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Azeri

In Azeri? it's either Turkish or Armenian, mountain merged with the Turkish word for bride. Parishan, the song comes from Erzrum and is about a Turkish boy who fell in love with an Armenian girl. The history of the song is known to this day by the natives of Erzrum. VartanM (talk) 04:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact the language of Erzurum can be called Azeri : in Turkey , some of the eastern provinces is called Turkey's Azerbaijan . (See Azeris in Turkey)--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, urban legends are a nice thing, but this is Misplaced Pages. Plus, as Alborz Fallah said, there has been a heavy influx of Azeris into Eastern Anatolia for the past three centuries. Parishan (talk) 08:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The name also fully translates in Turkish and it was originally from Erzerum, so Turkey comes first, then it should follow alphabetic order. VartanM (talk) 05:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be from anywhere. And the Azeri version tells nothing about Erzurum, or a Turkish boy, or an Armenian girl. This Iranian source, among others, calls it a famous Azeri piece ("قطعه معروف آذری"). Parishan (talk) 03:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You know Turkish, I'll assume good faith and suppose that you did not found any Turkish sources on the web which document its true provenance. VartanM (talk) 06:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Even if I did, what does it matter? Would you accept an Azeri source documenting the Azeri provenance of this song? Parishan (talk) 06:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Lyric

Yellow Bride

Don't braid the end of your hair,

Don't pluck the flower while it's young, yellow bride.

We were born to love each other;

You are the onlyone; on earth, in life, in the sky.

You are my sunshine, my fire.

I fell in love with you on a moonlit night

The sun, a man and yellow bride;

The only star, land and your breath,

I love life, life is you.

My eyes that see you are full of eagerness,

You came into my dream like a ray, yellow bride.

What kind of love is this? They won't let me marry you.

What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride?

What kind of love is this? They won't give you to me.

It's me, looking for you among the stars.

Answer me, don't break my heart!

I will breathe with your warm breath,

I will remember you all my life,

Enough! dry your tears, don't cry!

Don't keep the fire in your heart too long,

Your destined happiness is written on your forehead.

Pure love within one night.

But this is only a dream and you are in my dream,

You are my yellow bride among my wishes.

What kind of love is this? They won't let us marry.

What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride?

What kind of love is this? They won't give you to me.

It's us, only us and the sky,

You came to me in this utter night.

The light woke me up,

And we got separated among the stars.

Oh, God, hear my crying,

I felt this sharp pain in my heart,

Love is a game and I was winning,

I couldn't imagine such an end.

But you wanted death,

You achieved your goal in the end, yellow bride.

What kind of love is this? They won't let me marry you.

What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride?

You are my yellow bride,

You are my yellow bride.

Along this valley,

Give the lamb back to me, shepherd...

You are my yellow bride...

PS: I am wondering maybe the song is about a guy’s (maybe a shepherd) love for his sheep! Sheep is yellow; has warm breath; its wool get curly like braided hair; and pluck the flowers when eating them!

There is no reference in this lyric to a woman or human and things like long blonde or black hair, and the name Yelow Bride doesn’t mean anything in Azeri (that is for sure).

He even asks “What kind of love is this?” What does he mean by that question? Is it a strange love? Is it an unusual love?

The closing line gives us the main clue;

Give the lamb back to me, shepherd...

You are my yellow bride...

Who is he talking to? Is he telling the lamb that she is his Yellow Bride?

88.97.164.254 (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

RS source needed

I would like to see a source for the claim "Sarli Galin ...is a Azerbaijani folk song". I agree there EXISTS an azerbaijani version but about the ORIGIN of this song (whether evolved from other sources or not) I am not sure. I will delete the current sentence if I do not see an RS (and WP:V) source claiming the Azerbaijani origin of the song. Or maybe the sentence should be written as "Sari Galin is an Azerbaijani version of a folk song of unknown origin"--Xashaiar (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No need for that. I have gone one better and found a source by a Turkish author who explicitly states that Sari Galin was of Armenian provenance.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the source, but is it reasonable for an author to be that explicit, that certain, about the origin of a folk song? I think I'd be more comfortable with "of probable Armenian origin". Meowy 21:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Meowy, perhaps you have heard of a notorious documentary that has been indoctrinating Turkish schoolchildren for the past year and a half, titled Seri Galin? The tables are flipped, for the Armenian genocide is denied and massacres by Armenians against Moslems are emphasised and blown out of proportion. Of course, the selection of the title is obvious.

