Misplaced Pages

• Doncram has rejected suggestions of developing in his userspace in the discussion at User_talk:Orlady. - Sitush (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support topic ban based on new evidence (struck through my vote before.) Let me make this very clear; my support of the topic ban is unrelated to the creation of the stubs per se, and everything to do with doncram's interaction style and apparent WP:OWN attitude towards these stubs. When people do try to improve his stubs, he throws what can only be described as a fit. That is unacceptable, and clearly the sign of someone that needs a break. --Jayron32 21:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The mass creation of stubs and substubs (especially when they're completely unsourced, like this one and the mass of similar ones that were created on monastic foundations in Britain) is something that has irked me for a long time, without my saying anything. I agree wholeheartedly with LessHeard vanU's comments above; it's time for this activity to be explicitly discouraged. Deor (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. That stub was of no use whatsoever; it was not so hard to write a rudimentary article. Mathsci (talk) 00:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)noting that this stub on an English monastic community was not created by doncram

I have no association with either of those articles, for English places. I am aware that for historic sites in England, usually only Grade II+ listed buildings are deemed by British editors to be usually Misplaced Pages-notable. And that supporting documents for them are not regularly available. The U.S. NRHP-listed places in North Dakota are different: there are usually full NRHP nomination documents available online in fact. The NRHP docs are often reliable good sources written by architectural historians, include multiple other sources, and have passed through multiple layers of review. It's out of my area and I wouldn't want to go against the current views of British historic sites editors without understanding more, but I would probably not support wholesale stubbing of articles like the British one you refer to (again not started by me), if there were not good sources likely available for further development. (Relatedly, see Talk:Order of Women Freemasons#Merge request for my position against split/separate existence of a stub article that involved material by me, whose split and separate existence was/is supported by editor SarekOfVulcan, contrary to at least one British editor's preferences.) --doncram 11:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support, as per the arguments above. For those suggesting we just "fix it," please tell us how to fix 10,000+ stubs of this sort. Bms4880 (talk) 21:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

  How do you do 10,000? You do it one-at-a-time, slowly and patiently. Bear in mind that according to the Misplaced Pages vision, those articles would eventually each be created anyway. What's the difference? ╟─TreasuryTag►presiding officer─╢ 22:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

  Unfortunately for that line of thought, WP:DEADLINE cuts both ways. From "View one": "Misplaced Pages is not Wikinews and has no need to scoop anyone. Turn this into a strength by working on your article in your userspace or scratchpad until you have the best possible article, fully referenced, a masterpiece of neutrality." Just as there is no deadline for improvement, there is no deadline for these articles to be created, either. In my opinion, it's better that someone who is willing to put time and effort into creating a quality article creates the article, rather than the user in question's blunderbuss approach. As has been brought up by Orlady, Doncram actually takes offence to editors who attempt to fix his half-assed sub-stubs "one-at-a-time, slowly and patiently" into something that looks remotely presentable. Defend that. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

NRHP stubs break 2

• Support, though it's pretty pointless for me to do so. I've told Doncram and other NRHP editors repeatedly about how these sub-stub size articles are embarrassing for Misplaced Pages. I've encouraged him to actually read the reference material and explain why the subject is notable. Take a look at St. John's Block Commercial Exchange with phrases like, "The listing is described in its North Dakota Cultural Resources Survey document," with a reference of, "___ (, 19). "NRHP Inventory-Nomination: St. John's Block Commercial Exchange". National Park Service. http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/82001338.pdf. and Accompanying ____ photos, exterior and interior, from 19___ (see photo captions page __ of text document)" This indicates that Doncram hasn't even read the document. (It's four pages, written in 1981, with one postage-stamp sized photo, and there's no photo captions page.) There's also this initial revision of Art Troutner Houses Historic District which gives us the knowledge that, "The houses are, indisputably, houses. At least one looks like an A-frame. At least one has a carport."

I've voiced my objection to sub-stub articles like this over and over again, and I've pointed out that creating a bunch of these stubs leaves a lot of work behind for other Misplaced Pages editors to clean up. My complaints have fallen on deaf ears. I've largely given up on the concept, which is why I think my support for this motion is pretty much pointless.

By the way, under these standards, I probably could have written Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Depot Freight House and Train Shed to say, "The CMStP&P Depot in downtown Minneapolis is a train station that, indisputably, had freight trains stopping there. It was built or otherwise expanded or something was done to it in 1879 and has Renaissance and Italianate architecture." I could have saved myself some time and not had to buy books about railroads in Minneapolis. --Elkman 21:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• Here's another piece of brilliant prose at Pierce County Courthouse (Wisconsin): "Pierce County Courthouse in Ellsworth, Wisconsin is a building." No kidding! I now feel enlightened. This sub-stub article has existed on Misplaced Pages since September 2008, and nobody has come back to indicate what kind of building it is, what its function is, or whether you can get married by a justice of the peace there. --Elkman 22:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• I've expanded the article slightly. Nyttend (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support. How long did that take? Less than three years? Thought so. I'm pretty sure no one here would argue against Doncram creating a stub of this quality; why is it so hard to take 15 minutes to do a quick Google search or look through an NRHP nomination form. That was, in fact, part of the loose consensus gathered at WT:NRHP a while back.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

