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Meelar (talk) 23:21, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Greetings, You might want to check out the talk page for William Shakespeare. Particularly the discussion at I believe you were supportive of the consensus that included "particularly the Oxfordian Theory, which has grown in the 21st centuury." There is a deletion of this reference being pushed. Smatprt 01:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back BenJonson! Um... you do realize that you are answering posts that are about a year old? Talk about doin the Time Warp! Smatprt (talk) 02:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Stephen -- Yes, I did realize that I was responding to statements that date back a ways. I take a long term view of this process. I do hope to stay involved on a more regular basis, however. Please keep me posted on issues of concern.--BenJonson (talk) 01:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Brief Chronicles

The article Brief Chronicles has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

New journal, only 1 issue published as yet. Does not even have an ISSN. Article creation premature: cannot yet be notable. Does not meet WP:Notability (academic journals) or WP:N.

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{dated prod}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Crusio (talk) 14:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not possible to address the concerns of the anonymous proposer for deletion for the simple reason that they are based on a priori assumptions. The respondent employs length of publication as the criterion for notability. However, the criteria say nothing about this. They say that "notability refers to being known for such engagement." The journal in question is excerpted by the two most influential literary bibliographical services in the world for its topic areas. Why is this insufficient to constitute "notability?" --BenJonson (talk) 16:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• What about the PROD is anonymous? I signed the prodwarning above and I edit WP under my own name... In addition I tagged the article for the Academic Journals project, so that a bot would warn the members of that project so that they could edit/improve/remove the prod/whatever. Length of publication is indeed in itself not a criterion, but it is exceedingly rare that a journal immediately attains notability upon the publication of its first issue. Meanwhile, another editor has removed the prod, so I'll take it to AfD and we'll see what the community has to say about this. --Crusio (talk) 17:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that was my mistake -- I thought I edited it out. I apologize for the confusion on that point. I'm still getting used to how wikipedia operates. I appreciate your diligence, but I do not find your arguments (which seem to shift each time an objection is raised) to be very convincing. You say that it is "extremely rare" for notability to be achieved after the first issue of a publication. Could you give an example of when it did, or under what conditions it might? The truth is that you simply don't know the answer to that, since we are dealing with a new media, and the standards for what constitutes "notability" are intrinsically ambiguous. But given what those standards are, and especially your own wording that "The most typical way of satisfying Criterion 1 is to show that the journal is included in the major indexing services in its field," it seems to me that you are on shaky grounds. Of course, you could always revise your own standards so as to prevent this entry from being allowed. Is that really what you want to do? Based on what, exactly?--BenJonson (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Brief Chronicles

I have nominated Brief Chronicles, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Brief Chronicles. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Crusio (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

BC Inclusion Discussion

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Brief_Chronicles#Brief_Chronicles

• Ben, I understand you feel strongly about the article, but please consider that nomination for deletion is not a personal matter. Crusio is an experienced and well-respected editor here, and I don't feel that their comments were larded with insults--only one person lards the lean earth as he walks along, as you well know, and it is not Crusio (incidentally, you may be interested in lardon). Please try to keep this as objective as possible and to always assume good faith on the part of editors. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 01:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I was not referring to Crusio in that comment. I found him to be a courteous antagonist, even when we don't agree. However, if you look at what regularly goes on hereshakespeare authorship, with the comments by Nishidani or Tom Reedy, for example, you will see what I mean (and yes, I've given as well as got in that venue, but its always in response to the vulgarities of editors of that sort, who profess to be skeptics but are in fact very from being so. But I will try to keep your advice in mind. Thanks.--BenJonson (talk) 02:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• OK, sorry. I thought, since it was in that AfD, that you were referring to Crusio. I'm staying out of the other discussion--my personal contention is entirely unoriginal: I maintain Christopher Marlowe wrote everything, including Jonson and Milton's works. Drmies (talk) 02:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Lol. Fine with me. He survived his assassination and lived in Italy until 1623, right? --BenJonson (talk) 03:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

