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Manning.org link

Not unsurprisingly a link to manning.org has resurfaced. It is, this time, disguised as information about the board of advisors. The info is entirely primary source and I have tagged it as such. As I read WP:ELNO, the link clearly violates nos. 4 & 19. The fact that they are in a footnote and not a separate EL section does not work as WP:EL pertains to entire articles. I do not see a footnote exception to the guidance. --S. Rich (talk) 15:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Any links from this article to http://www.manning.org/ would be completely inappropriate and should be removed. However, that does not seem to be what you are referring to. Apparently you are objecting to a link to a page on the site http://www.bradleymanning.org/ ("Bradley Manning Support Network"). I cannot think of a source more likely to have correct and up-to-date information about the members of the advisory board of an organisation than the organisation's website. Can you?

Your interpretation of ELNO is not correct. ELNO only overrides our rules for sourcing when that makes sense. It is well established that self-published sources such as organisation websites are normally reliable sources for uncontroversial information about the organisation. If you know of any reason to suspect that the Bradley Manning Support Network is lying about its own advisory board, then you must tell us about it.

But that's not the only reason this edit of yours looks like POV pushing. The drive-by-tagging has already been reverted. Without a rationale on the talk page one can easily suspect that you object to the existence of the organisation rather than to the way it is portrayed in the section. Hans Adler 15:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Removing the drive-by-linking is appreciated. But the section, by its' very title, is POV pushing. True, several groups have developed to support Manning (manning.org, bradleymanning.org, couragetoresist.org, facebook, twibbon.com, etc.). But why is this particular group given prominence in the article? At the same time, where is there mention of the groups who consider him a traitor (facebook traitor page, texasgopvote.com)? Shall we give them a section as well?? Also, ELNO does apply here -- if there was an article about "Manning Support Network", then using their website as a source would be correct. But this is an encyclopedic article about Manning, not his supporters and adding a separate section (using them and their website as the source) for this group is POV. I've tagged the section as unbalanced & citation needed for the first two sentences.--S. Rich (talk) 18:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

S Rich, you were honest enough to note your COI on this issue on your user page. You should perhaps recuse from editing in this area. --John (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't see what the objection to this is. This is an article about Manning's arrest and imprisonment, because he had no notability until that happened. A support group with prominent members has sprung up. It seems entirely appropriate to me to explain its existence in its own section, which would include linking to it. The citation needed tags are inappropriate, because the cites are in the footnote at the end of the paragraph. Or rather they were. I see now that someone removed one of them, so I'll restore it. SlimVirgin 22:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

S Rich, is your objection that the names of the advisory board need a secondary source? SlimVirgin 22:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding John's comment -- There is no COI in this issue. I am a retired Judge Advocate and have no official capacity in the military. For comparative purposes I note that Mr. David Edward Coombs, is in fact, still serving as a Reserve Judge Advocate officer and acting as Manning's civilian defense counsel. Moreover, my JAG career also entailed serving as a Defense Counsel and Chief of Legal Assistance. (In those roles I advocated for soldiers and their families.) In any event, each of my edits is subject to the scrutiny of all other interested editors. So I hope and ask that my thoughts and actions be examined for their merit and not be dismissed by ad hominem fallacious argument. --S. Rich (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

To note an apparent conflict of interest is not per se an ad hominem argument but a comment relating to the credibility of a particular editor's contributions in a certain area. I agree with Slim here, that the support website is notable; I'm not sure that it automatically should have an external link as a result. I do think though, S Rich, that you should consider the impression you are making with your background and the edits you are making. It doesn't look neutral. --John (talk) 22:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Re the supportnetwork section: I note that bradleymanning.org contains a "Sign the Petition" link (http://www.standwithbrad.org/). Again I ask how does the Primary Source inclusion of this website comply with WP:ELNO Nos. 4 & 19? It does not come within WP:ELYES or WP:ELMAYBE. On the other hand, here is a cite that tells us that Manning friend David House helped established the Support Network: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ss_military1276_12_22.asp . Shall we include this as a reference? Perhaps doing so would balance out the section with an "anti-support" subsection. The inclusion of either is a can of worms, which should remained closed. --S. Rich (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I would agree about not mentioning this if it were just a Facebook group or similar, but it has some very prominent members and has been written about by reliable secondary sources, so it would seem obtuse of us not to refer to it. SlimVirgin 23:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Primary sources are okay so long as they're not saying anything contentious or providing analysis, but we're not relying on this as a source of anything, except its own advisory board and who started it. I agree that the support network should not be used as a source. If the advisory board membership is the issue, we can look for secondary sources instead.