About Pierce County Courthouse, as indicated in my edit summary creating that Wisconsin article, I created it to defend the disambiguation page Pierce County Courthouse, mediating between determined WikiProject Disambiguation editors and determined NRHP editors. The disambiguation page was needed to resolve article name conflicts. The only workable solution as of a few years ago, was to create at least one article, against preference of some NRHP editors including Elkman, but meeting demand of Disambiguation-focused editors. It happens I have been the main developer of disambiguation covering NRHP-listed places: My talk page displays 0 articles in Category:NRHP dab needing cleanup out of 10 articles in Category:Disambig-Class National Register of Historic Places articles overall, which I maintain. (And I am the sole signed-up participant in this NRHP dab cleanup drive, though User:Sanfranman59 actually helps.) Since then, there has been recognition by some Disambiguation editors that a disambiguation page can exist with all redlink entries (but with properly formed supporting bluelinks), in part given clear support for the practice by a German wikipedia editor. At this point, I would not now create the stub article, if i was just creating the disambiguation page. It was required, then, to stub one, and at random i picked the Wisconsin one. I am sorry no one chose to develop the article further, sooner. --doncram 11:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: the German wikipedia version of Pierce County Courthouse disambiguation page contains all redlinks currently, with no supporting bluelinks, and would not be accepted by English Misplaced Pages disambiguation editors. When I developed the english language dab page, it was required that a stub be created for at least one article covered. Now, though there are occasional disagreements, it suffices to have supporting bluelinks for each redlink entry. --doncram 12:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Is this not approaching the entire concept of disambiguation from the wrong end? As I read WP:Disambiguation, the purpose of the pages is to disambig articles rather than to disambig all possible uses of a name etc. You are creating articles in order to justify the disambig page. Am I misreading? - Sitush (talk) 12:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Your first reaction is like many others: that disambiguation is to distinguish among existing articles only. So all redlink entries should be deleted? Many have started ahead deleting them. Many have started deleting any dab page that has all redlinks (whether or not there are supporting bluelinks establishing context and notability of the topic). Many have started to redirect dab pages that have just one bluelink. There are, over time, dozens of persons, some quite determined, who start to tear down disambiguation that I have set up. It takes time to convince the new arrivals that in fact the dab pages comply with policy (and it also takes a lot of time to get the Disambiguation policy updated for some matters). The Disambiguation policy is about topics, and Misplaced Pages-notable topics need disambiguation. Given a system of 85,000 NRHP-listed places in lists, with many sharing the same name, it is necessary to resolve article name conflicts so editors can proceed, and so that readers can discover whether a local NRHP they are looking for has an article or not. See User:Doncram/NRHP disambiguation for some reading, not recently updated. One pivotal past discussion with dab-focused editors was what is wp:NRHP doing wrong RE disambiguation? in 2008.

Dealing with the Disambiguation editors in 2008, negotiating for the NRHP editors, the best I could do was to get consensus that a dab page could exist if at least one article existed. So, I created a stub article each time necessary, probably a few hundred. It had to be done. I worked at getting the policy changed, because NRHP editors like Elkman and Dudemanfellabra really disliked the stub articles, but it took a year or two or more to do so. Meanwhile I gave courtesy notice to Elkman if I created a stub in Minnesota and I gave courtesy notice to User:Niagara if I created a stub in Pennsylvania, as they preferred to be notified and would improve them. Finally sometime I completed out the creation of all dab pages needed for 2 or more NRHP places of the same name; there are 10 articles with one or more NRHP entries in Category:Disambig-Class National Register of Historic Places articles now.

Sitush, would you have been the type of editor seeking to remove the redlinks, or would you have been on NRHP editors' side that the disambiguation is needed but a stub for one should not have to be created? --doncram 22:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as saying that Doncram's approach to disambiguation is entirely wrong (I've created several articles for purposes of disambiguation -- typically after discovering situations of mistaken identity in the destinations of links, and most often for people of the same name), but it does seem to be a case of misplaced priorities ("the tail is wagging the dog," instead of the other way around). Doncram has become single-minded in his focus on disambiguation, to the point that he loses track of the main point of creating content. Another example of what I perceive to be inappropriate emphasis on disambiguation over content is displayed at Talk:Old Town (Franklin, Tennessee), related to an article over which Doncram has repeatedly asserted ownership and where he maintains (among other things) that an prehistoric Indian mound complex known as "Old Town" and a 19th-century house built on top of the Indian mounds and also called "Old Town" are actually unrelated topics with the same name that must have separate articles that may be connected only via disambiguation hatnotes (and do not discuss the relationship between these two entities). --Orlady (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I have a certain amount of sympathy for that point of view -- as a database geek, I want a primary key to refer to one and only one thing. The mounds are notable for one reason; the house (presumably) for another. Therefore, they should be in separate articles. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

They are in separate articles. The current issue is doncram's insistence that there is no relationship between the different instances of "Old Town" other than coincinot allodence of name, so he will not allow the different articles to discuss the relationship between the various features called — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlady (talk • contribs) 12:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC) posting incomplete comment as i lost view of window where i was typing

• Support as clearly warranted per user LessHeard vanU. Writegeist (talk) 00:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Hey, I am pretty shocked by what is being said here. I am not sure how to respond, point by point interspersed into comments above, or what. The main thing going on in my editing, big picture, is that I have worked collaboratively, for years, with a number of other editors, to develop the NRHP system of articles, starting with collaboratively developing List of National Historic Landmarks in New York and List of NHLs in NYC, then extending to all states' NHL list-articles (indexed here), then developing table-format NRHP articles nation-wide (indexed here). Of which I have created a great portion. And I have developed out the majority or a great portion of articles and content of specific list-articles, including:
• National Register of Historic Places listings in Henrico County, Virginia
• National Register of Historic Places listings in New Haven, Connecticut
• National Register of Historic Places listings in Syracuse, New York

and others which I brought up to a reasonable state that I am proud of (though others looking to find fault, might still find fault). It happens that I took on the thankless task of creating disambiguation, and dealing with wave after wave of editors on issues with that.