This is to thank ALL those involved in the BC debate, for their passion and intelligence on both "sides."--BenJonson (talk) 23:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Carole Chaski Determined to be Notable. "Speedy Deletion" Shoots from His Hip Again

• Hi Yutsi. Please note the secondary sources included in the article. Thanks.--BenJonson (talk) 01:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I have removed the speedy tag; there is enough of a claim to notability there. The article needs work, no doubt, but speedy deletion is too blunt of an axe for that. Drmies

Thanks Drmies. Much appreciated. --BenJonson (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure thing. Did you see my note higher up on the page? Drmies (talk) 02:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yep.--BenJonson (talk) 23:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Emerson

I'm not sure if your comment was intended for me or for Tom, but you are of course right that Emerson encouraged and supported Delia Bacon to undertake her researches, such as they were. However, that does not alter the fact that the essay from which the extract is taken treats as fact that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the works, so it is inappropriate and misleading to use that quotation as evidence of "doubt" about authorship. I was intending shortly to add a brief section on Emerson's links to DB to the history section, along with Disraeli's comments in Venetia, but all these need to be placed in the specific historical context of Shakespeare studies at the time, not as manifestations of some timeless Platonic realm of repeatedly expressed doubt. Paul B (talk) 14:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Paul, thank you for your response. My remarks were primarily directed at editor Reedy's cavalier use of argument by weasel words and insult. One of the purposes of the page should be -- I hope you will agree -- to tell the history of how doubts over time have developed. In that context, Emerson is an important figure -- as are Hawthorne, Bacon herself, and for that matter Walt Whitman. This is true however one interprets words like "Egyptian." This is a topic on which, unlike Tom, I actually know quite a bit, as for over a decade I have researched a major article, currently under review, which covers a good bit of the 19th century history on the topic. There's much more that needs to be added to the article to give a full account of this chapter in the history. I have no objection, and indeed would support, edits that avoid the oversimplification of merely listing Emerson as a doubter or skeptic. His position, not unexpectedly, was a complex one, which included elements of support for the inquiry with indications that he reserved a more traditional view himself. I believe the article should do justice that complexity, and I hope that you agree. Whitman, by contrast, was a "roaring skeptic" and definite anti-Stratfordian.

You might want to avoid taking potshots at Delia Bacon. Her book, while difficult and sometimes tendentious or misleading, is also brilliant. She is a much abused figure, as Whitman himself both understand and unequivocally stated.

By the way, I was interested to learn a bit more about you and the pages you edit. I applaud your efforts to contribute to a better understanding of issues of race and racial prejudice. If you are interested in the application of that subject to authorship, I cannot recommend highly enough Richmond Crinkley's 1985 Shakespeare Quarterly review of Ogburn. It is a pity that so many people who pretend to know something about the history of the authorship question have not read this article or understood its implications.--BenJonson (talk) 17:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I took any pot-shots at Bacon. Do you refer to my phrase "such as it was"? I meant that she she did not do much actual research in Britain. In particular she did not follow the advice of Carlyle and others to undertake archival work to support her claims. Yes, there's a great deal more that could be added to the article, but we also have to aware of the fact that the article is not a book - it has to be fairly concise to be readable. Paul B (talk) 16:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I meant "such as they were." I appreciate your clarification. Original archival research is only one aspect of scholarship. If you reduce her contribution to the history of Shakespearean scholarship by such a minimalist calculus, imho, you are "taking potshots," even if your intent is not to do so. Here is what Walt Whitman said of her vis-a-vis Carlyle and her other critics:

she was “the sweetest, eloquentist, grandest woman…that America has so far produced….and, of course, very unworldly, just in all ways such a woman as was calculated to bring the whole literary pack down on her, the orthodox, cruel, stately, dainty, over-fed literary pack – worshipping tradition, unconscious of this day’s honest sunlight.”

