| Revision as of 13:23, 22 March 2011 view sourceJimbo Wales (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Founder14,539 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:27, 22 March 2011 view source Townlake (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers3,827 edits →RfA is a horrible and broken process: better example, pleaseNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::Email sent, along the same lines. I said something similar to the above back in my post ... although we've had more people promoted in February and March so the situation isn't as dire. But I still support the idea, and apparently more people are getting on board. Misplaced Pages works well as a participatory democracy, not so much as a representative democracy. (This isn't a jab at Arbcom; they do a good job, and I haven't heard any good alternatives.) RFA will be a much nicer place if we start electing admins because they're competent at geeky, grindy jobs, and not with the idea that we're going to hand off tough, wiki-changing decisions to admins so that we don't have to make the calls by consensus. No wonder many voters feel a need to put candidates through the ringer. - Dank (]) 20:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC) | :::::::Email sent, along the same lines. I said something similar to the above back in my post ... although we've had more people promoted in February and March so the situation isn't as dire. But I still support the idea, and apparently more people are getting on board. Misplaced Pages works well as a participatory democracy, not so much as a representative democracy. (This isn't a jab at Arbcom; they do a good job, and I haven't heard any good alternatives.) RFA will be a much nicer place if we start electing admins because they're competent at geeky, grindy jobs, and not with the idea that we're going to hand off tough, wiki-changing decisions to admins so that we don't have to make the calls by consensus. No wonder many voters feel a need to put candidates through the ringer. - Dank (]) 20:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::Email sent, along the lines of keeping the same basic system but making it a more welcoming experience by introducing minimum candidate requirements and nolinations, more control over !voters, questions, and discussions. ] (]) 11:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC) | ::::::::Email sent, along the lines of keeping the same basic system but making it a more welcoming experience by introducing minimum candidate requirements and nolinations, more control over !voters, questions, and discussions. ] (]) 11:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC) | ||
| By using Strat's RFA as his illustration of the "horrible and broken process," Jimbo sacrificed a little credibility. Strat was as pugnacious as it gets at RFA, picking fights in the oppose section with anyone who was game. That RFA reached the right result, for obvious temperament issues if nothing else. Perhaps Jimbo would favor us with a better example of what he considers the evils of RFA to be, because there is little disagreement that the process is imperfect, but what exactly is wrong is a subject of perennial dispute. ] (]) 13:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Conditional display of photos based on #ifallowed == | == Conditional display of photos based on #ifallowed == | ||
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Opt-in Page Rating
Hey Jimbo - I've been playing around with various internet filtering solutions, e.g. OpenDNS, and it seems like the tools to allow parents to monitor and control internet content their kids are exposed to have matured. What, if anything, would prevent WP from implementing a similar opt-in page rating system? I'm thinking of a property (or collection of properties) embedded in each page and set by the community that will alert opt-in systems such as OpenDNS to presence of adult-themed material. Curious to know your thoughts on this matter. Ronnotel (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Not to butt in, but that seems really unnecessary. Firstly, that seems to sort of conflict with the not censored stuff, and there are already tons of programs (some already built into many, if not all, newer computers) that do the same thing.-RHM22 (talk) 03:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I support such measures. I think WP:NOTCENSORED is not a good reason not to do it. My own view is that NPOV categories are the way to handle this, and then end users (or software like you are talking about) can decide what to do about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- What are "NPOV" categories? Fram (talk) 08:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- All it would do is spawn endless arguments over whether X should be censored. For example; images of Mohammed? Images of people in disasters, or body parts etc. Images of guns? That's a can of worms that doesn't seem worthwhile opening; censorship needs to be performed on a more local level and the selection of scope made by that individuals. --Errant 09:54, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Completely agree with you, Errant. The only possible way forward would be to apply a series of NPOV labels, set by the community, that merely describe the presence of content that may be potentially objectionable. The labels are not normally visible to the casual viewer (see below, viewing and manipulating the tags would require the user to turn on a preference). It is then up to the viewer's environment (broswer, content filtering solution, etc.) to determine whether a page should be shown to that user by referencing the meta tags. Most of schools can't let their students use WP now because of content objections. A solution like this could help make WP more available to those kids. Ronnotel (talk) 12:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, Jimbo. I know this has caused controversy before and there's a likely to be huge negative reaction from the WP:NOTCENSORED crowd. However, I was thinking that the way to go would be to make the page ratings completely 'opt-in' - i.e. visible only if you have specifically turned on a preference. When a page gets a rating, such as "profanity", it would simply generate meta tags that another tool, for instance a content filter application at a school, could use to filter the page based on its various meta tags. The vast majority of WP users can safely ignore the preference and their viewing experience will be unchanged since they will never see the rating and they can simply choose to use a viewing platform that does not employ content filtering. The small fraction of WP users who have an interest in making WP more available to non-adult audiences can deploy the preference and participate in the page ratings. I think this might require some small change on the dev side (new preference(s), generate meta tags, etc.). I don't have much visibility into the dev process and I would appreciate a pointer or two on how to navigate. Thoughts? Ronnotel (talk) 12:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Given that one of the most qualified legal scholars of the last century resorted to "I know it when I see it", I don't see how a single label would work (in other words, I think the idea is broken and should be rejected). But we could possibly make use of the the Misplaced Pages crowd, and have (potentially) every individual registered user assign a separate value on certain danger scales ("obscene", "violent", "religiously offensive", "makes people think"). Values could be averaged for the overall rating, possibly with a decay factor. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I would not be against it as long as it is only used when someone specifically sets it what way on their preferences. Also, I think only administrators should be allowed to assign parental info to articles. If you allow anybody to set the level, people will be marking everything as inappropriate.-RHM22 (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- @Stephen - most modern rating systems attempt to use multiple, objective criteria rather than a single subjective criteria. For instance, a TV show might be tagged with "Nudity, mild language, some violence". It's then up to the gate-keeper (i.e. the kid's parent) to decide whether the show would be appropriate. I'm thinking along the same lines. If a user opts-in by setting a preference on their account, they would then be able to view and/or edit multiple ratings properties. For instance, a tasteful nude portrait might be tagged with "nudity", while a picture demonstrating the use of a sex toy might be labeled "nudity" + "sexual content" + "explicit". Again, only those who have turned on the preference would even see these ratings. It would be up to the gate keepers (i.e. parents, school-based filtering solutions) to determine what level is appropriate for their viewers. For someone who doesn't care about these issues, the impact would be completely zero. They haven't turned on the preference - they don't see the ratings, their experience is completely unaffected. Ronnotel (talk) 14:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, it would definitely have an impact on articles, and one that is in my opinion unwanted. When such a system would be in place, people would either self-censor articles, or ask for the censoring of them, so that the content would remain visible for people filtering out "nudity" or "profanity" or "unveiled women" or whatever potentially unwanted content there may be. If e.g. an article on Peter Paul Rubens would be tagged with "nudity" as long as File:Peter Paul Rubens 019.jpg was included, then wouldn't it be better to remove that (and similar) pictures from the article, so that school children are still able to read about Rubens on Misplaced Pages? What about Phan Thị Kim Phúc? Should we remove the picture because it is "child nudity" and/or "violence"? Such a scheme will lead to endless discussions, with little to no benefit in the end. Fram (talk) 15:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Fram, it sounds like you are responding to something no one is proposing. What I think is that we have an encyclopedic responsibility to identify the facts of reality in a clear and accurate way, and that there is a very easy and obvious responsible middle ground which does *not* require removal of images to satisfy edge cases. It actually is possible to find middle ground here, if people are willing to try. The debate between "take it out, it is offensive" and "to hell with you, you'll look at what we want you to look at" is stale. It's time to move on to thinking about responsible and thoughtful accommodation and compromise. NPOV labeling and individual control is the Misplaced Pages way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's the second time you used NPOV in conjunction with labelling things as nudity, profanity, etcetera. Could you please elaboate on what is the link between "Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias." and indicating whether a page containing e.g. works of arts should be labeled "nudity", "artistic nudity", "nsfw", or whatever one would prefer? As for my comments: the proposal is to categorize articles so that people may install category-based filters to exclude some articles from view for some groups (e.g. schools may filter all pages with nudity). The to me logical next step is that people will try to have pages not labeled as conteining nudity, to make them more accessible for restricted audiences. The only obvious options to achieve this are to either remove the labeling from such pages, or to remove the offending bits from such pages. The first will lead to edit wars, the last is censoring. We have all witnessed the repeated removal of works of arts from Commons because they offended some people (or because someone feared that they would offend other people or generate bad publicity or whatever). There is no "very easy and obvious responsible middle ground", as evidenced by that fiasco. Fram (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Which one of "Nudity, mild language, some violence" is objective? Nude faces? Feet? Breast(s) (male or female)? Popeye or the A-Team vs. 24 or Spooks on violence? I know which ones give me nightmares. And seriously, if someone is offended by "language", they are welcome to stop using any. The fixation on certain "dirty words" seems to be a very culture-dependent criteria that is not applicable to the international audience of Misplaced Pages at all. Moreover, specific words are very easy to filter on the client-side. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:39, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- @Stephen - most modern rating systems attempt to use multiple, objective criteria rather than a single subjective criteria. For instance, a TV show might be tagged with "Nudity, mild language, some violence". It's then up to the gate-keeper (i.e. the kid's parent) to decide whether the show would be appropriate. I'm thinking along the same lines. If a user opts-in by setting a preference on their account, they would then be able to view and/or edit multiple ratings properties. For instance, a tasteful nude portrait might be tagged with "nudity", while a picture demonstrating the use of a sex toy might be labeled "nudity" + "sexual content" + "explicit". Again, only those who have turned on the preference would even see these ratings. It would be up to the gate keepers (i.e. parents, school-based filtering solutions) to determine what level is appropriate for their viewers. For someone who doesn't care about these issues, the impact would be completely zero. They haven't turned on the preference - they don't see the ratings, their experience is completely unaffected. Ronnotel (talk) 14:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I would not be against it as long as it is only used when someone specifically sets it what way on their preferences. Also, I think only administrators should be allowed to assign parental info to articles. If you allow anybody to set the level, people will be marking everything as inappropriate.-RHM22 (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Given that one of the most qualified legal scholars of the last century resorted to "I know it when I see it", I don't see how a single label would work (in other words, I think the idea is broken and should be rejected). But we could possibly make use of the the Misplaced Pages crowd, and have (potentially) every individual registered user assign a separate value on certain danger scales ("obscene", "violent", "religiously offensive", "makes people think"). Values could be averaged for the overall rating, possibly with a decay factor. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- All it would do is spawn endless arguments over whether X should be censored. For example; images of Mohammed? Images of people in disasters, or body parts etc. Images of guns? That's a can of worms that doesn't seem worthwhile opening; censorship needs to be performed on a more local level and the selection of scope made by that individuals. --Errant 09:54, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- What are "NPOV" categories? Fram (talk) 08:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Most of the comments above seem to have misunderstood my position, and so I will expand on it here. Problems about whether or not filtering systems work or work well enough should be left to others. My point is that NPOV tagging is entirely possible and well within our capacity, and reasonable default settings are well within our capacity. I can't tell you whether a particular image is appropriate for you or not. I can tell you what the image is of. "Image of Muhammad" - and you decide if you want to see it or not. Simple measures can be taken to allow end users control over their experience. The real danger here is that "cram it down their throats to prove WP:NOTCENSORED" as a sentiment may blind people to the possibilities of individual choice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I agree. If it is done, I think that each article with potentially objectionable content should be labeled as such by administrators. There would several invisible tags that could be added, such as "religion", "nudity", "crude language" etc. That way, in your preferences, you could click a box that says "don't show me nudity, religion etc".-RHM22 (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Err "Image of Muhammad" is highly POV. One of the standing objections to the images is that they don't actualy depict muhammad (since none of the depictions date from anywhere close to his lifetime). La trahison des images gets taken seriously.©Geni 19:13, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. "Image of Muhammad" is quite straightforward in the vast majority of cases. In the edge cases, it is quite simple to refine the label so that it is NPOV. Do you have any examples or are you simply objecting to object? Give me an example, and I'll work with you to find a neutral and informative way of describing it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- okey lets take a fairly straigforward one.File:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpg You would probably describe that as an image of Mohammed yes? However it was painted ~680 years after his death and claiming it as an image of the prophet would from the POV of certian versions of islam be a lying and/or blasphemy. Either way its pushing a POV. A more NPOV forumation would be something along the lines of "images intended to depict Muhammad" however that is not only clumsy but would also include File:Aziz efendi-muhammad alayhi s-salam.jpg which is probably not the intent. Sure you can get around this by adding ever longer tags or writing the whole thing in Lojban but by that point you've destoryed any reasonable level of usability so your approach is less effective than just leaving people to construct lists of images they want to block in adblock pluss.©Geni 19:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- That particular image is already categorised as "Muslim depictions of Muhammad" - I presume that a tag would be different to a cat, in a sense, (or may be not - the distinction is fairly arbitrary), but if I understand Jimbo correctly, a tag or a category with that wording would be sufficient to permit appropriate software to allow an individual to choose whether or not to display the image, without impacting on notcensored, and the wording "depictions of Muhammad" is sufficiently NPOV to avoid the question of whether it is an accurate portrayal. - Bilby (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Bilby is absolutely correct, and this is my point. We already do perfectly well with NPOV tagging. That's what we do quite well. Of course people can always argue and fuss about what tags to use. And, no, I don't propose that we do any completely new tagging system - such would be a needless duplicate of what we already do quite well. I let this example run to illustrate the point: those who say that NPOV tagging is impossible must, to be consistent, be opposed to our category tagging entirely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Errr you are aware that that category is on commons right? And that Commons doesn't have a NPOV policy that resembles anything on the english wikipedia?16:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Bilby is absolutely correct, and this is my point. We already do perfectly well with NPOV tagging. That's what we do quite well. Of course people can always argue and fuss about what tags to use. And, no, I don't propose that we do any completely new tagging system - such would be a needless duplicate of what we already do quite well. I let this example run to illustrate the point: those who say that NPOV tagging is impossible must, to be consistent, be opposed to our category tagging entirely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- That particular image is already categorised as "Muslim depictions of Muhammad" - I presume that a tag would be different to a cat, in a sense, (or may be not - the distinction is fairly arbitrary), but if I understand Jimbo correctly, a tag or a category with that wording would be sufficient to permit appropriate software to allow an individual to choose whether or not to display the image, without impacting on notcensored, and the wording "depictions of Muhammad" is sufficiently NPOV to avoid the question of whether it is an accurate portrayal. - Bilby (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- okey lets take a fairly straigforward one.File:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpg You would probably describe that as an image of Mohammed yes? However it was painted ~680 years after his death and claiming it as an image of the prophet would from the POV of certian versions of islam be a lying and/or blasphemy. Either way its pushing a POV. A more NPOV forumation would be something along the lines of "images intended to depict Muhammad" however that is not only clumsy but would also include File:Aziz efendi-muhammad alayhi s-salam.jpg which is probably not the intent. Sure you can get around this by adding ever longer tags or writing the whole thing in Lojban but by that point you've destoryed any reasonable level of usability so your approach is less effective than just leaving people to construct lists of images they want to block in adblock pluss.©Geni 19:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. "Image of Muhammad" is quite straightforward in the vast majority of cases. In the edge cases, it is quite simple to refine the label so that it is NPOV. Do you have any examples or are you simply objecting to object? Give me an example, and I'll work with you to find a neutral and informative way of describing it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I would argue vehemently that NPOV tagging is entirely impossible and completely outside our capacity, as a multicultural project. One person's porn is another's erotica is another's refreshingly frank fiction. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I can't see why this would be a bad idea, but I do think that what is said by editors above is cogent, Jimbo. There probably would be disputes about whether and how particular things should be tagged (how nude is nude? what sort of behaviours count as sexual?). It's a hallmark of Misplaced Pages that editors will find opportunities to disagree wherever they can. You could object, though, that all that is is an argument for never doing anything new.
- I do think that if it was introduced it would be a good idea, if poss, to make it unavailable to IPs or things would constantly be getting tagged and untagged (this would not apply to former IPs, of course).
- Mike, what you're saying is correct, but that's just a reason for not designing a system that has options such as "porn", "erotica", "refreshingly frank fiction". It's also a reason not to allow new tags to be created without consensus.--FormerIP (talk) 19:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Mike is mistaken, actually. We already do a great job of NPOV labeling of images. The point of NPOV is that we (already) tend to avoid tags that involve a value judgment. We already deal perfectly well with questions like "how nude is nude?" The point I am trying to make here is that we are already doing what many people are claiming is impossible: we categorize images in an NPOV fashion. Much of the negative reaction here seems to be either unaware of our category system, or envisioning something different that no one is actually proposing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- People would be hiding pages on Misplaced Pages based on categories on Commons? That seems problematic to me. And how NPOV is the labeling, and are we really doing a great job of it? I can imagine that every page that has a picture listed in the Commons category "Category:Female buttocks" would be hidden for some viewers. (I don't know why anyone would believe the sight of female buttocks to be a problem, but that's beside the point). Would this include every image in the subcategories as well? If so, many articles on art and artists would be hidden as well. The same for categories like "nude females" and so on. Luckily, we can replace some of these images with other Commons images which are not similarly categorised, even if they could be; File:Rubens, Peter Paul (workshop) - Die drei Grazien - 1620-24.jpg has no "restricting" NPOV categories, but File:Las tres Gracias de Rubens (Detalle).jpg has, so make sure to only use the former and not the latter. Fram (talk) 08:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Mike is mistaken, actually. We already do a great job of NPOV labeling of images. The point of NPOV is that we (already) tend to avoid tags that involve a value judgment. We already deal perfectly well with questions like "how nude is nude?" The point I am trying to make here is that we are already doing what many people are claiming is impossible: we categorize images in an NPOV fashion. Much of the negative reaction here seems to be either unaware of our category system, or envisioning something different that no one is actually proposing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
_-_Die_drei_Grazien_-_1620-24.jpg){kind=link}
.jpg){kind=link}
I would tend to agree that any useful tagging is inherently impossible; regardless of how the categories are named, they remain "things some group might want to not see because they might be offended" which requires judgement and subjective evaluation. Even something as "straightforward" as nudity isn't: is a woman wearing only a cache-sexe nude? Is a man? What if they wear nothing, but only their head and shoulders are visible? What if it's a man shown from the waist up? A woman? Or a woman seen from the waist up, but facing away from the camera? What if their entire body is visible but genitalia is obscured by the decor? What if the obstruction is added to the image itself rather than part of the photograph? What do we do in the frequent Hollowodian case that context and setup obviously indend to imply that the subject is nude, but they are not (and it's not possible to tell)?
That impossibility to classify neutrally is the easy part too: with the tags will come pressure to have articles contain no "tagged" material so that "all" may see them; quickly causing de facto ghettos and encouraging self-censorship. That's if things go well.
