Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:45, 22 March 2011

Important notice: Prior discussion has determined that pictures of Muhammad are allowed and will not be removed from this article. Discussion of images should be posted to the subpage Talk:Muhammad/images. Removal of pictures without discussion will be reverted. If you find Muhammad images offensive, it is possible to configure your browser or use your personal Misplaced Pages settings not to display them, see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. The FAQ below addresses some common points of argument, including the use of images and honorifics such as "peace be upon him". The FAQ represents prior consensus of editors here. If you are new to this article and have a question or suggestion for it, please read the FAQ first.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Muhammad. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Shouldn't all the images of Muhammad be removed because they might offend Muslims? A1: Further information: Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not § Misplaced Pages is not censored, and Misplaced Pages:Content disclaimer There is a prohibition of depicting Muhammad in certain Muslim communities. This prohibition is not universal among Muslim communities. For a discussion, see Depictions of Muhammad and Aniconism in Islam. Misplaced Pages is not bound by any religious prohibitions, and it is an encyclopedia that strives to represent all topics from a neutral point of view, and therefore Misplaced Pages is not censored for the sake of any particular group. So long as they are relevant to the article and do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's existing policies, nor the laws of locations where Misplaced Pages's servers are hosted, no content or images will be removed from Misplaced Pages because people find them objectionable or offensive. (See also: Misplaced Pages:Content disclaimer.) Misplaced Pages does not single out Islam in this. There is content that may be equally offensive to other religious people, such as the 1868 photograph shown at Bahá'u'lláh (offensive to adherents of the Bahá'í Faith), or the account of Scientology's "secret doctrine" at Xenu (offensive to adherents of Scientology), or the account at Timeline of human evolution (offensive to adherents of young Earth creationism). Submitting to all these various sensitivities would make writing a neutral encyclopedia impossible. Q2: Aren't the images of Muhammad false? A2: No claim is made about the accuracy of the depictions of Muhammad. The artists who painted these images lived hundreds of years after Muhammad and could not have seen him themselves. This fact is made absolutely clear in the image captions. The images are duly presented as notable 14th- to 17th-century Muslim artwork depicting Muhammad, not as contemporary portraits. See Depictions of Muhammad for a more detailed discussion of Muslim artwork depicting Muhammad. Similar artistic interpretations are used in articles for Homer, Charlemagne, Paul of Tarsus, and many other historical figures. When no accurate images (i.e. painted after life, or photographs) exist, it is a longstanding practice on Misplaced Pages to incorporate images that are historically significant artwork and/or typical examples of popular depictions. Using images that readers understand to be artistic representations, so long as those images illustrate the topic effectively, is considered to be more instructive than using no image at all. Random recent depictions may be removed as undue in terms of notability, while historical artwork (in this case, of the Late Medieval or Ottoman period) adds significantly to the presentation of how Muhammad was being topicalized throughout history. These depictions are not intended as factual representations of Muhammad's face; rather, they are merely artists' conceptions. Such portrayals generally convey a certain aspect of a particular incident, most commonly the event itself, or maybe the act, akin to the Western genre of history painting. The depictions are, thus, not meant to be accurate in the sense of a modern photograph, and are presented here for what they are: yet another form in which Muhammad was depicted. None of these pictures hold a central position in the article, as evident by their placement, nor are they an attempt to insult the subject. Several factions of Christianity oppose the use of hagiographic imagery (even to the point of fighting over it), but the images are still on Misplaced Pages, exactly for what they are—i.e. artistic renditions of said people. Q3: How can I hide the images using my personal Misplaced Pages settings? A3: If you do not wish to view Muhammad images, you can hide the depictions in this article from your personal account by following these steps: Sign in or create an account Click on this link to modify your personal CSS stylesheet (if no page is there already, just go ahead and create a page) Click the edit button, and add the following line: .page-Muhammad .depiction {display: none;} Click Publish changes or Publish page to save the preference Please note that this will not hide the images for other users, or from yourself if you