Recently a main effort of mine has been to proceed within Misplaced Pages guidelines to create articles using a new NRHP article starter system. In compliance with a program to do so, indeed and well covered recently in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Archive 47#just do it by bot now discussion. Several dissenters in that discussion have commented here; I do believe the consensus there was and is that stub article development is okay. Using an external database program that I wrote myself from scratch, drawing upon NRIS database, to develop better starting points for NRHP articles than have heretofore been used. To reduce tedium in edits, and to serve as basis for a trial to see if it could serve mine and other editors needs discussed in that "just do it by bot now" discussion.

You can point to selected incomplete articles that are brand new, or you can find a stray from 2008 that has apparently been long bothering an editor, where in fact my editing is interrupted and patchy. Especially if you interrupt me, and effectively prevent me from taking an article further! I do not hold out the set of Grand Forks County articles yet as being well-developed; I have considered myself partway through development there, which so far has yielded:

• this United Lutheran Church
• this Telephone Co. Building
• this Ost Valle Bridge
• this Building at 201 S. 3rd St.
• and numerous others. You could also find other articles further developed by me which would give a different picture if you looked at those ones selectively too. Out of 92,000+ edits contributed by me. I'll stop now. I would be pretty offended, personally, if this topic ban is passed. --doncram 01:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
  • • You have failed to address the complaints about your WP:OWN attitude. In fact, with remarks such as "Especially if you interrupt me, and effectively prevent me from taking an article further!", you have provided further evidence of it. The number of edits you have doesn't help you here. You'd think that with over 92K edits, an editor would have the clue to not dump out shoddy articles like this, this, and this to the mainspace. So many of your articles are heavily laced with ambiguity ("was built or has other significance", "may or may not", etc.) that one wonders if you put any care or second thought into what you write. People are usually offended by topic-bans, but that doesn't stop them being handed out to those who deserve them. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This is pretty much a tangent, because the 3 items Lothar von Richthofen notes are not NRHP articles. About the first, the St. James' Church one relates to this addition of that item about St._James%27_Church,_Međugorje in Herzegovina to the St. James' Church dab page, back in 2008. When cleaning up St. James' Church|the dab page, I first fixed up all NRHP entries with the supporting bluelinks that are now required. Another editor was deleting all imperfect entries. In broad terms, i believe that items added by newbies and IP editors to dab pages are often about notable places, and it is unnecessarily unfriendly to delete them for not complying with complicated Disambiguation and other guidelines. I was willing to do some work to improve some non-U.S. entries. I invited editor Peter I Vardy to fix up British entries, and he did. I created articles for several other non-U.S. ones, with quick Google results, including that one I guess (I can't see it, it has now been deleted by SarekOfVulcan). I created St. James Church, Kerikeri in New Zealand, about a clearly notable historic church, for example. The other option I saw was to allow these to be deleted; i thought that creating stub articles with what sourcing I could find was better for Misplaced Pages and was respectful of other editors' contributions. The now-deleted stub might have attracted attention of Herzegovina editors, but did not I guess. I think no harm was done by creating that article. No great harm was done by it being speedily deleted, either, but I think a PROD or an AFD would have been more appropriate, and could have led to improvement of the article. --doncram 14:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

'''St. James Church''' in ], ] is a significant church.
It was built during 1934-1969.
== External links ==
*, website
]
{{church-stub}}

Thanks for displaying that. The source included, http://www.sacred-destinations.com/bosnia-herzegovina/medjugorje, does suggest some notability for the topic of the church or churches here. Like I said, i think a PROD or AFD woulda been more appropriate, and coulda led to improvement especially if notice posted to the Herzegovina wikiproject or wherever. It's not an NRHP article though.

P.S. User talk:Peter I. Vardy/Archive 15#possibly notable churches shows evidence of collaboration and outright appreciation for the disambiguation set up by me for U.S. NRHP topics ("I'm very impressed by the way this is organised in USA; we are miles behind!..."). --doncram 14:33, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Why are your organizational skills relevant to a discussion about your stub creation?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Others have asserted that I am not collaborative, or that my disambiguation efforts are "misplaced". This speaks to those charges. Should I respond or not to the many assertions and implications made in this discussion by others? --doncram 16:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