I'm sorry, Jimmy, but I can't think of a worse idea. — Coren 19:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Land war in Asia. Hands down. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- To Coren: That seems a little dramatic. If such a feature were available, I think very few would use it outside of schools and possibly some young children.-RHM22 (talk) 21:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Then you posses depths of optimism to which I cannot aspire. I predict that, should such a tagging feature be turned on, wheel wars over tags are inevitable. (And yes, "nothing worse" is hyperbole; what I obviously means is that "... in the context of content control ...") — Coren 00:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- To Coren: That seems a little dramatic. If such a feature were available, I think very few would use it outside of schools and possibly some young children.-RHM22 (talk) 21:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be nice if we could modularly reuse content among different presentations? This is bigger than anything Misplaced Pages is or could forseeably be, but indulge me for a second as I dream. In Misplaced Pages Mark N+1, for each different possible article, editors create content that has both a handle or tag (think of a current section or subsection) and an attribute. So if I want to see (just picking this one because I saw an OTRS ticket complaining about its images) the article Vulva, it would by default show everything we currently have. But if users want to create and upload, say, a line drawing in place of any of the pictures, it could be uploaded with the same tag and a different attribute--say "line drawing of female human vulva" vs. "photograph of human female vulva". In my ideal world, users can choose by default, "show me no photographs of human nudity" and selectively opt-out of the images. I'd love it if this would allow sections of technical articles to be rewritten for non-technical audiences, and readers could select their preferred reading level. If we could keep articles adhering to the same skeleton between different languages, we could then eliminate different "language" wikipedias, and then just store different texts as different attributes of one, all-encompassing article. Ultimately, if this were achieved consistently, all we need to do is allow account configuration to be fixed and password protected, and then we have the ability to have hobbled accounts, locked off to the child-appropriate parts of Misplaced Pages, opening the knowledge base to kids who might otherwise be restricted from Misplaced Pages access. Part of inclusionism and diversity is recognizing when others' value systems differ from our own. I'd much rather make enable a setting that says "Don't show me any images that depict Muhammad" than either thumb our nose at Muslims who care about it OR buckle and remove the images entirely. Just because we have a "don't display images" option doesn't mean it's anything more than an inelegant kludge. Jclemens (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- What if the "NPOV categories" were highly refined? That is, instead of having a "human nudity" hidden tag, what if there were different tagsfor "revealed human female face," "revealed human male face", "revealed human female abdomen", and "revealed human male genitalia"? Or would that be useless for interaction with the types of software mentioned by the OP? It sure would be a big pain to categorize pictures that way, but it presumably could be done gradually, over time. I don't support "censorship" (in the sense of government restrictions on the publication of images), but I do support people's ability to self-restrict as well as restrict what members of their own family (or, probably, even company or school) can see. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- There may be a big potential for creep, though, when you describe it like that. If it is claimed that parents want to have the facility to filter out anything to do with "Theory of Evolution", do we pander to that? --FormerIP (talk) 02:33, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I would say so. And if some people don't want to see Muhammed, or some people don't want to see nudity, or anything else. I really don't see why an opt-in filter wouldn't be a good idea. Right now, there are probably millions of children who aren't allowed to learn from all the knowledge available on Misplaced Pages because of what some people call objectionable. To me, it doesn't matter if a kid is a fundamentalist Christian or a conservative Muslim, or if his/her parent are enormous prudes. They should all be able to access Misplaced Pages with their parent's approval. As long as the tags are applied either by administrators or trusted users (not just autoconfirmed), there probably wouldn't be a huge problem. Sure, some articles would be labeled incorrectly due to POV or whatever else, but if there are children who can't even access Misplaced Pages at all the way it is now (either at school or at home), then they're not seeing anything anyway. That's just my opinion. To me, as long as everything is done properly and responsibly, it won't cause huge waves.-RHM22 (talk) 02:55, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- There may be a big potential for creep, though, when you describe it like that. If it is claimed that parents want to have the facility to filter out anything to do with "Theory of Evolution", do we pander to that? --FormerIP (talk) 02:33, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
This topic was discussed at Meta:2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content and related talk pages. I oppose rating on Misplaced Pages because: how do you enforce that people apply the "right" rating scheme? If someone has a different opinion about a particular image, how do you prove him wrong? Endless discussion? Do you have an ever-running majority vote by edit war? The only definitive way - i.e. the only effective way - would be by having admins establish a dictatorial hierarchy in which anyone at a lower level is banned if they classify an image too lightly, or allow someone else to do so. Now that actually can work in a private ratings organization with a strong, monolithic religious viewpoint. It could also work if each user has the right to create his own ratings system and to choose which other users' ratings he trusts. But such systems are not "NPOV" - they are absolutely, unashamedly POV - and they should be administered outside of the normal functioning of Misplaced Pages. For example, a company providing the internet censorship software which schools and libraries are forced to provide at public expense could recognize that specific URLs within Misplaced Pages should not be served (whether articles or images). For all I know they are doing so now. That is their business, not ours. Wnt (talk) 03:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- How about the way we handle any other content dispute? Local consensus, 3O, MEDCAB, etc... Jclemens (talk) 05:37, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Political content disputes can be very hard to resolve, but in the end there are sources to go by. WP:V covers a multitude of sins. But the definition of categories for rating articles has no reliable source, and everyone has an opinion. There simply is no objective consensus. Wnt (talk) 06:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Why are objective criteria even useful? Consider that what people don't want to see is itself subjective. Consider also that things could be multi-tagged. There's no reason that every niche cabal of whomever couldn't stick their own seal of approval or disapproval on anything, and any user could be free to use or not use any one of the myriad of rating schemes. Give people the freedom to organize content as they see fit, and other people the ability to entrust whomever they choose, and then there's no problem, is there? Jclemens (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- That is the best way to do it, but note that now you've made the ratings non-collaborative. Keeping them on Misplaced Pages means that one person can maliciously or accidentally damage someone else's rating, but it doesn't allow multiple raters to do any better than they can on their own. If any IP can edit some morass of special notations in an image file and flip them around, you'll always have odd things popping up where they're not wanted. So it's best to continue by moving the ratings entirely off the site. Wnt (talk) 06:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Why are objective criteria even useful? Consider that what people don't want to see is itself subjective. Consider also that things could be multi-tagged. There's no reason that every niche cabal of whomever couldn't stick their own seal of approval or disapproval on anything, and any user could be free to use or not use any one of the myriad of rating schemes. Give people the freedom to organize content as they see fit, and other people the ability to entrust whomever they choose, and then there's no problem, is there? Jclemens (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Political content disputes can be very hard to resolve, but in the end there are sources to go by. WP:V covers a multitude of sins. But the definition of categories for rating articles has no reliable source, and everyone has an opinion. There simply is no objective consensus. Wnt (talk) 06:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think there is a significant different between the current proposal and the ratings model - the proposal, as I understand it, isn't to add a rating scheme to images, but to use meaningful categories which describe the content in a machine-readable fashion. So you wouldn't say "18+ only" so much as "Sexual acts" or "Male nudity", as we already do. Thus there wouldn't be concerns about incorrect ratings, so much as concerns about incorrect categorisation - and those are problems that we already face. I presume that the categories may need to be expanded, in order to allow fine-grained options for the end user, but having effective NPOV categories is a plus for the project anyway. - Bilby (talk) 09:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well-put. I agree. Effective NPOV categories are useful to permit community and end-user control over their experience at Misplaced Pages, as well as having obvious encyclopedic purpose as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- So if I understand this correctly, what's being proposed is something that resembles the current categories but with the ability to emit meta tags that are machine readable. In addition, these tag-emitting categories, whatever they are called, should be somewhat more stable than existing categories since there will be an expectation by third parties developers who will treat these like an API. That sounds like an interesting approach. Ronnotel (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- And these cats (or their tags) should be passed on from Commons to en.wikipedia as well, if I understand it correctly, and they should be diverse enough to prevent lumping together innocent and less innocent pictures into one potentially blocked category, and they should be perfectly NPOV somehow, e.g. being perfectly clear what is nudity vs. what is sexual content vs. what is educational sexual content vs. what is artistic nudity etcetera. Considering that the categories, i.e. the metatags, will come from Commons, this also implies that they have to be universal, i.e. the Danish Misplaced Pages will receive the same metatags as the English and as the Malaysian, even though they may have a completely different concept of what is e.g. indecent female undressing. Should we add categories to Commons indicating whether on a picture of a woman, any hair is visible? Her ankles? Anything at all? Fram (talk) 13:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- @Fram, I take your point but this is, after all, English Misplaced Pages and the tag-emitting categories themselves will be in English. I don't know that we need to overweight Danish sensitivities. The Danes would presumably be free to develop their own categories. Ronnotel (talk) 14:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- (removed the semicolon so you're post isn't bolded, hope you don't mind!-RHM22 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC))But the categorization would not happen on the English Misplaced Pages, but (at least for most of the pictures) on Commons. I don't know if Commons will be very happy to add categories dependent on the different wikipedia-languages, or if they will be happy adding matadata categories for the English language Misplaced Pages only. (I know that I am mixing language and culture in my comments, but we don't have culture-oriented Misplaced Pages versions, only language-oriented ones, but in many cases, they are linked together to some extent). Fram (talk) 14:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand why anyone thinks there would be POV involved in labeling. There's either nudity or there isn't. I don't think anyone is suggesting that articles be "rated" like movies are. That is POV by its nature. Simply labeling images or articles as to what is in them is not, however.-RHM22 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Is File:Breast feeding within minutes.jpg "nudity"? Or File:Female human buttocks.jpg? File:Bone Crusher exposing his buttocks.jpg? File:Aloys Röhr - Arsch gezeigt.jpg? Fram (talk) 15:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Individual labeling of media files at Commons or in English Misplaced Pages is neither necessary, nor, to my mind, even optimal. Please stop throwing up straw men. I would argue that labeling at the article level is far better in this case. And yes, I grant you there will always be edge cases - so what? There are plenty of edge cases now and WP seems pretty good at resolving them. Ronnotel (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- But then your solution is quite different from the one proposed here by other people, who clearly indicate that it should be done on file level (see e.g. the discussion about images depicting Mohammed). My objections are not straw men, they just address the proposal discussed so far, not the one you give (which has other problems). Fram (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the articles have much of the same ambiguity - consider breast feeding for example. Some people will see smut and some will see Madonnas. Most of the alleged Muhammad images will have their own articles, etc. To be clear, does the proposal for categorization of articles in this way include blocking/banning editors who add images to articles without adjusting the categories at the end of the article? Wnt (talk) 16:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- That seems a little absurd. If an image is going to change the "rating" of an article, it probably shouldn't be added anyway. If I'm reading about Canada, I don't need to see a woman's ass. Also, as far as breast feeding goes, yes, that is nudity. If a human female breast is exposed, that is nudity. The point of "ratings" is not to say that breast feeding or showing breasts is immoral, it's just to let people know what's in the article and allow them to decide whether or not they want to see it.