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Revision as of 23:20, 6 March 2006 editBalagen (talk | contribs)3,047 edits →Mind of the ArbCom about scholar sources - consequences of Zeq's case.← Previous edit Revision as of 04:41, 7 March 2006 edit undoZeq (talk | contribs)10,670 edits →ArbCom rullingNext edit →
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PS I want to add to this a similar question about the news paper Haaretz as Zero removed a quote from an Haaretz article I placed earlier. On edit wars I will not ask this time. It seems Zero is allowed those with impunity. ] 17:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC) PS I want to add to this a similar question about the news paper Haaretz as Zero removed a quote from an Haaretz article I placed earlier. On edit wars I will not ask this time. It seems Zero is allowed those with impunity. ] 17:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Fred, We need an answer. Not giving me an answer that this source is banned I would understand the normal default that it is OK to use this source. I do not see how this source violate Misplaced Pages polcy (it is not a self published book) If anyone has proof that it should not be used it should have been presented to ArbCom and no one did. ] 04:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


==My arbitration case== ==My arbitration case==

Revision as of 04:41, 7 March 2006

My associates and I have installed the GetWiki software at http://www.wikinfo.org, alternative address, http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/. It is hosted by ibiblio.org. The wikidata base dump was not installed. Software has been developed which allows easy importing of Misplaced Pages articles and to date about 30,000 have been imported. Certain policies have been changed from Misplaced Pages although the notion of using American English has been abandoned; International English is used and we are experimenting with articles in French and German. The concept of neutral point of view for each article has been changed to a policy of accepting a cluster of articles with differing points of view. Several policies which have been observed to cause tension on Misplaced Pages have been liberalized. See Wikinfo. Fred Bauder 13:51, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It may be useful when trying to locate information on a book to try the search engine at Redbaud.com

Fred_Bauder (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Material has been removed here and placed in User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 1, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 2, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 3, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 4, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 5, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 6, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 7, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 8, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 9, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 10, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 11, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 12, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 13, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 14, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 15, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 16, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 17, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 18, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 19, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 20, User talk:Fred Bauder/Archive 21.

http://english.people.com.cn/200503/03/eng20050303_175406.html

Notes

Question

I am trying to understand the proposed decision .

Is it acce[ptable or not to:

"It is unacceptable to remove relevant material from an article if its source is a scholarly work by an authority in the field."

If it is acceptable , under what conditions ? If it is not acceptable, does it mean that ANY amount of such material should never be removed ?

How does this new rule in relation to NPOV ?

These are all serious questions as I am trying to understand what are the "terms" of my probation and what excatly did I do wrong (in hope not to return it).

Thank you for clarifying, Zeq 07:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you but I still don't get it

Fred,

This is not meant as any disrespect but i am still trying to understand.

You say:

"What you did wrong is twofold, removing well sourced information and adding information from propagandistic sources. Fred Bauder 16:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)"

I am trying to understand what about the material I removed from Nakba and can such material ever be removed.

The material I removed included:

1. Propeganda material by Hanan Ashrawii ( the text about how Palestinians "were cast aside by history"

2. Quotes of B.G. and Sharet that were put in the article in an attempt to proove a theory that was claimed to be from the scholar Benny Morris (the B.G. quote were from Morris's book) But Morris himself in very specific words said the theory in nakba is not correct. So the quotes, while from a book by Morris should not have been there in the way they were presented and are unrelevant or need to be NPOV (with Morrises own words or with others who have the different POV than Ian and Zero) However, all my attempts to include Morrises own words on the subject were delted by Zero.

So this rulling leavesme mistified:

Under what conditions can a a quote froma scholraly source be completly removed from an article ?

PS

Were did you find me interducing propeganda material is beyond me - unless of course you refer to me finding sources for the claim about the Mufti. (I only found the sources, the quote from the Mufti was there prior to my edits)

Zeq 16:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I now underrstand something

My question to you above still stand but I now understand what you may have based your descision on.

