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Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept February 26, 2004 Featured article review Demoted January 10, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 29, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 27, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed February 14, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed October 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed May 19, 2008 Good article nominee Listed May 29, 2008 Peer review Reviewed July 10, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 20, 2008 Good article reassessment Kept June 19, 2010 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Former featured article

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Conspiracy theories

"Conspiracy theorists" "have engaged in independent investigations".

What investigations? There's no real "independent investigation" on this, as in someone examining documents and performing independent tests. There's a bunch of people uploading videos on youtube. Hardly an investigation. Any reference to any actual "investigation"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk • contribs) 19:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it should instead be stated that they are "calling for investigation"... plenty of sources exist for that. Examples:

• The Villager: "Schumer and Gillibrand are not the first to call for a new (real) investigation of into the crimes 9/11. The list is long and it’s growing."
• East Valley Tribune: "I ask you to study the material I have given you and then join me in the call for a new investigation."
• The Villager: "‘Pentagon Papers senator’ calls for new 9/11 probe"
• New Jersey On-Line: "9/11 survivors call for renewed probe as 8th anniversary approaches"
• RT/TV-Novosti: "The eighth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks have given US activists another opportunity to call on the US government to launch a new investigation into the tragedy."
• The Keene Sentinel: "A group of local politicians, business owners and other residents has banded together in calling for a new investigation into the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks..."
• Colorado Democratic Party Platform, May 12, 2010 (PDF, page 31): "...the CDP calls for the establishment of a truly independent Grand Jury and public investigation into these and other anomalies in order to find the truth of the September 11, 2001 attacks..."
• The Australian: "Kevin Bracken, Victorian branch secretary of the Maritime Union of Australia and president of the Victorian Trades Hall Council, is calling for a 'proper investigation into the events of September 11'"
• The New York Sun: "...there should be an official investigation of the sort the 9/11 commission did not engage in..."
  

Wildbear (talk) 23:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorists can't handle the truth...instead they seek out the impossible to jive with their preconceived notions that some nefarious entity must be behind it all.--MONGO 10:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Mongo Yes, but that’s not the point. Written the way it is now, it seems like some independent took up an investigation on his own, examining materials, accounts, papers, etcetera. Which is not the case. No actual investigation was undertaken by anyone of those people who try to sell you books about the pentagon not being hit by a plane while falsifying facts and omitting pictures and accounts. Again, incredibily retarded videos on youtube making incredibily retarded claims only show the complete lack of technical knowledge by these people, and cannot be called “investigation”. I’d change that part.

The way Wildbear puts it seems better, and it shows that these people actually DO nothing, except talking and talking and talking.

I’d say we change it with “call for investigations”. If no one modifies it during this week I’ll go on and modify it if no one is against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk • contribs) 15:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes get rid of the "independent investigations" bit but don't replace it with "calls for investigations". Both of them give the conspiracy theorists more credibility than they deserve. Several of Wildbear's sources have nothing to do with conspiracy theories, and other criticism of the 9/11 commission is addressed elsewhere. Lots of the rest relate to the NYC CAN/New Hampshire ballot initiatives, which completely failed some time ago. Hut 8.5 17:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@Hut Hmm I don’t know. While I myself find conspiracy theorists a laughable stock, some of the links DO claim that these people do not accept the results of the independent investigations so far and are asking for new ones. The only thing that could look like an investigation was that fantastic piece published on some pay-to-publish review that claimed that the metals they examined some 6/7 years after the facts were rusty. But they called it nano-thermite. And the editor resigned soon after. That’s all I can think of.

How about

Conspiracy theorists question the accepted version of the attacks, the motivations behind them, and the parties involved, and have asked for new investigations, after rejecting the results of the independent analysis conducted by FEMA and NIST.

