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Geographic Table

Bobthefish2, above, you say you "Even now, Tenmei has not deleted his useless geographic names table when he was already told they were totally irrelevant." Do you mean the table labeled "Table:Islands in the group"? If so, I apologize for not noticing before that you thought those were irrelevant. Aren't they a standard inclusion for groups of this type? I checked Hawaii, Japan, and U.S. Virgin Islands; on the latter two you have to go to Geography of Japan, etc., but it seems like that kind of info is included. Or are you referring to something else? Qwyrxian (talk) 09:48, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Senkaku_Islands_dispute#Geography_section_intro_sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/Senkaku_Islands_dispute#Geography Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Still being ignored Bobthefish2 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC).

A quick review of other island articles included in Template:Territorial disputes in East and South Asia reveals corollary tables, e.g.,

• Senkaku Islands, table was initially created by Winstonlighter here, 12 September 2010
• Kinmen, table initially created by 218.172.215.65 here, 5 May 2004
• Macclesfield Bank, table initially created by Ratzer here, 24 May 2007
• Paracel Islands, table initially created by San9663 here, 2 Nov 2010

In context, these do not appear to suggest issues relating to WP:Ownership. --Tenmei (talk) 15:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh...Bobthefish2, you're saying you think the table should be removed from Senkaku Islands dispute? In that case 1) I support this idea, and 2) we should discuss it over there. Is that correct, or do you have a problem with the table here (where I would support keeping it)? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you got it right. I didn't delete it myself because I felt it is a good example of User:Tenmei not listening to others and proceeding to do whatever they wanted. I hope User:Tenmei will, as a sign of good faith, delete it and acknowledge there's a good reason for it not to be there. After all, everyone here should strive to be responsible editors. Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I've started a thread on the other talk page. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:15, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, it's about the name ordering in the table. I've reverted the persistent effort to change nothing but the name ordering in this article. This talk page has an HUGE discussion about this issue since Nov, 2010 but no consensus has ever been reached. --Winstonlighter (talk) 05:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

W-Lighter, this issue was settled weeks ago. You don't have to be consulted to achieve consensus. If you have a case for changing the table as you did, feel free to make it and try to get consensus for your change. Otherwise, please do something constructive. Thanks, 06:04, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You might need to point me to the appropriate thread on this (since I don't really keep tabs on the name-ordering issue), but I don't really remember there is a consensus on changing the name-ordering. Of course, even though I don't care about the name-ordering myself, others (such as yourself and Winston) may not share my sentiment on the matter Bobthefish2 (talk) 11:22, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Without looking back, I don't understand how this can even be a discussion. The title of the article is Senkaku Islands. That's consensus supported by policy. Since the English name for the island group as a whole matches the Japanese name, it only seems logical for the Japanese name to come first. What logical reason is there for the Chinese names to come first? Qwyrxian (talk) 11:57, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You can always check the previous threads to see what others say. Again, I don't really care. Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:46, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Responding to the question Qwyrxian presents in the last sentence of the diff above:

• Question: What logical reason is there for the Chinese names to come first?
• Answer: In October 2010, Winstonlighter explained ,
  "I'm concerned about this because by chronography,
  Chinese names and records will go ahead of the Japanese ones." I can only wonder if this is the crux of Winstonlighter's argument? In this context, it must be noted that chronography redirects to our article on chronology, which suggests a distinction without a difference? According to Winstonlighter, "the changes on name ordering have been reverted by adminstrators, me and many others in the past whole year" prior to October 2010 when an explicit talk page thread asking for consensus on Name ordering was created.

Compare threads which considered the subject of "name ordering", e.g.,

• Archive 4: here, here, here and here
• Archive 6: here
• Archive 7: here, here, here and here

Expanding, supporting and emphasizing the core point Qwyrxian presents in the diff above: Yes, the name of this article — Senkaku Islands — is the result of consensus supported by policy and redundantly repeated, exhaustive research applying a variant-Bayesian inference and analysis of Google search results, etc. ... and extended discussion

Compare threads which considered the subject of "article name", e.g.,

• Archive 1: here, here, here, here, here, here, and here
• Archive 2: here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, hre, and here
• Archive 3: here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
• Archive 4: here and here,
• Archive 5: here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
• Archive 6: here, here, here, here, here, here, and here,
• Archive 7: here