-RHM22 (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I would disagree. Modern celebrity fashion is that as long as the nipple isn't visible, it isn't nudity. You can't see the nipple when it is in the baby's mouth; therefore, most breast-feeding images are not nudity. So long as we keep out of the rating racket, this disagreement doesn't need to lead to blocked editors and general strikes. Wnt (talk) 00:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- "If an image is going to change the "rating" of an article, it probably shouldn't be added anyway." What about works of art in articles on artists? Paintings, photographs, ... These can clearly influence the rating an article would get. Look at Eadward Muybridge and compare it with http://de.wikipedia.org/Eadweard_Muybridge. One contains photographs of nudity, the other one doesn't. Claiming that because the addition of the nude photographs, the article would get a different rating, and therefor the photographs shouldn't be added, is a perfect example of how this scheme would lead to unwanted censoring of our content. Fram (talk) 20:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- That seems a little absurd. If an image is going to change the "rating" of an article, it probably shouldn't be added anyway. If I'm reading about Canada, I don't need to see a woman's ass. Also, as far as breast feeding goes, yes, that is nudity. If a human female breast is exposed, that is nudity. The point of "ratings" is not to say that breast feeding or showing breasts is immoral, it's just to let people know what's in the article and allow them to decide whether or not they want to see it.-RHM22 (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the articles have much of the same ambiguity - consider breast feeding for example. Some people will see smut and some will see Madonnas. Most of the alleged Muhammad images will have their own articles, etc. To be clear, does the proposal for categorization of articles in this way include blocking/banning editors who add images to articles without adjusting the categories at the end of the article? Wnt (talk) 16:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- But then your solution is quite different from the one proposed here by other people, who clearly indicate that it should be done on file level (see e.g. the discussion about images depicting Mohammed). My objections are not straw men, they just address the proposal discussed so far, not the one you give (which has other problems). Fram (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Individual labeling of media files at Commons or in English Misplaced Pages is neither necessary, nor, to my mind, even optimal. Please stop throwing up straw men. I would argue that labeling at the article level is far better in this case. And yes, I grant you there will always be edge cases - so what? There are plenty of edge cases now and WP seems pretty good at resolving them. Ronnotel (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Is File:Breast feeding within minutes.jpg "nudity"? Or File:Female human buttocks.jpg? File:Bone Crusher exposing his buttocks.jpg? File:Aloys Röhr - Arsch gezeigt.jpg? Fram (talk) 15:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand why anyone thinks there would be POV involved in labeling. There's either nudity or there isn't. I don't think anyone is suggesting that articles be "rated" like movies are. That is POV by its nature. Simply labeling images or articles as to what is in them is not, however.-RHM22 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- (removed the semicolon so you're post isn't bolded, hope you don't mind!-RHM22 (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC))But the categorization would not happen on the English Misplaced Pages, but (at least for most of the pictures) on Commons. I don't know if Commons will be very happy to add categories dependent on the different wikipedia-languages, or if they will be happy adding matadata categories for the English language Misplaced Pages only. (I know that I am mixing language and culture in my comments, but we don't have culture-oriented Misplaced Pages versions, only language-oriented ones, but in many cases, they are linked together to some extent). Fram (talk) 14:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- @Fram, I take your point but this is, after all, English Misplaced Pages and the tag-emitting categories themselves will be in English. I don't know that we need to overweight Danish sensitivities. The Danes would presumably be free to develop their own categories. Ronnotel (talk) 14:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- And these cats (or their tags) should be passed on from Commons to en.wikipedia as well, if I understand it correctly, and they should be diverse enough to prevent lumping together innocent and less innocent pictures into one potentially blocked category, and they should be perfectly NPOV somehow, e.g. being perfectly clear what is nudity vs. what is sexual content vs. what is educational sexual content vs. what is artistic nudity etcetera. Considering that the categories, i.e. the metatags, will come from Commons, this also implies that they have to be universal, i.e. the Danish Misplaced Pages will receive the same metatags as the English and as the Malaysian, even though they may have a completely different concept of what is e.g. indecent female undressing. Should we add categories to Commons indicating whether on a picture of a woman, any hair is visible? Her ankles? Anything at all? Fram (talk) 13:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- So if I understand this correctly, what's being proposed is something that resembles the current categories but with the ability to emit meta tags that are machine readable. In addition, these tag-emitting categories, whatever they are called, should be somewhat more stable than existing categories since there will be an expectation by third parties developers who will treat these like an API. That sounds like an interesting approach. Ronnotel (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well-put. I agree. Effective NPOV categories are useful to permit community and end-user control over their experience at Misplaced Pages, as well as having obvious encyclopedic purpose as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
No offense, but you're really putting words in my mouth. Clearly what I meant is that most articles would not benefit from images depicting nudity or other controversial matters. Some articles obviously would, but most would not. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress, so if an article would benefit from a nude image, it'll be added and the tag would eventually reflect that. Like I said earlier, IPs and new users can simply not be allowed to tag articles that contain nudity, because you'll have all kinds of censorship going on.-RHM22 (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- The issue of cultural bias problems still arises though. Nudity is an obvious category certainly. Would you be as open to categorising an article as containing an image of "women showing XYZ portions of skin", because in certain countries that is viewed as offensive. I argue that finding a limit to what is being categorised is the inherent problem --Errant 20:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Not really putting any words in your mouth, just showing how untenable or unwanted your stated position was. I'm glad that you adjusted or clarified it once this was pointed out with a clear example. As for the rest, it often is not about "allow them to decide whether or not they want to see it.", but about whether they allow others to see it or not. Why should we make this easier? Why should we e.g. help the Chinese Government filter out all pages including descriptions of or images of what happened at Tien-an-Men Square? Why should we help schools in hiding the article on breast feeding or the article Pioneer plaque because it contains "nudity" (as far as one can call that nudity)? This will only lead to more edit wars, more discussions, for very little benefit (even assuming that a good system can be found, since there seems to be no agreement whether this should be image-based, on Commons, or article-based, here, and how it should be done). Fram (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- ErrantX: If a signifigant amount of readers of the English language Misplaced Pages find that objectionable, then yes. I would say the same thing about anything. Muhammed, nudity, vulgar content etc. I'd imagine that partially clothed women (IE, bikinis) would probably offend only a small subsection of English language readers, though. Something like that would be a lot bigger concern for Arabic, Farsi, Persian and the most common languages of other Islamic nations. In most Christian nations, violence and nudity would probably be the biggest offenders.
- Fram: I don't believe that Misplaced Pages is in the business of helping the Chinese government censor the encyclopedia, but if a large percentage of Chinese viewers are indeed offended by images or descriptions of the Tienanmen square incident, then I would allow them to block out such content on their accounts or computers. Still, it seems very strenuous to connect self imposed censorship of articles on a case by case basis with forced governmental censorship as is happening within the current Chinese dictatorship. Allowing users to choose what they want to see is a lot different from forcing it on them.-RHM22 (talk) 21:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Also, there are several different kinds of nudity. First and foremost are the two major categories into which all such images fall, spurious and educational. Some of our more pornography-centered articles depict spurious nudity whose original goal was undoubtedly to titillate. The Pioneer image you linked to is entirely different, and was presumably meant to be educational when the aliens found it.-RHM22 (talk) 21:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- "Allowing users to choose what they want to see is a lot different from forcing it on them." True, but both options get easier with metadate or specific warning categories. You don't only help users to choose what they want to see, but also to to choose what others may see, no matter if it is parents for their children, schools for their students, or governments for their people. I don't believe that the supposed benefits outweigh the disadvantages and possible problems. (Speaking of problems, what if some parents or schools rely on our metadata, and then find that their children have seen some nudity or whatever they find objectionable, because we forgot to tag one page or image correctly? At least now, people don't get the impression that we take any responsability for what people may see, even though we aim to only include relevant pictures for all articles). Fram (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, nothing on Misplaced Pages is perfect, and that would also extend to the tags. I really don't see how such a tool could be used for governmental censorship, since the proposed idea would be an opt-in for individual users. Maybe if everyone in a certain country used the same WP account. Even if a government could use it to censor Misplaced Pages, it's nothing they don't already have access to as it is. I'd imagine that most governments that are interested in censoring Misplaced Pages probably already do it.-RHM22 (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- RHM22, r.e. the limitations; that is OK so long as it is clear that the intent is to cater specifically for the majority of English language readers. However if such a feature did appear you are going to see persistent requests for that form of tagging, so it must be ironed out clearly before hand where the limit lies. FWIW I disagree that we need to focus on the majority of English language users, this form of self-censorship is quite clearly a minority issue and if this really is to move forward we need to identify the strong minorities on WP who would like to see content tagged for their benefit in this way. That will probably mean Mohammed images. There is also the issue that en.wiki has the largest amount of content by far - and, so, we are a global Wiki, which means we have to at least consider it from a global perspective. --Errant 23:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- To lay out a scenario for censorship, let's consider what happens if people set up the proposed categories and somehow manage to suppress edit wars enough to make them stable, however many editors that costs. Someone then works out a way to confine child readers to some subset of the categories that is considered "child safe" - no nudity, no death, no expressions of racial hatred, etc. etc. Well what happens next? Obviously, some vandal sees a big juicy target and makes however many edits it takes to get autoconfirmed. He goes into the "child safe" article, on some innocuous kid show, and puts in a big hairy something or other. Now the proponents of "child safe", who by this time have quite a caucus set up, don't just want him banned - they say, he targeted children for pornography and go after him with some state law of very dubious constitutionality, of which there are altogether too many. Now I assume that such a NONOCENSORED wikipedia would cheerfully hand over the vandal's full information without a second thought, but what if that isn't enough? What if the prosecutor says, hey wait a minute, these "child safe" people have a list of complaints on this forum a mile long, so he decides to subpoena Misplaced Pages for all records for the past 120 days so he can figure out how many editors added an image to an article without changing its rating "appropriately". Now, note, it is no longer up to the editors, but the prosecutors, post facto, to decide whether breast feeding is nudity and so forth. They can make up their lists, make a purge of editors, and demand that Misplaced Pages enter into a consent decree for permanent censorship of large categories of information, probably they'll throw in articles about explosives or infoboxes which show the location of nuclear power plants by the time they finish.