It is these words:

"2) In the article Palestinian exodus edit warring has revolved around two versions: Zeq's version which he claims is "more NPOV"] and an alternative version supported by most other editors. Zeq, while continuing to edit war, comments, "It is time that this edit war will stop and a serious attempt at NPOVing this article will start. see talk". His position on the talk page is set forth at Talk:Palestinian_exodus#Making_this_article_NPOV. The main issue seems to be Zeq's deletion of the "Transfer section", see Talk:Palestinian_exodus#Section_on_the_.27Transfer_principle.27. The material is sourced in Benny Morris, Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisted (2004) ISBN 0521009677, "


I hope it is clear to you that these words are a lie. simple lie but a sophisticated one:

While the material in the "Transfer section" uses B.G. and Sharet quotes from Morris book the section actually include the exact oppostite of what Morris hmslef said on the subject and that is something that the evidence is a ccomplete msreprestantion by saying: "The material is sourced in Benny Morris" - simply not true. Only the words of B.G and Sharet are sourced. The rest of the section is not what is in this book. Zeq 16:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

This is the section - can you read it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/Palestinian_exodus#.22Transfer_principle.22

Nothing in here is actually Morrises scholarly work (The only quotes from his book are speeches of BG and Sharet). In fact, since I do know Morris's work quite weell I can say that this section (as the citaion tags show) is almost completly OR by Zero and Ian. So is this what you base the accusation that I removed "scholraly sources" ?

Zeq 17:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Might be, I'm no expert. Fred Bauder 17:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Fred, please some serious answer. I did not delete scholarly work. Other than deleting these unrelvant quotes I also deleted a pure propeganda by Hanan Ashrawii ( her speech in which she describe the palestinians people were 'cast aside by History' - clearly not "scholarly work" so my question is simple:

Under what condition can such material (like the speeches who source is listed as Morris book) can be deleted ?

(a wider question: Does any quote from any schiolarly source can never be delted from Misplaced Pages ? - what are the conditions that permit removing scholarly work - for example if it is not NPOV or not relevant ?)

You can always ban me or put me on probation because the edit wars (I admited for that) but I think you should look at the sources descision as you are setting a completly new policy based on false accuastions. I really want to understand what I did wrong (and please don't give me the one liner :'removed sourcd material and added propeganda' because you know that this is not true) I am asking that so I can know what not to do next time. Please take me seriously (and If you think the decision is wrong please change it. I will not argue with a ban based on the edit war alone) Zeq 19:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

PS I hope you now realized that this claim "The material is sourced in Benny Morris, Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisted (2004) ISBN 0521009677" is false evidence. If it was true there was already a sourced cited for all those "citation needed tag" that now fill this section. Have you looked at it ? - Most of the section is against Misplaced Pages policy of Original Research - ArbCom should have delt with those who insterted the naterial that now can not be sourced. 

Zeq 19:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

De jure and De facto Nagorno-Karabakh: your help as lawyer needed

Dear Fred,

As a professional lawyer, as well as an admin and a member of Arbitration Committee, I would like to ask for your expert opinion and informal mediation with regard to the Nagorno-Karabakh entry’s intro.

Several Armenian editors (User:Fadix, User:TigranTheGreat and User:Eupator try to remove the mentioning of fact that NK is de jure part of Azerbaijan. User:Grandmaster and I consider this as a blatant POV pushing and denying an obvious fact. This is not a standard situation when “truth lies somewhere in the middle”. I am firmly convinced that this is a deliberate attempt by a group of users to push their POV and deny something which is so obvious and so neutral.