If you want, we could have a "public reception" section, which would include as one subsection the support network, and as another the negative public responses. SlimVirgin 23:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed (and thank you!), we used to have such info without a separate section. In any event, we should use the secondary sources. (Also thank you for pointing out how my cn tags were not needed. I apologize for the trouble caused.) --S. Rich (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I've re-sourced everything to secondary sources, but have left one link in the footnote to the group's website, though it's not being used as a source, at least not directly (clearly, secondary sources are relying on it for information, but that's okay for our purposes). See the edit here. SlimVirgin 23:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Srich, the POV tag is still on this section. Does that mean you think it should remain, or can it be removed? SlimVirgin 23:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

My two concerns are: First, that creating the section promotes the support network unnecessarily. We do not have info on those people (networked or not) who are anti-support to counter balance. That is, it is easy to create a "network" with a "board" that sounds impressive, but is this network actually effective? By including it we are promoting it. My view about this promotion of the network is supported by my Second concern regarding the fact that we have a link to the organization contrary to WP:ELNO guidance -- as discussed above.--S. Rich (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. If you want the tag to remain, you'll have to explain what edits you were prevented from making (edits that are actionable within the policies), and how their absence is affecting neutrality. If you want to add other material (what you call "anti-support), you're welcome to do so, but as you haven't done it, and no one has removed it, it's premature to tag. See WP:NPOV dispute. Tags should be used as a last resort.

As for whether the network is effective, that's a separate matter. Lots of reliable sources have written about it, so we do the same. We don't consider whether it's effective, or anything else.

Regarding linking to it in a footnote, ELNO doesn't cover that. But even if it did, I can't see which part of ELNO would apply here. SlimVirgin 00:44, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with S. Rich here, the section reeks of solicitation. Indeed, this article has become something of a tribute page rather then a biography. V7-sport (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

You and S Rich are welcome to add more material to that section, offering a different perspective on the public reaction. No one has prevented that from happening, so it's premature to tag it. SlimVirgin 23:12, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree and have removed the tag. --John (talk) 17:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Alas, I have not prevailed :-( . That's fine. Several weeks ago I removed some of the nasty and inflammatory remarks being made by politicians seeking to show for the nightly news how tough they were. That is, how they wanted to hang/firing squad Manning. I was hoping that WP would not be used as a soap box by either side. But now it looks like the EL camel has gotten its nose under the WP tent with the support network link -- so I've gotten behind the camel and given it a push! Now the camel's eyes and ears are under the tent flap. (And I have, in fact, actually pushed a camel in the past.) So, will the entire camel get into the tent? (After all, if the nose is acceptable, why not the eyes & ears? And then the legs, etc.) In terms of article balance, allowing footnote ELs to some of the nasty headline-grabbing comments by the anti-supporter might be appropriate. But since my background (e.g., supposed COI) is suspect I will defer to others. Besides, the camel did not like it when I gave its' rear a good push! I am steering clear of that end!! --S. Rich (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't really see the point of adding all the related links. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The Camel's nose under the footnote tent was the EL to the Manning Support Network website. (Again, I cannot find any exception for it in the EL policy, not as a footnote nor when an EL is not used as a RS.) But since the nose of this particular EL camel is in the article, the other parts of the camel should be allowed in too, correct? How can we keep them out? These other ELs are just as "legitimate" as any other. For example, my latest addition was Amnesty International's petition to Robert Gates and President Obama regarding the conditions of his imprisonment. Indeed, AI is much more well established as an organization compared to the Support Network. So if the Support Network gets its EL in the article, then AI should as well. And if AI gets its EL in, then others should too.--S. Rich (talk) 06:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've managed to find two more organizations that are supporting Manning. (It's not hard at all.) And like Amnesty International, these supporting organizations have WP articles. So like Manning Support Network (MSN) and AI, those ELs are now in the footnote section. If my point about including the MSN EL from the beginning as being the camel's nose is not appreciated, I guess the next step is a WP:ELN submission. To avoid that bit of work, I ask that all of these organization ELs be removed.--S. Rich (talk) 07:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I've posted this issue to the Misplaced Pages:External links/Noticeboard. --S. Rich (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