(I’m not an English speaking native, so if that can be written down better, please do so) Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 16:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies don't allow us to give anything more than cursory coverage of conspiracy theories in this article, since to do otherwise would give the false impression that the conspiracy theories are a mainstream view. Hence the information mentioned in this article about the conspiracy theories is essential facts such as that they think the US government is involved, or that the WTC was brought down with explosives. Plenty of other verifiable and encyclopedic information about conspiracy theories is excluded or moved into sub-articles. Now I don't doubt that there are conspiracy theorists who call for new investigations, but it's hardly one of the defining characteristics of the movement. I'm sure you could write something on the subject in a sub-article (if there isn't one that covers it already). Hut 8.5 17:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It was already discussed (in Archive 29) that conspiracy theories are indeed widely accepted (by 36% of Americans). In fact, I would like to put this information back into the article. In addition, this Associated Press article claims that " a poll of 17 nations by WorldPublicOpinion.org, an international research project, found majorities in nine of them believed al-Qaida was behind the attacks. However, the U.S. government was blamed by 36 percent of Turks and 27 percent of Palestinians." --V111P (talk) 06:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The phrase conspiracy theories are indeed widely accepted (by 36% of Americans) is wildly inaccurate. In any case, content here isn't governed by popular opinion. RxS (talk) 06:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I understand now what Hut 8.5 meant by "mainstream view", he was talking about the number of reliable sources. And I was just going to correct myself about the 36% of Americans - they believe it is "somewhat likely or very likely that U.S. officials either participated in the attacks or took no action to stop them" - an exact quote from the AP article. That's what I want to be added to the Conspiracies section in this article. --V111P (talk) 08:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

now I really don’t know about all the stuff that is coming out of this discussion… my objection was that, written the way it was, the paragraph implied that some of these conspiracy theorists actually went on independent investigations and started examining facts and data and materials… which is not true… apparently now the discussion moved to some other level and I am not sure where this is going, I’m just ok with the changes to the paragraph, since someone reading it could think that there was some independent investigation going on, while all these people do is uploading videos (with terrible resolutions) on youtube.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 15:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not "conspiracy theorists" are conducting independent investigations depends on how you define "conspiracy theorists". If you define conspiracy theorists as people who propose things like reptilian aliens and holograms hitting the towers, then you are correct; little or no investigation has been conducted supporting these kinds of fanciful stories. If you refer to anyone who is questioning the official story and seeking to verify what actually happened as a conspiracy theorist, then your assertion is not correct. There is much independent investigation going on every day; various people are probing with intensity and determination to find out exactly what happened, and ultimately, who was responsible. The numerous FOIA requests issued are an example of this. Little of this is appearing in the mainstream media; but that does not mean that it is not occurring. I am not arguing for any change in the Misplaced Pages article as it stands, concerning independent investigations by conspiracy theorists; I just want to be sure that the record is clear that there are serious independent investigations taking place. Arguably more important, and with greater coverage in the media, are the calls for authoritative investigation on the matter. Wildbear (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

FOIA requests are not investigations. Calling for investigation is not investigation. If there is "much independent investigation going on every day", then there will be sources showing this. The sources you linked above are not independent investigations. An independent investigation is the one conducted by NIST or the one by FEMA. Those can be linked and shown.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 20:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Your definition of "independent investigation" is unclear. You cite investigations conducted by NIST or FEMA as independent investigations. Is this intended to imply that only investigations conducted by government agencies can be considered "independent investigations"? NIST operates under the United States Department of Commerce and FEMA operates under the United States Department of Homeland Security; both of which are cabinet agencies of the Executive branch; which, in the case of the Bush administration, was a White House which (to all outward appearances) did not want an investigation to take place. So referring to these as "independent investigations" is dubious; independent of what? Wildbear (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I mean that the investigations were conducted by technicians, by “technical people” who reported facts, and didn’t care for a specific party or preconceived “theories”. Unlike conspiracy theorists, who think they already know what happened without ever having a single proof of what they claim. (Unless structural engineers all over the world are part of the GONSBIRACY too). For instance your claim that the White House “did not want an investigation to take place”. Really? Show us the evidence supporting this claim. But again, this is not what we are talking about. You said there is “much independent investigation going on every day”. Fine. Then there should be sources about these investigations. I keep seeing none. Therefore, it is incorrect to state it in the article. The rest, I honestly don’t care, since faith in conspiracy theories is impermeable to logic. Steel has a weakening point. Office fires easily reach the temperatures needed to get the steel to weaken. The investigations showed this. Want to try an investigation on your own? Take a bar of steel, put weight on it, and then heat it to 500°C and see what happens. That’s an investigation. Grainy videos of shadows and low quality pictures are not. So again, claiming that there are independent investigations is ok, but it needs to be shown. As since there are not independent investigations, it’s a bit hard to show it. And it’s also incorrect to say so to the people reading. Another easy investigation? Go to your fire department and ask the firefighters about the risks of fires in steel buildings. Unless, of course, they’re part of the GONSBIRACY too. So, source the claim or remove it.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 14:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