- And after that? It's time to petition Hudong to start an English site so we can have some freedom of speech. Wnt (talk) 01:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- No offense, but that is absolutely ridiculous. While there are pros and cons for allowing self censorship, there's just about zero chance of anyone going after Misplaced Pages because they "exposed children to pornography". I'm sure Jimbo will tell you that Misplaced Pages gets sued probably dozens of times per year, like all high profile websites, individuals and organizations. If someone wanted to sue because their children were exposed to pornography via an article on Barney the Dinosaur, they would do it anyway. I'm certain that if such a program of self censorship were allowed, it would not say "you are absolutely guaranteed to see no pornography at all when you use this tool." While I don't doubt that some nut might try to sue, it would be totally baseless.-RHM22 (talk) 02:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- But if e.g. schools can not trust the system, why would they use it? If they don't allow the use of Misplaced Pages now for fear of exposing their students to titillation or violence or a more correct explanation of the evolutionary theory, then why would they change that if we have a metadata system that would give them some indication but no reassurance? And if schools and so on wouldn't use the system, then why would we implement it? Fram (talk) 09:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Like I said earlier, nothing is perfect. There's no guarantee that every single potentially offending item will be blocked from view, but I think that schools would feel a lot more comfortable with that than regular Misplaced Pages. Also, I don't think violence or evolution would be an issue for American or European schools, because most (besides Catholic) teach about those things anyway. In the U.S., nudity or sexual content is the ultimate taboo when it comes to children.-RHM22 (talk) 15:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- But if e.g. schools can not trust the system, why would they use it? If they don't allow the use of Misplaced Pages now for fear of exposing their students to titillation or violence or a more correct explanation of the evolutionary theory, then why would they change that if we have a metadata system that would give them some indication but no reassurance? And if schools and so on wouldn't use the system, then why would we implement it? Fram (talk) 09:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- No offense, but that is absolutely ridiculous. While there are pros and cons for allowing self censorship, there's just about zero chance of anyone going after Misplaced Pages because they "exposed children to pornography". I'm sure Jimbo will tell you that Misplaced Pages gets sued probably dozens of times per year, like all high profile websites, individuals and organizations. If someone wanted to sue because their children were exposed to pornography via an article on Barney the Dinosaur, they would do it anyway. I'm certain that if such a program of self censorship were allowed, it would not say "you are absolutely guaranteed to see no pornography at all when you use this tool." While I don't doubt that some nut might try to sue, it would be totally baseless.-RHM22 (talk) 02:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- RHM22, r.e. the limitations; that is OK so long as it is clear that the intent is to cater specifically for the majority of English language readers. However if such a feature did appear you are going to see persistent requests for that form of tagging, so it must be ironed out clearly before hand where the limit lies. FWIW I disagree that we need to focus on the majority of English language users, this form of self-censorship is quite clearly a minority issue and if this really is to move forward we need to identify the strong minorities on WP who would like to see content tagged for their benefit in this way. That will probably mean Mohammed images. There is also the issue that en.wiki has the largest amount of content by far - and, so, we are a global Wiki, which means we have to at least consider it from a global perspective. --Errant 23:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, nothing on Misplaced Pages is perfect, and that would also extend to the tags. I really don't see how such a tool could be used for governmental censorship, since the proposed idea would be an opt-in for individual users. Maybe if everyone in a certain country used the same WP account. Even if a government could use it to censor Misplaced Pages, it's nothing they don't already have access to as it is. I'd imagine that most governments that are interested in censoring Misplaced Pages probably already do it.-RHM22 (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- "Allowing users to choose what they want to see is a lot different from forcing it on them." True, but both options get easier with metadate or specific warning categories. You don't only help users to choose what they want to see, but also to to choose what others may see, no matter if it is parents for their children, schools for their students, or governments for their people. I don't believe that the supposed benefits outweigh the disadvantages and possible problems. (Speaking of problems, what if some parents or schools rely on our metadata, and then find that their children have seen some nudity or whatever they find objectionable, because we forgot to tag one page or image correctly? At least now, people don't get the impression that we take any responsability for what people may see, even though we aim to only include relevant pictures for all articles). Fram (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
(deindent) RHM22, above you state "I really don't see how such a tool could be used for governmental censorship, since the proposed idea would be an opt-in for individual users." But here, you agree that it can be used by schools. If the users (students) log in to Misplaced Pages, either they use the school IP (and I don't think this would work for IPs as presented, it would be coupled with user preferences I suppose), or with an individual user, not a school user (role account). Schools can hardly prevent users from logging in with their own account or logging in as an IP. In this case, the school would have no influence at all on the opt-in or opt-out of the user (student), and it would achieve nothing. Can you please explain how this would work for a school in your view? Fram (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I don't know much about technical stuff, but I'd imagine that the school could have a single account for student use. I'm not sure how that works, but I believe they do that already for certain websites.-RHM22 (talk) 15:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- They can of course hand out one "accepted" login, e.g. for informational websites which only hand out a limited amount of accounts, but I don't think that if a school allows a website, they can actually monitor (or at least restrict) what anyone chooses to type in the login and password fields (they would need to be able to make the difference between a student typing in the search box, and a student typing in the login box, to do that). It may be technically possible, but it would amaze me if it was much used in school environments. Fram (talk) 15:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, that's called a role account, and is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. Schools really can't have a single login for Misplaced Pages. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- I asked a few weeks ago on the Foundation list what the status was with respect to implementing the recommendations of the 2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content. Opt-in or opt-out is something that is being looked at. The reply I received from Phoebe is here. --JN466 20:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- At mw:Personal image filter, results of the work of the tech staff mentioned in that posting can be seen (presumably to be presented to the Board at its March 25/26 meeting). In the design sketched there, "Individual wikis will be required to maintain a 'Category Equivalence Mapping'", a system which appears to be similar to the kind of categories discussed above. Regards, HaeB (talk) 21:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, HaeB. --JN466 21:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- At mw:Personal image filter, results of the work of the tech staff mentioned in that posting can be seen (presumably to be presented to the Board at its March 25/26 meeting). In the design sketched there, "Individual wikis will be required to maintain a 'Category Equivalence Mapping'", a system which appears to be similar to the kind of categories discussed above. Regards, HaeB (talk) 21:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has existing major POV problems with its text content and its unprofessional of categories (offers to use fix our amateur categorization have been rejected). And text POV problems? http://suegardner.org/2011/02/19/nine-reasons-why-women-dont-edit-wikipedia-in-their-own-words/ says: "One hostile-to-women thing about Misplaced Pages I have noticed is that if a movie has a rape scene in it, the wiki article will often say it was a sex scene." Giving our broken cat system more importance before we fix it would be a mistake. - WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- That is a beautifully detailed essay. I'm all too aware that deletionists love to cite WP:NOTDIR as an unrestricted license to remove "detail" that doesn't interest them, and that this carries a very heavy Western bias, but I never even thought about the way that they would use this to quash topics of greater interest to women, let alone that they would target female authors for eradication. Wnt (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Are people really targeting female authors, subjects, ...? Or are some females reacting "they are removing my edits, deleting my articles, it must be because I am a woman"? It is a natural reaction to blame some action you don't like on ulterior motives, instead of accepting the given reason at face-value. And obviously there may be instances where the ulterior motives are the true reason, but some unsupported anecdotes like in that essay are not really convincing one way or another, and hardly areason to base an anti-deletionists post on. People trying to divide the Misplaced Pages-editing community in evil deletionists and good, hardworking inclusionists may weel do more to alienate people and make editors tired of all the in-fighting, than the actual supposed deletionists and inclusionists (who are often the same people in reverse roles, depending on the discussion). Fram (talk) 09:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
RfA is a horrible and broken process
Thanks, Jimbo, for coming out and saying it so clearly. Perhaps those of us who populate WT:RfA can now move faster forward with getting some changes made. --Kudpung (talk) 09:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- We don't really need Jimbo to tell us that. About the only thing you can possibly get consensus on at WP:RFA is that it's a horrible and broken process. After that, the cats run wild. Anyone who has tried can attest to the utter impossibility. I for one won't be making another attempt. —UncleDouggie (talk) 09:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I am seeking feedback via email for some ideas of an alternative process to run concurrently with the existing process with an eye toward easier confirmation for highly experienced editors with no history of troubles who don't want to run this silly gauntlet. While we have no evidence that the current process actually works, we can design and implement a new process for a few months and see how it goes. The goal should be to have a lot of happy and kind and thoughtful admins. To the extent that the current process is emotionally draining and not obviously achieving that goal, we should consider adding a new process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent. —UncleDouggie (talk) 23:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's interesting, I just sent an email too lol. Dusti 20:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent. —UncleDouggie (talk) 23:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I am seeking feedback via email for some ideas of an alternative process to run concurrently with the existing process with an eye toward easier confirmation for highly experienced editors with no history of troubles who don't want to run this silly gauntlet. While we have no evidence that the current process actually works, we can design and implement a new process for a few months and see how it goes. The goal should be to have a lot of happy and kind and thoughtful admins. To the extent that the current process is emotionally draining and not obviously achieving that goal, we should consider adding a new process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I suggest making liberal use of admin-use-only accounts available to well established uncontroversial editors with knowledge of the connection known only to those with privileges that would let them find out anyway. (not for me; I wouldn't want that thankless job if you paid me) WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Are you talking about a role account? If so, it is not feasable, both for licensing concerns and especially security risks. Also, I would suggest that the kind of admins we need more of - the ones willing to get involved in the dirty disputes - won't remain uncontroversial for long, simply due to the battleground mentality that exists in such places. Resolute 16:28, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pleasantly surprised actually what Jimmy said about this. I've long thought it it a rather spiteful process and it seems the more you've actually contributed to wikipedia and said to more the grilling and the more the number of opposes. Most of the people who get given the tools through RFA are those which have kept a low profile so do not have a dramatic history for other editors to pick up on and point out every error they ever made. Reform is certainly needed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'll certainly agree with that, Blofeld - from my own recent experience. If you have been around long enough to have a couple of dusty skellies in the cupboard, all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to shout you down. Kudpung (talk) 13:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent, the gist being that if a person has X level of service the presumption should be that she can be an admin if she wants to be. X being some reasonably high number of edits and time in harness. Vetting required, but this can be done without drama I think. Herostratus (talk) 17:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent. Short version if we're goung to loosen up the process we need to be able to separate the routine tool use from areas like the minefields of arbcom enforcement and discressionary sanctions as well as some means of reining in those we later learn lack competance, but do not rise to arbcom level misconduct.