There's an objection on the EL noticeboard to this article containing a link to the Bradley Manning Support Network, in case anyone wants to comment. See here. SlimVirgin 06:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I have concluded my remarks on the EL Notice board with the following comment: "This edit , which less "clearly serves to direct readers to the organization's website" is fine in that it complies with the guidance given in ELNO. The website is SPS, but the listing of the advisory board members is not unduly self-serving in and of itself. Presumably, now, if we find a secondary source (such as this one: ) we can use it to describe the advisory board. However, including a link to the support network itself as an ==External links listing would be objectionable in that the Manning article in not about the BMSN. This said, I think we can conclude the discussion. (Most interesting! I thank all who participated and contributed.)" I think the line of discussion here can conclude as well. --S. Rich (talk) 19:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

How Manning found Lamo

For some reason the above named user keeps undoing updates to the article and labelling these complete undos as things like "tidied". First-hand evidence from Adrian Lamo shows that Bradley Manning did NOT read the Wired profile on him before contacting him, but despite this, it is presented under the heading "Manning's chats with Adrian Lamo" deliberately, and misleadingly, trying to link these two events together. The only version of events that we have at the moment come from Adrian Lamo, and he specifically states that Manning found him through a Twitter post he made. There is no mention of this fact, and when this missing information has been added (with solid references) SlimVirgin undoes the edit and claims that he's "tidied" the article. It's my understanding that this sort of knee-jerk "undoing" of any missing relevant and verifiable material is NOT part of Misplaced Pages's guidelines, and instead such information should be incorporated into, not deleted from, in future edits. As ever in these cases, I do not have the time or energy or waste getting involved in an edit war, so I instead am raising the issue here. I hope someone with authority can sort this out. Johnny "ThunderPeel2001" Walker (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

We follow the reliable sources, and they have referred to the Wired profile of Lamo being followed by Manning contacting him, which would certainly make sense. We also include that Lamo said those two events were not connected (though how would Lamo known this?). But we include it because reliable sources mentioned what Lamo said. You seem to want to single out Lamo's view, and remove any other. SlimVirgin 00:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Please refer me to a single reliable source that states Manning contacted Lamo after reading his Wired profile. Johnny "ThunderPeel2001" Walker (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The sources for that are in the article, and include the Glenn Greenwald article you cited yourself. We report that view, and we report Lamo's view that it was the tweet about WikiLeaks that sparked it, though as Greenwald writes, that doesn't explain why Manning picked out that one tweet above all others. The fact is, no one knows why Manning contacted Lamo, because he has not explained, so it's guesswork. We just explain what the various guesses are. SlimVirgin 23:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Nice to see that's been finally added, but it's clear from what you've just written that you're trying to push your own opinion of events. Why? Also, what relevance is it to Bradley Manning that Adrien Lamo has Asperger's? Or that Poulsen used Lamo as a source? More attempts at pushing a link you believe exists? It's far more relevant that Lamo is a convicted hacker, as it's possibly why Manning trusted him. But you don't like that, so it's gone. And speaking of trust, what about the openly revealed reasons why Manning confided in Lamo? Somewhat relevant, no? The promises Lamo said he made to Manning regarding his anonymity. Somewhat relevant at that point in the timeline, don't you think? But no, you didn't like that stuff, so it was reverted, without editing, without discussion, by you. You keep saying "we", but as far as I'm concerned, this feels like your page, and whatever you like or dislike is what gets placed on it. Johnny "ThunderPeel2001" Walker (talk) 00:22, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The section offers both views (contact triggered by profile, and contact triggered by tweet), and it's the same as it was when you were complaining about it. It's not for us to judge what's relevant. These are the issues the best sources have highlighted, so we do the same. The journalist-source promise can be restored if the source is good, but I recall that it wasn't very clear.