Here is what Emerson said of her:

America had only two "producers" during the 1850s, "Our wild Whitman, with real inspiration but checked by titanic abdomen; and Delia Bacon, with genius, but mad and clinging like a tortoise to English soil."

Wouldn't you agree that such comments by two such notable men deserve a place in Misplaced Pages, on the Delia Bacon page at least, if not on the SA page? --BenJonson (talk) 22:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The Delia Bacon page is currently very short - a great deal could be added, especially about the actual content of her book. By all means add whatever you consider to be relevant. Paul B (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll add some of this stuff over the weekend. Glad to agree on somethings at least. :) By the way, please don't take this the wrong way, but I do think I admonished you some days ago about being more careful about your spelling and usage. You see now how badly your carelessness reflects on your cause. To the extent that your cause is opposed to mine, then, I hope you continue to screw up. But I would prefer to have you as an erudite Akeelah who realizes that the authorship question is real, and that just maybe you have something to learn from the Oxfordians. --BenJonson (talk) 22:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Ben, you make spelling mistakes all the time. Do you want a list? On the very day you made similar remarks on the reliable studies board you added a so-called "grocer's apostrophe" to the possessive "its". Everyone does it when they write quickly. I have rather poor hand-eye coordination, which scuppered my intended careers as rock guitarist and fast-bowler. I also type on a laptop with a sticky keyboard, so I also make many typos. There is, by the way, a big difference between spelling mistakes and typos. Typos indicate an inability to hit keys with precision. They tell us nothing whatever about literacy. Anyone who regards these matters as of more importance than content and evidence is living in topsy-turvey world. Paul B (talk) 12:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I see that "don't take this in the wrong way" is useless with you. Welcome to the "topsy-turvey world," where spelling does matter, and everyone makes mistakes -- but some people make more than others. --BenJonson (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Critical Survey

Why would anyone create an article and then put tags on it saying that it needs more citations for verification and expanding? Why not add those references when you create the article? And given the discussion about Brief Chronicles, you should now know that indexing is very important in showing notability. The info can be found easily on the journal's website, so why not add it to the journal? Also, the journal has existed for over 20 years, why not mention that? And why not add basic info such as the ISSN?? I really am puzzled about this. --Crusio (talk) 09:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Crusio. I did it to save you the effort. BenJonson (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Pasquilltp.gif

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Talkback

IngerAlHaosului (talk) 04:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Smatprt (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Smtprt.--BenJonson (talk) 13:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Backup listings?

Hi, Ben. I noticed several items popping up in the form of BenJonson:Backup/Oxfordian Theory in the New Pages patrol listings. Curious, what's up? --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 22:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rawr,

Thank you for your inquiry. The page is under attack here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Shakespeare_authorship_question#Merging. My latest information is that hasty decision of user:ScienceApologist to merge the article with the generic Shakespeare Authorship page has been reversed. This is not yet official, but it is my understanding from credible sources. I wanted to make sure all the work on the existing Oxfordian theory could be preserved in some form (even if only temporarily in this form). Thanks.--BenJonson (talk) 02:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Charlton Ogburn's parents

Hey, "Ben". Perhaps you could add information or start an article on Ogburns parents, since they already had written the 37-page The Renaisance Man of England (1947) and of course the 1300-page This Star of England (1952). There are some biographical notes on the Charlton Ogburn papers website. Not in these notes, but in the Mormon database are their vital data: Charlton Greenwood Ogburn, born 19 Aug 1882 Butler, GA, as the son of yet another Charlton Greenwood Ogburn and Irene Florence Wynn, and died 26 Feb 1962. He married 8 Jun 1910 in Atlanta, GA, with Dorothy Stevens, born 8 Jun 1890, Atlanta, daughter of George Webb Stevens and Abbie Dyson Bean. She died 7 May 1981 and there is an obituary for her on page ten of Shakespeare Oxford Society newsletter, Vol.17, No.3.