I have just posted a summary of the facts in NK talkpage . Could you please, look at it as well as have a quick glance to the discussions and provide your authoritative opinion about the issue. I very much hope you can bring a stability to this protracted messy discussion over Nagorno-Karabakh being de jure part of Azerbaijan and de facto under Armenian control. --Tabib 06:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Tabib, again, you are very badly placed as someone working with Azerbaijan autorities to accuse anyone of POV pushing in this matter. Also, I don't appreciate you to twist my views. None of the three persons you have refered(including me) have denied that Karabakh is officially recognized as part of Azerbaijan, neither refused this info to be included there. You still keep accusing and implying that we refuse to include the information that is is officially recognized as part of Azerbaijan. What I basically said was that de jure has legal connotations and that Karabakh authorities recognize themselves as de jure independent, which would rander the uses of the term de jure as a position. Also, I already provided at least two article written in French as example to show how the French world cover the issue which is different than the English world. There is hardly anyone refusing the term officialy(including you) and Misplaced Pages is about compromise and consider that not only those you refer have found the term de jure problematic, including two users who were even not involved with this. Fad (ix) 23:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

serious attempt to injure a decent editor by faking his i.d.

Dear Fred,

I just noticed something that makes me quite disturbed. A user named David Ingham has been editing for more than half a year. I just noticed an edit that he appeared to have made to the article on the Copenhagen Interpretation. It looked strange, so I clicked on the link and found that it led to a rather disgusting picture. I then went to his user page and to his contributions and found that he hadn't made that edit--at least not from his regular identity. Someone has created an identity that prints on screen just as his does but has + interspersed in it so that to the computer it looks like a completely different I.D.: David_R._Ingharn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I don't know why Daving might have made this dual identity himself. Whoever linked the disgusting picture should be penalized. To find out what is going on, somebody will probably have to investigate how the alternative identity was set up.

It would be an irrational thing for the real David Ingham to do since nobody is likely to have clicked on that link. (The link is gone now. I just reverted it, but I was sneaky too, trying to let whoever made this mess think he has succeeded. I just noted it in the edit summary as "sp".) It is a devious and malicious thing for somebody else to do because the object was probably to get the real David Ingham in trouble.

I hope you will forward this message to whoever should have received it if you aren't the right person to ask to investigate this matter.

Thanks.

Pat P0M 09:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Weregerbil got sicced onto this vandal somehow. The vandal was doing more than I discovered at 3 a.m. this morning. Lots more. P0M 00:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Talking about "removing sourced content and replacing it with Propeganda sources"

see this edit by zero:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Palestinian_exodus&diff=40564693&oldid=40562639

He did not source it ?

You know why ?

because like much else of his contribution it comes from this source:

http://www.radioislam.org/historia/zionism/zionrac02.html - which is a propeganda source.


If you don't trust me check out Radio Islam.

I again suggest that you stop, look in deapth at what you are doing. The accusations about sources that were presented in evidence are false. What I removed is mostly Zero and Ian OR. Your rulling makes it impossible for anyone to remove <b any sourced content.

As Jay have said quite correctly: "Good in principle, but very easy to game; who decides what material is relevant, and who is a scholarly authority? In non-obvious cases we should try to stick to behavioural issues, they're much easier to judge. Jayjg (talk) 13:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC) "

I suggest you listen to Jay and take another look at the evidence: Did I removed scholarly content or Original research (dotted with quotes of BG speches which gave the source as a scholarly book)



What I did add to {Palestinian exodus]] comes from a scholarly source:

"Benny Morris, in particular, disagrees with the "Master Plan" theory. He writes: 

 + My feeling is that the transfer thinking and near-consensus that emerged in the 1930s and early 1940s was not tantamount to pre-planning and did not issue in the production of a policy or master-plan of expulsion; the Yishuv and its miltary forces did not enter the 1948 War, which was initiated by the Arab side, with a policy or plan for expulsion. (Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, p. 60)  "

But this text was removed by Zero and Ian (because it does not fit their OR POV):

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Palestinian_exodus&diff=36692362&oldid=36688721


You are really making a mistake about sources (but not about Edit wars)

I await your reply after you looked at the edit diff above: "who removed sourced content and replaced with with propeganda sources" ?

was it:

  • Just me ?
  • Just Zero ?
  • Both ?

The evidence is there to see. you just need to look.