If I'm trying to push my own opinion of events, what is my own opinion, as you see it? SlimVirgin 01:09, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Striped naked every night

What??? Every day??? Soldier in Leaks Case Will Be Made to Sleep Naked Nightly Is this a real story???See also I think that might deserver it's own section and brought together with the claims of cruel, unsual & degrading treatment. IQinn (talk) 01:38, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I've add the update from the New York Times. SlimVirgin 03:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for adding but shouldn't we also add some of the criticism that describe this as cruel, unsual & degrading treatment? IQinn (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

We already have Amnesty saying that in general; in fact the section is framed that way, so I think we need to be careful not to over-egg the pudding. If a body like that comes out and criticizes this new rule, we could certainly think about extending it. SlimVirgin 03:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Image of Pentagon lawyer

Iquinn removed the image of the Pentagon general counsel. Can you say why, Iquinn? (Temporarily using this account because of technical problems with my old one.) SlimVirgin test account (talk) 00:48, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

As per the reasons already stated in the related edit summary. "Remove kind of POV interpretation of the source - in addition no strong reason for the inclusion of the image that it is not fully NPOV and does not significantly help the reader understand the related section" IQinn (talk) 00:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I didn't understand what you wrote, which is why I'm asking here. The Pentagon sent him to inspect. He reported there were no issues, and we have a free image of him in a section with no images. I've also requested a free image of Manning's lawyer for that section. What's the problem with using them? SlimVirgin test account (talk) 01:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The source: only verifies that he visited the brig. Nothing else. Morrell expressed his own views of the visit for example that he did not even talked to Manning. To say that Jeh Johnson reported that there were no issues is not given in the source. Not even that he was sent with the mission to inspect the condition.

People focus on images and to highlight one site is not NPOV. Want to include a image of Geoff S. Morrell?

You have newly added the image of Jeh Johnson but you have not given us a single reason for that and why that would significantly help the reader understand the related section that has many views? IQinn (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Morrell is the formal spokesman. He was speaking on behalf of those who visited, and the cutline said he declared the conditions appropriate, which is what the source said. Why aren't you objecting to the other images? None of them really help in the way you're insisting this one must. I'm going to restore it, unless you come up with an actual argument against it.

Look, we have to tell both sides of this story. There's no point in people continually objecting when the side they disagree with is given an airing. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 01:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Just noting that I've requested a free of Manning's lawyer too, and I'm about to start looking for one of David House. So the Pentagon lawyer won't be the only image in that section. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 01:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The image and related text does not balance the section. I does the opposite. Your are threatening and edit war? And you are not answering my questions. The reasons against inclusion are given and the fact is: You have newly added the image of Jeh Johnson but you have not given us a single reason for that and why that would significantly help the reader understand the related section that has many views? Please do so.

How does showing an image of one side adds up to NPOV? The section explains the many views from both sides. Want to clutter the whole section with the images the numerous people who expressed there views on the detention condition? That is after all the BLP of Bradley Manning. Why do we need to high lite one single view with an image. That would need some strong reasons but you have not given us a single reason.