"For instance your claim that the White House “did not want an investigation to take place”. Really?" Actually, that's true. IIRC, the Bush administration at first opposed the 9/11 commission. Probably they didn't want to be accused of being ill-prepared or incompetent or being told defending the nation against terrorist attacks is more important that reading Pet Goat. Of course, conspiracy theorists see this as evidence of the government trying to cover up the conspiracy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

If that is true, then there will be sources. And if the 9/11 commission is an emission of the evil government, why would the Bush administration fear it? Unless they actually are independent. So the claim lacks logic anyway. If the Bush administration was opposed, that means they can’t control the results, and they are “afraid” of the results. Right? Of being called incompetent. But if they control the commission and investigations, why oppose? Just tell them what to say and you’re good. Again, the point here is that these independent investigations do not exist. And if they do, there will be sources.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 15:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

If you want to learn more about the 9/11 commission I suggest you read the Misplaced Pages articles about it. The problem I noticed is that it looks like this main 9/11 article has been severely censored and most of the information used by the critics of the government's actions and inactions, including it's obstruction of the commission's investigation, is buried in the subarticles. --V111P (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sigh....parts of 9/11 Commission are pretty bad. Looks like parts were written by people with axes to grind, cherry-picking quotes and factoids. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that article, i already requested some changes there too to reflect the sources used. V111P, again, "it seems like" is not encyclopedic and i don't really care. I'll try again to state my point: it is wrong to say that independent investigations were happening, since they were/are not. Therefore, the paragraph needed to be changed. Conspiracy theories about censorship regarding articles about conspiracy theories are just too silly so i won't even go there. I pointed out something inaccurate, it was corrected. I'm fine with it. If any source of actual investigations exist, anyone can link them and document them.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 20:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Idonthavetimeforthiscarp wrote: Take a bar of steel, put weight on it, and then heat it to 500°C and see what happens. That’s an investigation. Thats exactly the sort of thing that I meant when I said that independent investigations are taking place. I also noted that "little of this is appearing in the mainstream media", and while that limits our ability to cite these investigations in Misplaced Pages, I do not think that it is accurate to assert that no such investigations are taking place. Here is an example: NIST wrote in its FAQ sheet the following: "Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building."(ref) Is this true or not? Jonathan H. Cole, Professional Civil Engineer, sought to find out through experimentation. This video shows his findings. Watch this (in its entirety) and see whether or not you agree that it's genuine investigation of the sort that you stated. "Take a bar of steel..." There are others that I could cite, but hopefully this will be sufficient to illustrate the point. Wildbear (talk) 04:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not an investigation, and he admits that he's not an explosives expert. Any discussion about independent investigations in a Misplaced Pages context needs experts working in their field. It's not a genuine investigation, it's someone playing scientist without any science involved. RxS (talk) 06:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't have any argument with your position on this, RxS; the documented experiment was given in response to Idonthavetimeforthiscarp's assertion: "Want to try an investigation on your own? Take a bar of steel, put weight on it, and then heat it to 500°C and see what happens. That’s an investigation." More in conformance with Misplaced Pages's criteria for investigation might be physics teacher David Chandler's analysis of the collapse acceleration of WTC7, which found that the measured acceleration of WTC7 (using a point on the roofline for reference) was indistinguishable from free fall for a period of approximately 2.5 seconds.(ref-pdf)(ref-video) This was accepted by NIST and incorporated into their final report on WTC7. Wildbear (talk) 06:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

You can check this website: http://www.journalof911studies.com/ --V111P (talk) 08:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

You can check it if you want to; you still won't find research. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

There's plenty of what looks like research there. Anyway, I don't mind the phrase "and are calling for a new investigation" in the article. There is also the "Building what?" campaign (buildingwhat.com), they have aired ads on New York TV stations last month and were also on Fox News. There is no denying they and others are calling for a new official investigation. --V111P (talk) 12:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

