Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:58, 10 May 2011

United Kingdom Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Manual of Style

This template falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This template falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

British English?

What is 'British English'? And what is 'Commonwealth English', which redirects here?--Gazzster (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Erm, British English? It's linked in the text of the notice... Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen

Why is this, and the other templates in the category, hyphenated? The language is called British English. Let's just move them all to the proper names before it becomes a problem. —Michael Z. 2008-12-14 00:12 z

Needed?

1) People are tossing this template up rather haphazardly, in many cases, where there seems to be mainly a desire to point out that an article isn't (or wasn't) written in American English.

I recommend scrapping this and all other dialect markers.

2) At a minimum, I recommend removing the flags from the templates. Imagine an Indian or Irishman, having written an article like "Industrialisation", suddenly seeing the bloody Union flag on his work.

This is a recipe for problems, and is unnecessary.

PeterH2 (talk) 10:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it is useful to indicate which dialect a page uses if there appears to be confusion (for example if there have been a number of ENGVAR reverts). I would strongly oppose deletion. I don't see what harm the flags do, and since the template appears (or at least should appear) on the talk page anyway, it won't be on "his" work. --GW… 10:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The kind of nationalist nutter who is offended by a flag is typically offended by other innocuous things as well. We needn't particularly concern ourselves with not offending such people. I also disagree with the assertion that it isn't useful; these banners head off plenty of discussions which might otherwise be repeatedly brought up. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

1) A person finding the Union flag (or the American flag, etc.) offensive is by no means necessarily a "nationalist nutter" (though s/he may well be one, to be sure!). 2) The flag itself serves no purpose. 3) The dialect being used is at least in some cases not British, but some other related dialect (Hibernian, Indian, etc.) PeterH2 (talk) 08:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with Template:Hiberno-English (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Template:Indian English (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)? --GW… 09:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Nothing's wrong with them, or, at least, they're certainly less likely to be found offensive. But my bringing up those exs. was intended to suggest, in fact, that those two dialects are among those likely to be erased by people hastily slapping up the Union flag. For ex., how do we know Industrialisation wasn't written in Hiberno-English? PeterH2 (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

By looking for the first divergent edit. --GW… 23:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to flag the dialect unless people are edit-warring over it. FWIW I'd far rather we didn't try to accommodate every little nuance; at one point we had nonsense like {{Singapore-English}}, used on exactly one article which didn't include any Singaporeisms anyway. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

GW: There often (as with Industrialisation) is no divergent edit. PeterH2 (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, in the case of that article, the title is in British English. --GW… 09:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Nope. It's in non-Canadian, non-Oxford, non-American English. PeterH2 (talk) 22:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Template is written in...

Shouldn't the post read. This article is written in... ? The template is placed on the top of articles in the wikipedia namespace right?Cliff (talk) 22:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• The template automatically detects which namespace it is displayed in. --GW… 23:51, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Flag

The flag should be removed, since "British English" spelling is used outside the UK as well (for example in the Republic of Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Pakistan). ~Asarlaí 10:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

No it's BRITISH English, hence the British flag. Same with American English, where the US flag is used. I suspect, but correct me if I'm wrong, this request may well stem from something to do with hatred of anything British. I say this because tracing back edits from Asalai we come across a user called Sarah777 who has recently made some quite despicable anti British comments and for which a block should surely be considered. WizOfOz (talk) 12:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. My reason for wanting the flag removed is given above. I support the removal of all the flags, not just this one. I hav no link with Sarah777 and, if you'd botherd to delv deeper, you'd see that we strongly disagree on some important issues. I suggest you remove your wild speculation. ~Asarlaí 13:28, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow you. I looked at this discussion: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland and noticed your direct response to Sarah777 about flags, and this is Sarah's statement that your responded to; Some bot is adding a "British English" tag, complete with the loathsome flag of the genocidal British Empire, to Ireland-related articles; which, per the WikiBrit pov pushers, the article titled "The British Isles" is. I presume as it is being added automatically by a bot it can be repeatedly removed on sight? This is clear and highly disruptive attack on the Project as it relates to sovereign Ireland. Now rather than accusing me of not assuming good faith, when all I did was report the facts, could you comment on the remarks made by Sarah777? WizOfOz (talk) 15:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

