Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:01, 28 April 2011

1948 Arab–Israeli War

I suggest you read WP:V. It's a core policy of Misplaced Pages. The threshold for inclusion of material in an article is that it was published by reliable secondary sources, not our own interpretation of primary sources. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

A minor correction is in order. You certainly may use any analysis or interpretations that have been reliably published in primary sources. WP:PSTS only applies to unpublished original research done by Misplaced Pages editors.

In Robert Donovan, "Conflict and crisis: the presidency of Harry S. Truman, 1945-1948, University of Missouri Press, 1996,ISBN 082621066X, page 382 the author wrote that Under Secretary Lovett was asked to provide the President's Legal Counsel, Clark Clifford, an advisory opinion from a senior legal counsel at the State Department, Ernest Gross. It was used by the President and his staff in making decisions regarding US recognition of the newly partitioned states in Palestine. It was decided that neither state would be recognized if it attempted to form a unitary state governing all of Palestine or tried to obtain more territory than had been agreed upon in the international forum. There are a number of published accounts which say that Ben Gurion and the Provisional Council had decided to leave the matter of borders "open to developments". In Simha Flapan, "The birth of Israel: myths and realities", Pantheon Books, 1987, page 35 the author wrote that Ben Gurion was very displeased when he discovered that Elihu Epstein's request for US recognition contained a stipulation that Israel had been established within the boundaries of the 29 November UN resolution. Years later Clark Clifford, wrote an account explaining that he had personally insisted upon that written clarification regarding Israel's borders.

Here is the account via the JCPA: "Epstein was ecstatic. He did not realize that the President had still not decided how to respond to the request I had just solicited. It was particu­larly important, I said, that the new state claim nothing beyond the boundaries outlined in the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, be­cause those boundaries were the only ones which had been agreed to by everyone, including the Arabs, in any international forum.

A few minutes later, Epstein called back: "We've never done this before, and we're not quite sure how to go about it. Could you give us some advice?" I told him that I would check with the experts and get back to him... ...I asked Epstein to be sure the letter explicitly referred to the November 29 UN resolu­tion. the JCPA harlan (talk) 22:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

In December 1948 the Security Council considered the membership of the State of Israel. During the 384th Session the representative of the USSR objected to suggestions that the application be delayed until Israel's borders could be determined. He said

My delegation cannot agree with the assertion that the territory and frontiers of the State of Israel have not been established, are undetermined and vague. It holds the view that the territory of Israel has been defined by an international document, namely, the General Assembly's resolution of 29 November 1947, which is still in force. Not only does the resolution define precisely the territory of the State of Israel, but it even includes an appended map, which can be seen at any time by any member of the Security Council. The question is therefore beyond dispute. See page 22 of 45

During the 386th Session the views of the USSR and SSR Ukraine on the subject were repeated:

In our opinion the territory of the State of Israel has been determined and delimited by an international instrument, that is, the General Assembly resolution of 29 November 1947, and which remains in force. Not only does that resolution delimit the territory and boundaries of the State of Israel, but the resolution has a map appended to it which can be consulted by any member of the Security Council or by anybody else. Thus, the question is indubitable. See page 5 of 20

There were dozens of remarks like that during the General Assembly Ad Hoc Committee meetings on the application for membership. It was stated repeatedly, without objection from the representative of the Provisional Government of Israel, that it had been created by an act of the General Assembly. The day Israel was admitted to the UN, the Arab States extended it tacit recognition. The Arabs and Israel signed the joint protocol which agreed that the map from the plan of partition would be the basis of the negotiations during the Lausanne Conference, 1949. harlan (talk) 23:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Harlan. Ok have read WP:PSTS through again. Still discussing this at No More Mr Nice Guy

Thanks for the JCPA Article. The actual letter sure isn't flashed around. These either :

Border confirmation 22nd May 1948

Again 15th June 1949

Claim to territories after confirming the extent of it's Sovereignty, being recognized, confirming territories held under military control (occupation). talknic (talk) 17:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

In the example above, the advisory opinion is a primary source that provides its own published analysis. There is no requirement to supply a secondary source, since the analysis has already been reliably published and its origins are not Misplaced Pages or a Misplaced Pages editor. That sort of thing comes up all the time. Here are the last two discussions I had on the subject at WP:NOR harlan (talk) 04:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Harlan, Thx... I'm not sweating on any of this .. most of it'll end up on my blog re-edited in excruciating detail .. :-) "wikI/Pedia where general consensus can = 2 " talknic (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Claro talknic (talk) 08:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

1RR violation on 1948 Arab–Israeli War

You have made two reversions to the above article within less than two hours. The article is under a one revert per 24 hours restriction, as you can see on the top of the article's talk page. I believe I have already pointed this restriction out to you in the talk page discussion.

You should self-revert your last edit or you will be reported. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:22, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice try

One revision - removing the JPost source you added without the consensus you demand of others by misconstruing the guidelines.

You can show everyone where it says -- (Undid revision by No More Mr Nice Guy -etc- ) yes?

One reversion - your replacement of the JPost source. The second source you have added without the consensus you demand of others by misconstruing the guidelines.

(Undid revision 421797941 by No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) This is the second time No More Mr Nice Guy has added a source without the consensus he seeks.in talk.)

By your twisted criteria you could call my removal of your weird incorrection, reversion. (Removed No More Mr Nice Guy's addition of 'Mandate'. The source specifically emphasizes that the agreement did not say 'Mandate' Palestine) And why would it? The Mandate expired May 14th 194

But again, can you show everyone where it says -- (Undid revision by No More Mr Nice Guy -etc-) If it was reversion, the rest of your changes to that post would not have remained

Now here you are again, misconstruing the guidelines talknic (talk) 13:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Calm down and think about what you are doing. Take a break and work out some priorities. If you are not careful you will wind up every single editor who works on Israel-Palestine pages - people with every viewpoint and no viewpoint on the substantive issues. NMMNG is actually correct, it is not only by the undo that changes are reverted. Lots of help and advice are available for work on pages like this. I suggest you get some help and advice, not from me because it is too late and you don't trust me, but perhaps by posting for comments on WikiProject Israel-Palestine Collaboration. Otherwise, you are quickly heading towards being banned for good. Then you can write all you like on your blog about Misplaced Pages bias, but actually it isn't that at all, but you not taking the time to learn the procedures. Give yourself a break and take the chance you have; this is blunt because I don't see any other way of getting through. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but no thanks. The record speaks for itself. A record I'm sure even an intermediate mathematician would be ashamed to witness talknic (talk) 04:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Have it your way. Reported here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Fine by me. Thx talknic (talk) 04:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Notice of discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBPIA

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose, at their own discretion, sanctions on any editor working on pages broadly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict if the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in further inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. The committee's full decision can be read at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision.

You are notified here per the result of WP:AN3#User:Talknic reported by User:No More Mr Nice Guy (Result: Notified of discretionary sanctions). This notice will be logged at WP:ARBPIA#Log of notifications. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 02:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It's been interesting to see...

..how Wiki policies are used to perpetrate propaganda, prevent the addition of informative material, slowly remove the Palestinians from the picture, turn what could be simple discussions into marathons talknic (talk) 17:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

AN/I

I started a discussion about you here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

How cute... talknic (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry guys, but I couldn't stop laughing about this... AdvertAdam 08:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Me too. talknic (talk) 17:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

AE

Reported here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)