The song Sari Gelin is about a Turkish boy who fell in love with an Armenian girl. Such a relationship is forbidden by the girl's father but they end up escaping together. The father learns about this and kills the boy; the girl kills herself and they are thus reunited in paradise. The documentary's rational is Armenians and Turks loved each other and living peacefully for six hundred years and, Armenian leaders (an allusion to the father), disapproved of this and started butchering the Turks! I suppose the allusion to the Armenian tragedy is the girl's suicide. The words Seri Galin can be rendered in Azeri, because the language is similar to Turkish. The song spread to Iran and in the Caucasus because it showed that even enemies can love each other regardless of what their leaders think.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes I know of the documentary, and the controversy about its distribution - but I hadn't picked up on the symbolism behind its title. This "Christian girl falling in love with Muslim man" symbolism is quite common though. There are lots of varients to these stories - sometimes it is the beautiful Armenian daughter of the commander of a castle who falls in love with the handsome Turkish warrior-leader of the besieging Turks, and who opens the castle gates at night to let the invaders in. Sorry, but I don't believe the spreading "because it showed that even enemies can love each other regardless of what their leaders think" reasoning - to me these stories (in their origin, with modern PC interpretations removed) are more like symbols of complete subjection: the conquered community cannot even retain possession of their females. Meowy 15:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I find that conclusion equally convincing. I wish I could have access to more literature on the topic, that is, of course, if it exists.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

On an even greater scale, the idea of star crossed lovers breaking social mores is a topic explored extensively in world literature and song. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 17:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Take it easy.. But I see a Mazandarani influence in the music of Sari Galin: quite clear to my ears. Of course Armenians were in Mazandaran some centuries ago. I don't claim I am right, just my thoughts.--Xashaiar (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought: I don't think modern day versions will be anything like the original version – folk songs evolve massively in terms of style as time progresses. The reality is that no one will be able to conclusively prove the origin of this song. Also, it's quite likely that it is a derivative of one or more previous folk songs of the region, as happens throughout folk song history. Anyone stating anything more specific is just speculating. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 15:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

To use another well known example is the tale of the Armenian legendary hero, David of Sasun. I've read that his exploits were based on a 7th century Armenian noble named Theodore Rshtuni but his story was an oral tale until somebody decided to put it into print format over a century ago, well over a millenium since it was first heard of. Much of the details and the content probably changed over the centuries before it was written down.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Şanar Yurdatapan is a famous dissedent who was once stripped of his Turkish citizenship for anti-Turkish statements. Did you actually take your time to read the source you are quoting? The person uses statements such as "favourite song of Turkish fascists" and claims that the Turkish lyrics for this "Armenian song" was written only recently. This raises question as to how this song might have ended up with slightly varying lyrics in the Caucasus and Iran where is it performed by Azeris certainly for more than 50 years? Parishan (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't there a rule set by Misplaced Pages to prevent users to slander individuals with such vile colours? I know Şanar Yurdatapan and he, along with several other activists, was stripped of his Turkish citizenship after the 1980 coup in Turkey. How dare you tarnish a man who has a reputation for advancing the cause of civil liberties in Turkey. You are merely repeating the claims made against him by the ultranationalist and Grey Wolf factions in Turkey, who target anyone who wants to see the state to modernise. I want to believe that Misplaced Pages does not serve as the grounds to recycle right wing propaganda and outright character assassination.

The man was a famous composer before he had to leave Turkey and a vocal criticizer of nationalistic and fascist songs so prevalent in Turkey. He's actually an expert on the history of Turkish music and their history of censorship. Your reply and selective uses of his writings will not go unanswered. Had you ever the opportunity, like I did, to attend one of his speeches, you would know that all these lies are formulated to ruin him and are absolutely groundless. He's the director of the Association of Freedom of Expression and a strong advocate of Turkey's modernisation. You should retract your statements lest someone actually perceives your comments are in support of the ultranationalists.