You claimd that my request to remove the flag "stems from...hatred of anything British". How is that assuming good faith? Sarah's remarks hav nothing to do with me. Now let's get back on topic, this isn't a forum. ~Asarlaí 16:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Right, so British English is used all over the place, but that's nothing to do with the flag. The flag denotes the fact this it is British English and not some other variety such as American or Canadian or Australian. Are you saying it shouldn't be called British English? The flag is an emblem which quickly dentoes the language style. Extending your argument, we could loose all flags everywhere and just replace them with text; boring. WizOfOz (talk) 16:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Wiki, Hiberno-English is the dialect used in Ireland. I'm fairly sure 'tis true that is the case. In which case we either remove the offensive flag from the tag on all sovereign-Ireland-related articles or else we have a Hiberno-English version complete with Irish Tricolour which should be placed on all Ireland-related articles. In the case of The British Isles (sic) article we can have both tags/flags or neither. Sarah777 (talk) 18:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:Hiberno-English alredy exists. However, ther's no need for it, since nearly everyone in Ireland (unfortunately) uses "British spelling". We should only hav three templates and no flags: one for UK spelling, one for US spelling and one for Canadian spelling. ~Asarlaí 18:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Depends. If we decide to maintain the flag on the tag then the question of the flag becomes important; and on sovereign-Ireland related articles we will need the Hiberno tag. My favored outcome would be flag removal, but I doubt you'll get much support for that in the British-pov Wiki environment. Sarah777 (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, we need a version of the tag that features the Tricolor - the British-English tag could be taken to cover NI related articles. Sarah777 (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that the templates do little good visually. Another version of a scarecrow I think. Youthful or otherwise less worldly North Americans who will go around changing "colour" to "color" all day are not likely to visit the talk page. The Union Flag should not be attached to this template as it nationalizes the variant which may be used in areas outside the UK, such as...Ireland. I believe it is useful in marking pages for spell checking bots, am I right? Then in that case the template can exist without a flag, bots don't salute. Sswonk (talk) 19:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

In that case how do we remove the flag from the template? I can't seem to find the door. Sarah777 (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Sswonk and the flag should be removed. Mo ainm~Talk 19:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

This template is written in British English, and some terms used in it are different or absent from American English and other dialects of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Here's a start at using an icon in place of the flag. This icon is call File:Globe of letters.svg. I will tty to make one which replaces the letters with the word "colour" with a green check (tick) mark next to it. Sswonk (talk) 20:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

This template is written in British English, and some terms used in it are different or absent from American English and other dialects of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Here's the version which implies British English is correct by using an icon. The template text explains the rest. Sswonk (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Diagree. The flag should not be removed. This is clearly a politically motivated move arising from an apparent dislike of things British. Furthermore, the template appears only on Talk pages, so presumably is not subject to any manual of style issue. Out of interest, Asarlaí, why do say people Ireland "unfortunately" use British English? This proposed change is likely to lead to edit wars on talk pages as well as elsewhere.WizOfOz (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

There would be much less political motivation without the political symbol, the flag. Some other method of identifying spelling and grammar differences which are multinational in nature should be used. Sswonk (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not a political symbol, it's a flag. It is clearly disliked by some people for no good reason and they are being allowed to introduce a political POV by having it removed. Whilst it's multinational the language is referred to as "British" English, and that's too bad if you're anti British. The flag isn't really the issue, it's the tip of the iceberg. Notice the attmept to have a Hiberno English template - that's really what it's all about, so it seems to me. An attmept to offload any mention of British and any related symbols. WizOfOz (talk) 21:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

if there's any doubt about what's going on here, see this Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland, the section called "British pov tagging" at the bottom. WizOfOz (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Some editors want to see any reference to British in regards to Ireland in any form removed. Mabuska 21:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm rapidly realising it. I just checked out Sarah777 editing and there's other articles, e.g. List of Numbered roads in the British Isles, where she's removed it from an Irish project. Some of the comments, like those above, must be in breach of something or other, and the stupidity over at that British Isles article. Where is the best place to report what's happening here? Please respond on my talk page. WizOfOz (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The flag is inconsiderate in regards to Republic if Ireland related articles as their is still a strong senstivity and fear amongst certain editors that it implies British rule and the like. Sarah777's comments breech civility, NPOV, and are down-right provocative - they have been blocked in the past before for similar behaviour so should know better. Unfortunately they also don't seem to realise that British Isles is a geographical term for the archepelago and isn't a political term of "ownership". Does that mean the London Irish rugby team is an Irish team rather than an English team?