log out of your account. Alternatives: If you do not have an account, and do not wish to register an account, you can disable all images on Misplaced Pages by going to the mobile version of the website (en.m.wikipedia.org), then going to "settings" and choosing "images off". You may also block a list of specified images, following the format of this example. Experienced JavaScript programmers can hide depictions of Muhammad on the desktop site using Greasemonkey or a similar tool. Q4: Why does the infobox at the top of the article contain a stylized logo and not a picture of Muhammad? A4: This has been discussed many times on Talk:Muhammad and many debates can be found in the archives. Because calligraphic depictions of Muhammad are the most common and recognizable worldwide, the current consensus is to include a calligraphic depiction of Muhammad in the infobox and artists' depictions further down in the article. An RFC discussion confirmed this consensus. Q5: Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article? A5: Further information: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles § Muhammad Misplaced Pages's biography style guidelines recommend omitting all honorifics, such as The Prophet, (The) Holy Prophet, (pbuh), or (saw), that precede or follow Muhammad's name. This is because many editors consider such honorifics as promoting an Islamic point of view instead of a neutral point of view which Misplaced Pages is required to maintain. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people) also recommends against the use of titles or honorifics, such as Prophet, unless it is the simplest and most neutral way to deal with disambiguation. When disambiguation is necessary, the recommended form is the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Q6: Why does the article say that Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam? A6: While the Muslim viewpoint about Muhammad is already presented in the article, a Misplaced Pages biography article should emphasize historical and scholarly viewpoints. The contention that Islam has always existed is a religious belief, grounded in faith, and Misplaced Pages cannot promote religious beliefs as facts. Because no religion known as "Islam" exists in any recorded history prior to Muhammad, and Muhammad created the conditions for Islam to spread by unifying Arabia into a single religious polity, he effectively founded the establishment of Islam as the dominant religion in the region. The word "founder" is used in that context, and not intended to imply that Muhammad invented the religion he introduced to Arabia. Q7: Why does it look like the article is biased toward secular or "Western" references? A7: Further information: Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view Accusations of bias toward Western references are often made when an objection is raised against the display of pictures of Muhammad or lack of honorifics when mentioning Muhammad. All articles on Misplaced Pages are required to present a neutral point of view. This neutrality is sometimes mistaken for hostility. Note that exactly the same guidelines apply to articles about Christianity or any other religion. In addition, this article is hosted on the English-language Misplaced Pages. While references in languages other than English are not automatically inappropriate, English-language references are preferred, because they are of the most use to the typical reader. This therefore predisposes the material used in this article to some degree (see WP:NONENG). Q8: Why can't I edit this article as a new or anonymous user? A8: Persistent disruption of the page has forced us to disable editing by anonymous editors and new accounts, while still allowing edits by more experienced users who are familiar with Misplaced Pages's editorial policies and guidelines. This is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future. In any case, the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License grants everybody the right to republish this article elsewhere, and even to modify it themselves, so long as the original authors (Misplaced Pages contributors) are also credited and the derivative work is distributed under the same license. Q9: Can censorship be employed on Misplaced Pages? A9: No. The official policy is that Misplaced Pages is not censored. Q10: Because Muhammad married an underage girl, should the article say he was a pedophile? A10: This question has been actively discussed in Talk:Muhammad, and those discussions are archived. According to most traditional sources, Muhammad consummated his marriage to his third wife Aisha when she was nine years old. This was not considered unusual in Muhammad's culture and time period; therefore, there is no reason for the article to refer to Muhammad in the context of pedophilia. Even today, in parts of the world, the legal age of consent is as young as eleven years old, or any age inside of a marriage. In any case, any modern controversy about Aisha's age is not best dealt with in a biography about Muhammad. See the articles on Aisha and Criticism of Muhammad § Aisha for further information. References C. (Colin) Turner, Islam: The Basics, Routledge Press, pp.34–35