In other words, a mere straw poll conducted among a few active editors who demonstrate intensity of preference is not consensus and polling is not a substitute for discussion. The edit history of this talk page is a compelling record, including many threads which address "name ordering" and "article name" and the relationship between them. --Tenmei (talk) 21:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:TL;DR. However, I hope you know what's Bayesian inference. It's one thing to use scientific terms and it's another to apply them aptly. Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:53, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I sure don't know what it means. In any event, what Tenmei says here isn't really all that relevant--I'd like to here from Winstonlighter why after months of disappearance xe believes that xe can revert the page back to a much older version without a rationale, and against what seems, to me, to be common sense. WL could well have a good, rational reason for preferring the Chinese names first, which I'm hoping xe will provide, so we can see if they have any merit in light of the article naming issue being settled. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, I didn't miss that (you didn't need to biggify it), although that's just because I happened to actually to try to scan through everything you wrote (not something I always do successfully). In any event, though, I want Winstonlighter to say it now, after such a long time. I want evidence that WL retains the same logic or plans to show us an argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:08, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe it is that hard to understand actually. If my memory serves, the name-ordering issue was last brought up when I called a WP:BRD on User:John Smith's edits. In the end, no agreement was reached and I recalled that User:San9663 had a similar stance as User:Winstonlighter. Presumably, the original ordering had Chinese names going first.

By the way, I'd like to add a point about delayed editorial action - Even if something managed to stay for a moderate to long period of time, it shouldn't mean its legitimacy cannot be disputed. In our case, both User:Winstonlighter and User:San9663 seemed to have taken a (partial or full) wiki-break. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

San9663 has simply disappeared, so we have no idea when or if he might come back. Winston, on the other hand, has continued to edit, even if he hasn't done much since last year. He had an opportunity to involve himself in the page editing and the discussion. He didn't say that he was going to be off for a certain period of time, so there was no reason to have to wait for his approval or input. He hadn't contributed to the discussions here and on the other article since October last year.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone said on the talk page last month "I strongly oppose the changes because of X,Y,Z but am not reverting to avoid an edit war - let's discuss it further". I thought that there was acceptance (whether reluctant or positive) to the table being reorganised. John Smith's (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe what Winston did was that he acted on a change was made in a way that was at odds to what was agreed (or not) on an issue. For a sparsely populated page like this, changes can sometimes be made without others noticing. For instance, I do not keep track of every edit. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean he "acted on a change was made in a way that was at odds to what was agreed (or not) on an issue"? Also you were involved in the discussion over the geography table. However, Winston seemed to have lost all interest in this issue for about 4 months. John Smith's (talk) 22:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

In a nut-shell, the state of consensus (or lack of consensus) did not appear to have changed since Winston last visited. There's also no WP policy that states an editor has to be persistently interested in a page in order to contest any changes. What's important is that he follows the rules of WP. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Restart then

Okay, so, it appears that it's quite unclear what had consensus when, and therefore what the "default" state of the article currently is. Fine, whatever, let's move forward, because arguing about who did or didn't edit properly is getting us nowhere towards resolving how the article should be from now. So, personally, I think the current order is correct, because (as I said above), the most common English name for the islands was found to be Senkaku, which is also the Japanese name for the islands. Thus, since Senkaku is the name of the article, it makes sense to me that it is the "primary" name to be used inside the article, and thus it makes sense to me that the Japanese names should be first. Does anyone have a reason why that is incorrect, and there should be a different order?

Edit-warring

I just came across the following comment put on STSC's talk page by Bob.

"Let's just get the two pages locked so that they will move on and go mess with better-monitored pages like "Japan in World War II" and "Nanjing Massacre"."

Can we please not have anyone deliberately engage in edit-warring to get the page locked? :( John Smith's (talk) 00:55, 29 January 2011

ENDORSE hopeful comment response by John Smith's above. --Tenmei 03:26, 29 January 2011 ... Follow-up: In the strained context created by Bobthefish2's provocation here, a constructive next step is to restate and underscore my approval of John Smith's blunt, no-nonsense words above. In fact, WP:AGF is drained of meaning by WP:POKING — which is a wiki-speak way of echoing what John Smith's meant when he suggested "put the spade down and stop digging" here --Tenmei (talk) 06:24, 30 January 2011 ... More: In response to more poking here, please "stop digging" --Tenmei (talk) 17:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess this shows, beyond a doubt, that Tenmei and John Smith's are all about criticizing STSC and myself just for the sake of doing so. Here's the original comment to STSC, with selective bits intentionally clipped off:

Don't start a revert war with them. ' Those Japanese editors are very keen at being Wiki-lawyers and slamming users with "warnings". Let's just get the two pages locked so that they will move on and go mess with better-monitored pages like "Japan in World War II" and "Nanjing Massacre".

By the way, have you recovered from your motorcycle accident?