Zeq 10:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Dear Fred, Did you look at thios quote by Benny Morris ? Do you understand why, although it is "scholraly source" it was removed by Zero from the article and replaced with Propeganda )from radio Islam web site) ?
  • This is what you accuse me of doing (but I added the scholarly source and removed other propeganda) but here is the evidence that Zero did what you accused me of doing.
  • I repeat my question: Under what conditions can "scholarly work" be deleted. Should I understand that if this is Zero deleting a POV that does not fir his own OR in the article thisis OK ?
  • Surly, you now can see that the whole nakba article is written in a non NPOV fashion and I was only trying to make it NPOV. It is time to get this article re-written or removed completly. It is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages to keep such propeganda on what supposed to be a respectable encyclopedia. Zeq 08:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

CheckUser on possible compromised accounts

Two accounts may have been compromised—or someone is going to a lot of work just to move a few pages around.

User:Jobe6 and User:Naja Haje were both valid contributors in January. They appeared to have taken a wikibreak. This week, they have returned to vandalize Misplaced Pages with page moves. Both accounts were blocked indefinitely.

I am requesting CheckUser on both of these accounts. Did their IP addresses change when they began vandalizing? Do they share an IP address or range? If their IP addresses are the same, are there any other sleeper accounts that need to be watched?

Thank you for your help. —Guanaco 04:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

My final good-byes

Hello Fred Bauder. I came to tell all my friends, yes, that means you, that I am leaving Misplaced Pages. Thank you for being so kind to me during my stay on Misplaced Pages. I hope to speak with you again someday. I mostly considered you a friend based on your high quality of work on vandal fighting and good attitude. And I thank you for your help with Mcfly85. Moe ε 06:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

More trouble from the InghaRN perp?

Back again, sorry.

I just received 2 copies of the following message:


wiki@wikimedia.org wrote:

>> Someone (probably you, from IP address 70.31.244.115) >> requested that we send you a new Misplaced Pages login password for en.wikipedia.org. >> The password for user "?" is now .................. >> You should log in and change your password now.

Could it be that somebody erroneously entered Patrick0Moran thinking it was their own name? (That's a zero in the middle by the way.) Somehow I doubt it.

I think this kind of thing is another reason to make edits possible only to people who register and go through some minimal vetting procedure like mailing their system-generated passwords to the e-mail address they claim is theirs.

There was an edit from a similar IP, 70.56.26.219, just before the Copenhagen_interpretation article was vandalized, and the real David was having a mini edit war with the anon. Seems like an incredibly petty thing to go to war over. And this guy has been around Misplaced Pages or similar Wikis else he would not be so able to game the system. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he has tried an "exploit" against the whole system.

Pat

Violation of probation

User:Ted Wilkes has again violated his probation, although he had been blocked for doing so yesterday. He is still calling me a liar. This is certainly a personal attack. He has deleted some passages concerning Nick Adams's supposed homosexuality and an external link from the Nick Adams page, although he is banned from making any edit related to a person's alleged homosexuality or bisexuality. See and . See also his aggressive behavior on the Talk:Nick Adams page. This is unacceptable. Onefortyone 19:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I have two things to say.

  • While I agree User:Ted Wilkes has violated his ban, Onefortyone is also violating his probation with all these dubious edits to the sexuality section of the article. I humbly suggest that both be given clear warnings to cease and desist from any sort of editing in the article for now and that neither be blocked unless it becomes necessary as a preventative step to enforce the existing ruling (which I strongly disagree with but respect in terms of process).

ZAROVE

I've requested arbitration now. --Michael Snow 19:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

WaterWiki

Not much water under that bridge recently. Did you know that WaterWiki doesn't have its own intro page on the Central Wikicity? Robin Patterson 05:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

KDRGibby breaking parole with impunity

I wish to bring to your attention the recent activities of KDRGibby, who I'm sure you'll remember from this ArbCom case. Since the closure of his case (which resulted in him being put on parole and probation for personal attacks), Gibby has made the following comments on the talk pages of articles on my watchlist. Keep in mind that I have not covered all his contributions; many more personal attacks could exist. What I find amazing is that no admin has yet taken it upon himself to enforce the ArbCom decision and block Gibby (I believe the maximum punishment is in order for such blatant disregard not only for the community, but also for the ArbCom itself):