And once that one is done, they still won't be satisfied so they'll call for another investigation...the only investigation team they want is one that incorporates conspiracy theory loonacy/lunatics in the process...and reputable engineers and scientists aren't going to waste their time and credentials on an investigative endeavour with wackos.--MONGO 16:11, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

That's entirely your opinion, only, based on who knows what. I include mine then: this guy is NOT a wacko. Also, here are two Google searches which may help to come to the conclusion on what is going on with media today. This and that. lessismore (talk) 18:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Duh...Architects and Engineers for TRUTH!!!! We can thank them for helping dumb down the world with a lot of mumbo jumbo...the TRUTHERS make the BIRTHERS seem sane.--MONGO 03:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, let's now remember, everyone, that this is not a forum, and let's just stick to the reliably sourced facts, please. :) --V111P (talk) 11:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

interesting

word 'truth' appears zero times in this article. it appears in every tenth news article related to the subject. 188.2.165.179 (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the "every tenth news article" statistic, but the complete absence from this article is an interesting observation. It would seem to indicate that among the editors who have written this article, "9/11 Truth" and related matters is not regarded as notable enough, or not relevant enough, to warrant inclusion in the article. This has been discussed to some extent before; for example: here, here, here, and here. Whether the judgment to keep "truth" out of the article is appropriate or not, the absence of this topic from the article is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes the conspicuous absence of well-known information from an article can be just as telling as if it were included. Wildbear (talk) 03:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

No...the absence of idiotic conspiracy theories from this article demonstrates that idiots aren't the primary editors.--MONGO 20:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

There is an entire article devoted to the conspiracy theories. There is a link to it on the main page. Singling out one movement is not NPOV. Stop asking. --Tarage (talk) 10:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

hmm, i was not referring to the truth movement, but to the mention of the word in general. 1 in 10 articles in google news (archive) mentions it. In regards to the movement, it may be more notable than others. It is a matter of discussion. There is no need to stop asking the questions. Consensus here may change in time, as new info gets published in mainstream sources 188.2.165.179 (talk) 10:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The 9/11 Truth movement has been and still is regarded as WP:FRINGE. It has gotten the appropriate response: a brief mention and a breakout article. Soxwon (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking for then. If you are asking for the inclusion of the word "truth" in the article, you need to realize that Misplaced Pages does not report "the truth", but what reliable sources say about "the truth". As Soxwon stated above, the 9/11 Truth movement is still fringe. Consensus has not chanced, and it is pointless to discuss this until consensus does change. And by consensus I mean "consensus amongst reliable sources", not "a new IP user has joined the fray of arguing". --Tarage (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

"you need to realize that Misplaced Pages does not report "the truth", but what reliable sources say about "the truth"." - wat sources with the most cash report as the truth. This is why articles like this on Misplaced Pages are next to worthless. For example there's no evidence that Bin Laden had anythign to do with 911, yet this article oozes such rubbish, simply because Western Mainstream media mention it enough times. Misplaced Pages should be above aligning itself with media outlets who simpyl have more money than anyone else. there is no such thing as a reliable source. Vexorg (talk) 00:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

"No evidence Bin Laden had anything to do with 911"..."there is no such thing as a reliable source"...pearls of wisdom, surely.--MONGO 03:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, please remeber that all conspiracy theories have been debunked, while the investigations gave consistent results. No need to include fantasies in the article, then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.103.102.118 (talk) 17:34, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

What utter rubbish. Vexorg (talk) 00:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Nationals' casualties discrepancy

At the beginning of the article it is mentioned that nationals of over 70 countries died in the attacks, but in the 'Casualties' section a figure if over 90 is cited. Clearly this cannot be right- I didn't know which one to change though. Ug (talk) 04:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. The 70 figure comes from , which lists 77 countries, and the 90 figure from (both lists originate from the US department of state). There are a number of countries that appear on one list but not the other - I can see Kazakhstan, Jamaica, Liberia, Lithuania, Mali, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Slovakia and a load of others. Possibly it is difficult to determine whether someone is a nationality of a country or not. Hut 8.5 11:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Since the numbers are different, perhaps we should drop it all together and say something more vague like "nationalists from numerous different countries died in the attacks" or something of the like. --Tarage (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as 'more than ninety' falls under the category of 'more than seventy' (does that make sense?) I think 'more than seventy' is appropriate. Numerous countries, in my opinion, under-exaggerates the amount of nationalities who had casualties. Jess xx (talk) 16:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Time to eliminate the Conspiracy Theories section

The conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 are just as preposterous as the Moon landing conspiracy theories which in the article Apollo 11 are relegated to a simple link in the See also section...at Barack Obama...there is no easily found link to the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories...both the Apollo moon landing CT and the Obama citizenship CTs are, like the 9/11 CTs most definitely the textbook definition of WP:FRINGE and in keeping with precedents at the Apollo 11 article as well as at the Barack Obama article, conspiracy theories should be relegated to a simple SEE ALSO link or not mentioned at all...this website is not a platform for the fringe to promote their version of reality...there is precedent in arbcom cases to ensure this website does not permit advocacy of fringe science or Pseudoscience at the detriment of real science...see:Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience...in another ongoing case where fringe theory POV pushing is also soon to be shown to be unacceptable one can read the proposed decision of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question/Proposed decision. The 9/11 CTs have no basis in fact, are defintely fringe and should, as is done with similar preposterous CTs such as at the Apollo 11 and Barack Obama articles, be relegated to a see also link or no link at all.--MONGO 00:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The section does not advocate any fringe theories. It reports about the fact that these theories exist. Clearly, as evidenced by numerous reports in reliable sources, the existence of these theories is a notable fact. Please do not accuse other of POV pushing, when you yourself have expressed your own point of view and have disparaged other peoples' point of view repeatedly on this page.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

As much as I would like to see the CT section go away, I think that its pervasiveness and longevity give it enough WP:WEIGHT to stay for now. Soxwon (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

While I recognize I may represent a minority point of view, I agree with MONGO; I think they should go. Misplaced Pages's worst problems are not where there are genuine competing points of view -- we solve that by covering both -- they are where one point of view is reliably sourced, and one is utter nonsense, repeatedly debunked in reliable sources, but pushed, pushed, pushed by the fringe types who have discovered in Misplaced Pages an ideal environment for their campaigns, which fail elsewhere.

In a practical, immediate way, one sees the limits of the so-called “extended mind” clearly in the mob-made Misplaced Pages, the perfect product of that new vast, supersized cognition: when there’s easy agreement, it’s fine, and when there’s widespread disagreement on values or facts, as with, say, the origins of capitalism, it’s fine, too; you get both sides. The trouble comes when one side is right and the other side is wrong and doesn’t know it. The Shakespeare authorship page and the Shroud of Turin page are scenes of constant conflict and are packed with unreliable information... Our trouble is not the over-all absence of smartness but the intractable power of pure stupidity, and no machine, or mind, seems extended enough to cure that.

— Adam Gopnik, "How the Internet gets inside us"; New Yorker, 14 February 2011

IMO, a "see also" link would be sufficient. Antandrus (talk) 01:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, I am surprised to read the above statement from you, a sysop on the project. That these theories exists is reliably sourced, and certainly not an extraordinary claim, as we probably all agree that they exist; the section does not make any claims that are not backed by what the large majority of reliable sources have reported repeatedly.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Are sysops expected to be more supportive of conspiracy theories? What does my sysop status have to do with this? I'm giving my opinion, I've done no edit warring, and I'd appreciate if it you'd avoid tossing red herrings onto the path. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 02:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Completely agree with User:MONGO, and he makes a good point when comparison with other articles. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree the theories are preposterous, but are reported in reliable sources. Perhaps some of the detail could be cut down, but eliminating the section violates Misplaced Pages core principles, and I'm not convinced it's a good idea. MONGO's argument could be used, for instance, to delete the Chiropractic article, as there are no reliable sources that it works, although there are reliable sources that it exists. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Arthur...unlike the chiropractic article, we have known facts about the event/issue. The only time reputable magazines and similar report about the 9/11 CT is to poke fun at them...I think just sending them elsewhere is best.--MONGO 03:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• I've left a note about this discussion at Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#September_11_attacks.  Cs32en Talk to me  02:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's time we banned all those that routinely use these articles to platform 9/11 CTs...as arbcom has made it clear can and should be done.--MONGO 03:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This comment seems to shed some light on the motivations of ResidentAnthropologist (talk · contribs).  Cs32en Talk to me  02:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Please dont assume a casual humor of about Banned Socker User:Freedom5000 has anything to do with content issue. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to say that the section seems appropriately weighted in the given context. I too wish that all these theories would go away, but as wikipedia is about neutrality, My POV is of no concern. As to the juxtaposition against the Moon Landing Hoax theory, the two are not weighted the same in the overview of history as their are far fewer people who believe in this conspiracy theory than the other.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:43, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support inclusion - The conspiracies are very widespread, and abundantly documented by reliable secondary sources. It is not our job to censor WP, but just to report the facts. That the theories are considered ridiculous by the vast majority of mainstream sources can be clearly stated in the Conspiracy section. If a reader comes to this article seeking to learn about the validity fo the conspiracy theories, is it not better to explain than to conceal? --Noleander (talk) 02:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
• I support a (minimal) inclusion as well. It's a fact that these conspiracy theories and conspiracy pushers exist and have affected the dialogue over the attack, and the disputation here is a reminder of it. We surely ought to avoid undue weight, but we should acknowledge that part of the cultural effects spawned by the attack. As a side point, remember that Freedom5000 is community banned. If you see any edits that obviously come from that individual, you can just revert without giving any thought to the matter, and certainly without the need to feel stress about it. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Noleander and Gavia make a valid argument...but my thinking is that to progress and get this article to FA level, it needs some massive trimming and since the CTs surrounding this are so preposterously ridiculous, that is as good a place as any.--MONGO 03:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