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Edit request from Danishullahkhan, 8 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

The currently says: Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) "was the founder of the religion of Islam"

This is totally incorrect. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was not the founder of the religion of Islam, he was the last and the final messenger of Islam. The religion of Islam was founded since time immemorial, since Prophet Adam stepped on this earth. So please correct this enormous mistake that will mislead people about Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).

Thanks you.

Danishullahkhan (talk) 00:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this...It is a huge mistake...It will surely mislead people of other faiths...Muslims believe Islam has always been in existence (i.e. since Prophet Adam)...Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not the only messenger of Islam...There were many others before him...But he was the last messenger of Islam... — Preceding unsigned comment added by EXquisite Inception (talk • contribs) 03:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

No one is misled. The article says "Muslims thus consider him the restorer of an uncorrupted original monotheistic faith (islām) of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and other prophets." It's just that people who are not Muslims (most people on the planet are not Muslims) don't accept as fact what you happen to believe as a matter of faith.DeCausa (talk) 10:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

 Not done. This has been discussed at length on this talk page in the past; please see the archives. Basically you are stating a religious belief, not a neutral statement in keeping with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. It is an artifact of the English language that the word "founder" is appropriate because there was no religion known as "Islam" before Muhammad came along. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Addendum: I wouldn't object to some other wording. Instead of "founder of Islam", perhaps "known for introducing Islam to the world" or something similar. The point is we need to mention the one fact that makes Muhammad notable, as well as maintain the secular tone of an encyclopedia. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The OP's view is explained in the second half of the first sentence and all of the second sentence. The only way that we could make it more clear would be to reorder the first sentence to say that he is regarded by Muslims as the final messenger and by everyone else as the founder. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there any harm in adding after "founder of Islam" something like "(although Muslims do not consider him the founder because they believe Islam pre-dated him)"? For me (as a non-Muslim) that actually gives me some information. It seems to me to clarify the connection between him being founder and the last sentence of the paragraph, which to the casual reader is slightly contradictory. (I know it isn't really, but often the 'casual' reader needs things being quite explicit to get the info across.) DeCausa (talk) 13:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest a smaller tweak, just to that last sentence: "Thus, rather than founder, Muslims consider Muhammad ...". It's the state the obvious principle. /ninly_(talk) 14:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. DeCausa (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The issue was raised by me earlier also and no solution found till date. I also feel the tweak suggested by Ninly will serve the purpose.--Md iet (talk) 06:53, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it might be a little clumsy to add the information to the sentence, but it works pretty well as a footnote. I've added one to that effect. Please feel free to fix my somewhat awkward wording, and (especially) to source it.—Chowbok ☠ 10:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Your Note seems not convey the meaning properly. All the justifications already exist in the lead Para only slight link is to be given to word 'founder'. The tweak suggested as "Thus, rather than founder' fits perfectly, if any better suggestion on the wording available you may suggest.--Md iet (talk) 04:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're trying to say.—Chowbok ☠ 13:05, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Note modified now seems clarify the position better.--Md iet (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

First a simple question: Wouldn't it be according to the neutrality ideal of the wikipedia community to let the Muslim population have as much to say in regard of the presentation of Muhammed(PBWH), as the Christian population have influence on the presentation of Jesus(PBUH)? If all other religious adherents and others in general stated in an imaginary Misplaced Pages that Christians believed that Jesus created the World. Whereas the Christians would like the article to say that Jesus in fact was the Son of God, sent to redeem all people and so on, would it in such a case be as evidently erroneous to seek for a compromise? Hopefully it could bring a solution in which the Christians, in this case, not necessarily found the information on Jesus to be based on grounds of infidelity, or anything like it. My point is that if the information given on Misplaced Pages is against your religion, it is a great possibility for abjection, in best case a mutual disregard. In regard of the importance of a hightened sense of Discourse ethics I propose that the main article is moved from Muhammad to Muhammad (PBUH). And full accept for the correction proposed by Danishullahkhan. There are full support for a betterment of the climate in the sphere of inter-religious talk by all religious authorities. Misplaced Pages, including this talkpage, should therefor strive towards efforts that help such. The proposed changes will do so. --Xact (talk) 00:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

No, the neutrality policy says that we don't add any "opinions" to articles without citing them, not that we allow people who are involved to decide what they prefer best. By your logic, we could "neutrally" allow biographical subjects or companies to expunge all negative information about themselves because that's what they preferred. I think, perhaps you're confusing the requirement that article content be neutral with our desire that all people can edit regardless of their personal opinions. It is correct that our neutrality policy contradicts the requirements of some groups. But that will always be true. For instance, we have articles on Democracy, even though reading about that subject in China is forbidden; should we remove or somehow hide that information? Similarly, many religions prohibit openly discussing sexuality, so should we strip out all of those articles? And what about those religions that consider bare arms on women to be a prohibited form of nudity--must we purge all such pictures? And what happens when the preferences of two groups are contradictory? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Xact, should the contents of the Ahmadiyya article be determined by Ahmadiyya adherents or Islamophobia by Islam-haters and Satanism by Satanists? DeCausa (talk) 07:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I feel that you're missing my point, and avoiding my question about intercultural neutrality. My dissident point of view in this case, doesn't necessarily imply that I am in the opposite position of your stands. I simply take it for a reality that christians do edit Jesus and Muslims Muhammad (Peace be Upon them both). Indeed, I hope both edit both, as I hope atheists edit God. I believe I am pointing my finger to a problem that needs to be solved. Misplaced Pages are perhaps regarded more in tune with worldviews held by White Anglican Saxon People. I don't identify myself as a cultural relativist, but I'm humble enough to not to assume my cultural background as of priveleged status in regard of truths and facts. In regard of the 'Ahmadiyya'-arguement; it would be an asset for the article if it would be considered not offensive by Ahmadiyya adherents and that they could enjoy parttaking in the talk:pages. The Academic standards are erroneously held to be a merely western ideal summoning. --Xact (talk) 00:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