If the majority of us can't even exercise a fair bit of objectivity and reasoning in the editorial process, then I find it doubtful that anything positive can actually come out of it. The fact that Tenmei joined John Smith's in this foolishness seems to suggest all his elaborate use of flamboyant language is nothing but a facade that covers up a closet disregard for WP:NPOV. Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I see you don't explain what "Let's just get the two pages locked" means. You probably think that you're not edit-warring at the moment - but you are. Perhaps you're trying to be disruptive enough so that the pages get locked again but without you getting blocked? Prove me wrong - stop reverting people on this page and the daughter article on the territorial dispute. John Smith's (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

My dear John Smith, as a reputable editor, you should understand there are many legitimate ways to do this without being disruptive. Since I am sure you love to cooperative with me, you shouldn't assume bad-faith on my part. After all, I do have a history of making fair statements and edits. So why don't you be a good little brit and refrain from jumping with joy and excitement upon my every comment? Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to cooperate with some who edit-wars, bob, especially if they make nasty comments like calling me "a good little brit". You're not endearing yourself to anyone with this attitude of yours. Maybe it's you who needs to go somewhere else, rather than hope the pages get locked and other people despair of ever making meaningful progress. John Smith's (talk) 00:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry that you find my comments nasty. Sometimes, it can be hard not to lose patience with people that I find to be of (without pointing any fingers) far inferior editorial caliber, although I do sincerely try to be more tolerant. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with being a brit. Even though the British Empire no longer rules the world or exists, Britain is still a reputable country just as you being a reputable editor (which I acknowledged many many times!) - and I am a big fan of Manchester United, which is a British soccer team.

If you do genuinely want to cooperate with me, I feel it is actually not that hard to achieve. All it takes is a little good faith, a fair bit of respect for WP:NPOV (which can be quite fair these days), and some love for Manchester United.

Friends? Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:32, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Calling someone "little" is patronising and rude, which is bad enough. But you've managed to just cap that by suggesting that I might be ashamed of my nationality because the Empire is gone. Listen, why don't you just put the spade down and stop digging? John Smith's (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry John Smith, "little" is an endearing term in Chinese. For example "my dear little sweet heart" is an expression of affection rather patronization.

I didn't mean to insult Britain as a country. My impression of your previous post is that you were offended by the fact that I called you a brit (possibly because you felt the Japanese are cooler? Well, I don't know) and all I was trying to do was to explain that it is cool to be a Briton and that there's nothing to be ashamed of in being one.

Here, let me cool things down a little bit with a cartoon.

Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Alright, lets all just calm down. As I said on Bobthefish2's talk page, there's no way the Btf2 is edit warring, since he hasn't edited the article even once since the comment to STSC. Yes, you can edit war without breaking 3RR, but you can't edit war if you're not editing at all. So let's all just slowly back away...I, for one, would still like some clarification from Btf2 in the section above this one, as it appears he had some problem with one table or another, and I wasn't even sure which table was the problem. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I've already replied to the above section. What I meant was summarized in the two links. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I thought those were Tenmei's comments. I'll look at the links you provided. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

EAST ASIAN language infobox

Kusunose, I won't tolerate any POV-mongering such as this edit summary. a box from the same template appears on the East Asia article, and I am sure that more irrational people than you would have contested its inclusion there. But it remains, and that's that. If you have a problem with the language size, take it up at Template talk:Chinese, not here. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 13:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

HXL49, I removed the box you added to the article. The template is needed in the linked article because the article body does not say how it is called and written in native languages of the East Asian countries. But not here. The native names are already in the info box and the lead. I don't find the reason of the addition. Oda Mari (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a better reason, but still. If you read my first edit summary, I said "as the intro is getting to be a language mess". I propose limiting the intro to Japanese Kanji and Traditional Chinese (b/c the islands are closer to TW), and remove the full name and both transcriptions. I am still disappointed that people would oppose such an addition. The clean-up process is a work-in-progress thing, and only an editor trigger-happy enough would be quick in noticing my addition. No one has ever stopped me when I have added the box to other articles. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 16:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, {{Chinese}} template gives readers impression that the Chinese names is more important than other language names because of its size. The template is fine if it is used on articles primarily about Chinese culture. But I believe its use on articles other than those is inappropriate, especially where there are controversial naming issues like this article. --Kusunose 16:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I still dare you to remove it from there, and see what reaction you get. If you have an issue, either increase the font size at the template itself or raise an issue there. Neither has been done. and frankly, I care more about Oda Mari's input because s/he gives a far better, non-political reason. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 16:32, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I found that {{Chinese}} page has a link to {{Infobox East Asian}} which addresses my concern about character size. I'm not going to remove it from East Asia but want to replace it with {{Infobox East Asian}}. Unfortunately, {{Infobox East Asian}} is not as versatile as {{Chinese}} so it cannot be used as a substitute. --Kusunose 16:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