And for your information, the term 'modern' here does not imply what you claim: read once more the context under which the words were used. The man is a specialist, and it was published in a book. You cannot substitute this with an obscure website which has no quality control or a peer review check. Websites can publish anything they want, and this can't compare with someone who specialises in Turkish cultural studies. As for your edit summaries - the first one is unacceptable; as for your second, I did read your discussion with VartanM, but I have yet to find any valid arguments brought forward by you. In fact before the 1990s, there was not a single publication supporting the notion that the music was Azerbaijani. There are in fact several books which state it being Armenian, or at the very least as Turkish, describing a love story with the Armenian 'bride.' It's preposterous and silly to claim that this song has an Azerbaijani provenance because it conflicts with history and then the context and content of the song itself do not point in any way to support such a notion. If you're going to answer, please do so without making disparaging remarks which are known to be baseless fabrications against authors whomdo not agree with you.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 00:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Whatever impression you got of this author based on your personal interaction with him is your business, of which I have no interest. I strive for academic neutrality, so you being "shocked and appalled" with my assessment of this source does not really influence this discussion in any way. And no, there is no rule on Misplaced Pages that will forbid me to say what I have said, so please avoid this method of argumentation in the future. It won't work on me.

He might be ten times more of a composer, but the mere fact of him meeting so much opposition and his choice of words with regard to this particular topic makes him appear extremely biased. Using the world "fascist" out of context and applying it to someone who is nationalist at best is not particularly a sign of neutrality. Parishan (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted back the statement that it is of Azeri provenance. As previously stated, songs handed down through oral traditions vary in many ways and spread through many geographical and ethnic areas. The quoted source is simply not enough to conclusively prove that the song is solely Azeri. The manner of oral traditions and the lack of recording technology makes it nigh on impossible to assert that any one particular ethnicity is the owner of this song. The fact that it has long been popular in many regions emphasises this. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 17:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What was wrong with the quoted source? It is third-party and seems credible. Parishan (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a website in Persian, while there is a reliable source on musicology in English. Gazifikator (talk) 04:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

But if a credible source is saying that it has an Armenian origin, that should be mentioned. Meowy 19:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough but there's no need to be absolute about it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 22:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Parishan, I’ll have you know that your ranting and remarks like ‘won’t work on me’ are far from constructive. I have absolutely no interest in making you do anything. I just clarified that your mudslinging of a certain individual is actually baseless and are mere fabrications put forward by ultranationalists. Furthermore, your quotation entirely misses the point and is clearly out of context. The full comment in the parenthesis was 'one of the favourite songs of Turkish fascists' and concerned the song ‘Yaylalar’. You should take the time to read the page. The term was used (you'll even see that most of what seems too biased are because the author is far from being fluent in English and the editor did nothing to rectify the situation) and acquaint yourself with the context. Yaylalar is one of the favorite songs of Grey Wolf sympathisers. You could clearly hear it even during the small celebrations following the killing of Hrant Dink by some Grey Wolf sympathisers. The song is used in army training in Turkey and Kurdish witnesses of the shocking picture of chopped heads reported that it was the only thing they could hear from the pictures’ authors. It's not the first time Şanar Yurdatapan brought that song and the reason for him to do it was to note the irony of the fact that it was used when committing abuses against Kurdish citizens, for the origin of the song is Kurdish itself. I hope your apparent aggressiveness of language was a simple misunderstanding, because, frankly, I won't engage in these conversations if you continue with the same livid language. Cheers.

The recent reverts: The reverts by users who apparently have no use of what is being discussed is unacceptable. Do all parties agree to reinstate Fedayee's version which leaves the origin unknown? Obviously, neither sides is ready to have the others' claim remain there. Does this compromise satisfy both parties? --The Diamond Apex (talk) 04:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Dorood. I am glad to see an Iranian Armenian in Misplaced Pages. The source you mentioned is interesting and should be quoted along with any other valid source. But as other users mentioned probably the tune of this song is now lost in antiquity. As the creator of this article, simply the best thing to do is put WP:RS origin. For me the origin of the song is not an issue, since it is really universal. About aggressive language, in these sort of articles (anything related to the republic of Azerbaijan/Armenia) seems to be the norm. Admins should take a closer look and take harsh actions. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Guys this is funny. This is a folkloristic song in Iran, Republic of Azerbaijan, Armenia and Eastern Turkey. I do not think it was popular in whole Turkey. I think it is baseless trying to find out to which ethnic groups in belongs. Folkoristic music in Armenia, Republic of Azerbaijan and Iran are similar anyhow.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I should not have started this article. I was just impressed by the trilingual version of Alizadeh and I was naive to make the article. Actually seeing all the discussions it created, I wish I did not create it. But after reading