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent, along the same lines. I said something similar to the above back in my "A little more radical" post ... although we've had more people promoted in February and March so the situation isn't as dire. But I still support the idea, and apparently more people are getting on board. Misplaced Pages works well as a participatory democracy, not so much as a representative democracy. (This isn't a jab at Arbcom; they do a good job, and I haven't heard any good alternatives.) RFA will be a much nicer place if we start electing admins because they're competent at geeky, grindy jobs, and not with the idea that we're going to hand off tough, wiki-changing decisions to admins so that we don't have to make the calls by consensus. No wonder many voters feel a need to put candidates through the ringer. - Dank (push to talk) 20:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Email sent, along the lines of keeping the same basic system but making it a more welcoming experience by introducing minimum candidate requirements and nolinations, more control over !voters, questions, and discussions. Kudpung (talk) 11:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'll certainly agree with that, Blofeld - from my own recent experience. If you have been around long enough to have a couple of dusty skellies in the cupboard, all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to shout you down. Kudpung (talk) 13:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pleasantly surprised actually what Jimmy said about this. I've long thought it it a rather spiteful process and it seems the more you've actually contributed to wikipedia and said to more the grilling and the more the number of opposes. Most of the people who get given the tools through RFA are those which have kept a low profile so do not have a dramatic history for other editors to pick up on and point out every error they ever made. Reform is certainly needed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Are you talking about a role account? If so, it is not feasable, both for licensing concerns and especially security risks. Also, I would suggest that the kind of admins we need more of - the ones willing to get involved in the dirty disputes - won't remain uncontroversial for long, simply due to the battleground mentality that exists in such places. Resolute 16:28, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I suggest making liberal use of admin-use-only accounts available to well established uncontroversial editors with knowledge of the connection known only to those with privileges that would let them find out anyway. (not for me; I wouldn't want that thankless job if you paid me) WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
By using Strat's RFA as his illustration of the "horrible and broken process," Jimbo sacrificed a little credibility. Strat was as pugnacious as it gets at RFA, picking fights in the oppose section with anyone who was game. That RFA reached the right result, for obvious temperament issues if nothing else. Perhaps Jimbo would favor us with a better example of what he considers the evils of RFA to be, because there is little disagreement that the process is imperfect, but what exactly is wrong is a subject of perennial dispute. Townlake (talk) 13:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Conditional display of photos based on #ifallowed
Currently, the WP:parser function "#ifexist" can be used to choose to link or display a photo, only if it already exists. If a simple system to check categories could control a "#ifallowed" parser function, then each article could be conditionally reformatted to display the photo-blurred (or modest) version of an image, or substitute whole paragraphs of sensitive text (such as explicit text about sexual abuse). For example, with a nude painting by Peter Paul Reubens:
- {{#ifallowed: File:Reubens_nude_woman.jpg
|<!--then show nude-->]
|<!--else blurred-->]}}
- {{#ifallowed: File:Reubens_nude_woman.jpg
The full nude image would display, in the article, only if allowed by the user preference group, where the blurred image would be displayed instead, as a modest image (in the same place on the article's page). Similarly, restricted text could be stored in some text templates (for example a set of perhaps 9 paragraphs chosen by parameter number), where paragraphs from the template could only be shown, or edited, based on the same idea of checking for {#ifallowed:...}. Using that tactic, a single article could be automatically reformatted to substitute images, or choose various altered-paragraph templates to describe violent or sexual events in the text. I mention this idea, at this level of detail, just to explain how a single, conditional article could be auto-reformatted to conform to each reader's allowed contents. There would be no need to omit every artist who ever painted a nude, nor to pre-censor and remove all nudes or erotic images from an article's contents, but rather children and adults could view the same core article, as auto-formatted, but not access the restricted photos or altered-paragraph templates (which contained the restricted text or sounds). With the use of verified revisions, the markup for #ifallowed could be controlled. Plus, by only putting the restricted text into separate templates, then children could edit the same core article as adults, just not view the restricted parts in files as linked. Hence, most infoboxes and navboxes could link the same articles, but the contents of each article would change for each user group, depending on the allowed content for their preferences group. The only potential problem would be in wiki-search of contents, where a filter would need to bleep some words found in adult-rated articles. The basic concept is that the core contents of most articles would be the same for all users, rather than have hundreds of "POV-forks" for each restricted user group. So, POV-forks would still be limited to rare cases, such as "Potential innocence of Linda Carty" (as very detailed defense arguments of British woman on death row). Does that approach seem workable, or would you prefer not to dwell on such details? -Wikid77 03:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- It is certainly in the neighborhood of what I have in mind when I think about how to allow individual users and the community to control the experience of Misplaced Pages. I think the biggest obstacle may be social, in that some people don't agree with NPOV, or think that NPOV means "People should see things in my way, or else go away."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I can perhaps see the logic of what Wikid77 is proposing in relation to images, but s/he seems to be suggesting that this could be applied to sections of text too. Isn't that going to lead to an editing nightmare? Expecting a text to be grammatical, logical, and stylistically acceptable with or without sections that are presumably seen as significant by contributors is probably asking the impossible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Editors interested in creating a special "child safe" version should edit a mirror site with appropriate policies. Such a site may have different procedures (such as not allowing children to converse on unwatched pages with anonymous strangers, and suppressing children from viewing history versions). But should they somehow manage to conquer this site, it will fall on the current editors to find a new site to work with. Wnt (talk) 08:36, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I can perhaps see the logic of what Wikid77 is proposing in relation to images, but s/he seems to be suggesting that this could be applied to sections of text too. Isn't that going to lead to an editing nightmare? Expecting a text to be grammatical, logical, and stylistically acceptable with or without sections that are presumably seen as significant by contributors is probably asking the impossible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- mw:Personal image filter --MZMcBride (talk) 08:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I was just explaining how an article could display alternate images, and alternate paragraphs, depending on content restrictions, but the example group of "children" was not intended to exclude groups of Sunni or Shiite Muslims, where graven images are not allowed to be displayed in mosques. Turn off images and "read" an article at a mosque. It is a concept were talk-pages (and articles) could still be "phrase-filtered" but let children access enwiki's 1.5 million sports articles, while articles about artist Salvador Dali would substitute (or omit) his close-up graphic nudes, while substituting other paragraphs (or sound files) if describing the genitalia in those drawings. The idea is to avoid many POV-forks of numerous articles, or avoid POV-mirror websites for every religion or restriction. Let children see how enWP will have 9 million articles, but where only a tiny fraction have partial contents substituted or omitted. Some teachers are paid to use Wikimedia projects, and have their classes work on articles, so they can learn about typesetting and text storage in a very large system. -Wikid77 12:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Alternative paragraphs is effectively impossible - for that to work, you would need to find editors willing to mark up the content of individual paragraphs - a whole lot of issues arise then, such as contextual impact. Alternatively you could go with automatic filtering of phrases, which I think is your suggestion, but that is also a problem - they rarely work well, as key words can be fine in one context and bad in another, and does feel like WF would be taking a more active role. The proposal to rely on categories is stronger, as it looks at articles or images as a whole, and we are much better at that - setting cats is something we already do, and it is a community decision as to what categories apply to a given article which is made independent to how those categories may be employed.
- Your conditional is fine, but the trick is in how "is allowed" is calculated: my thought was something along the lines of combining article and image categories to provide context in order to make an automated decision, but there may well be better approaches. - Bilby (talk) 13:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
...and the default for anons/IPs would be what? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yup, that is the concern. How much censorship are you envisioning, Jimmy? Resolute 16:29, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Editorial judgment by the community is not censorship. Individual choice is not censorship.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- That did not answer the question. Determining how an article, including its images, look is an editorial decision. Hiding or changing aspects of that content to suit the sensibilities of certain groups is censorship. Which track do we follow as our default option for readers who are not logged in is the question. Resolute 16:45, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- It did answer the question. The community can and does and should exercise thoughtful editorial judgment taking into account a wide range of factors and reader needs in order to determine the default look of articles. That is not censorship, even in cases where cultural sensitivities and age appropriateness and so on are part of the process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:53, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- That did not answer the question. Determining how an article, including its images, look is an editorial decision. Hiding or changing aspects of that content to suit the sensibilities of certain groups is censorship. Which track do we follow as our default option for readers who are not logged in is the question. Resolute 16:45, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- I should add that there is a much smaller compromise which I think is tolerable, which I wrote up some time ago here. You could let those interested in "filtering" content occasionally add bowdlerized versions of articles as History revisions, then access them conveniently as frames within a mirror site. By serving only the latest bowdlerized or otherwise approved History versions within a frame, the site could impose its standards reliably without hosting a full mirror. (This approach could also be used to make Misplaced Pages a factually reliable "textbook" for classes) Wnt (talk) 20:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Wnt, that's an interesting idea but the implementation sounds complicated and mirrors are generally failures. Wouldn't your idea mesh with Flagged Revisions--not the review component--but the display aspect. So instead of displaying either 'latest version' or 'latest accepted version' you could also have preferences set to display 'latest kid-friendly' version (or latest academic-expert approved version, or whatever). Ocaasi (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, you'd have to have kids access Misplaced Pages, then log in to restrict their own access. Even when/if they log in, they still have access to the history, the talk page, the external links, Wikimedia Commons... I don't think any restriction would be seen as meaningful. And you'd have to modify PC to recognize different certifying authorities, and apply it to a vast number of articles. Even if you do all that, you'd still have kids free to chat with anonymous internet strangers, which is about a billion times more dangerous than any porno image known to man. Wnt (talk) 22:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- In my case, I would turn on such a feature that allowed me to have NSFW images hidden by default (I often work in airports and other public places, and the nature of my work includes investigating all manner of conflicts and complaints). I'd leave it turned on if a child or my mother were using my computer. Parents can turn such features on (if they are easy to find) and leave them on. If well-designed, they will be useful and minimally intrusive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- OK, Jimbo, you answered my question above after someone shouted the buzz-word "censorship". Just to clarify: you envision that the default would leave wikipedia as it appears right now, and the "enduser" will have to switch something "on" for any filter to kick in? (That would be reasonable. I would only be skeptical about a situation where one gets a box that says "in order to see this image, please create an account and switch off the filter.") Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- In my case, I would turn on such a feature that allowed me to have NSFW images hidden by default (I often work in airports and other public places, and the nature of my work includes investigating all manner of conflicts and complaints). I'd leave it turned on if a child or my mother were using my computer. Parents can turn such features on (if they are easy to find) and leave them on. If well-designed, they will be useful and minimally intrusive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, you'd have to have kids access Misplaced Pages, then log in to restrict their own access. Even when/if they log in, they still have access to the history, the talk page, the external links, Wikimedia Commons... I don't think any restriction would be seen as meaningful. And you'd have to modify PC to recognize different certifying authorities, and apply it to a vast number of articles. Even if you do all that, you'd still have kids free to chat with anonymous internet strangers, which is about a billion times more dangerous than any porno image known to man. Wnt (talk) 22:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I like Wnt's idea. This would create a School-friendly Misplaced Pages. Obviously it can be a WMF project. The markup syntax looks simpler on the first glance but it involves too many very complicated problems: vandalism, non-logged viewing, history viewing. Also every complication of the syntax enlarge the barriers for the novice users (that are already too high). It should be relatively easy to make a viewer that would show the latest of the approved versions (and either show the latest or show nothing if no approved versions exists). It would not show history, talk pages or give an access to editing. It can be done on either server side (as e.g. address en.school.wikipedia.org) or on the client side. Trusted users (e.g. roll-back users) should be able to mark the school-safe revisions. In similar manner we could mark muslim-friendly revisions, etc. Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think we've clarified that we should distinguish a "child safe version" from a "courtesy filter". The two have absolutely different purposes and would require much different implementation. I think that a setting to protect people from overly nosy passersby would not need to be anything elaborate - just display every thumbnail image with a default setting of, oh, maybe 40 x 40 pixels, and be done with it. No rating, no arguments. Wnt (talk) 05:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Wnt, that's an interesting idea but the implementation sounds complicated and mirrors are generally failures. Wouldn't your idea mesh with Flagged Revisions--not the review component--but the display aspect. So instead of displaying either 'latest version' or 'latest accepted version' you could also have preferences set to display 'latest kid-friendly' version (or latest academic-expert approved version, or whatever). Ocaasi (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Editorial judgment by the community is not censorship. Individual choice is not censorship.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- Censorship is done by the readers, not Misplaced Pages: (another clarification) Any text filters, image-suppression options, or conditional displays would be selected by the user groups as "censorship" for themselves. Meanwhile, Misplaced Pages, as a whole, would still retain the typical, open freedom of speech (except "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater") as allowed before. In that sense there is no "censorship of Misplaced Pages" (by current Misplaced Pages polices), although some editors, individually, might continue to try, such as deleting text saying a murder suspect had never been arrested before, as a way to make readers suspect a history of possible criminal behavior. Such deletionist "sins of omission" are the real censorship to beware: by removing all details to the contrary, any suspect of a crime can be slanted to seem "more likely guilty" if all the sourced details which refute claims of guilt are deleted from articles. That is the reason Misplaced Pages needs a stronger policy for WP:NOTCENSORED, because removing half of the NPOV story (as a WP:DESYNTH), can often mislead readers to have false impressions, in the reverse manner of WP:SYNTH, where 2 or more sources are combined to imply a novel, unsourced conclusion. A WP:DESYNTH would be a case where known details are deleted to mislead readers into having other unsourced conclusions. -Wikid77 13:49, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- ...Which has nothing to do with either the topic at hand (tagging images, text sections, whole articles in a way that allows either our software or external software to conditionally be shows or be hidden for specific users or groups of users) or with meta:deletionism, which is about the more or less strict standards applied for accepting and removing articles. WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, ... are all policies which have to do with unbalanced, slanted articles by careful selection of what to include and what to exclude, which is in general not a deletionist vs. inclusionist problem. Fram (talk) 15:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Possible piracy
I am directing here to inform about an unusual event that took place yesterday on this ANI report. What happend is that I provided a diff in the report (the first one) that at the moment I made the report contained substantially less edit content than in the moment User:Baseball Bugs responded (1 hour later). In the moment I made the report, the edit consisted only of the removal by User:DIREKTOR of the initial part:
"@DIREKTOR:
| “ | A devout Catholic such as yourself is hardly an objective ... | ” |
And atheist ,communist ,Yugonostalgic genious like you is 100% neutral??? Yeah, right! LOL
| “ | As a medical man I can say ... | ” |
a friendly piece of advice:stick to the topics that you understand (medicine) and stay away from the topics where you are total amateur (i.e. history)"
without any of the further changes found now in the same diff, meaning, all the rest (the section name changes, more comments removed, and the direktors explanation on bottom) were not there. That is another reason why I talk about "a comment" (single) in the report. Resumingly, the diff was modified without the modifications being recorded on the articles edit history. FkpCascais (talk) 00:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
I looked at this, but I don't understand it. Perhaps others can research this and comment. Is it possible for a diff to change based on suppression of intervening diffs or something?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- I also touth of that possibility, and that was why I waited one day to report this. I also touth that it could have been some upload problem and only the initial part of the edit was appearing to me, but no, I checked the edit several times back then when making the report (5 or 6 times at least) and it allways contained removed only the initial part. The edit was consistently shorter when donne, and expanded later. The diff was purpously modified so the author of the edit is spared from my complain, modifiying it in a way that instead of being a removal of one comment without any explanation (as it was initially, containing only the removal by direktor of the first comment found on the diff) it was now a removal of several comments with an explanation added at the bottom and including some section title changes. Obviously, I wouldn´t have reported the diff as it appears now after the modifications, and I wouldn´t be talking about the removal of "the comment" as I mention in the report. The diff was basically "fixed" with all the additions somewhere hapening around one hour after I made the report. That modification was donne not by normal editing but by some page content modification without being registred in the edit history, only explained by piratery, which in that case would be serios issue. FkpCascais (talk) 18:47, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- P.S.:As seen in the report (Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive681#Removal_of_another_user_comment_on_article_talk_page) I even went searcing for the diff when the removed comment was made, something I certainly wouldn´t do if there was a number of comments removed donne on different edits. The removal of the other comments, the adding of the explanation at bottom and the section titles changes were certaninly done later. FkpCascais (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Usertags
You should make it so that the only person able to edit a userpage is the user it belongs to because if one user got an award on wikipedia (You do give awards here, right?) and put it on their userpage as a usertag,the other user could just click edit, highlight the usertag code and in the thing at the top of the computer, click edit and paste, edit their userpage, and copy the award on their userpage.--Tepigisthe498th (talk to me!) 18:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yep. We like it that way. And you know what, that's such a silly thing to do, that I don't know of anyone ever actually doing it, giving themselves an award. I mean, it's a big noisy place, so I'm sure someone must have done it at some point, but it's just silly and no one would find it impressive at all. Most people are sensible, as it turns out.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:09, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- To expand on what Jimbo said, awards aren't really given any importance or meaning. They're really just there for editors to congratulate or thank one another, and there is no benefit to having them other than to show that someone appreciates your contributions.-RHM22 (talk) 03:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Pending Changes
I suspect you are following the ongoing and interminable discussions thereon. One particular item could be quickly laid to rest if someone in a position of authority could answer the issue of potential liability on the part of any reviewer for accepting an improper edit to any article. I suspect this is a simple matter at its root, but it does seem to bother a significant number of those (possibly a third or more) who are opposed to any such feature on Misplaced Pages. I am amazed at how many words can be used to express basically a small range of opinions :). The other issue is a belief that until the system is perfect that we ought not use it, which I find weak. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- I am unaware of any real issue relating to that. I think arguments that a reviewer accepting an improper edit causes them to become liable for it are thin. The exact same arguments would apply to anyone editing and saving any article with anything improper in it at all. A similar but simpler review system has been in place in German Misplaced Pages for a long time now, and no such problem has ever arisen there. Anyone who is concerned about such should not edit Misplaced Pages at all, really, because there is always a risk that a diff will be read wrong and you'll be seen to be saving something improper that someone else did. After 10 years, no one has ever had any trouble from that at all, and I doubt if anyone ever will.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Re-saving libel added by someone should never be a concern when editing a different part of an article. Clearly the originator of libel is responsible for it today. With pending changes, an editor may be assisting in the posting of libelous information because it is the approval action that makes it publicly visible. I hope that it's not a concern, but there is doubt. In addition, the legal status may vary by country. I don't even know if the applicable laws are from the country of the originator, the reviewer, or the Misplaced Pages servers. Here are some links with more questions than answers: , , . My quick read is that anyone living in the UK would be foolish to act as a reviewer. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think your post should make clear to Jimbo that at least some editors are specifically citing this as the issue they find troublesome, and that a definitive answer should sway those holding this as their objection. Collect (talk) 10:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I find it troublesome, but it's not my only issue. It's first on my list because liability impacts the number of available reviewers, which has a big effect on all the other issues. —UncleDouggie (talk) 11:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think a definitive answer is possible under any circumstances. The law doesn't work that way. I find the argument completely and totally uncompelling. I often edit from the UK (doing it right now) and this doesn't worry me one bit. What I would recommend is a clear statement of what it means to review making it clear upon submission and as a part of overall policy on the site that to review something is not to claim that it is libel-free but merely an indication by one user of a website that upon a cursory review the changes made were not blatant vandalism.