If there is to be a discussion on the removal of the flag, it should be raised at all related WikiProjects not just the Ireland one and possibly the neutrality board. Mabuska 21:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's well known. About the flags; a number of editors involved here seem to be campaigning (sorry if this word breaches some etiquette) agasint flags in general and it has been stated elsewhere (not by me) that, to parphrase it, as a smokescreen to get rid of the Ulster Banner and other British-related flags. it seems to me that this suggestion about the British English template could be related to that. WizOfOz (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The Neutrality Board; I'll look at it. Would a report there put a hold on the attempt here over the template? WizOfOz (talk) 21:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(edit conflict) I don't want to comment on other editors agenda's too much, but it is clear enough with some. The best way to deal with it is to raise it at the appropriate places for a broad range of editors to voice opinion to get a more balanced and unbiased viewpoint. The Neutrality Board is simply for other views and opinions, sometimes you'll get few responses, sometimes many - thats why its best to raise notice of it to several related places to ensure there is no ganging up to force through what could be a controversial change. Mabuska 21:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Actually, it is a political symbol, flags are military symbols that have been adapted to become national emblems to mark territory, allegiance etc. Politics and nations go hand in hand. To see "No good reason" would be laughable when discussing objections by these Irish editors to a British flag. Have you ever read anything Irish about their will to gain independence or even once heard Skibbereen? Your statement shows a lack of the capacity for understanding and felling that truly escapes my comprehension. In my view, you should try to see this for what it is, a request to remove the Union Flag, as much a political icon of the British Empire to many as the Lion and Unicorn are, and replace it with a more neutral symbol. Sswonk (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't take offence at this, but you sound like a voice from the past. They've moved on, apart from a minority of Irishmen who still bear a grudge against Britain. Sorry, but you fail to realise that Misplaced Pages is for the masses, not for the Irish editors. WizOfOz (talk) 21:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiousity Sswonk your statement appears to be the wrong way around. The Union Flag is a political flag used to represent the Union and mark out territory obviously being used in the military to present that Union. Mabuska 21:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you just proved string theory! Sswonk (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

And another thing, I'd certainly take offence at your view that the Union Flag is not neutral and a "political icon of the British Empire". All I can say is I'm coming to the conclusion that Misplaced Pages sucks! Some of the views expressed here are nothing short of mediaeval, what with references to the Irish Famine - in 2011 - FFS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by WizOfOz (talk • contribs) 21:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

As a side-note, i really like the look of Sswonk's first suggestion. Mabuska 22:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

General and final statement: My views are not medieval nor are they from the past. There is a relevance to the flag in the template, but there is also an offense that may be taken, so I think it should be removed. I also think that the entire scope of these templates, see Category:Varieties of English templates, should be addressed together. There is a tinge of "ownership" to the placement of these icons on talk pages. I don't think any of them are necessary, and should all be replaced by hidden categories. The templates are not very useful, people ignore or misunderstand them and to take Sarah at her word they can be very offensive to some in their use among article talk pages. This is one area where Misplaced Pages can easily come up with a better solution than the current flag plantings. Sswonk (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. As I said before, if we're to keep using the templates we should only hav three of them and no flags: one for UK spelling, one for US spelling and one for Canadian spelling. ~Asarlaí 22:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm staggered (not) at how ill-informed some British Nationalist editors are in relation to the history and symbolism of the Union Jack. It is akin to Germans still using the Swastika to represent Germany. If the British want to pollute their own articles with that rag, fair enough. But do NOT impose it in any shape or form on sovereign-Ireland related articles. As to the brain-dead utterances of WizOfOz "what with references to the Irish Famine - in 2011 - FFS!" - may I suggest a perfect analogy?

People so conditioned and with such lack of any historical perspective should not be let loose on Misplaced Pages. Sarah777 (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I really think an AN/I is in call for in regards to Sarah777's highly disparaging and offensive comments as of late. Mabuska 22:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. I didn't know about all those templates. So, are there similar complaints with the others or is it just the British one? We maybe have a situation where a minority poitical view is driving a standard, or at least attempting to. It should be resisted. Those flags are really visually useful in the templates. WizOfOz (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It should be possible to code the template so that you can add an "RoI' condition to it that would omit the the flag from RoI related articles wheere it is added to articles with an "RoI' parameter declared. A simple solution i think that suits both ends. Mabuska 22:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The simplest solution is just to remove all the flags. Ther's a discussion about removing the flag from the American English template too. This one isn't being singld out, Wiz. ~Asarlaí 22:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well if it falls flat and no consensus is agreed, a conditional parameter could be added to the template so that the flag doesn't appear in RoI articles. Mabuska 22:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I see User:Mabuska is struggling with the reality of the WP:NPOV concept. Apparently some genocidal empires and their banners are more protected from comment than others - or so he wishes! Sarah777 (talk) 22:47, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I know. It semed to have died down with no consensus but you've resurrected it. I commented there as well. I disagree with coding the template to facilitate minority POV. WizOfOz (talk) 22:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