well definitely no substitution on the East Asia article, because of all the varieties of Chinese used, and Vietnam is considered by some to be culturally East Asian. The one issue is that people in Taiwan largely speak Min and Hakka, which Infobox East Asian does not include. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 16:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Focusing on this article, I don't see what value that infobox adds. We already have all of the names elsewhere. I'm not so concerned with the size, but I am concerned with the idea of giving precedence to the Chinese names (by devoting a whole box that focuses primarily on them). If there is ever a time in the future where the title of this article becomes "Diaoyu Islands," then I could imagine adding this template. But I don't see why we need such a large template to focus on the secondary names for the article/islands. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Adding: perhaps, though it's because I don't understand the purpose of this box. Why do we need a box showing the different forms of specifically the Chinese name of this place? Why isn't the text sufficient? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

As I see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)#Box format, we would use a language box when the text is not sufficient, i.e. when adding various Chinese characters and romanizations to the text hampers readability. --Kusunose 01:02, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

And I see from that link that use of the box is a consensus based editorial decision ("It is up to the contributors to each individual article to determine together what information should or should not be included in such a box, or whether they want a box at all.") Well, I, for one, don't think the box belongs there; we would have to include a similar box for Japanese for POV reasons, and then it's just getting silly. I personally don't find the lead confusing or unreadable, so I think it should stay out. But, consensus calls...Qwyrxian (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

This entire debate is downright ridiculous because even the Spratly Islands article uses the Template:Chinese. And Qwyrxian, obviously the name "钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿" is not the simplified form of "釣魚台列嶼". The way the article presents the abbreviated name and the full name is inaccurate and a direct copy of the source code of ZH-WIKI (釣魚台列嶼，或称钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿). For your reference, 或称 means "also known as" --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 02:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Then we should fix the names in the text. Again, inclusion of this infobox is one of editorial agreement. This article exists in a very delicate POV balance, and, as such, may have to have compromises not seen on other articles. The amount and placement of the Chinese names has long been a complicated one here, and the infobox upsets the basic balance we've set up. Of course, if consensus decides to add it, it can go in. But you need to get that consensus first. Note that several different parts of Misplaced Pages policy, including WP:MOS state that while articles have to be consistent internally, we don't need formatting to be consistent across multiple articles. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Good point about MOS. We don't have to follow the use of infoboxes in other articles. John Smith's (talk) 22:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The title/name of this article sounds quite POV

As mentioned in the subject above, the title of this article "Senkaku Islands" sounds obviously POV. The Islands are disputed ones as clearly labeled in one of the categories of this article, as the ref sources the content of this article has been used. I would suggest the title be changed into "Diaoyu / Senkaku Islands", which reflects in NPOV way the names used by the two disputing parties (China including both sides across the Taiwan Strait, and Japan), which has also been used in many English medias. I am going to move the whole part of this article under this new and NPOV title.--Lvhis (talk) 04:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Previous attempts were made to change the name to "Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands" and they've basically gone nowhere. I'd advise you to read all previous discussion on naming dispute to get a feel of what's going on. If you want to help, you are welcomed to post your input and research. Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I just realized the long discussion history on this and reviewed some of those roughly. The disputes on this sounded focusing on "number" results from Google. As my thought, the bottom line here is: the islands are disputed ones, no matter from the viewpoint of history and realistic facts, or from the viewpoint of wp:source. Therefore, the current title or name "Senkaku Islands" is a POV one, and the dual one "Diaoyu / Senkaku Islands" or vice versa is NPOV one. Misplaced Pages is welcomed worldwide by its NPOV, the one of its five "pillars". Actually, outcomes (numbers) of Google search results on different disputed names of the Islands are all big enough already. If one only plays search numbers of Google search while ignores the huge facts of the dispute on the Islands name, it would make Misplaced Pages at least somewhat lose its reputation on this article and its related articles.--Lvhis (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I think your suggestion could set a dangerous precedent. Take the example of the Spratley Islands - should that be moved to "Xinsha/Spratley Islands" plus whatever they are called by the Thais and other claimants? I think that the title should be based not on Google hits but rather on what the majority of maps say, which I believe is "Senkaku Islands". ► Philg88 ◄ 02:00, Wednesday February 23, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any dangerous precedent associated. It's a pretty unique case of diplomatic nightmare (and in my opinion, a set-up by the U.S. to inflame Sino-Japanese long-term relationships). Since most countries gave a wide berth to taking an official position in such a dispute, it's obvious that this is not at all similar to Falkland Islands. But anyhow, sovereignty discussions is a whole different matter, so I will stop at this.