  • "Bad bad bad electionwood!...you are making the socialist free market conflation mistake! free market limited government advocacy does not mean anarchy! Stop that fallacious assumption please."
  • "the complaint is actually...stupid"
  • "The neutrality complaint is stupid. Nikodemos is simply on a communist hell bent anti libertarian tirade."
  • "Ironically you make the same sophomoric arguement that you complain about. Free markets are only an impossibility if you don't understand what the word means."
  • "I've got a word for you, its BULLSHIT. You are not allowed to do this. You guys make so much shit up all the time to get rid of stuff, its creative, but it really shows you guys are running out of intellectual steam, arguements, and freaking material."
  • "You lefties are so gd amazing! ITS NOT MY POV that is expressed... The section of the article is REPORTING the views of Brink Lindsey of the CATO INSTITUTE. He has a published book which you can read!!! THIS IS NPOV. STOP ABUSING WIKI RULES TO CENSOR MATERIAL YOU DON"T LIKE!"
  • "This is the problem with people like you. Nothing is deleted because I reverted your vandalistic censorship like deletions."
  • Disrupting wikipedia to make a point: (added "only because citing free market economists is obviously pov" in a NPOV tag).
  • "There is no neutrality dispute you are simply ignorant of the meaning of NPOV and neutrality. Reporting what other people think does not violate this. Learn the rule!"
  • "ANd it is, your own ignorance is no excuse however. Citing and reporting an author is not POV. Stop it. Stop the total bullshit!"
  • "Nati, you are making up crap again. You are one of the worst editors here and you have a knack for deleting content you don't like for any reason you can think of."
  • Refusing to keep a NPOV tag on a disputed article: "the tag is evidence once again that only left leaning views are acceptable here. Leftists hate information that contradicts their own poorly held views. The tag does not belong because the criticism section is already NPOV."
  • "Niko just wants to delete Friedman because he conflates Friedman with libertarianism rather than understanding that Friedman is an economist who just so happens to scientifically prove that markets work better than any alternatives and that free markets are the best form of market economies. Thats it. He wants to delete this information because he disagrees with it. BUT REMEMBER NIKO...we are only reporting what Friedman says. But seriously, I think your scared people might start to see how rational his thoughts really are and just might start agreeing."
  • "Don't bitch about cited Friedman and Hayek material you disagree with. You are starting to irritate me with your lazy deletion censorship-like methods."
  • "Its the circus I refer to on my user page. Its also called BS." (referring to the actions of a number of users)
  • "If you are in fact a leftist of some sort, it is very likely you would not understand or want to understand if Friedman himself explained it to you."

Collected by Nikodemos 06:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC).

Serious

Fred,

ArbCom should explain, so that I and others understand what sources can be used and what what can not.

If I have done something (like using a source that should not have been used) I want to know what this source was and what cause you to charterize this source as source that can not be used in wkipedia. Of course such source must be presented agisnst sources used by Zero that you did not rule out (such as Radio Islam)

At the same time, if I removed something that should not have been removed (like a quote from B.G UN speech attributed to Benny Morrises book) I want to know if such quote can never be removed. Off course this must be viewd against direct quote of Benny Morris (the scholarly source) that was removed by Zero but ArbCom ignored that evidence - so when does a quote from a scholrly source can and can not be removed.

You have also never responded to my simple claim that "cherrypicking" quotes from a scholarly source book to argue for a POV (which is the exact opposit of the one mention in the book, in fact one which the book goes to great length to deny ) is IMHO not a proper way to use sources for wikipedia (and therefor i removed this Original research from the article)

Be serious, you have made a rulling that has no possible way of being understood, Jayjg told you about it but yet most arbitors voted for it. Please explain yourself so that I and others would understand. so far it is far from clear. Zeq 13:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

checkuser request

Hi, would it be possible for you to run a checkuser on Nameme (talk · contribs) and see if it matches up with deleted user Get-back-world-respect (talk · contribs)? I have reason to believe that Nameme is really GBWR avoiding a block and making controversial changes through a sock to avoid further warnings. I'm also being harassed on my talk page by the user. I'm not asking that you take any action: if there's any action to be taken I'll bring it up to arbcom or RfC or AN, or something else. But I'd like to know if they're the same person before I take any action that may make me look like a fool. ⇒ SWATJester Aim Fire!