One could take as an answer to that question... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Unclear I am strongly opposed to the creation of these meaningless stubs; much of my "new" article writing for a long time has been the conversion of NrhpBot stubs into decent articles (e.g. Josiah Kirby House), largely because having such minimal pages is rather disgraceful to the encyclopedia. I'd much rather have 9 redlinks and 1 decent article than 10 substubs, since at least that way we'd have one article that actually tells the reader a bit about the topic. However, I'm uncomfortable with telling Doncram that he isn't allowed to create pages like this: I fear that the remedy for the problem may be overly harsh. Nyttend (talk) 01:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Note that the wording of my proposal doesn't prevent Doncram from creating stubs. It only forbids mainspace creation of stubs containing I-don't-know-what-this-data-means-but-I'll-mention-it-anyway language. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  The topic ban as proposed does not prevent the user in question from creating articles and stubs per se, it merely bars him from creating useless ones, thus encouraging him to actually put time and thought into what he adds instead of just substub-dumping at his leisure. If he accepts the terms of the ban (should it pass), I am sure he would be a valuable contributor. But if we let him go, he will inevitably lapse into his previous dumping behaviour. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Obviously I wasn't clear in my statement: sorry. I'm uncomfortable with absolutely forbidding him from creating articles in any format that wouldn't qualify for speedy deletion. I really wish that he'd stop, but I'm not a fan of topic bans because of the many ways that restricted editors can avoid them and the many ways that restricted editors' opponents can misuse them. This comment isn't meant to denigrate Doncram or anyone else here; I simply fear that a topic ban isn't going to help because of its nature as a topic ban. Nyttend (talk) 01:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Wishing only gets one so far...

  Ah well, I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. I'll leave it at that. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  I know that it doesn't really help; my point is that topic bans generally succeed at solving the problem at hand but are liable to producing other problems. Too often the result is a Pyrrhic victory — the immediate difficulty is solved, but only by taking an action that results in worse issues — and thus not a good idea. I'm afraid that wishing is the best thing that can be done here. Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  I've spent a good deal of time here navigating the minefields of Eastern Europe On En-Wiki, which has produced at least three ArbCom rulings and innumerable topic-bans. I've never as of yet found myself on the receiving end of such restrictions, but I've watched them be variously debated and implemented. I can understand them being used against editors in such partisan environments where people's political beliefs and perceived ethnic conflicts exist. But this is a case of one single established editor churning out worthless stublets en masse, then responding in a recalcitrant, hostile manner (crossing the border into the land of WP:OWN) to attempts to remedy this situation. If no restrictions are placed on his article creations, then it is difficult to curb such disruptive behaviour. Even revoking his autopatrolled rights would be a step better than just wishing that a highly obstinate editor would change his evil ways. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  "Churning out worthless stublets en masse"? That's hardly all he does. What en masse production are you referring to? Is a "masse" a county? I think that what he was doing most recently was starting a counties worth, then going back through to improve them somewhat. Is a "masse" all the ones for a given architect? I think he may have done that at some point. Is it all the ones that fit in some list article he's working on? My point is that I have most often seen him creating stubs to support some other type of development he's involved in. I don't see that as a situation that needs to be remedied. But, the people who follow around after him do not care what his purpose is. They are not interested in the development he's working on. And, they are not forced to do it. But, they want him to spend his time doing things their way to the detriment of his being able to work on the development he's working on. They follow him around from area to area from project to project, not caring at all what he is carefully building that THEY are disrupting. I "wish" that the people who follow him around and search his old edits looking for things to fuss at him about would stop. I find them "disruptive" and "evil". They ruin my enjoyment of Misplaced Pages. Lvklock (talk) 03:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages doesn't work for your enjoyment, Lvklock. It's an encyclopedia. Also, if you don't know what en masse is, wikt:en masse can help you out. As far as I can tell, the only thing you do on Misplaced Pages is to come out and support Doncram, so I'm not sure why you're even participating in this. Now, if maximizing editor satisfaction was one of Misplaced Pages's goals, then maybe I could state the reasons why I haven't been satisfied with Misplaced Pages editing, and the whole National Register of Historic Places project for many, many months now. --Elkman 04:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  To clarify, supporting Doncram appears to be the only thing Lvklock has done recently. I presume has been on a wikibreak. - edit history - Sitush (talk) 09:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Thank you, Sitush. Elkman, I began my recent set of contributions by noting that I had been on a business trip, gotten some new pictures and stuck my nose back in hoping to find that the environment had improved around here. That initial post was directed in exasperation at both Doncram and Orlady. No, I haven't been contributing, because this stuff takes all the fun out of it. I know Misplaced Pages doesn't exist for my enjoyment, but why would I bother if I didn't enjoy it. As far as my "wish", it was a direct response to someone else's "wish". It was to point out that many people wish many things, but that, just as you say, Misplaced Pages isn't here to grant people's wishes. There is nothing about my post that indicates that I do not know what "en masse" means. I was ASKING which set of articles he was referring to, and providing examples of why different sets of articles were created. I was pointing out that he was not creating them just to create articles, but in support of some other development. And, even though maximizing editor satisfaction isn't one of Misplaced Pages's goals, I'm pretty sure that I recall hearing some of the reasons why you haven't been satisfied with Misplaced Pages editing, and the whole National Register of Historic Places project for many, many months now. And some of them may be the same, and some may be different from why I feel the same way. But Misplaced Pages doesn't work for your enjoyment, Elkman, so I guess that's not something we need to go into here. Lvklock (talk) 13:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Lvklock is a fine contributor who I hope will be finding time to add more content to Misplaced Pages. I want to believe that his return to support Doncram is coincidental, but I must note that past conversations on Misplaced Pages talk pages have indicated that Lvklock and Doncram are personal friends, both at Misplaced Pages and in real life. I wish that all of us could get along as well as they apparently do. --Orlady (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