If your goal is to reduce the size of the article, the best solution is to follow WP:Summary Style guideline. In other words, every major section in this article already has a "main" sub-article (based on WP:Content fork). Thus, each main section could be reduced to, say, 3 to 12 sentences, and if the user wants more detail, they click on the "main" link that is present at the top of each section. To pick a random example: the "Memorials" section is rather large, yet there is an entire article dedicated to that topic. --Noleander (talk) 04:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Precisely....been there...the article should discuss primarily the event itself. And: elimination of fringe is paramount.--MONGO 04:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

You keep saying that the conspiracy theories should be eliminated, but that is just your opinion. Other editors think they are an important, if small, aspect of the overall topic. Just as a discussion of evolution should mention creationism. Maybe you should start a survey to solicit a broader range of opinions. --Noleander (talk) 04:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

A better example is Origin of the Universe#Religious interpretations. Evolution is a concept, not an event. As such, it has nothing to do with creationism. But this article is not titled "Official account of the 9/11 attacks". Its topic are the September 11 attacks, their background, and their aftermath, including the reception.  Cs32en Talk to me  05:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment MONGO, you HAVE to acknowledge the existence of a significant number of people who believe something, even if they are wrong. At one point in time, a significant portion of the people in the United States believed that the US gov't wasn't revealing the whole truth. That's several million people in the United States alone, not something that can simply be swept aside as fringe. I agree, they're completely, but there are enough of them to warrant inclusion. Soxwon (talk) 05:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Regarding the motivation of getting this article to FA status. FA is a good goal, but is not the overriding priority for every article in WP. The top priority, instead, is getting good, reliable information to readers. FA status is just a tool, a path, to provide good information. I've seen articles that had good information removed because an editor "bull-dozed" the article to FA status. FA is a means to an end, not the end itself. Deleting a section that has been in the article for 5+ years (!) is something that should be carefully deliberated. Post the idea on the Talk page, then wait a week. There is no rush. --Noleander (talk) 05:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • FA represents potential and even the best FA's always have some room for improvement...the process to get an article to FA might just bring in many others that are generally not interested in routine editing..the prose, format and outline would improve during the process and the end result would be a decidedly superior article.--MONGO 12:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment In response to those who support a "minimal" inclusion, our experience is that such sections grow and require continuous effort to keep them "minimal". With no inclusion of Moon landing and Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories in corresponding articles, both solid precedents, I see no good argument for inclusion of conspiracy theories in this article. If anything, the case for inclusion in this article is weaker than for those examples. Since there is no single September 11 conspiracy theory, but rather several, with variations, that frustrate attempts to write a succinct summary. Walter Siegmund (talk) 05:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps b/c 9/11 conspiracy theorists are a world-wide phenomena with multiple countries holding millions of believers. Again, I'm not saying this makes them right, but you can't simply ignore them. Soxwon (talk) 05:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