Good sources

I now put back the material I earlier deleted by mistake . -- Heptor talk 12:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


This muteded to an article-related discussion, so I took the liberty to put it on Talk:1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Good_Sources. Hope it is OK with you, and that you will continue to participate. -- Heptor talk 23:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

More on Mcfly85

Could I ask you to please run a CheckUser on the following users? Since we know 63.18. is the range of Mcfly85, we already know the IP addresses are him (but I'm listing just because they are recent).

I also have a question. If we blocked the range of Mcfly85, then why can he still edit under that IP range? Moe ε 23:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The block is working, if it is the same user, he's using a different provider. Fred Bauder 02:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there really anything we can do to keep him from intruding on Misplaced Pages. Moe ε 04:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Zero is edit warring.....Again

Zeri is edit warring again. This is what one editor had to say about the propeganda sources he is using:

ArbCom should have acted in a more equal way and you can still fix it before closing the arbitration. Zeq 05:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

We are going to close the case. It was mostly about your behavior. If Zero turns out to be a problem, perhaps another case may address his problems. 13:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The case was about an edit war that had two sides. You decided to ignore one side. Are we "friends" again ?
And I still need clarification about sources (which you also ignored). Zeq 16:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom related issue

There's one or two Lightbringer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (more recently Basil_Rathbone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for purposes of checkability) socks causing problems on Freemasonry and List of Anti-Masons in particular. Anderson12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted material twice to the talk page that he would not know about unless he was Basil/LB, as Basil posted it and it was moved. Anderson accused me of being a sock of a user he had never talked to User:Grye, as when he posted the sock template on my page, Grye seemed to be inactive (and was therefore not included on the mediation request for Jahbulon).

WMMrgn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ("William Morgan") is trying to create a list of Anti-Masons, and somehow the article survived AfD, but his claims were inaccurate, shown to be such on the Talk Page, and he did not respond to said claims except to claim tha tPoe was an anti-Mason based on a webpage about US Presidents suspected to be Masons.

I have posted on ANI, VIP, AIV, and RFCU, and nothing has happened. I have asked various admins to intercede, and nothing has happened. Who do you think is empowered when socks go unpunished and can continue to harass people and disrupt pages? It's certainly not the regular editors.

So, what have I got for options besides going through an RFAr that really doesn't need to be done, as it's already been decided by a prior decision? MSJapan (talk · contribs) 16:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

sockpupet

this user is clearly a sockpupet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Pierremenard&diff=prev&oldid=38421850

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A68.219.203.209

he has been blocked before on 3RR. use multiple IP addresses all pointing to Atlanta Ga. .

Any idea ? Zeq 19:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom rulling

Did ArbCom rulled that this source is not compatiable with Misplaced Pages sources policy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093614601X/qid=1141647642/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-9373713-6436708?n=283155

Leonard J. Davis and M. Decter, Eds., Myths and facts: A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Washington DC: Near East Report, 1982  ?

Thanks for clarification. Zeq 12:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it published by the Israeli government or an organization closely affiliated with the government? Fred Bauder 13:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed it is: American Israel Public Affairs Committee. --Ian Pitchford 13:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Myths and Facts has been a standard "how to answer critics of Israel" handbook at least since the early 1960s. From 1964 until sometime in the 1990s it was published by Near East Report, which is a publishing imprint of AIPAC. After that, the publisher has been the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise, whose description of themselves reads like a carbon-copy of AIPAC's but I don't know exactly what their relationship is. The editor is Mitchell Bard, who was previously the editor of Near East Report, so nothing has really changed. I have never seen Myths and Facts cited as a source by a professional historian. --Zero 13:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
My question was to Fred, and it was a very specific one:
  • "Did ArbCom rulled that this source is not compatiable with Misplaced Pages sources policy" ?
If ArbCom rulled that I want to see it in writing. If not, I want to use it as source.
On a different level let me add that "affiliation with the Israeli govermet" is not a crime or something that discredit any source. Even being a memeber of a Zionost organization is not something (as far as I know) that cause someone to become a non usefull source. What bother in that question is again the clear bias. Clearly many many Palestinian organizations are engaged in propeganda but are still used as sources in Misplaced Pages. So the question was and still is:
  • "Did ArbCom rulled that this source is not compatiable with Misplaced Pages sources policy" ?

Thank You, Zeq 17:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Why would anyone elect to use material from a non-academic organisation with a strong political agenda rather than a scholarly source? --Ian Pitchford 17:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not debating this with Ian here. I want to know what ArbCom rulled on this source. Zeq 18:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

PS I want to add to this a similar question about the news paper Haaretz as Zero removed a quote from an Haaretz article I placed earlier. On edit wars I will not ask this time. It seems Zero is allowed those with impunity. Zeq 17:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Fred, We need an answer. Not giving me an answer that this source is banned I would understand the normal default that it is OK to use this source. I do not see how this source violate Misplaced Pages polcy (it is not a self published book) If anyone has proof that it should not be used it should have been presented to ArbCom and no one did. Zeq 04:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

My arbitration case

Fred, I have some concerns about the remedies that are currently being proposed in my Arbcom case (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway/Proposed decision). The proposed remedy that I find most problematic (put forth by User:Dmcdevit) reads: "Crotalus horridus is prohibited from creating or editing userboxes (either templatized or hard-coded into a userpage". The problem I have with this is that I have about a dozen userboxes, and this would heavily restrict my ability to edit my own user page. No one has ever claimed that my user page was disruptive - see User:Crotalus horridus - none of the controversial user boxes (political, religious, etc.) are there, nor is anything else that violates Misplaced Pages policy. I ask that this remedy either be voted down or modified so that it doesn't impact me in this manner.

I also have problems with the second remedy, "Crotalus horridus is placed indefinitely on Misplaced Pages:Probation." This simply isn't justified based on the evidence. It should be noted that the other party to arbitration, User:Tony Sidaway, has stated that he feels that these remedies are unnecessary . I'm also concerned that these findings against me, as the plaintiff, will have a chilling effect on individuals who want to bring well-founded arbitration cases in the future, since no editor is perfect and almost anyone has some edits that could be construed as disruptive or as violating Misplaced Pages policy.

I'd appreciate if you could take these concerns into consideration when casting your vote on the arbitration case. Thank you in advance for your time. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 02:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages: Requests for arbitration

I tried to go to the RfAr page from my watch list entry. I get a message saying that it does not exist. Is there some weird technical problem? Does the ArbCom need to request Developer help in restoring the RfAr page? Robert McClenon 23:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem resolved, more or less. I was not able to view the page from the watch list, but I was able to view the history. I edited the most recent copy of the page from the history and saved it. I think that the RfAr page is as it should be. You might want to have a clerk check it to ensure that nothing is wrong with it. Robert McClenon 23:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Christophe Greffe 23:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Mind of the ArbCom about scholar sources - consequences of Zeq's case.

Hello Fred.

I am very satisfied by the final issue of the case with Zeq but I am a little bit disappointed that due to the climate the discussion the heart of the matter has not been discussed. Could you, yourself or ask the ArbCom to vote, precise if the way the following is presented is neutral, scholar and documented enough. Thank you very much :


1. In her book « Eichmann in Jerusalem », Hannah Arendt who was Professor at Princeton University writes : « The Grand Mufti's connections with the Nazis during the war were not secret; he had hoped they would help him in the implementation of some final solution in the Near East »

2. In « The Grand Mufti », a biography that is considered paradoxically « as rehabilitating him in emphasing his contribution to the palestinian cause » , historian Zvi Elpeleg writes: « His many comments show that he was not only delighted that Jews were prevented from emigrating to Palestine, but was very pleased by the Nazi’s final solution. »

3. In an interview granted to Haaretz, Dr Walter Reich, Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Professor of International Affairs, Ethics and Human Behavior , reports that « In 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, met with a number of Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, hoping to get them to side with the Arab cause and even to extend anti-Jewish measures to the Jews in Palestine. In his meeting with Hitler in November 1941, al-Husseini obtained the statement from Hitler that "Germany's objective ...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere." The phrase used by Hitler in this conversation, "Vernichtung des...Judentums," is one that was used in connection with the Holocaust. Moreover, al-Husseini worked to stop the rescue of Jews, engaged in broadcasts for the Germans, and in 1943 helped organize a Bosnian Muslim division of the Waffen SS that was implicated in atrocities against Jews, Serbs and others in the Balkans. »

4. On the website of Simon Wiesenthal Center , one can read : « Hajj Amin Al Husseini (1895-1974) was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and important Arab leader. He supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews. He visited numerous death camps encouraged Hitler do the extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine. »

5. In an article published in New York Times, journalist Edwin Black, author of « IBM and the Holocaust » , writes in reporting events of 1941 : « His venomous rhetoric filled the newspapers and radio broadcasts in Tehran. The mufti was a vocal opponent of allowing Jewish refugees to be transported or ransomed into Jewish Palestine. Instead, he wanted them shipped to the gas chambers of Poland. »

6. In his book « Mufti of Jerusalem », Moshe Pearlman, historian close to Ben Gurion writes : «Arabs...were called upon, in the name of the Koran and the honour of Islam, to sabotage the oil pipelines, blow up bridges and roads along British lines of communications, kill British troops, destroy their dumps and supplies, mislead them by false information, withhold their support. The exhortations usually included the suggestion that they could save their souls by massacring the Jewish infidels in their midst.... »

7. In her controversed book « From Time Immemorial : the origin of the Arab Jewish conflict over Palestine », Joan Peters, reports that « In 1940, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy. »

8. In his book « The Gramsi Factor », Chuck Morse, journalist and Massachusetts candidate for US Congress writes : « On 1 March 1944, in a radio Broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated : "Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them »

9. In « Israel, Islam and the church », Paul Carlson, who taught Scripture classes on Old and New Testaments, , refering to Michael Bar Zohar writes : « Blood was what the Mufti demanded in his speeches broadcast from Cairo... (…) And no sooner had the United Nations announced their decision that the Jihad started. The outcome was not difficult to see with 40 millions Arabs fighting against 650,000 Jews. »

Notes and references

  1. ^ « Eichmann in Jerusalem », Hannah Arendt, p.13
  2. Free Traduction from Eric Rouleau, Le Monde Diplomatique, août 1988
  3. « The Grand Mufti », Zvi Elpeleg, p.73
  4. Biography of Walter Reich
  5. Interview of Walter Reich by journalist Schmuel Rosner, Haaretz US correspondent
  6. Simon Wiesenthal Center website refers Museum of Tolerance as a SWC family website
  7. Comments about Haj Amin al Husseini from Simon Wiesenthal Centre website
  8. See book's website
  9. « Denial of Holocaust nothing new in Iran. Ties to Hitler let to plots against British and Jews », Edwin Black, San Francisco Chronicle, 6 january 2006
  10. « Ben Gurion Looks Back in Talks with Moshe Pearlman, David Ben Gourion », New York, Schocken Books, 1965
  11. « Mufti Of Jerusalem », Pearlman quoted by Ronald J. Rychlak in Hitler’s Mufti : The Dark Legacy of Haj Amin al-Husseini
  12. Book is controversed by Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein because it defends the thesis that Palestine was depopulated before the arrival of Zionist immigrants
  13. « From Time Immemorial », Joan Peters quoted by Joseph Farah in Arafat and the Big Lie
  14. See his website
  15. « The Gramsi Factor », Chuck Morse, p.114,
  16. See his biography
  17. « Israel, Islam and the church », Paul Carlson, p 211

Christophe Greffe 23:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)