NRHP stubs break 3

• Strong Oppose Stubs are allowed. If it were someone else creating these stubs, we wouldn't be here. He has sometimes created bunches of stubs to support some other aim, such as setting up a nationwide network of disambiguation to help new editors get NRHP articles properly named. The disambiguation folks wouldn't allow him to set up the disambiguation pages with all red links, so he had to start stubs for some to support that. This editor takes on huge ambitious projects that he sees as important. Isn't that the whole point of a wiki? For editors to choose to work on what's important to themselves? I understand that many others don't see the point, but he does. I don't see the point of a lot of things people do here, but I don't try to stop editors from writing about every cartoon character that ever existed or to stop people who are very interested in categories from adding them just because I'm not interested in them. As long as they don't make me stop every time I do something and try to figure out every category it could fit in, then I applaud their efforts. But, if they wanted to bog me down with the details that are important to them, I'd just stop. Doncram has proven over and over again that he's not going to just stop just because some people aren't interested in the same things he is, nor is he going to spend all his time attending to the details that they personally find important. It seems to me that Misplaced Pages is losing a lot of the original vision, that by letting each person contribute what he/she enjoys contributing and is good at, then together a great thing can be constructed. In my opinion, driving people away because they don't attend to the details you think are important is going to turn Misplaced Pages into just another failed project. Lvklock (talk) 03:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Looks like someone failed to read the fine normal sized print. This is not a topic-ban from creating stubs or articles outright, this is a very specific one which seeks to prevent the creation of articles that are just "XYZ is or was a significant building. It may or may not have been built in 1903. Something significant happened in 1915." Nobody ever said that Doncram was 100% worthless, only that he rushes unnecessarily to create sub-stubs with little to no meaningful content. We are not asking him to stop contributing, we are asking him to hold his horses and make his contributions less by taking the time to take more than a superficial look into the subject of the article. We are also asking him to cease his WP:OWNERSHIP attitude towards that which he creates. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Looks like someone has failed to grasp my point in this and other comments on this page. Not everyone agrees that the stubs convey "little or no meaningful content". Not everyone objects to what are factual, supportable statements based on the information available from the source being used at that time. The stubs are not the main point of the contribution for him. They are suppoting some larger development he is working on. You are basically asking him to abandon what he is working on in order to develop what you want done in the way you want it done. And doing so in a nasty and sarcastic way to he and his supporters. Lvklock (talk) 13:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

  Could you provide examples of "nasty and sarcastic" comments made about User:Doncram, and to those you might indicate are his supporters, as they would be violations of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks - specifically "comment on the content, not the contributor"(s) - on this page or the discussions that lead to this proposal? I do see many comments describing various editors opinions on the quality of some stubs that doncram has produced, that are the issue at the centre of this issue, in forthright language and also in respect of doncrams history of producing stubs of such quantity and alleged reluctance to improve or allow others to improve said stubs, but that is permissible as it is in reference to content concerns. However, personal attacks on the editors involved does hinder the proper conduct of this discussion and I would be keen to try and ensure that those who have transgressed are properly warned about their future conduct. I would end by commenting that accusations of personal attacks without grounds is in violation of Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and may be itself a personal attack upon the named editors (except, of course, where such claims were made in mistake.) You may respond on my talkpage, rather than clutter up this page further. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment (I've already !voted support) - The problem with far too many of Doncram's stubs is not that they are stubs, but that they are elaborate embroideries upon a near-total absence of information. One Doncram-created stub (first pointed out on my talk page by Station1) that I found particularly offensive in the last ~36 hours (and, indeed, that I consider a "poster child" for the problem with all-too-many Doncram stubs) is Grand Forks County Fairgrounds WPA Structures, which Doncram created in article space and which I userfied -- and then move-protected after he immediately moved it back to article space with an edit summary that provided the nonreason that "Deletion/move by Orlady is unacceptable." That article is one of many that Doncram has written solely on the basis of a terse database entry in the National Register Information System. In this particular case, the article makes it clear that it is nothing more than a description of a database entry, with the lead sentence that says it "is or was a property ... that had a status change in the National Register of Historic Places NRIS database in 2008." Outside of a fairly decent photo, there is no substance on that page more meaningful/solid than that lead sentence. In contrast, Argyle Flats is an example of one of Doncram's contributions (in this case, from December 2010) that I was able to trim back to become a sensible one-sentence stub (and a relatively attractive stub, since it includes a nice photo). I've interacted with Doncram frequently for about 2-1/2 years now, and I know he has contributed some high-quality work, but his persistence in creating and defending garbage -- like that Grand Forks County Fairgrounds article -- or his "maybe this, maybe that" version of Argyle Flats -- is counterproductive and disruptive to Misplaced Pages. Experience like the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject National_Register of Historic Places/Archive 47#just do it by bot now demonstrates that no benefit will be derived from further discussion of Doncram's approach -- other than Doncram (who dominated the discussion with his verbose and frequent comments), nearly every participant in that discussion expressed significant reservations about his proposal, but Doncram's assessment is that the consensus supported his proposal. --Orlady (talk) 03:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"Elaborate embroideries upon a near-total absence of information." In your opinion. And my often voiced opinion is that I would rather know an ifobox worth of information about an NRHP in a town that I'm visiting than nothing at all. And, since you bring it up, I found your "move-protect(ion) after he immediately moved it back to article space" to be objectionable. It had just been brought up in a discussion of which you were well aware. There was an extremely high likelihood that if you'd left it, it would have been improved. Instead, you not only userfied and move-protected that one, but after I specifically asked if you were purposefully goading Doncram you went and userfied more of the batch he currently had in process. I find your following, goading and high-handedly imposing your standards on Doncram to be "counterproductive and disruptive to Misplaced Pages." He "dominated the discussion with his verbose and frequent comments"? The reason you find them "verbose" is that you aren't interested in hearing anything about the reasons WHY he does something. You often tell him so. So, he can't explain why it's important to what he's doing to create the stubs, because you don't care. You just want him to do it your way or not at all. Frequent comments? Of course there are frequent comments. There are frequent barbs and incivilities toward him and his work and he comments back. SURPRISE!!!! Lvklock (talk) 03:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