This kind of thing belongs at WP:VILLAGEPUMP, not Talk:Muhammad. - Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:48, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Why? --Xact (talk) 05:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Because (and this may be a misunderstanding) you seem to be seeking a change in the policy on verifiability, which currently says that the content of articles must be verifiable by reliable sources. A Muslim (Christian, Buddhist, pagan, atheist etc) who wishes to add or change content in any article, including the articles on Muhammad, Jesus etc, must be able to find a published source for it. You appear to be saying that a religious person should be able to edit the article and insert their own religious knowledge/opinion, which would be a big change and require community consensus, which it is very unlikely to get. Now it may be that what you meant was that as editors on the English Misplaced Pages tend to be western (although we have a considerable number of editors from the Indian subcontinent), they tend to preferentially use sources in English which, in the case of Muhammad, tend to be from a western viewpoint. This is almost certainly true, although good editors strive to avoid it, if they have no Arabic, then sources in Arabic are inaccessable. This may mean that a good deal of scholarly information is not included, and may be known only to Arabic speakers with an interest in Muhammad. A position that we should encourage those with access to such sources to take an interest in editing the article, and bringing in more sources, is a good one, as it would introduce a more rounded view and help to prevent errors.Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Elen at the roads... Yes, it is a misunderstanding. With all due respect, among academic scholars of religion there are people of all sorts of religious orientation. To held a view does not imply that one cannot be scientific in one's approach and study. To have a life is an indication that one is biased. A proper academic approach is to a matter of being aware of it, and put one's biased orientation into context. I am Norwegian. I will be biased in regard of how I edit Norway and related articles. I'm an artist, I have a view on art, it affects me in how I read, and write about Henrik Ibsen. I'm trained in Semiotics, holding an higher degree, it's like a plague in my mind, reading, or editing philosophy related articles, or politics, not to mention history. The huge difference between wikipedia and other encyclopedia is exactly that the articles here do not have a single subjective author and signature. When we are not aware of that, it sometimes turn out to be a most embarrasing feature of the wikipedia, as is examplified by the current english Muhammad (PBUH) article. I'm emotionally saddened by how it looks right now. Both in regard of the image-debate, and the pointing at him as the founder of the Religion of Islam. It is embarrassing because it reduces the academic standard of Misplaced Pages enormously. It is incredible insensitive to the otherwise scholarly awareness of the problem regarding 'religion' as a scientific concept and subject of study. Especially in connection with the challenge of translating the 16th Century invention of using the Latin concept 'Religionem' as scientific concept, into Arabic 'Din', the relationship between religion and science is profound. It is an unsolved issue. It is terribly misleading to signal it differently. To state in the very first line of the article that Muhammad (PBUH) (I say without regarding myself a muslim) is the founder of the Religion of Islam, is tremendously ethnocentric, i.e. biased, an example gratia of not-neutral. The Prophet is explicitly stating that he is not a founder of Religion himself (citation needed, but it shouldn't be to difficult to find). It is hard to believe such narrowness of mind which is here displayed. It is utterly unscientific. With 'unscientific' I signify rational cognition dictated by libidinal forces such as desire and fear. The fact that the vast majority of the western world are indoctrinated from child school and everyday media that Islam is a religion founded by Saint Muhammad, does not make such an assumption scientifically valid! On the other hand, it is a question of how the concept 'Religion' is defined. If an excommunicated person within a religious community continue to gain followers, allthough claiming the same authenticity in regard of lineage, we may come to agree that this is a possible way for a religion to take form (as the years go by). But even in such a case, the Prophet, could hardly be seen as the founder, as his christology relates to excommunicated Presbyter Arius of Alexandria, some 300 years ahead of him. In matter of fact, it would paradoxically, be more in line with a neutral ground to state that Muhammad (PBUH) is the originator of the heretical movement called Islam, or Mohammedanism. This is NOT my suggestion, but simply an attempt to show the graveness in regard of the breach in understanding; or what I see as lack of realising inherent ethnocentrism. Scientific standards is a matter of ethics, as metaphysics is about physics. --Xact (talk) 03:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

If you see so many problems with the article, why not fix it yourself? You should be able to edit the article since you are a registered user. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 03:52, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Because xe knows that there isn't consensus to make the changes xe is suggesting. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

He should be able to change consensus with good enough sources. "Because that's how I feel" is of course not a good enough reason. If you can cite verifiable sources then it's fine. IF. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 04:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Pedophile

Mohammed was a Paedophile why isn't that stated in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.202.213.254 (talk) 15:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to support that claim? --Dekker451 (talk) 21:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources. However, this is already addressed in Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Judging someone who lives 1400 years ago on today's standards, very smart. Why do you people even reply to obvious troll posts set out to offend certain people? >_> --Τασουλα (Shalom!) (talk) 22:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Assume good faith. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 22:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Asimali700, 24 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} please change by most Muslims, the last prophet of Islam as taught by the Qur'an. to this by all Muslims, the last prophet of Islam as taught by the Qur'an.

because as by reference no.3 ^ Qur'an 33:40 he is the last prophet and anyone who doesn't believe in qur'an is not considered as a muslim

in the Notes no. 4 : Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is not considered as Muslims by most Muslims in the world

Asimali700 (talk) 09:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Qur'an is not a reliable source, because your point here is your interpretation of the Qur'an. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, read the footnote attached to that statement in the article. There are groups who consider themselves Muslim who recognize later prophets. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Baphomet