As for your other point, there's little reason to give maps more importance over say... articles from major news media. For the more scientifically-inclined among us, it is well-known that it's not hard at all difficult to manipulate presentation/sampling of data to argue in any direction possible. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You are most certainly not going to move the title.Sorry, that was unnecessarily harsh. This was discussed at very great length before. There is a lot of information in the archives, but the quick and dirty summary is this:

• Policy and guidelines say we need to choose one name, not a joint name. Exceptions are extremely limited, generally fail, and would need a very wide consensus (including at the naming conventions pages).
• In news searches, the two terms are used approximately equally, although its hard to tell because news searches produce both Japanese and Chinese POV links. In scholarly searches, Senkaku had an edge, although not a very significant one. These searches all get very complicated, though, when you look at them, because, for example, it's not enough to say, "Article X uses both Senkaku and Diaoyu" if the whole article uses Senkaku throughout and just mentions Diaoyu paranthetically. I tried to do some more complex hand counts of news articles, and again found Senkaku with an edge, but not a huge one.
• In other encyclopedias we could check, one had none of the three terms, and one had Senkaku as the entry. I wish other people would check their local library, as I don't have access to one.
• I did, though, have time to look at the almanac section of a university library while in the US one day. Every single almanac that listed these islands either listed Senkaku first, or listed Senkaku only. This, for me, was the key tipping factor.
• Since we have to choose one and only one name, the only alternatives are take the Senkaku edge and leave it as is (which is what an RfC found by a large margin), or choose "Pinnacle Islands", an alternative US name that is almost never used (like, by a factor of 10 to 1 or more, especially in recent publications).

As such, you are going to need to present a lot of convincing evidence to show that the article needs to change name, especially since the name you recommended is explicitly listed as a bad idea in policy. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• I am not going to re-elaborate my disagreements with User:Qwyrxian's methods (i.e. statistical significance of results, sampling, etc). But if someone's going to attack the problem again, then it'd be a good idea to do it at a linguistic stand point. It's too bad we don't have any linguists among us. I've only taken two grad courses in computational linguistics, so I only have a very basic idea of what kind of sampling methods are reasonable. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• I have gave my two pennies in the reply to user:Bobthefish2 as above. Because POV in the title/name of this article is so obvious, and violates one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, I believe this is a case of so called "extremely limited exceptions" to use dual name. Some search results you (User:Qwyrxian) mentioned above supported my point. Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• This makes sense realistically, but if you've read the previous discussions, you'd notice others like myself have tried this and more. If you are in fact very interested in helping us out with this matter, you should read through this and this thread carefully.

Lvhis, if you look at the policy, it actually says that we have to balance out NPOV with other issues, specifically the need for all articles to have one and only one name. Furthermore, past disputes have shown that all changing to a dual name does doesn't actually solve the NPOV issue, because people just end up arguing that the ordering of the names is NPOV. And finally, the name isn't really NPOV if that is the name used most often in reliable sources, especially those of encyclopedic level. For example, consider, Florence; by looking just at POV, isn't it a violation of NPOV to call it Florence when everyone who lives there call it Firenze? Or, if you want to look at disputed places, isn't it POV to call them the Kuril Islands, when Japan disputes ownership of them and calls them the Chishima Islands? And this doesn't even get into places that are disputed where every town in the area also has a disputed name. This is why WP:PLACE exists, because we have to choose what to call things; otherwise, every single disputed place would have to have a dual title. What about all of the cities in Tibet, or Ireland? Our goal is to choose the most common English name; right now, that looks like Senkaku Islands. If there is ever a time in the future where the actual, commonly used name is "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" (which I actually think there may be, if the trend among some newspapers carries over into the academic fields), then that would be the correct name for this article. At the moment, though, it dos not appear to be. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

(ecx2)As to whether or not this qualifies for an exception, note that neither Kuril Islands nor Sea of Japan qualify for such an exception, and those are nearly as equally disputed. In fact, as far as I know, the only ones that do are a small set of cities, somewhere in Europe (it's in the WT:PLACE archives), where the government itself actually recognizes the dual names. The only other alternative, as I say, is to choose "Pinnacle Islands", which I was considering until I found unanimous support for Senkaku Islands among almanacs.