As above, could you please provide me with diffs of these "barbs and incivilities". Thank you. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Nothing is preventing Doncram from improving pages in his user space. Regardless, the histories of pages like User:Doncram/Clifford_Annex (which sat in article space, untouched, for 4 months before I moved it to Doncram's user space -- after determining that there wasn't enough content there to allow the article to be trimmed to a solid one-sentence stub) and Mansfield Center Cemetery (also not touched by Doncram for 4 months) do not support the theory that these insubstantial stubs would have been quickly improved if only they had been left in article space. --Orlady (talk) 04:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support. This is a narrowly tailored proposal. Unfortunately, this appears to be the only method to prevent articles such as User:Doncram/Grand Forks County Fairgrounds WPA Structures from appearing in mainspace. Normal methods suggested by some opposers above, such as appeals to Doncram by other editors, or simply editing after the fact, have been tried and have failed. The creation of tens of thousands of similar automated articles has been proposed, and despite the objections of numerous other editors, Doncram has in the past claimed or thought that he has had consensus to proceed when others reading the same discussions come to the opposite conclusions. There is a danger that thousands of these articles will be created if there is not forceful and clear community disapproval. Station1 (talk) 06:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
• Reluctant Support While in general even the idea of banning someone from creating articles is repulsive to me, it appears this user is not willing to take sound advice on-board, or even willing to work within their own user space to flesh out articles that while notable, are simply not ready for prime time. It appears that "edit count" and "articles created" is their primary goal here; and that just isn't what the project is supposed to be about. @Doncram, work on some articles in your userspace for a bit, get some feedback and collaboration from other editors, then roll them out when they have some meat behind them. Perhaps then we can revisit/lift this proposal. (if it does indeed pass) — Ched :  ?  06:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
• I just don't feel comfortable supporting this. I completely agree that some changes need to be made, but considering everything "en toto", I don't feel right about a "BAN". I'd rather find another solution here. — Ched :  ?  22:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit count and articles created are not my goals. I have worked on many focused drives, and the Grand Forks article(s) being criticized are part of an article drive whose natural discussion point should be Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Grand Forks County, North Dakota#Article drive, not here. The following shows Recent Changes to Grand Forks County NRHP articles (during last 30 days, so not including majority of my edits). It shows a pattern of my making multiple edits developing articles over a day or two. And, before completing an article drive, as I did for National Register of Historic Places listings in New Haven, Connecticut or National Register of Historic Places listings in Henrico County, Virginia or others, I would develop some or all descriptions in the NRHP list article and in the process revisit many individual articles and make further edits. Articles criticized here include unfinished work in a bigger article drive, in progress, interrupted. --doncram 09:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

doncram, I would absolutely love to have you convince me to change my stance here. First you would need to understand and accept the reasons behind this proposal, and second you would need to vow to make adjustments so as the concerns would be addressed. I honestly don't care if you delete comments from your talk page, or prefer to carry on conversations on another person's page. It is the articles that are of concern here. ex: "The XYZ building was built (sometime) by (somebody) and was mentioned in the New York Times"" just isn't the type of stub that's ready to be pushed into article space. This proposal is very narrowly construed, so I don't think it would be difficult to find a solution. I don't understand why you're not willing to work on things in your own user space, but I'm willing to listen. To be honest, I have maybe a half dozen articles which could probably exist in article space at this time; a couple which have been sitting in my user-space for well over a year. From my point of view, the condition of the article reflects directly on me as a writer, so I want them to be as good as I can possibly make them, especially if the history is going to show that I am the one who created them.

How about this suggestion: start putting these articles in our Incubator project until they have been worked through a bit. To be honest, I am flattered when either someone asks me to help with an article they are working one, ... OR ... someone else is willing to help me with an article. There's nothing wrong with collaboration, in fact it can be a very enjoyable experience. Just pushing out "It Exists", and "Here's the ref that makes it WP:N isn't really helping the cause here. Just a thought, and best of luck. — Ched :  ?  11:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you all totally don't get it. Doncram was instrumental in building great huge parts of the NRHP project. The tableizing, first of NHL's, then of every county of NRHP's. The hours and hours of disambiguation to get identically named NRHPs in different locations named properly so that new editors would know how to proceed when confronted with something like Main Street Historic District, which probably exists in some form many multiple times in the country. Working through issues where projects clash with other projects like Ships, disambiguation, etc. He works in big scope. He's not INTERESTED in working in the small scope you all want him to. Do you really want to drive away such an experienced and prolific editor? I get that you don't care that you pretty much drove me away. I don't get it with him. Lvklock (talk) 13:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I drove you away? .. To be honest, I don't even recall ever editing with you Lvklock. I offer my apology, and ask how I can make amends for this. As far as "what I get" or "don't get" - all I can say is that if his/her efforts are causing disruption, then I'm in favor of limiting that disruption. I'm also in favor of encouraging and assisting any editor in improvement so there will not be any further disruption. — Ched :  ?  14:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Anybody who has watched NRHP coverage on Misplaced Pages in recent years should surely recognize Doncram's great contributions. But the good stuff he's done doesn't excuse his ownership of these subpar substubs. Nobody is insisting that he "work in the small scope" or engage in any other Misplaced Pages work he's not interesting in volunteering for. Nobody's asking him to do anything, rather to refrain from doing something that harms Misplaced Pages. He's been requested not to put these embarrassingly bad stubs in mainspace before they're ready, and the plea has fallen on deaf ears. So the community is now being asked to impose it as a requirement. Ntsimp (talk) 15:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