The main problem with this article is that it draws too heavily on the Muslim view of Muhammad. Muhammad was an extremely influential person, and belongs to the history of the whole human race (for good or ill). We would never, for example, consider having an article on Hitler written largely from the standpoint of neo-Nazis. In particular, other people worshipped Muhammad who were not Muslims. As is well known, the Knights Templar worshipped him under the name of Baphomet (or at least were accused of doing so, which is just as noteworthy). The figure of Baphomet survived in European belief, and was famously depicted by Eliphas Levi, as pictured. Baphomet has since become a very important deity in European and American Neopaganism. The article should mention this. ðarkuncoll 00:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The only way I can see Muhammad resembling Baphomet is one of several spellings of that name (ie, "Mohamet"). Arabic is rather weird about many words having multiple spellings when written with the Latin alphabet. The circumstances of the destruction of the Templars make the assertion that the Templars worshipped Baphomet rather dubious. Frotz (talk) 03:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually the Baphomet article has citations to this connection with Muhammad, as well as to a claim that some Templars were bringing Islamic ideas into the group. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:02, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Unless neopagans consciously worship Muhammad under the name Baphomet, I can't see the relevance. The fact that they worship a deity who was given a name by Levi which he got from the trumped-up evidence aginst the Templars, and which in turn is thought to have been an orthographical error for "Muhammad" is, well, tenuous in the extreme and really just trivia. So, besides the "Baphomet connection", who else worships Muhammad? If no one, I can't really see the point of the original post. DeCausa (talk) 14:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

By saying that, you appear to be making a judgement about the validity of Neopagan practice compared to that of Islam. ðarkuncoll 16:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

No, I said "unless neopagans consciously worship Muhammad under the name Baphomet, I can't see the relevance". If you have sources showing there is a worship of Muhammad (albeit under the name Baphomet), you might have an argument for a mention under "Legacy", though it would need some back-up on numbers etc. But if not, what's neopaganism got to with it except a tenuous name link? And who are these others that worship Muhammad? In any case, even if neo-pagans do worship Muhammad, what specifically would change in the text of the article outside of 'Legacy', in your view? DeCausa (talk) 17:25, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the Lead might have to change to something like: "...is considered the founder of the religion of Islam, and is regarded by Muslims as a messenger and prophet of God and is also considered by neo-pagans to be a deity linked to the Sabbatic Goat and often called Baphomet..." If we thought we got a lot of postings about PBUH, "founder" and images, well........ DeCausa (talk) 18:47, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't belong here. We have a separate page for this crap. Besides, this horse is dead. You're all just wasting time. OhNoitsJamie 22:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Hold on, which crap? The Baphomet crap? Which page does it belong on? Or are you referring to something else? -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 22:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think itsJamie was referring to the images thread I moved to the sub-page. He posted it after I moved the thread, but maybe he had an old version cached or something. Pretty sure he doesn't mean the Baphomet thread. We can still beat that horse plenty should the desire take us.—Chowbok ☠ 22:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, exactly. I thought this was still the "images" discussion (which was apparently removed before I posted). OhNoitsJamie 22:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Images (but not the "Muslim" or "WP:NOTCENSORED" viewpoints)

I know this should go on the Images Talk page but it's difficult to get a discussion going there because it's pretty much ignored (due to postings of the usual requests). I hope thius can be left here for a short while anyway because I wanted to raise a different point. Here is a post I made on that page:

"I'm increasingly coming to the view that these images are somewhat problematic and that focusing the argument on WP:NOTCENSORED (bacause of the Muslim reaction) has stunted a "normal" discussion on the images value. I posted on this in an earlier thread but that didn't really go anywhere. I'll cut and paste the main point: "It seems to me that, as a generality, there would be three reasons to chose an image: to show what the person actually looked like (not applicable); to show what they might have looked like - typical style of dress etc (not applicable to most, as Ottoman/Ilkhanid styles are shown - perhaps applies to the Russian paninting); and to show what the prevalent cultural image of that person is, eg as with Jesus (mostly not applicable - since by definition there is no cultural image in general. The images shown are representative of 2 relatively narror cultural sources)." I think the representation of Muhammad in calligraphy in the infobox actually satisfies the third justification of an "image" since that is the overwhelmingly preponderent way of representing him. There's a real discussion to be had on this but it's been drowned out by the "Islamic" v. "not censored" positions."

It's slightly expanded in this thread. Any thoughts? DeCausa (talk) 11:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There aren't just three reasons to choose an image. A fourth reason would be to provide an illustration of an historical event. A fifth reason would be to create a visual break-up of a monotonous flow of text with an image that has relevance to that text. Both of these purposes add value to an article, they are valid, and applicable to this article.