If you do want to pursue a name change, my feeling is that you'll have to try another RfC, and present new arguments and/or data that haven't been presented before. The last RfC was pretty recent though, so it may not be looked upon too favorably. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

User:Qwyrxian, wall of text doesn't help. If he's interested in helping, he will read up the threads I listed. Within, it contains everything you just said above. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, the last RfC lacked a lot of depth. If you looked at the paragraphs pro and anti, they were ~ 2 sentences each. If my memory serves, our actual discussions on various aspects of the matter spanned many pages. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry...you're right. Perhaps the thing I agree with more than anything else that you said about me in that discussion on that noticeboard is that this naming issue is a hot button issue with me, and I definitely got carried away. Lhvis' initial comment to me sounded like xe was minutes away from moving the article, so I freaked out. I really need to learn to relax a bit sometimes. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your input Lvhis. I don't agree that the article title is NPOV. There is no requirement to have an article title use all names of an island group/territory if its ownership is disputed. E.g. Falklands Islands, not Falklands/Malvinas Islands. We have discussed this quite exhaustively. John Smith's (talk) 07:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion! I sometimes confuse myself. I meant to say that I didn't think the article title was POV. John Smith's (talk) 09:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• I reviewed more of the history of the naming discussion or dispute on this article, and the wp:NPOV, wp:PLACE, and wp:TITLE, and the messages above from all you three users. My feeling is as follows:

1. Clearly the current name/title of this article is POV one. Bobthefish2 and John Smith's said this frankly already. Or at least, it is a hot disputed one, as Qwyrxian expressed. The extent how hot this dispute can be told by the mountain like discussion history record.
2. No consensus on this has been reached yet. That the current title can stay here is due to no consensus as said by user Winstonlighter on 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC) "It's obvious that either Japanese or Chinese names for the disputed islands aren't overwhelmingly more common than their counterparts, according to the previous search research on google scholars and google books. However, Misplaced Pages also states that when there is no consensus reached, it will hardly change anything." But hardly change anything does not mean the POV problem has been solved.
3. The case of naming this title is not a clear-cut one as mentioned in wp:PLACE, and wp:TITLE, if one insists on using single name. I strongly feel this is the case of "extremely limited exceptions" to use dual name.
4. Some examples or precedents above: Florence/Firenze - does not work because the margin between using Florence and using Firenze is larger than the one between using Diaoyu/Senkaku, and Florence is more English one; Falklands/Malvinas, similar to the case of Florence/Firenze and Falkland is even more English one, that happen to be generated and used by UK. Kuril/Chishima is a bit comparable, but I think we still need deal with these case by case.
5. To reflect NPOV of wiki's important policy, I believe for the time being we can put the template {{POV-title}} on the top. It serves two functions here: a) warn readers and editors this title is not a consensus NPOV one, and tell them the wiki does not take side on the naming dispute; b) encourage them to participate in the discussion. This template should stay there till a consensus can be reached including the article can be peacefully moved or peacefully stayed.

Thank all of you. --Lvhis (talk) 01:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

done with adding the template {{POV-title}}.--Lvhis (talk) 01:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I highly doubt consensus will be reached given my experience with this page. If you want to score a breakthrough, you'd need to provide some pretty convincing analysis and evidence that makes logical and statistical sense. For reference, you can also read some of my old arguments in that RfC I gave you (which were mostly being ignored). Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Question for Lvhis: Can you please explain where you don't see consensus for the current name? I just looked back at the most recent RfC, and I do see consensus for the current name. The only objections I see are 1) Bobthefish2, 2) San9663, who was objecting only at the beginning, and more to the process of data gathering, as I saw, and 3) Jiang, who wasn't objecting to the name but instead claiming that the search results were wrong (which we determined were because he used Google searches incorrectly). Several previously uninvolved editors commented that the name as it stands is the correct English name (note, that is what we are looking for--not the "neutral" name, but the name that is most commonly used in English). Note that consensus does not mean a majority, but it also doesn't mean 100% agreement. Maybe I, because of my strong opinion on this subject, am seeing consensus where it did not actually exist, so that's why I'd like to hear why you think there wasn't consensus. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I remember writing a section about how that RfC was set up in a way to favour a certain outcome. If my memory serves, the RfC was submitted before I had a chance to summarize the term frequency data we found. The introductory text was very short given the high dimensionality of our problem. It also omitted much of the issues we were discussing. If we look past my additions (which occurred after much of the voting took place), your part of the introduction had almost nothing useful. It is as if you summarized the 1000-page American Health Care Bill in 1 paragraph and asked people to vote on it.