No, Ched, I'm sorry. I was not replying directly to you. You are one of the saner voices here. I refer to the change from a "live and let live" culture that Misplaced Pages seems to have had in the past to this conform or go away culture I see now. I'm sure I did something wrong by not outdenting, or not starting a new section or something. The truth is, I don't have time for this, but I hate seeing everything so one-sided here. And heaven forbid Doncram should defend himself at length...that would just feed into the criticism that he is verbose and too frequent in his comments.

Ntsimp, no one seems to be listening to the crux of what I'm saying. Stubs are often part of the framework of the bigger, more ambitious projects Doncram undertakes. He cannot undertake those projects without building stubs, a task which I presume is not his favorite thing to do. He cannot build the stubs to your standards while achieving appreciable and enjoyable progress on the things he is good at and enjoys. Therefore, take away his ability to generate quick and easy stubs and you take away his ability to chieve the big ambitious projects that have helped grow the NRHP project so much. HE CAN'T DO WHAT HE DOES WITHOUT GENERATING STUBS! He couldn't have built what he has helped to build without being able to generate stubs. I believe that when he began in Misplaced Pages and the NRHP project, these stubs would have been considered more than adequate. The stub DOES provide a great starting place for new editors. If you put it in userspace, new editors cannot find it. The reference with blanks in it provides a proper reference framework for a new editor that might otherwise be clueless about what was being looked for there, or how it should be coded. The sentences that he puts in are a response to those who didn't want a stub with just one sentence saying that the place is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Every time he has tried to evolve something to please someone else, it angers four other people. Is it any wonder he is seen as being recalcitrant? If I were he, I'd go by the "you can't please everyone so you may as well please yourself" rule myself. The bar is being raised on how good the stubs need to be to the point that it will make it impossible for him to undertake the focused, widespread, ambitious kind of thing that are what HE enjoys contributing to the Wiki. So, instead of the community working to incorporate his strengths, you're going to insist that he either do a lot of work in the areas of his weaknesses in order to do the things that are his strengths, or that he not do anything much at all. Maybe he'll still be like me, and take some pictures once in a while. What a waste. Lvklock (talk) 16:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I thought the long-running consensus was that newcomers tend to create articles, not build upon existing articles. Also, what "bigger, more ambitious projects", becuase I haven't seen any. –MuZemike 20:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe some people, but as a newbie I wouldn't have started with a whole new article off the bat. I certainly started with smaller scale contributions to existing NRHP stubs before I began a whole new one myself. Lvklock (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Bigger more ambitious: NHL and NRHP tableizing, large scale NRHP disambiguations, working with other projects like ships and disambiguations, all mentioned elsewhere on this page. I doubt anyone has seen all of what he's done. It's nearly 100,000 edits. Lvklock (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

You said, "He couldn't have built what he has helped to build without being able to generate stubs." My reply to that is that yes... he definitely could. It just would have taken him longer, and fewer people would have ostracized him. As has been brought up numerous times in this debate and the thousands previous, There. Is. No. Deadline. Why is it imperative to set up thousands of disambiguation pages now? (Never mind the fact that the pages don't exist yet) Why is it imperative to get something rather than nothing about every single one of these places in North Dakota now? It isn't.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, here, I'll give y'all some more to pick apart. He could not have helped to advance the project as far as it has come as quickly as it has come without being able to generate stubs. Better? Satisfy the semantics police? It's not imperative it be done now, but it IS what he enjoys doing, while filling out stubs to your standard apparently is not. HE DOESN'T LIKE DOING IT!! He's a volunteer, just as we all are. Why the heck would he volunteer to do something he finds onerous? It's also not just a matter of looking up the online document to fill out the stub a little more so that he can support the thing he's working on. You want the project he's working on to grind to a halt every time it needs a stub while he requests a nomination document and waits for it to arrive? That's not just slowing things down a little from the way he enjoys working, that's STOPPING it entirely. Next, it's easier to set up disambiguation pages ahead of time than to sort out the mess afterwards when people who don't know any better get them titled inappropriately. It doesn't have to seem important to you. All the gobbledy-gook you spent hours and hours on coding for the infobox variations meant nothing to me, but I appreciated the time and energy you put into it. Doncram does lots of things I couldn't care less about, but HE is passionate and enthusiastic about them. I say let him continue to work in the way he has historically done. Lvklock (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Re "HE CAN'T DO WHAT HE DOES WITHOUT GENERATING STUBS!": Once again you demonstrate your disastrously incomplete understanding of the proposal. How many times does this have to be repeated? Doncram would still be allowed to create stubs. He would be prevented only from making them unencyclopaedically vague. Is that really unreasonable to ask that we report solid facts in an encyclopaedia? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

NRHP stubs break 4

Doncram asked me to comment and I do so reluctantly - mainly because I think almost everybody is acting badly.