The only reason the images generate controversy is because some Muslims choose to be offended by them — for which the counterargument is WP:NOTCENSORED. Take all that discussion out of the talk page archives and you have almost nothing left. The real question is, do the images add value to the article? From my point of view, when I read through the article from my non-Muslim perspective, I would give a resounding "yes". ~Amatulić (talk) 16:53, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

<sigh...> I don't want to get involved in this debate at the moment, but I have to point out the NOTCENSORED is intended to preserve the ability of the encyclopedia to present necessary information in articles. It is not carte blanche for indulging every little bit of prurience and crapulence that wikipedia editors might enjoy (because - unfortunately - wikipedia by its open nature is a bottomless pit of petty prurience and crapulence). there is no necessary reason to show an image of the prophet in this article, and any argument one might give for doing so will ultimately boil down to ILIKEIT, and do I really need to comment on the poverty of common sense that puts an ILIKEIT rationale ahead of offense to hundreds of thousands of other people? like I said: petty crapulence. --Ludwigs2 18:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The same could be said for any image on Misplaced Pages. WP:NOTCENSORED says nothing whatsoever about including only "necessary" information. That would violate the purpose of a project intended to be encyclopedic, useful, and interesting. Including relevant information is what WP:NOTCENSORED is all about (read it). Furthermore, let's stick to the topic. WP:NOTCENSORED is a side issue in this thread. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

You've added two further reasons to my three. ("A fourth reason would be to provide an illustration of an historical event. A fifth reason would be to create a visual break-up of a monotonous flow of text with an image that has relevance to that text.") On the illustration of a historical event, by the nature of the stylistic approach (the paintings are art not journalism) I think it's difficult, again with the exception of the Russian painting, to argue that they are very informative depictions of an event. With regard to your fifth reason, I think that has always to be a minor one and I think that it is reasonable to say that this reason must be subject to not giving offence (since it is so minor in an encyclopedia). I notice that you didn't argue that the pictures are acceptable under the three reasons I give. I'm left feeling a little uncomfortable with our rationale for having these pictures. Is it just about defying a POV and defending WP:NOTCENSORED? You say you give a "resounding yes" to "do they add value". I'm not really seeing it at the moment. DeCausa (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Paintings of historical events are never journalism. I'm surprised you would make that argument. Go to any royal palace in Europe and look at the ceiling murals depicting key battles in the country's history. They are artwork, intended to glorify a specific subject. Nobody ever claims they adhere to any standard of journalistic accuracy. And they need not do so (one particular ceiling of the royal palaces in France and Sweden, for example, depict the same battle scene between Sweden and France, commissioned by the same artist, but with different emphasis to please the customer). The point is that they depict an historical event. My fourth reason was "to provide an illustration of an historical event". The images serve that purpose, and they serve that purpose very well.

Don't belittle the value of creating a break in the monotony of lengthy text. You may regard this as minor, but it isn't. Just seeing an image or two in a section can make a person more willing to read the section. Even if I don't look at the images, the visual effect keeps the interest up. Like many other human beings, I tend to skip over walls o' text. An article's ability to inform a reader should not be overridden by the fact that some readers may find an image offensive. The images are not disrespectful, many Muslims have no problem with them, and we have mechanisms for readers to avoid seeing them, so "it might offend someone" is a bogus argument.

I felt no need to argue the reasons you presented because I don't agree with them. The two reasons I proposed boil down to "are they pertinent and encyclopedic in nature" (see WP:IMAGES) and "do they make the article interesting". To the images here, I would give a resounding "yes". This is my benchmark to weigh the value of any image in any article. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

My point on "art not journalism" wasn't a general one (of course works of art, as in the one's you mention, give a particular perspective). I was pointing out that these ones specifically are highly stylized and it's difficult to actually see what's happening in them. I agree with your other point about "walls of text" - but that's not what I was suggesting. There's no reason to have that - other pictures could be included. Because they don't satisfy any of the three reasons I first mentioned, I'm having difficulty seeing that they add much to the reader's understanding of the subject. DeCausa (talk) 21:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you feel the same way about the depiction of Jesus on the Jesus page? thx1138 (talk) 22:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

No (a point I've already made in my first post). DeCausa (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Is an illustrated article better than a wall of text? Yes. Do these pictures represent events discussed in the text? Yes. Will the article be better without them? No. No reason to remove except "I dont like" IdreamofJeanie (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but that seems to ignore (or suggest you haven't read) the above points. DeCausa (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I have read and do not agree with to your arguments. Illustrated articles are better than non-illustrated articles, these illustrationas are relevant, and removing them does not improve the article. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 23:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

