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Revision as of 00:21, 5 March 2006

The cunning old man who calls himself Siddhanath Gurunath is a well-known confidence artist in India who is absolutely ignorant of Kriya Yoga as taught by Babaji to Lahiri Mahasaya. He is busted. If we allow this spiritual criminal to spread his Wings (pardon the pun) in here then anyone, even a complete lunatic confined in a mental assylum, can claim to have met Babaji and have his accounts written here. We should only include the words of relevant people. If this cunning old man (I don't even want to call him Gurunath because that isn't his real name) and his clone Dan are that desperate to promote their cult together with their book that nobody wants to buy then I suggest that they create another page for their hallucinated Shiv Gorakshanath Babaji because neither the Kriya Yogis from the Lineage of Lahiri Mahasaya nor the Sanatan Dharma scholars and historians would agree that Babaji, the Guru of Lahiri Mahasaya (not of Guru nut) and Goraksha were the same person.

I also suggest that disinterested parties make a research about the character of this guy for future contributions.

By adding large volumes of content to this page for the sole purpose of promoting your book and teacher, you're using Wiki as a promotional site. More than half of this page is your promotional material, even though your guru lineage is just one of several that can be legitimately included here. While appropriate to mention the different Babaji teachers in context, your continued spamming of this page goes against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. Please edit your book promotion excerpt down to appropriate size (I'll do it for you if you don't), and show equal respect for all of the different Babaji teachers and promoters. And please read other suggestions below, including the creation of your own Siddhanath or Wings of Freedom page that could be lined to from here.

Priyanath 16:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Priyanath

Note that user Hamsacharya Dan tried to block others from editing this page by adding his own tags. It was rectified by Wiki personnel, with the following comment:

":This page isn't protected. Once again, someone has placed a protect tag on an article who doesn't have the ability to actually protect it. · Katefan0/poll 22:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)"

Priyanath 02:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Priyanath

Explanation of recent back and forth edits:

There are many opposing claims about Babaji. Yogananda's is considered, almost universally, to be the most authoritative version, since he introduced Babaji to the world in his Autobiography. Every spiritual teacher with claims to Babaji since then has done so in response, and context, to Yogananda and his Autobiography of a Yogi. The Mahavatar Babaji page here should reflect that consensus of the Kriya world.

Because of so many opposing claims about Babaji, it's important to take a Neutral Point of View (POV), and include both sides of the opposing claims. Thus the heading 'Claims About Mahavatar Babaji Since the Publication of Autobiography of a Yogi'.

Three of the four groups with claims here contradict each other, and/or Yogananda. Govindan claims a birthdate for Babaji. Guru Siddhanath claims that Babaji has existed from the beginning of creation. Yogananda, said "No limiting facts about Babaji’s family or birthplace, dear to the annalist’s heart, have ever been discovered." The Haidhakan camp claims that their young Guru who died at a young age was the immortal Babaji, whereas Babaji promised in the Autobiography of a Yogi that he would never leave the body.

The Guru Siddhanath group also claims that 'Babaji is ever the same. He was never born and therefore can never die", yet in the Autobiography of a Yogi Babaji was ready to shed his body, and said he was just about to do so, apparently contradicting the Siddhanath 'Babaji'.

Instead of spam-flooding this page with lengthy claims about Babaji from Guru Siddanath, it would be far more appropriate to create a separate page with lengthy excerpts from his book, and link to it from this Babaji page.

Priyanath 20:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)Priyanath

We should concentrate on writing about the Baba. Priyanath is right. --Bhadani 16:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding additions from Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath's literature

Hello Mr. Priyanath,

Thank you for opening up for discussion. Yes I agree, as I have said on Kriya Yoga talk page, that Yogananda's book is the landmark text, and presumably the first english written text about Babaji. I also agree that most English writing since its publication are, in effect, in response to the writings by Yogananda or in response to claims by others. Also, it is true, it is impossible to tell what is factual and what is false. I have included the text from Yogiraj's book because nobody has written at such length and with such veracity, with historical references that have context as well as archeological correlates (which I go into more below), about the nature and essence of Mahavatar Babaji. Not even Yogananda wrote as lucidy about Babaji as Gurunath.

Also, regarding Babaji shedding bodies vs. being ever the same - you must understand what that means: If you'd taken the time to read Gurunath's text, you would see that Babaji has taken many forms over the past several thousand years - Gorakshanath, Kal Agni Nath, Shiva Nagaraj (although not the Babaji Nagaraj of Govindan). This does not mean that he is not ever the same - if you read the section in Yogananda's book about Anandamoyi Ma, you will see that she has also said that she is ever the same, and yet has taken birth, has been a small child, and grown into an adult woman, and then has passed on. Hence, "being ever the same" refers to something deeper than physical garments that one takes on from time to time.

Evidences: Note the numerous ancient temples throughout India that worship Adinath and Gorakshanath - they are abundant. There are no temples to worship a South Indian saint named Babaji Nagraj, nor this history about him. Further note all the texts that Gorakshanath is credited for - including Hatha Yoga, Goraksha Shatak, and many many more. In India, this knowledge is much more well known - and it is widely accepted. Please do your homework before erasing something that you don't understand. I repeat, Yogananda, though a very worthy source or information, is not the only source, nor is it the only accepted source. In India, there are many ancient texts that are used by Kriya yogis.

I am not here to promote Yogiraj Gurunath, I'm here to present his contribution to the yogic treasury of knowledge - which is a unmitigatingly substantial contribution. At first I connected his name to his website, because that's what other organizations had done, and I was not aware of the wikipedia syntax, but have since removed such links and have created a Yogiraj page, DESPITE THE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS STILL HAVING LINKS TO THEIR OWN WEBSITES, WHICH I HAVE NOT ALTERED. If you had actually looked at my postings, you would have seen that - it was done several days ago.

Finally, I should contest the claim that I have made the post lengthy in order to promote Yogiraj. If you notice, Yogiraj's name was only mentioned once, in order to reference the source of the ensuing text. The lengthiness of the post is necessary in order to elucidate in full the origins and nature of Babaji. If you did a thorough analysis of the scriptures, you would see that they are fully in concert with Yogiraj's information. As I've said, nobody has ever painted such a complete picture of Babaji - even Yogananda admitted that he knew little. Yogiraj's claims are fully in concordance with whatever Yogananda has written, and they further elucidate Babaji. Yogiraj spent his early life in the Himalayas amongst the lofty beings that are called the Hamsas and that Naths. You must understand that these are not castes - Hamsa is the Hongsa of Yogananda - it is the name for the lofty souls. A Nath is the same - it means Lord of Irradiant Splendor. The Naths and the Hamsas are one and the same - Yogananda was a lofty Param Hamsa, Sri Yukteswar was born Priya Nath Karar. Adi Nath means First Yogi, First Lord. Today there are yogis who call themselves nath yogis of such or such caste, but the 9 NavNaths are ancient, as are the 84 MahaSiddhas - and are written about in numerous ancient texts. Please understand that there is much much more to the picture than Yogananda put to paper at the time, and that the excerpt from Wings to Freedom does not promote Gurunath more than to credit him for his writing. In actuality, the excerpt serves to elaborate the treasury of knowledge on Misplaced Pages about this Being. Hamsacharya dan 02:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. I agree that Siddhanath adds to the Babaji lore. As far as its veracity, that's an open question. Obviously some people have a question about the fact that it is one person's word (Siddhanath), and are deleting your overly lengthy posts completely (please note that I reinserted your shorter post and link after someone else deleted it). Just as some people doubt Govindan's versions of the Babaji story. Both Siddhanath's and Govindan's deserve mention, but I personally have my doubts in both cases. But my POV is not important, which is why I resinserted yours, and other's, links that were deleted.

But to make 70% of the Babaji page a long excerpt of lofty language from that book is still entirely inappropriate. The appropriate thing to do is have a short mention, just like all the other groups do. And then have a link to a lengthy Siddhanath or Wings of Freedom page, just like all the other groups do!

Using the approach that you've taken, one could far, far more reasonably put the entire chapter from Autobiography of a Yogi on the Babaji page, along with the other chapter from Autobiography of a Yogi on Babaji, because of the information it contains and it's unquestioned veracity. But instead, a short excerpt and link to the book is the most appropriate thing to do.

As far as all the incarnations of Babaji claimed by Siddhanath - 'babaji' is a common name in India, present and past. I believe that Yogananda knew the 'babaji' lore in India, and would have made mention of that. I also believe that Yogananda had the divine awareness to see these things, and to see the truth. Regardless, that's my opinion only, and doesn't color the fact that lengthy posts of one POV are inappropriate for the Babaji page. A mention and a link to a separate page are right, just as with the other Babaji claimants.

FYI, external links are fine to have in the external links section.

Priyanath 03:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)Priyanath

response

Sir,

Notice that the other Babajis go by the name BABAJI!! None of the past roles of the Mahavatar went by the name Babaji except those noted. Siddhanath is quite aware of who are the individuals that go by the name Babaji and the true esoteric history of the Mahavatar, which has partially be recorded in past texts. Please note that Gurunath has devoted his book, as well as numerous chapters to the truth about the Mahavatar. What has been included here, even the long selection, is but a small section of his writings. Siddhanath's selection certainly deserves to be placed above the "claims," which are sporadic, idiosyncratic, and lack historical correlates. Please do not place it below, as that is an insult to the monumental work that Yogiraj has done in clarifying and elaborating on the Mahavatar's role. I will consent to keep the abridged version of his paraphrase if you do so. Please note that no claims about Babaji are verified, not even those written by Yogananda. Also, Yogananda is not the first Master to write about Babaji. Thus it is out of my deep respect and reverence for Yogananda that I have not moved his excerpt from the introductory segment. In fact I've added to it by inserting Sri Yukteswar's quote, in case you didn't notice.Hamsacharya dan 04:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Siddhanath's selection certainly deserves to be placed above the "claims,""

I disagree. His claims, even though they have historical references, are no more idiosyncratic than the others.

"I will consent to keep the abridged version of his paraphrase if you do so. "

I offer a compromise. Keep the abridged version (which is still longer than the excerpt from Autobiography of a Yogi!, talk about being disrespectful), but put it under Other Claims, where it belongs. In fact, it is a claim that has only come to light since the publication of Autobiography of a Yogi, and it belongs under that heading.

Priyanath 04:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)Priyanath