9/11 conspiracy theories exists. It is manifest that we do not ignore conspiracy theorists. In this article, a "see also" item suffices, in my judgment. Walter Siegmund (talk) 06:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I cant even believe that this is an issue. The section is only two small paragraphs making up little more than 1% of the article and even less if the theory rejection sentence in the section is excluded from the count. The text goes no further than stating that the theories exist so claims that the mere existence of the section is POV pushing can not be supported. If WP:UNDUE was strictly followed the section could be even larger and not to mention them at all is indisputably a violation of that policy. Then there is the issue of how deletion will be used by prominent theorists to support their claims. I totally reject POV pushing from both sides of the issue.Wayne (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Those that have previously supported having this section and even expanding it are likely to be the ones most likely to be in a state of disbelief. Thanks for bringing up UNDUE...since the CTs are bogus, mentioning them here breaks precedent with what we find in the Barack Obama article where his birth certificate/citizenship questions aren't even discussed at all...yet polls show that as many as 35% of U.S. citizens have various degrees of doubt as to whether Obama is a U.S. citizen. However, like the Obama citizenship issues, the 9/11 CTs are based on misinformation, wrongful misrepresentation, and in the worst cases, simple lies.--MONGO 12:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Mongo, may I point your attention to WP:OTHERSTUFF and thus why your argument about the birthers doesn't apply? Soxwon (talk) 13:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment: If Misplaced Pages and the Internet had existed in 1951, I'm pretty sure we'd have the same issues with the Pearl Harbor article. I support minimal inclusion, perhaps as small as a simple section hatnote. As Wseigmund points out, this presents the problem of creeping growth. Events of this kind inevitably produce conspiracy theories: Pearl Harbor (controversy section and link), the Kennedy assassination (brief mention and link), TWA 800 (likewise). Similar issues plague Shakespeare authorship, homeopathy, autism, the MMR vaccine ... It's human nature, and Misplaced Pages is a magnet for those who would promote their theories. It's also exhausting for long-term editors to try to maintain some balance, and the issue discussed here reflects some of that frustration. The 9/11 conspiracy spectrum runs the gamut from a reasonable "we don't know everything that happened" to the notion that everybody in Lower Manhattan on 9/11/01 saw, heard and felt holographic 767s. We can't hope to address that in this article, and it has a good home elsewhere that does a reasonable job of presenting the spectrum of views. As a cautionary example, the Kennedy article was, for instance, was a GA, but has been worn down by conspiracy enthusiasts. The talk page there makes this one look tame. Acroterion _(talk) 15:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I hear you, but the arguments presented for deleting the material so far are "it's stopping it from getting to FA" or "its really hard to fight off those wacko nut editors". Those are not good reasons. Here is the kind of argument that I would find persuasive: "Of the top 20 non-fiction works on the 9/11 attacks, only one mentions the conspiracy theories. Of the 820,000 news articles on the topic, only 0.1% mention the conspiracies." That would help us assess the relative significance of that section. --Noleander (talk) 16:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support inclusion and expand. Many people do not believe in the official story about what happened and there is a lot of information devoted to this. Very notable. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Protected due to edit warring

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. The community expects better of experienced users than to edit war like that. I expect WP:INVOLVED admins to respect the protection and not edit through it, and for all involved to discuss the matter here. All participants can consider themselves warned, if warring resumes after the protection is lifted the next step is the liberal use of blocking. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I added an invisible comment: please restore {{pp-move-indef}}{{pp-semi-indef}} when the full protection terminates. However, because of those indef protections, I don't think the full protection should have an automatic time limit. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Great. Good job guys. Nownone of us can play with the ball.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Rather than protecting, why not block the person who has removed a section three times against consensus? --John (talk) 03:01, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

If we don't trim a lot of the fat out of this article, starting with the CT section, then it will never be an FA.--MONGO 03:43, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Consensus is not an excuse to edit war, everyone who participates is automatically wrong. @Arthur: I think it would be ok for any admin to restore the previous protections when the full prot. is over, they are more about vandalism. If I'm online when it expires I'll do it myself. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

There was a small back and forth...you're overreacting...no one violated 3RR and as I mentioned in my last revert, I was planning on bringing all this to discussion. Plainly put...the CT section has to go if this article will ever be FA potential...about another 50kbs also need to be trimmed.--MONGO 04:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

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