Charlton Greenwood Ogburn (1830-1890) seems to be the first Charlton; his father had the delightful name Littleberry. I even found a chapter The Pioneer Days of Littlberry Ogburn, so this family is well described for many generations. And Charlton (1830-1890) had an even more famous son, William Fielding Ogburn (1886-1959), whom I just linked to from the Charlton Ogburn page. I never see Charlton (1911-1998) referred to with a middle name, so perhaps the annotations Sr and Jr are not necessary to distinguish them.

I would write something myself, but am only an occasional visitor to the authorship pages and real life keeps interrupting. Hope you can find time to flesh this out. Afasmit (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Afasmit. I appreciate your suggestion, and your excellent legwork. --BenJonson (talk) 02:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick work! Your stub looks good. I've added categories and the Charlton Ogburn papers website and the Oxford Society newsletter as sources, though there may be better material to refer to. Perhaps a bibliography (with ISBN numbers etc) is good; I don't know if his books on Law are notworthy. He seems to have been quite an influential lawyer though; there may be one or more highlights to pick from the Ogburn papers biographical notes. More importantly, perhaps you could emphasize Dorothy's own career as a novelist a bit more. We could have a redirect from Dorothy Ogburn to here. It may even make sense to have the article named after both, like "Charlton Ogburn and Dorothy Ogburn". I wasn't sure if the Bardauthor tag is appropriate, so I added it in hidden form so far. Afasmit (talk) 20:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

My assumption was that we need another page for her; given her importance in the history of the controversy (it was she more than Charlton Sr. who really drove their common interest in the subject), it would seem warranted. If that does not happen, then we certainly need to rename this page and include her with equal prominence as Charlton. What do you think? --BenJonson (talk) 20:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that a separate entry for her is much better. Afasmit (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Roger Stritmatter:Backup/Oxfordian Theory

I have nominated Roger Stritmatter:Backup/Oxfordian Theory, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Roger Stritmatter:Backup/Oxfordian Theory. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Your contributed article, Roger Stritmatter:Backup/Oxfordian Theory

Hello, I notice that you recently created a new page, Roger Stritmatter:Backup/Oxfordian Theory. First, thank you for your contribution; Misplaced Pages relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as yourself. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page - Oxfordian theory of Shakespearean authorship. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will to continue helping improve Misplaced Pages. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at Oxfordian theory of Shakespearean authorship - you might like to discuss new information at the article's talk page.

If you think that the article you created should remain separate, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Misplaced Pages looks forward to your future contributions. —KuyaBriBri 17:56, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Roger. The other way to preserve the article would be to copy it into your talk page, then archive it. Maybe I'll do this at my talk page as well. Smatprt (talk) 18:25, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I just archived both articles here: ] so no worries as to preserving them. Let me know if there are any others you want me to add to this file. Smatprt (talk) 18:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• If you want a personal copy of the article to work upon in your userspace, ask and I'll restore it there. WilyD 21:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephen. Other admins, please delete away. I just wanted to make sure that a copy of the article as it stood could be preserved, in light of the heavy handed methods which were employed to foist the merger on the wikipedia community (via a decision by ScienceApologist, against the explicit wishes of not only a majority of discussants but Jimbo Wales). Thanks for the notification of plans for deletion.--BenJonson (talk) 19:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Friendly reminder...

Please use edit summaries. Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 21:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions

I have called for you to be sanctioned for personal attacks on the WP:AE page. Your uncollegial attacks in the section "Nishidani's vandalism" (nice start!) are very much the kind of thing the Arbitration Committee focused on in the recent case Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question. I assume you have followed it closely? Note especially the principle Talk pages and the remedy Casting aspersions, and please recollect that standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for this and related articles. We're not having that kind of thing on the Shakespeare pages any more. Bishonen | talk 02:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC).