish2 wrote " Again removed fraudulent references/content based on misinformation" when he restored his removal. See . I think the answer to the current problem is this. It is a hard fact the Japanese government says "...an article in the People's Daily dated 8 January 1953, under the title of "Battle of people in the Ryukyu Islands against the U.S. occupation", made clear that the Ryukyu Islands consist of 7 groups of islands including the Senkaku Islands." See . Even if the Japanese argument is based on wrong translation/misinformation, the information should be included in the article because it is a fact. It is not WP editors' role to judge if it's a false/wrong argument. If Bobthefish2 thinks the claim of the Japanese government is a fraudulent claim + references regarding Remin Ribao article, all he had/has to do is add the Chinese government's refutation with RS to the article. The removal was inappropriate because Bobthefish2's claim was merely a personal thought as he has not provided any RSs supporting his claim so far. If I missed something, please point it out as I haven't been watchful on threads above. Oda Mari (talk) 05:45, 4 February 2011

Oda Mari, I am afraid you are totally confused. My advice for you is to scroll up and read the post I left below User:Tenmei's gigantic (and useless) table. If reading comprehension is not your strong suit, then you may want to ask your Japanese friends to help you with translating the text into Japanese. Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:10, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

ENDORSE summary and conclusion as presented by Oda Mari above because, as the first paragraph at WP:V explains: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth-— that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." This core principle is essential to our collaborative editing process. This is not optional -- not arbitrarily devalued or set aside by those who are successful at spin. --Tenmei (talk) 06:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the current problem. I'm talking that every single little change causes either an edit war, a near edit war, or such a massive, overwhelming talk page discussion with both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative. This particular point is just an example. If we don't go into mediation, I can discuss the solution to this particular point, but I don't think anyone is going to like it, and I don't think the current tone on this page is going to allow for a serious consideration of it Qwyrxian (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I see. Then request it. I'll join in it. Oda Mari (talk) 06:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

NO, the framing for the proposed "mediation" is fatally flawed. In other words, the cognitive distortion implicit in "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Restatement: the implied cognitive bias in Qwyrxian's proposal and lessons learned the hard way exposes this diff as a likely illusion. This is barking up the wrong tree. --Tenmei (talk) 07:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The comment you just made is exactly one of the reasons we need mediation. I've been patient, but the truth is I have no idea at all what you just said. I shouldn't have to follow 7 different links to understand your point. Every time anyone makes a change you don't like, you add a dozen links, tables with multiple diffs framing the discussion, and, sometimes, even graphs. These are absolutely hurting our ability to talk to you. I think we've explained it before, but the point is that while your formal style of thinking may well work in whatever field you are in (formal logic? philosophy? computer science?) but it doesn't work in an informal place like this.

You know what? It's time to stop beating around the bush. You want to hear what I think the two big problems are here and on Senkaku Islands? It's relatively simple: Tenmei produces impossible to follow talk page discussions and makes massive article changes before getting consensus, and Bobthefish2 treats the majority of issues like they're battlegrounds and assumes every piece of disagreement is a cover for POV pushing. Both of you are sometimes right: people are pushing POVs, and having concise summaries of discussions and links to policy do help. But the way the discussion goes here is so out of control that when we're arguing about the grammar of 3 words (like on Talk:Senkaku Islands#U.S. Control prior to 1972), we can't do it civilly or functionally. We need help. We need a truly neutral party to discuss not just this one point about Remin Ribao, but the overall structure of the article (it's bad), the ordering and use of the names in different languages, the infoboxes, picture captions, which claims can be including...etc., etc. Why would you reject the help of a neutral mediator? Remember, the mediator can't "rule" on claims, they can't say "Okay, then, I've decided, take out/leave in the Remin Ribao sentence." What xe can do is help us talk to each other civilly and productively. Xe can help us by saying, "Yes, but that's not what policy says." Xe can help us by structuring the discussions. Why wouldn't you want to do that? Qwyrxian (talk) 09:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd say I am pretty much right whenever I suspect something is a cover for POV pushing. But then again, I do understand you need to somehow behave like a neutral party and thus have to find something in me to suspect or criticize.

Anyhow, I hope this mediation thing is going to do some good. If possible, please do consider inviting User:Benlisquare. Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:55, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian -- Paraphrasing the first two sentences of your diff above: (a) The comment you just made is exactly the reason mediation as you define it is a non-starter; and (b) I've been patient, but the truth is that you do not understand what you just said.

Qwyrxian -- In your diff here, three points are accepted and confirmed below; one clause is disputed.

With characteristic self-effacing modesty, Qwyrxian suggests, "My problem is most likely that I'm trying to act like a mediator without actually being one."

This is a good time to re-assert something we all already know. That is, the goal of our collaborative editing is to develop an article about the Senkaku Islands dispute. We all agree that the article needs to be perceived as having a neutral point of view.

Will a Chinese-English translation of the 1953 Rinmin Ribao article be welcome? Could it be rejected? Can it be ignored?

This is moved from my talk page; I hope Bobthefish2 does not mind: --Nlu (talk) 20:50, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Specifically, "fraudulent," according to Webster's Online Dictionary, means, "characterized by, based on, or done by fraud"; a synonym given was "deceitful." "Fraud" means "intentional perversion of the truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right" No editor here is doing that. For that matter, the Japanese government isn't doing that; it knows that, assuming that arguing based on the article is "intentional perversion of the truth" (which it might be), it wasn't going to convince the PRC (or the ROC) to "part with something of value or to surrender a legal right." --Nlu (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

At Talk:Senkaku Islands and in this talk page, this arguably constructive approach has proved unworkable. The impulse to "let it go" and to simply "move on" is compelling. The edit histories of our talk pages document our earlier efforts to "let it go" and "move on", and the unforeseen consequences have each time proved troublesome and costly. The same pattern is likely to recur in the future.

Compare threads which considered the subject of this People's Daily article, e.g.,

In other words, a mere straw poll conducted among a few active editors who demonstrate intensity of preference is not consensus and polling is not a substitute for discussion.

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