But I didn't say that this article shouldn't have illustrations. I agree illustrated articles are better than non-illustrated. DeCausa (talk) 23:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that everyone move away from the horse. It's dead, and it's not rising again. We have a big blurb at the top of the page and a separate talk page for this anyway. OhNoitsJamie 23:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I've gone through the archives on the image question and cannot find where this has been properly discussed. It's all bogged down in Islamic view v Notcensored (both of which are irrelevant to the point I'm raising). I've also asked anyone involved at the time where in the archive this is discussed - no one has. If you know, point it out. The blurb at the top also doesn't address the point I'm raising. DeCausa (talk) 23:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I already addressed it, but not directly. Pardon me for speaking in a roundabout way. I contend that the illustrations add exactly as much to this article as the illustrations on Jesus add to that article. This is an article about Mohamed. The images in this article are images of Mohamed created by Muslims, just as the images in the Jesus article are images of Jesus created by Christians. The images don't tell us anything about the men themselves, but they do tell us something about the people who created them. thx1138 (talk) 00:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Based on the reliable source we have, 3 or 4 of the images in this article are not known to have been drawn by Muslims. It is disputed, and the article as it stands gives the wrong impression. Wiqi55 (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

But this is EXACTLY my point of concern. What you say is correct about Jesus. That is a culturally relevant image, reflective of a widespread Christian view. The paintings of Muhammad are rare examples of depictions of him reflective of only a very narrow cultural background (Ilkhanid/Ottoman - and then only a sub-strain within those cultures). DeCausa (talk) 07:35, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

this page is rife with wp:IDHT, isn't it? Just in the spirit of fun, allow me to demolish your arguments:

• Many images on wikipedia contribute meaningful information to articles that cannot be adequately captured in words: Images of people show their likeness; images of events give a sense of realism; images of objects help identify them and show functional relationships. none of these points apply to images of Muhammed, since no one knows what he looks like and depictions of the events of his life are at best fanciful.
  • images of Muhammed have no intrinsic encyclopedic value, like the way an image of a corkscrew or a photo of Hiroshima after the bombing do - these pictures are just aesthetic additions.
• The images of Jesus on the Jesus article are perfectly fine because no one really cares whether one makes an image of Jesus. Images of Muhammed, by contrast, are objectionable to may people.
• One can easily find images to break up the text and beautify this page that do not feature the prophet, and the page will not suffer any loss of information or attractiveness.

In other words, these images are not needed, other images could be easily found that would fulfill their beautification function perfectly well, and people are offended by them - so why are we keeping them on the article? the only conceivable reason to keep them on the article is so that some editors can get their rocks off by pissing off Muslim readers - pure crapulence. no need to say more on the issue. --Ludwigs2 01:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The consensus of the editors is basically the exact opposite of what you said. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

consensus is not majority rule, and one can never use consensus to overturn common sense and reason. If you think that any of my reasoning is wrong, say why you think it's wrong. But if your entire argument is that 'most people' think differently, well then... I have an earful for you about the way 'most people' think. particularly true on articles like this, where you get lots of people editing hormonally. --Ludwigs2 05:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I distinctly read above "I don't want to get involved in this debate" followed by a rather trollish comment, yet here you are still, fortunately no longer trollish.

I think your reasoning is wrong.

• no one knows what he looks like -- applies to Jesus and most any other historical figure before the age of renaissance painting or photography. So?
• depictions of the events of his life are at best fanciful. As are depictions of events in the lives of Jesus or Moses. The images portray events relevant to the article and described in the article. If an artist felt that an event from Muhammad's life was worthy of portrayal in a painting, that's a rather noteworthy fact considering that so few portrayals of Muhammad exist from those ancient times.
• images of Muhammad have no intrinsic encyclopedic value -- yes, they do. It is valuable to see how Muhammad has been portrayed throughout the ages.
• These pictures are just aesthetic additions. Seems like a case of WP:IDHT on your part; see the discussion above. They serve multiple purposes, one of which is aesthetic.
• The images of Jesus are perfectly fine. Really? Even though they are not accurate portrayals? (Hint: Jesus was likely not caucasian).
• Images of Muhammed... are objectionable to may people. WP:IDHT again? As has been discussed ad nauseam, that is not an argument to remove them.
• One can easily find images to break up the text and beautify this page that do not feature the prophet — perhaps so. And oddly, none have been proposed. The burden is on you to do so, and to demonstrate that the images you select are adequate replacements.

If you want the images removed, please come up with some compelling arguments to remove them. Thus far, I see none. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:51, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I've been thinking about this on and off for a while, and I'm inclined to believe that Ludwigs and DeCause may have a good point here. If these images are not actually the "standard" depiction of Muhammad (and I think it's pretty clear that, at least at present, they're not), and if they only represent a certain historical subset of Islamic "images" of Muhammad, then, in fact, they don't seem to be providing encyclopedic value to this article. Note that I emphasize that last point--it is certainly acceptable for these images to appear elsewhere on Misplaced Pages where appropriate. For instance, the image currently in "Sources for Muhammad's life" by Nakkaş Osman could certainly go into Osman's article, or into the article on the book it's in (Siyer-i Nebi). But what is it doing here? Does it really help the reader understand anything about Muhammad? In a certain sense, we should measure the value pictures by the same standard that we measure pictures of a sexual/nudity nature--are they contributing something necessary to the article, or are they just titillating/provocative? Ohnotitsjamie says that this is a dead horse, but I'm not so sure that it is--I think that DeCausa is right at the very beginning to say that it's not really dead, it's that the argument has been conducted under only 2 very narrow lines that don't even really intersect, and don't get to the heart of the matter--deciding what is most beneficial for an encyclopedic treatment of this subject. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