No he is not speaking on the behalf of Jeh Johnson. E.G " I came away enormously impressed by the professionalism of the brig staff and reassured that the manner in which they are housing and treating him is appropriate," Morrell said. You might provide some quotes from the source that would support your position. Thank you

-IQinn (talk) 01:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

We use images to show readers what people look like. Same reason we have an image of Bradley Manning, but you're not objecting to that one. It won't be an image of just one side, because as I've told you I will be adding other images there too. If you don't like the second part of the cutline, then remove or edit it, but stop the blinding reverting. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 01:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I see your account was created four days ago. If you're a new editor, you may want to know that I'm trying to get the page up to featured article status (an increasingly forlorn hope, but a faint spark remains), which would mean it could be featured on the main page. To do that, the article has to be very neutral. That section as it stands is arguably not neutral (I say "arguably" because in fact I think we do accurately reflect the balance of sources, but it's a difficult thing to judge). Adding an image from the opposing side helps to highlight that there is an opposing side, because it's currently buried. And once the other images are added, assuming I can get releases for them, that highlighting will be further dimmed anyway. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 02:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

SlimVirgin you are one of our oldest and most sophisticated WP editors. My account created four days ago? What brought you to this false believe? It is false. IQinn (talk) 02:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm very sorry for that mistake. What happened is that I've having trouble with my SlimVirgin account -- something in my preferences causing a technical issue -- so I created this new account with default preferences to see if it helps. But with SlimVirgin I normally see 1,000 contribs when I look at an editor's history. With this one, I saw just back to March 5 or whenever, and forgot my preferences were different. My apologies! SlimVirgin test account (talk) 02:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I is obviously that it is you who is blindly reverted without answering the questions and engaging in a constructive debate. We do not need this POV image added to the section to show how people look like and it is biased until you add images of the other site that may not even available and all these images would end up anyway in cluttered large collection of dozens of images of people who have somehow weak connection or made some comments? That is the BLP of Bradly Manning and the image of Jeh Johnson and others can be easily found in their BLP's. You have not given us a single reason why the image of Jeh Johnson would significantly help the reader understand the related section that has so many views? Please do so. Thank you. (Addition to the additional comments by SlimVirgin: These opposing views are already in the text of the section and nothing is buried and the text could be edited.) IQinn (talk) 02:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

So if Manning's lawyer gives us an image are you going to remove that one too? Please tell me before he goes to the trouble of organizing one. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 02:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

"too" Uuuuh... i think that has not much to do with the things we discuss here. Does his lawyer has his own WP article? In what section do you want to add this image? After all he is his lawyer. :) As said i do not think that it would be helpful for our readers to clutter the "Detention" section with images of dozens of people who have expressed their views on that topic as it does not significantly help the reader to understand the section that explains all the different views in the text in context. IQinn (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

My intention was to add photographs of both lawyers to the detention section -- from Manning's side, his own lawyer; and from the jail's side, the lawyer for the Dept of Defense who inspected the detention conditions. Or if I can't get Manning's lawyer to release one, then an image of David House, who has spoken about the detention. So are you going to object to all of those, because if you are, please say so, and I can withdraw the requests. SlimVirgin test account (talk) 06:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

As discussed their seems to be no statements made from Jeh Johnson concerning the detention conditions not in the given source. So we could only add the picture "Jeh Johnson visited the brig". On the other site we have tons of statements made by his lawyer. Not only concerning the "strip" naked, sleep and stand naked in front of the other prisoners story. As said not an absolute need for me to include the images of lawyers and no need to include Jeh Johnson's image. There will be many lawyers in this not even started high profile trials. The article has only one image of Manning so far and it should be our priority to add more images of Bradley Manning as this is the BLP about him. No need for a collection of images of other peoples, no head and tail their the articles are not about them the text presents their views and most of them have WP articles where people can see their images. The images of these people do not significantly improve the readers understanding of this section and Bradley Manning the subject of this BLP. It is obviously that many other people will then add other images as well. For example Dennis Kucinich who is an U.S. House of Representatives who came just out on national tv and compares the mistreatment of Bradley Manning with the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghraib. IQinn (talk) 06:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a photo of Manning's lawyer is particularly relevant to this article. I wouldn't object to it, but it would never occur to me to add it – except in a separate section that is specifically about the lawyer. At the moment, such a section does not exist. A photo of someone who merely inspected Manning's detention conditions is even less relevant. I wouldn't mind it very much, but it seem inappropriate. Similarly, the photo of Julian Assange and Daniel Domscheit-Berg only makes sense because of the section "WikiLeaks", which is also of borderline relevance to the article. Hans Adler 08:22, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Former MI6 Boss says leaks led to Egyptian Revolution