A minute. How many Ireland articles actually have this British English banner? I bet not a lot; maybe none. Just take it off them. That sorts everything. WizOfOz (talk) 22:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I did. On the British Isles (sic) article. But is was restored by British Nationalist editors. So I've added the Hiberno tag instead - in order to preserve the spirit of WP:NPOV Sarah777 (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Hardly NPOV when you added the flag of the Republic of Ireland when Hiberno-English is spoken throughout the island of Ireland (Mid-Ulster English which is spoken in Northern Ireland is a dialect of it) which isn't represented by the tricolour. I had changed to flag to a more neutral St. Patrick's flag, however decided to reverted your change on the basis of WP:BRD on the simple basis of the tag you added stating that a part of the article uses Hiberno-English terms - unless you can prove where in the article it does then the tag is irrelevant and pointless. If you can prove it then state where the terms are and we can re-add it. Mabuska 23:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Can we just remove the flag on all the language templates? There's never been trouble on any Malaysia-related articles, but I can see the reason behind removing the flag. I like Sswonk's second suggestion, shows probably the most well-known difference at a glance. Perhaps this should be moved to central discussion, if one does not already exist? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Why were flags ever placed on language templates to begin with? A language knows no country borders. GoodDay (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I have a suggestion which is very unconventional, however we are encouraged to BE BOLD so here goes: replace the Union Jack with an image of William Shakespeare. Mark Twain can be used in lieu of the Stars and Stripes. This way all geo-political controversies are avoided. Honestly, does anyone find the Bard offensive?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Mark Twain is not well recognised from his picture. Flags are fine. Removing them serves no useful purpose other than to appease a particularly nasty POV that finds just some flags offensive. LevenBoy (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

We can instead use Poe-he's recogniable. Honestly, I don't object to the flags, however, there are many editors who don't think they should be used here. We must seek a compromise.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

A voiciferous minority, I would say. Those who do object fall into two camps; the real objectors who for reasons best known to themselves find the British flag offensive, and the rest who tend to appease that sort of attitude. Both points of view are quite unhealthy at Misplaced Pages. I think also it would be wrong to remove the flag just from this template. All flags from all templates would have to go, and that would require a much broader debate that is taking place here. LevenBoy (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Why am I hearing the Stiff Little Fingers song Fly The Flag in my head?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Replacing the flags with pictures of people will only lead to more arguing. If we must replace the flags with somthing, I think Sswonk's proposal is best.

We've all seen the arguments why the flags should be removed...but I've yet to see any valid arguments why the flags should stay. The templates say, in bold, "This article is written in British English" or "This article is written in American English". It's easy to spot. Why do we need to hav flags on these templates? ~Asarlaí 18:49, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

To further help show the fact its British or American? Though yes, there isn't an explicit need for the flags, however if one is offended by a flag, then they should obviously be offended by the terminology used as well as for example British and the Union Flag go hand in hand. Mabuska 22:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Per Asarlai, what are the flags actually for? What do they add? The minus is all too easy to see when you look at the trouble they have caused for people who could have been doing something useful? Unless an absolutely compelling reason is advanced for their retention, these nationalistic logos should be removed. Replace them with symbols per Sswonk if you like, or just manage without. Our readers can read, and so can our editors, and using icons as decoration like this is against the spirit of WP:ICONDECORATION. Just get rid of them meantime. --John (talk) 06:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I mostly agree with John. When you google "using flags for language choice" you will find plenty of websites that explain why it's a bad idea to use flags to denote languages. I don't actually think it's mere decoration, as the flags do serve a purpose – but they serve it poorly and they cause unnecessary conflict. Hans Adler 08:58, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Template-Class United Kingdom pages
• NA-importance United Kingdom pages
• WikiProject United Kingdom articles