@ Qwyrxian: yes, that's exactly the point. it's reasonably clear to me that these images are kept on this page mostly because they are provocative than because of any particular value they have

@ Amatulić: You've managed to miss my main points. to repeat:

• The fact that portrayals of Jesus are inaccurate is of no consequence, because there is no significant Christian belief that prohibits depicting Jesus. Christians don't care.
• The fact that many Muslims don't mind depictions of Muhammed is of no consequence, because there are significant Muslim sects that find it deeply offensive. Some Muslims clearly do care. You may not care that they care, but that lack of sensitivity is not something that the project should support or indulge.

The burden is on you to show that these images are needed on the article. I can remove these images at any time simply on the grounds that they are offensive to some people and not required for any particular encyclopedic purpose; I simply don't want the headache of dealing with the freak-out that would cause right at the moment. You have to show that they have a needed encyclopedic purpose - that the images inform in some way that is not feasible by other means - otherwise their noted offensiveness dictates they should be removed. Breaking up text is not informative; inaccurate illustration of historical events explained in text is not informative; color and spacing are not informative. Give a reason to keep these images that justifies pissing off hundreds of thousands of Muslims; if you can't, the pictures go (because there's no sense pissing off hundreds of thousands of people for no good reason).

And please don't pull that NOTCENSORED literalism on me - I have no problem IARing NOTCENSORED when I see people applying it just because they want to use Misplaced Pages to annoy people. --Ludwigs2 07:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with Ludwigs2, that's not why I'm questioning the images. I think offence given to Muslims is not relevant (with one minor exception). I opened this thread and gave it this heading specifically so as not to re-hash Muslim sensitivity v. Notcensored. I'm looking at this from solely the point of view of how you would judge any images in a WP article. What concerns me is they tick none of the usual criteria for choosing images (with the possible exception of the Russian painting):

• They don't represent accurate depictions of Muhammad (obviously)
• They don't represent an informative representation of what the events or Muhammad might have looked like (with the exception of the Russian painting) because they are in an Ilkhanid/Ottoman setting not 7th century Arabia
• They don't illustrate events in the text effectively, with the exception of the Russian painting; because of the stylistic nature of the depictions it's difficult to actually see what's happening in them
• They don't represent a culturally relevant representation of Muhammad (The "Jesus argument"). These are rare examples of depictions from a very narrow cultural source. It's as if all the images of Jesus in the Jesus article were taken from Inuit art. The equivalent of the mainstream representations of Jesus used in that article is the various calligraphy represenations of Muhammad. (Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the illustrations be replaced just by calligraphy.) Perhaps if only one of the Ilkhanid/Ottoman pictures were present this argument would be of less concern.
• They are decorative - but to my mind this is the one minor instance when offence should be taken into account, since this reason is trivial givenn that other images can be chosen to fulfil the decorative requirement.

I agree very much with the excellent points made by Qwyrxian. There are other articles where these images could well be included. DeCausa (talk) 08:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. A good example of my point is found in two of the pictures: Muhammad at the Ka'aba and the Destruction of the Idols. As far as the latter is concerned, I personally can't make any sense of it. What is going on? You can't see anything. How does this add anything to the article? As far as the former picture is concerned, it would be much more interesting and informative to see a photograph of the Ka'aba. You don't get any sense of what the Ka'aba is, let alone any sense of Muhammad, from the picture. On the other hand, there may be a case for leaving in the picture of Gabriel and Muhammad because it does arguably clearly illustrate an important event in his life. Perhaps that would be the one Ilkhanis picture to stay. DeCausa (talk) 13:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

DeCausa, I don't think we're disagreeing that much, I just tend to be a bit salty in discussions like this (personality flaw, probably). At any rate, I think we've made good cases, so the next step is to remove the images (possibly replacing them with different images, as appropriate), and let people present arguments for their reinclusion. --Ludwigs2 17:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's likely to go far. I suspect it would be immediately reverted and per WP:BRD it would just go back to where we are now. It may be better to make a proposal here identifying what's wrong with each pic (or not) and propose an alternative where necessary. Fundamentally, the rationale for each individual picture is weak and difficult to defend on a pic-by-pic basis. DeCausa (talk) 21:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I expect you're right, but sometimes one needs to be BOLD and see what the result is, rather than making assumption. I'll look into the matter now. --Ludwigs2 23:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I have re-reverted the removal of this conversation. This is not the same conversation that perpetually goes on that other page--this is not saying "REMOVE ALL THE PICTURES"; rather, it's saying "these specific pictures are bad." This discussion must be carried out here, as it is not within the scope of that other page. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

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