- We don't have an answer right now as to whether a court might find you liable for clicking on 'save' and thus 'co-authoring' libel when you see a spelling error and fix it in the midst of something awful. No court has ever held such, and no plaintiff has ever argued such. I expect the same to be true of this concern if the action is clicking on a review button. We won't know for sure what a court will say, but it won't matter because it's just extremely unlikely to ever come up in the first place.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I thought; but I still don't understand why people think it's any different for PC rejection than it would be for e.g. rollbacks. See here. Chzz ► 15:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm somewhat less concerned about fixing spelling errors, although this very issue is mentioned as a problem in the links I gave. More troubling is that the software displays a pending change as being "accepted by" the reviewer. Several editors are concerned over this. I know that the WMF can't be our lawyers. However, it would be nice if they could give us some links to the appropriate laws and a guide to how to determine which country's laws would apply to a given case. Alternatively, perhaps we could engage the EFF if Jimbo has some contacts there. After all, we're not a small website anymore and if we can't figure this out I don't know how the rest of the world can. —UncleDouggie (talk) 00:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- My concern is that reviewers are given a special status above normal users, and choose whether or not to make submissions viewable to the general public. I think someone might argue that this makes them publishers. I am concerned that PC could be packaged as a "quick check for vandalism", but then reviewers become unwilling to approve potentially libelous edits - by which I mean unflattering information which is sourced to an offline, paywalled, or unfamiliar publication. There are already reviewers saying they do reject such edits. Now the same may be true in semi-protected articles, where editors need to submit requested changes under their own names; but the difference is that any one of dozens of people reading a semi-protected article's talk page might take the time to review the proposed edit properly, or submit a more temperately worded version, whereas with PC there is one quick yes/no decision. Wnt (talk) 08:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- If users are unwilling to approve negative material sourced to "an offline, paywalled, or unfamiliar publication" then all I can say is: good. That's a big part of the point here: to provide a bit of buffer so that the public gets access only to material that is of the highest possible quality, in all cases, but particularly when a living person's reputation is at stake.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm somewhat less concerned about fixing spelling errors, although this very issue is mentioned as a problem in the links I gave. More troubling is that the software displays a pending change as being "accepted by" the reviewer. Several editors are concerned over this. I know that the WMF can't be our lawyers. However, it would be nice if they could give us some links to the appropriate laws and a guide to how to determine which country's laws would apply to a given case. Alternatively, perhaps we could engage the EFF if Jimbo has some contacts there. After all, we're not a small website anymore and if we can't figure this out I don't know how the rest of the world can. —UncleDouggie (talk) 00:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I thought; but I still don't understand why people think it's any different for PC rejection than it would be for e.g. rollbacks. See here. Chzz ► 15:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I find it troublesome, but it's not my only issue. It's first on my list because liability impacts the number of available reviewers, which has a big effect on all the other issues. —UncleDouggie (talk) 11:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think your post should make clear to Jimbo that at least some editors are specifically citing this as the issue they find troublesome, and that a definitive answer should sway those holding this as their objection. Collect (talk) 10:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Re-saving libel added by someone should never be a concern when editing a different part of an article. Clearly the originator of libel is responsible for it today. With pending changes, an editor may be assisting in the posting of libelous information because it is the approval action that makes it publicly visible. I hope that it's not a concern, but there is doubt. In addition, the legal status may vary by country. I don't even know if the applicable laws are from the country of the originator, the reviewer, or the Misplaced Pages servers. Here are some links with more questions than answers: , , . My quick read is that anyone living in the UK would be foolish to act as a reviewer. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
In short - there is no credible reason to think that reviewers would be especially subject to any legal liability beyond what all editors currently have (nil for anything made in good faith). Misplaced Pages, of course, retains the OTRS system which would still be used if necessary, furnishing yet another layer of protection. I regard the odd side issue of saying "reviewers would be above ordinary users" to be neatly irrelevant to the issue as to whether "pending changes" as a system should be used and improved over time. And the reviewers I know do not make snap decisions. Collect (talk) 12:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Happy First Day of Spring!
Happy First Day of Spring!
Just wishing you a wonderful First Day of Spring 2011! Mifter (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
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Evil clown image in Coulrophobia
Image of clown presented in such a way as to allow user choice
Should this clown image be added to Coulrophobia?(See also Talk:Coulrophobia#Removal_of_File:Scary_clown.jpg and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Psychology#Images_in_phobia_articles)Smallman12q (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- This seems like an ideal example of a case in which the use of javascript to permit user choice would be a service to the reader.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Looks a good idea. Could be used for more sensitive images in some articles.--BSTemple (talk) 12:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Agree absolutely. I'm going to bring it up at an ongoing WP:NFCR discussion about a disturbing image. --Moonriddengirl 12:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Except that with ResourceLoader in MediaWiki 1.17, the image is first displayed and then a short-time later it is collapsed. The delay is dependent on network load and the state of the user's browser cache, but it can definitely be seen in most cases. It is also visible in both the edit and preview windows if using WP:wikEd. —UncleDouggie (talk) 12:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I noticed that and chuckled to myself (against my will and better judgment)... when I was testing the hidden-template, I kept seeing a "subliminal flash" of the clown. I think that just argues for, as well, keeping the image towards the bottom of the article as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- The current consensus is to keep the image out. Not because it serves as a potential trigger of panic (which it does), but because it doesn't illustrate the topic. It could also confuse readers, as it's not a fear of "evil" clowns, or scary clowns. It's a fear of clowns, and that image doesn't depict that fear. An example of an appropriate image for a phobia article is the lead image in arachnophobia. It illustrates the fear itself. Simply putting an image of the source of fear is unnecessary. People know what clowns are, and if they're so fortunate not to, there's a handy link to clowns where they can find all the information (and pictures!) they need. Additionally, the idea of hiding the image with code has already been discussed on Talk:Coulrophobia with the introduction of a collapsible image box, which would be the more appropriate option than the collapsible discussion box used above. Lara 19:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with all of this. Regarding a collapsible discussion box versus collapsible image box, I just didn't know what template to use. This is a very common problem and a broader problem that I think we should be thinking about as a community: it's often very hard for even experienced editors to figure out how to do something. For my work in Misplaced Pages, I seldom work on anything that needs collapsing, so I just didn't know how to do it. So when I set out to do it, I had trouble.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- A Buh --A Buh -A Buh - a Billy Boy!!. I had nightmares for weeks after that clown!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with all of this. Regarding a collapsible discussion box versus collapsible image box, I just didn't know what template to use. This is a very common problem and a broader problem that I think we should be thinking about as a community: it's often very hard for even experienced editors to figure out how to do something. For my work in Misplaced Pages, I seldom work on anything that needs collapsing, so I just didn't know how to do it. So when I set out to do it, I had trouble.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- The current consensus is to keep the image out. Not because it serves as a potential trigger of panic (which it does), but because it doesn't illustrate the topic. It could also confuse readers, as it's not a fear of "evil" clowns, or scary clowns. It's a fear of clowns, and that image doesn't depict that fear. An example of an appropriate image for a phobia article is the lead image in arachnophobia. It illustrates the fear itself. Simply putting an image of the source of fear is unnecessary. People know what clowns are, and if they're so fortunate not to, there's a handy link to clowns where they can find all the information (and pictures!) they need. Additionally, the idea of hiding the image with code has already been discussed on Talk:Coulrophobia with the introduction of a collapsible image box, which would be the more appropriate option than the collapsible discussion box used above. Lara 19:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I noticed that and chuckled to myself (against my will and better judgment)... when I was testing the hidden-template, I kept seeing a "subliminal flash" of the clown. I think that just argues for, as well, keeping the image towards the bottom of the article as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Except that with ResourceLoader in MediaWiki 1.17, the image is first displayed and then a short-time later it is collapsed. The delay is dependent on network load and the state of the user's browser cache, but it can definitely be seen in most cases. It is also visible in both the edit and preview windows if using WP:wikEd. —UncleDouggie (talk) 12:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Agree absolutely. I'm going to bring it up at an ongoing WP:NFCR discussion about a disturbing image. --Moonriddengirl 12:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Looks a good idea. Could be used for more sensitive images in some articles.--BSTemple (talk) 12:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Delayed changes need activation
Dear Sir I have heard much in news about so-called "Delayed changes" system. Would be very helpful in deal with sneaky people like Special:Contributions/The Last Wikipedian It is a most excellent idea! 91.121.183.89 (talk) 04:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
British heraldry
Hi Jimbo! I need some help regarding British heraldry. The article Charles Edward Stuart, Count Roehenstart is currently at DYK. May I know how the heraldry title should be at the DYK hook? Should it be Count Charles Edward Stuart, or Charles Edward Stuart, Count de Roehenstart? Bejinhan talks 13:23, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, I am not an expert on British heraldry, but I do know that "Count" is not a British title. The British equivalent is "Earl". So probably you'll want to ask around. A natural assumption might be that the title of the article is the natural title to use in the DYK, but that can be a tricky thing. Although, I don't know much about Continental conventions, I note that in the article we say that his headstone reads "GENERAL CHARLES EDWARD STUART COUNT ROEHENSTART".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Mmm, but the article also points out that he wasn't actually a General (but he was "sometimes" called that). Sources vary in the way they state the name;
- Burke's Peerage says "...more commonly known as Charles Edward Stuart, Count de Roehenstart"; The Complete Peerage says "Charles Edward Stuart was styled as Count Roehenstart, self-styled" and then, there is a book entitled, "The pedigree of Charles Edward Stuart, Count of Roehenstart". So plenty of choices; probably none definitive.
- I'd be inclined to go with Burke's - Charles Edward Stuart, Count de Roehenstart - pending any other info, because it sounds about right. But yes, we could ask around. incidentally, I suggested asking you, Mr. Wales, because I remembered reading that you were interested in articles on English nobility articles - but if I remembered wrongly, or the press was wrong...sorry - Mea culpa. Chzz ► 16:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keenly interested, but not an expert.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Cool, cheers. Chzz ► 17:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- The article itself seems somewhat weak. It wasn't clear to me on first reading whether or not the guy actually was a "Count" (a Continental title) or was, as your quote from Burke's suggests, "self-styled" - i.e. he made up a meaningless title for himself.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- Cool, cheers. Chzz ► 17:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Keenly interested, but not an expert.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to go with Burke's - Charles Edward Stuart, Count de Roehenstart - pending any other info, because it sounds about right. But yes, we could ask around. incidentally, I suggested asking you, Mr. Wales, because I remembered reading that you were interested in articles on English nobility articles - but if I remembered wrongly, or the press was wrong...sorry - Mea culpa. Chzz ► 16:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Is extreme opposite of censorship: cluttership
Some reactions to the talk of deleting, or rather hiding, text, for particular user groups, leads to the opposite concern: what if a user group wanted much more information to be displayed, as their preference about an article? Of course, that would be more rare, and I have had a difficult time trying to find a common word for this viewpoint, such as the non-existent word "cluttership" (or "data hoarding"), to describe people who want tons of information to be revealed about a subject. In this extreme view, some users might want the discussion about nude portraits, by a particular painter, to describe virtually all forms of nudity painted, and could be expected to include a rough count of those paintings and perhaps the titles of almost all nude portraits created by that painter. In reality, I have rarely seen that level of requested detail for art. However, in the sports articles (yup, currently exceeding 1.5 million? pages), there is a similar type of cluttership, with navboxes linking to every game played (complete with home-visitor scores and probably also listing the major game maneuvers). This would be akin to articles for all "87" episodes of "9,000" TV shows, or a similar level of detail, viewed as cluttership. Anyway, the main point is to beware people who might want a user group to view a greater, in-depth coverage, than the general public would prefer. Isn't it a relief to have a rare problem to consider? -Wikid77 02:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- "Cluttership" is rightly known as Misplaced Pages. Everyone who builds it wants something to be known. Wnt (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2011 (UTC)