the discussion, I doubt there will ever be a clear origin for folkloric tunes like these. So people should just follow wikipedia policy on WP:RS.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I asked for RS and V but I see this which I reverted. The reasons. 1. Not RS nor V (at most an opinion). 2. the sentence "According to Azerbaijani composer Rahila Hasanova, who relies on researcher Mirali Seidov and arts critic Nasir Rzayev, "Sari Galin" is a part of ancient Turkic ritual, associated with sun worship. This is attested by the analysis of folklore material of ancient Turks." has some problems if unsolved contradicts the Azeri claim of it. What is ancient turkic? The interwiki link does not provide a definition for it. if by ancient you mean according to the usual usage, then the Sari Galin would be of Göktürks-Chinese origin. This must be clarified.--Xashaiar (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a credit on Mirali Seyidov from Azerbaijan Soviet Encyclopedia, vol. 8, p. 329 (brief translation): "born 1918, Azerbaijani literary critic, Doctor of Philological Sciences (1970), Professor (1979). Scientific researcher at Azerbaijani Academy of Sciences (1982), senior scientific researcher at Nizami Literature Institute (1960-67). Participated in the IV International Turkological Congress in Istambul." And I linked the words "ancient Turkic", don't understand why you challenge it. brandt 20:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I guess I could not ask my question clearly. The person you talk about is not the subject of my question. I asked about the meaning of "ancient Turkic". Because if I understand you correctly, you want to add information supporting an Azeri-Turkic origin of the song. But what you have added points to something outside central Asia proper.--Xashaiar (talk) 20:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a good point. Basically it says the song is popular in the Caucausus, Anatolia and Near East. But it does not say Central Asia or Siberia. The Turk speaking groups that entered the region (Seljuqs and even assuming occasional incursions by Jewish Khazars) were not sun worshippers. The Seljuqs were Hanafi Muslims. The Balaban/Duduk/Mey is not part of Central Asia or Siberia either. So the song is probably local to the Caucusus and Anatolian region and rules out anything with sun worshipping ancient Turks (since such groups did not exist in the area of the Caucusus). It can be played on other instruments but it seems to be natural for the Balaban/Duduk/Mey. I have added a Mehr/BBC report though which is a news report and also one from Zaman newspaper. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 05:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Turks were no sun worshippers and this song has nothing to do with it anyway. Ancient Turks were shamanist and their gods included animals too. Roughly said they had a religion like Hindus. Sun Worshippers is a simplistic interpratation of parthians. As Nepaheshgar also said the instrument and composition of this mucial piece reveals its origin as a local song, belonging to Northwestern Iran, Southern caucasus and eastern Anatolia. It is defeintely not an ancient Turkic = East Asian song. And I do not get this Brandmeister. He has vconverted to Catholicism, hates perso-Arabic acript and loves latin Script. he probably wants to be European and sees his native cultyure as inferior, but his insistence on East Asiatic Chinese Mongolian origin of his native folklore sounds funny too me and illogical in this respect--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Who is Sanar Yurdatapan

Sanar Yurdatapan is a composer and a human rights activist. He is not a historian or philologist. The second source claiming Armenian origin of the song is a newspaper. Both sources are non-specialist and thus not reliable. Clearly, the song's origin is obscure, and cannot be established. Indeed, the song itself is in Turkish or Azeri. How can one establish its Armenian origin? On which basis? I suggest that any claims of origin coming from unreliable sources be removed. If a truly specialist source is found, we can use it. Otherwise, referring to human rights activists and journalists as sources on song origins is not good. --Grandmaster 05:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Please, read the previous section of discussion page. --Movses (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC).

I read. How a composer and a human rights activist, and a journalist in a newspaper can be sources on a song origins? Please explain. Neither of them are experts in history, and neither conducted any peer reviewed research about the topic. I'm sure there are journalists and composers in Turkey saying the opposite to what these people say. So what? Such people cannot be considered experts on such issues. Grandmaster 15:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Turkish songs are belong to the Turkish civilization

how could it be done? this Turkish lyrics are related to the mass massacres done by Armenian terrorists. now you claim it is an Armenian song? oh really? 500.000 turkish civilians killed by armenian terrorists and the users like Kansas bear are making laugh after this tragedy. it is not fair. put your sources.--Alpha Beta Gaga (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

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