Please see the substub article Belcoville Post Office. There are at least a couple of folks who put these out on a regular basis. My first reaction when I saw one was that they should be deleted, but then couldn't find a reason in policy to delete these, then I learned to live with it. Now, I'd still prefer that they weren't written, but as long as they are there, I make a point to hang some of my pictures there. :-}

The moral from the above, is that folks can write NRHP substubs without upsetting too many people and we can all learn to live with it. There's no policy against it.

Two major differences from the Belcoville Post Office article and Doncram's

• 1 Belcoville has less content, but is written in more natural language.
• 2 Doncram didn't write the Belcoville article.

So, I think we can all politely ASK Doncram to please make the language a bit more natural, and to update the articles a bit more quickly. I'll also ask him not to put out too many of these before he updates them - maybe only one county at a time. If there are really more serious issues, perhaps we could set up a special page at WT:NRHP, i.e "Substub review" and userfy or delete anything that is too offensive after a given time, say 2 months after creation.

I will also TELL Doncram. I think you are bringing much of this onto yourself by ignoring the wishes of other editors. You've done some great things at WP:NRHP, and you will continue to do some great things if you can avoid silly arguments like this.

To the editors on the other side. If you are going to topic ban somebody, please specifically identify which policy you think they broken. WP:Own might apply here, but I don't think it is the crux of the issue. I think the crux is that you've let Doncram's sometimes acerbic style get to you. Could you just relax a bit? I don't think Doncram will react too well to threats and banning and the like. And I really do not think that we want to end up throwing out an editor with his record of contributions (which is the likely ultimate end of this).

That's all I have to say.

Smallbones (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The Belcoville article doesn't show any of the problems relating to the topic ban proposal. If Doncram had created the article, it would have read something like: "Belcoville Post Office is a property that is or was located in Weymouth Township, New Jersey. The building was built or has other significance in 1918. It was designed and/or built by Vivian Smith. It was added or had other action taken on the National Register of Historic Places on March 14, 2008. The listing has one contributing building on an area of 2 acres. The building is described in its National Register listing."--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Copyright

Hi,

It is claimed that this image is in public domain, but there seems to be no evidence. Please, advise. p.s. I already asked the person who posted it.Kazemita1 (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

 Done – image tagged with {{di-no permission-notice}}. ╟─TreasuryTag►ballotbox─╢ 18:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Question - Whilst having no opinion on the merits or otherwise of the image or its tagging, the image was originally uploaded in 2008 with a website given as a source. That source was presumably checked by at least one other editor and accepted as valid. Now the website is down, the image is tagged as unlicenced. Does this have ramifications on all images where the source website is taken down, whether they are PD or fair use? Mjroots (talk) 07:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it has. Thankfully we have the webarchive, which has several copies of the source website . Note I do not see any evidence of the images being public domain on that page, nor does it seem likely that this is the true source of the images. Yoenit (talk) 07:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

WikiGuide RfCs

Would an admin (or admins) close the following RfCs CSD criteria for new articles, being templated, and socialising on WP? Crossposted to WP:VPP. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 03:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure these RfC's should be "closed". I'm not saying they shouldn't, but I am raising the question. Not all RfC's are closed (I think) and not all RfC are necessarily looking for a GO/NOGO decision -- they are just that, requests for comments and conversation about a matter. In the case of Misplaced Pages:Wiki Guides/Allow socializing for instance, the proposal is

"Misplaced Pages should allow some amount of non-article related socializing on talk pages and possibly increase the visibility of Misplaced Pages's IRC channels."

It's quite possible that this is designed to foment further discussion that might lead to specific proposals for specific changes. If a person were to close this RfC with a result of "accepted", how exactly would the person then implement "Misplaced Pages should allow some amount of non-article related socializing"? Changes to the WP:NOT page and other pages, writing a new policy, or what? Similarly, at Misplaced Pages:Wiki Guides/Minimize talk page templates, the proposal is

"When dealing with new users, we should discourage excessive templating and encourage more personal messages."

If a person were to close this RfC as "accepted", how would she then implement this? The proposal at Misplaced Pages:Wiki Guides/Change CSD to userspace drafts is more specific and perhaps is amenable to a close. If closed as "accepted", though, implementation would require some changes to Twinkle as well as text changes at policy/procedure. Herostratus (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I think stuff like this needs more discussion, and if someone is going to close it, the close should mainly summarize the main points and arguments and not try to locate some consensus for something. –MuZemike 20:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Not every RFC asks for consensus; these seem more like organized discussions, and as such should be closed by summary and not by consensus. --Jayron32 20:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments that the closes should be summaries of the above RfCs, rather than than implementations. Cunard (talk) 22:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Opinions please.....on whether an editor who happens to be an admin initiating an AfD is "involved"

See Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#.22Involved.22_status_of_nominator. Some numbers of !votes'd e good here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Move protected page page move

Can someone move Rod Blagojevich corruption charges to United States v. Blagojevich.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not, as the article goes a bit beyond the case. Maybe opening an WP:RM discussion would be a good thing? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Really hate to request this at an Admin Board

Could some one delete Sathya Sai Baba : Returns back (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) its one the most egregious WP:CRYSTAL violations I have ever seen. The Hoax tag has been sitting on it for an hour. Normally I wouldnt mind waiting but this is rather bad one. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 14:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanx The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 15:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Redirects for discussion

Could someone please get around to dealing with the large backlog of redirects for discussion pages (eg. this one) which are overdue? Thanks. ╟─TreasuryTag►CANUKUS─╢ 15:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)