Looking back into our old discussions, it does appear to me that this "naming-issue" evokes some very strong emotions from you. For example, phrases like "compromise is considered a failure" seem to suggest you've already made up your mind about the issue regardless of evidence (something you angrily accused me of committing multiple times). Since you tend to be a responsible editor, it's important for you to know whether or not your objectivity is compromised. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I vaguely recall that "compromise is considered a failure" comment, but I don't remember the exact context. Thus, I'm not sure what I meant at that moment, but I think I can clarify what I think that phrase means now. Misplaced Pages does not strive for compromise, it strives for consensus. So, for example, we should never have a case where 2 editors say "Since we can't agree, let's just put in both (POV/quotations/sentences/whatever)." Regarding this specific issue, we can't "compromise" on the name; instead, we must, if we can, pick the name that is most commonly used in English. If we were to choose Senkaku/Diaoyu, it should only be because that is the actual name used in English sources, not because one side thinks it should Senkaku and the other side thinks it should be Diaoyu and thus we compromise on a mixed name. In other words, consider the mixed name not as a POV compromise, but as one of 5 possible names for the article: Senkaku, Diaoyu, Diaoyutai, Senkaku/Diaoyu, or Pinncale. Now, if sources did show that the mixed name was the most common, I would accept that, and move on. But that's not what the sources show. At best, they show an uneasy mix between S alone, Diaoyu alone, and S/D together. Unfortunately, accurately measuring that mix is nearly impossible given that it would require a hand count, which I tried to do but even found that to be giving me wacky results. To me, the almanac and (minimal) encyclopedia evidence completely sealed the deal, but, of course, if presented with other evidence, I would change my opinion.

Part of what concerns me is that I just don't understand what we need to do to put this issue behind us (at least for a few years, until sources change). Re-raising this issue every few months takes a lot of effort and pain, and never gets us anywhere other than where we are right now (a majority, but not totality, of editors support the current name). What do we need to do to end this discussion and say, "Not everyone agrees, but this is the best we have for right now"? Note that I'm not trying to shut this discussion down, but to figure out what steps you (Bobthefish2, Lhvis, etc.) think we need to take that ensure we are moving forward and not just spinning around in circles, repeating the same discussions over and over again. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It may help if you and User:Lhvis have a private initial discussion on the relevant angles of the problem first. This will give a general scope of the problem (which we did not adequately provide). It may also be convenient to leave the word usage matters to a bit later since it is rather complicated to resolve. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Per Bobthefish2's doubt and question, I strikethroughed "consensus" somewhere in my note above.--Lvhis (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Answer to Qwyrxian's question regarding last RfC: the last RfC is just a part of long record of this naming dispute. Neither can it be taken as a final conclusion on this dispute nor can it solve the POV problem for the current title. The only consensus, if we can call it consensus, is that there has exited drastic dispute on this article's naming. So putting that template on the top may be a relative realistic way we can do for now, and also a compromising way from me. I personally believe the dual name D/S or S/D would be the best in terms of NPOV. A lot of evidence listed by editors/users involved in this dispute has been there already, and the key problem is how to interpret them. --Lvhis (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this handled with English version redirects so that people looking for the erroneous term will still find the correct article while foreign language wikis can use whichever term is the most popular in that language? Hcobb (talk) 05:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The problem is that we can't agree what the English version of the name is.

Also, as far as the tag...well, I don't really mind it being there, as I can see the justification for it (even though NPOV isn't the only policy we have to follow with regards to article naming). It is a little sad to think of it staying up indefinitely, but at least I understand the complaint. I wish I could figure out how we could get a firm, strong consensus like Sea of Japan or Spratly Islands (that is, one written directly into the guidelines). Qwyrxian (talk) 05:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: I was just re-reading WP:PLACE, and found a relevant point regarding dual names. It explicitly says "There are occasional exceptions, such as Biel/Bienne, when the double name is the overwhelmingly most common name in English (in this case, it has become most common because it is official and customary in Switzerland; the usage does not appear to be controversial). This should not be done to settle a dispute between national or linguistic points of view; it should only be done when the double name is actually what English-speakers call the place." That means, as I've said before, that this article doesn't meet the exemption, because even though many news articles do use both names, they do so by listing them separately, not by actually writing them as Senkaku/Diaoyu or Diaoyu/Senkaku. Since English-speakers don't "call the place" the dual name, it's not an acceptable name for this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, WP doesn't have a standard for dual name usage. Biel/Bienne's case is certainly convenient, but I've not seen anything about them being the limiting conditions. In the end, it's just a matter of WP:COMMONSENSE. But again, we've been through this before. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what? The quote that you're responding to right here is about dual names, taken from the guideline (i.e., standard) on naming articles about geographic places. It explicitly says not to use dual names except in cases where "the double name is actually what English-speakers call the place." I don't understand how you can say that there is no standard. I hate to sound like the wikilawyer you think of me as, but the guideline is very clear here: unless we can establish that the dual name is the commonly used English name, it cannot be the title of this page. I know, I know, you may be thinking of WP:IAR, WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. However, my stance, not just here but everywhere on WP (after my first few months editing) is that local groups (our group of editors here) should not override site-wide guidelines and policies (which is written right into WP:Consensus). Oda Mari, I'm pretty sure that Bob is right that inserting new comments in the middle is acceptable so long as it's done to show the thread of an argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Philg88. As far as I know, Nautical charts published in en speaking countries, namely Australia, UK, and USA, use "Senkaku Shoto" and this is en WP. I don't think the article title is POV. I'll remove the template. If you disagree with me, please provide RS that the en charts use a different name or the article title is not NPOV. Oda Mari (talk)