This should probably be added to the article along with something like a "Fallout" section. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/04/mi6_dearlove_wikileaks/ Zuchinni one (talk) 05:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Lamo as convicted felon

I added to the introduction of the article a sourced (x2) reference to Lamo's status as a convicted felon in the sentence that reveals it was Lamo who denounced Manning to the government. I'm a neutral editor in this scenario and don't seek to excuse what Manning is alleged to have done, or excoriate Lamo for denouncing him to the gov't. I believe it bears mentioning in this Manning article that Lamo, "the felon," denounced him. Plea agreements can require the defendant, as a condition of their probation, to disassociate from criminals and refrain from engaging in illegal behavior, and to immediately report any potential criminality that they become aware of. My understanding is that Lamo cited his desire not to again fall afoul of the US Gov't or have agents of the FBI burst through his front door (paraphrasing) as informing his decision to alert authorities to Manning's alleged activities. This one small detail, that it was a convicted felon who reported Manning's alleged criminal action, seems to me to be integral to understanding the facts of the situation as we know them and how chance it was that Manning's alleged activities ever came to light (had Manning confided in someone who had no prior criminal conviction for computer crimes, the government might not have been contacted). To omit it from the article may hinder the reader's ability to take the full measure of events. Nonetheless I wanted to provide others with the opportunity to reject the change by at least calling attention to it.Joep01 (talk) 23:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree notable two words people should know, often mentioned by the sources. IQinn (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

What Joep01 says may be true, but I have deleted the reference (e.g., mention of Lamo's felony conviction) that he added. Reason: how is Lamo's conviction relevant to the Manning saga? Did Manning contact Lamo because of the felony conviction? Did he even know about the conviction? Lamo's motivations are relevant to his BLP, but I find it hard to understand how the felony conviction, as a possible motivation, is relevant here. --S. Rich (talk) 00:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

So the reference, while sourced and in my belief appropriate, has been deleted. I would welcome input from some other editor(s) so as to confirm/refute that I'm off-base in believing the fact that Manning was denounced by a convicted felon is relevant. I believe that the detail is salient for understanding that Manning's alleged activities very well may not have come to the attention of the government if he had chosen to confide in someone who wasn't a convicted felon and disclosed them to him instead of Lamo. It's not something relevant in the sense of wanting to discredit Lamo or excuse Manning or argue that what Manning did is somehow ok and someone else might not have turned him in. However, my understanding is that Lamo turned-in Manning because he didn't want trouble from the government, which he very well may have had as a convicted felon (if he'd violated the conditions of his plea bargain by not informing the government of his knowledge of alleged-criminal activities).Joep01 (talk) 00:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Note the edit was restored here: --S. Rich (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Noted. Thanks.Joep01 (talk) 00:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Also noted that it was again deleted. I've restored the reference and the citations as no attempt was made to explain why it was not relevant or to justify deleting the information.Joep01 (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

We explain in the section about the chat logs that Lamo was convicted for accessing the NYT's network without permission. It would be a violation of our BLP policy to label him as a convicted "felon" in the lead. SlimVirgin 16:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Please support the claim that the verifiable, sourced and factual detail of Lamo's felonious status is a violation of BLP policy, as I disagree.Joep01 (talk) 19:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The article is not about him, and this information (properly unpacked) is already in the article, yet you want to repeat it in the lead. It gives us no additional information about him. It doesn't affect anything else in the article, and seems to function only as an attempt to poison the well against him. SlimVirgin 19:22, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference NakashimaMarch52011 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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