Hi please face the fact here: within around 26 hous the discussion here has pile up such long in size. Please see here and here. Please do not remove that template, thanks.--Lvhis (talk) 06:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The linked pages are not RS. The first one is a blog. Kristof's wife is a Chinese American. He said "So which country has a better claim to the islands? My feeling is that it’s China, although the answer isn’t clearcut." in September. Looking at the map, not a naurtical chart, on the second link, it says "Senkaku Shoto". Furthermore, both links treat the dispute. It is natural they mention the both names. Oda Mari (talk) 07:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

@Bobthefish2, when you post your new comment, please do not insert it between past comments. Instead post it on the bottom of the thread. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 07:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Negative. There is little reason to post it at the bottom of the thread when I was addressing a specific post. It is also common practice. Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, User:Lvhis, don't let this revert discourage you. You have no doubt just experienced your rite of passage in this page. For your benefit, you should read up on WP:RS to get an idea on what's a reliable source. Since User:Oda Mari asked for an WP:RS, you can simply search for something from CNN, CBC, BBC, scholarly journal, etc, that supports your position (if any exist). Enjoy. Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little uncomfortable with Oda Mari's revert of the tag. I was figuring that the tag could stay for a while, while we tried, once again, to hash out the name. I'm loathe to revert Oda Mari to re-add the tag, though, because I'm afraid that that will practically guarantee full protection of the article. Ugh... Qwyrxian (talk) 08:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, I don't want to have to debate the name every time a new editor makes a complaint. The discussion is, for now, closed. We should focus on other things. John Smith's (talk) 09:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a wise choice. If the page is locked, then we might have to waste some time dealing with an ANI about User:Bobthefish2 baiting hapless editors into edit-wars to get pages protected.

Jokes aside, we might not necessarily have an immediate need of bringing out the issue again. If User:Lvhis turns out to be not that interested in going through with this in the end, then maybe we can simply devote our energy on other more immediate matters. Given the amount of work involved, I am probably not going to do this unless I know there are others who are interested in helping. On the other hand, if he is actually quite serious and devoted into dealing with this matter, then that's a different story. Bobthefish2 (talk) 09:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I fully support Lvhis' solution to preserve Misplaced Pages's neutrality while there's ongoing disagreement on the current title.STSC (talk) 10:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

STSC, please do not reinsert the tag. All editors are alerted to the objection, and there has been detailed, recent discussion about what title the article should have. The tag should not be used simply because some people are still not satisfied with the article title. Someone will always be unhappy, so should the tag always be there? Clearly not. John Smith's (talk) 10:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I assume the article will be fully protected by the time I wake up tomorrow morning. Unless, maybe, both sides stop. It doesn't even really matter which version the article stays in as long as we are talking and not reverting... Qwyrxian (talk) 14:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Whatever, John Smith's, you and your gang just cannot provide any valid reason to remove the tag, can you? STSC (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

STSC, that is not a helpful comment. Tagging articles are designed to raise awareness for discussions, not lodge an official protest. If you look at the NPOV page you will see that it states that articles should be tagged only as a last resort. We can't be at the "last resort" stage if we're aware of the situation and discussing it. John Smith's (talk) 16:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You should be careful about what you say, User:STSC. Assuming bad faith is a very bad thing in WP and can give people an excuse to report you for being unWP:CIVIL or having WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob, your sarcasm really does you no favours. You didn't learn anything from the discussion on Wikiquette alerts, did you? John Smith's (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Not much. But let's see... I did learn that you are a person who finds fault in a lot of things. I also learned that a combination of diff's and wiki-lawyering can be quite useful for smearing or character assassination. Then additionally, I was made aware of a few things about User:Qwyrxian.

Anyhow, the Wikiquette did open up some nice opportunities that were previously unavailable. Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Japan-related articles
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• B-Class China-related articles of High-importance
• WikiProject China articles
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• Misplaced Pages In the news articles
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