Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:43, 10 March 2006

User:Jondel/Archive1 /Archive2

Please Help Us Clean WP from Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath and His Crony

Hamsacharya Dan is back with his usual vandalism. Adityanath, the sysop on watch, is going on a holiday. Please see my Talk Page, Mahavatar Babaji Talk Page, and Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath Talk page to understand the situation that led me to you. We need your help and other sysops whom you might know.

Maraming salamat.

No To Frauds 23:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Mirror

Please see WP:VPA#Non-Compliant Japanese Mirror. I appreciate your help. Superm401 | Talk 05:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

How do I make a user Page In Multiple Languages?

Hello, I was wondering if you could tell me how to make my userpage in other languages. I want to add a version of my userpage in spanish, french, and esperanto, but I don't know how to do this, and I'm a new user. I can see that your user page has a japanese and spanish version, so if anyone would know, it would be you. Thanks, your help would be appreciated.--Ikiroid 22:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Add tags like these ]] (for Spanish and Japanese respectively). By the way, so how did you get into esperanto? If you have time try to investigate Interlingua . It is sooo easy.--Jondel 00:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, I actually have been to the interlingua page, and I want to investigate more about the language. I tagged the site with an NPOV tag a while back, before I was a user, and there seems to be a lot of dispute around it after looking at its talk page.--Ikiroid 03:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think I seriously messed up. I created a new account with the same name on the french page, so now I have a new french identity complete with a userpage, and a non-user french page. What have I done?? Am I OK with two identities of the same name on two different Wikipedias???--Ikiroid 03:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

YOUVE STARTED WWIII AND A NUCLEAR REACTION THAT WILL END THE WORLD!!! just kidding.I believe you need to create an acount on the french wikipedia at least once, with the login password and all even if a 'dummy' user page comes up. The cookies of your computers must be up. If you have created the account once, the interwiki should go that page from the cookies of your PC. I don't want to get involved with the imbroglios at the interlingua page although I'm fascinated with the langauge.I've made some suggestions to be able to achieve a consensus. I don't know if the offical interlingua committee are creating a myth that the language is based on major languages outside of romance. It is romance based and that is why it is good and why I can immediately understand it. Still, it should become popular. I'll vist your page and see what I can do.--Jondel 03:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so I guess I'll just create a username in the espanol and esperanto Wikipedias while I'm at it.--Ikiroid 05:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes . Do that first before going there from an interwiki. I placed a delete notice at the other accidental french userpage. Hmm maybe I should study esparanto anyway, also folkspraak.--Jondel 05:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ohayo gozaimasu Jondel, Ogenki desu ka? You'll probably learn Esperanto faster than most people since it has the same stress rules as spanish (stresson second to last syllable). Plus, like tagalog, spanish, japanese, and interlingua(? i think) it is a syllable-timed language. And if I could make a suggestion, you should move your english-comprehension rating up one or two numbers, since you seem to understand everything thrown at you in english. Gxis la revido.--Ikiroid 22:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ohayou gozaimasu. Okage sama de genki des. Tokyo ni sunde imas. Filipinos read and write in English but converse in Tagalog or the regional dialect, after all it is an official language. English is like the language of formality, education, business, etc.Spanish is a very popular foreign language among Filipinos. I might learn Esperanto but I will probably always say that Interlingua is superior. the combination of Portuguese (Brazil), Spanish, French and Italian and the no. of people studying Latin make it far more suitable for international communication than eo(Esperanto). ia(interlingua) is almost intelligible to speakers of Spanish, Italian and Portugese. Very little learning required if you know those control languages. I'll move up my English rating.--Jondel 01:22, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

So I see. But I have another question: what do I click on in the español wikipedia in order to upload images? My spanish isn't good enough to the point where I can find it. I promise this is one of my last questions for a while.--Ikiroid 02:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi there .. It's at es:Especial:Upload. --Chris S. 04:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That's the link. But it appears as 'Subir', fourth link above the 'otros' idiomas.--Jondel 08:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

RfA submittals

Jondel, I am responding to your call for RfA entries and am pretty sure you would support seav and Coffee. I could nominate them if you or they like. --Ancheta Wis 01:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

TheCoffee is already an admin(I voted for him). It is very high time that seav becomes one.

He refused, but I would like to persuade him. He was actualy nominated as the same time as RickK but turned it down. I hope he accepts. This my proposed nomination, feel free to improve or reject. I just don't want another boring nomination: User:Jondel/Jedipromotion.--Jondel 02:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

That nomination text is a work of genius! You are The Man! How could seav refuse? Please let me know how I can help out. I could send notes to key members of the Council, but somehow I think your text would be more persuasive. --Ancheta Wis 22:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I'm nominated at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Lbmixpro. If you have the chance, can you vote? --LBMixPro 01:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Jondel, BDAbramson is in the process of nominating me at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Ancheta Wis, so your thoughts in this regard are propagating. --Ancheta Wis 15:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Interlingua

I will try to translate this without even opening the Interlingua article, just to be fair:

Io nascive in Philippinas. Io crede in Christo sed tamben in reincarnation. Io lege le biblia multo. Io vole studiar portuguesse. Me place cognosce tu. Amicalemente.

"I was born in the Philippines. I belive in Christ and also in reincarnation. I read the Bible a lot. I want to study portuguese. I´m pleased to know you. Friendly." :-)

My pleasure, friend. I´m a brazilian who follows the hindu religion. My best friends are christian, and they believe in reincarnation - as a great many brazilians do. A great soul was born among us, Chico Xavier, who tought many here to follow the Gospels with a reincarnationist view. His life was truly beautiful. As for the Bible and reincarnation, let me just show you something that has given me a great sense of humility: Jesus himself said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16:12). There are many levels of understanting of the teachings, and only our heart and faith can take us to their true light. -- I apologize for the rant here, I just wanted to tell you that which I believe and that my friends are just like you. :-) One of them is even a Catholic, though, of course, the Pope´d better not know that he has befriended this pagan which I am. :-) Best, Subramanian 02:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Ciao friend! I'm sorry I can´t write in Interlingua, though I can understand it perfectly. English will do. No, I didn´t know Swami Roberto, seems to be a nice man. I was born a protestant, but certain doctrines were too difficult for me to accept, such as eternal damnation, so I met Gurudeva and became a Hindu. I truly can say that now I am closer to what Jesus said was ideal than I was before. I live near São Paulo, yes! Edgar Cayce seems to be a very kind, sincere man, though some people keep complaining about details such as prophetic dates and lose the scope of the work he "downloaded" from above. I'm happey there are people such as you. Best, Subramanian 21:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jondel! I just came by to say that I'm glad there are people like you. You know, sometimes a tolerant person makes us feel less alien in this world, and we remember what we were fighting for. BTW, I liked the "I try not to feed the trolls" sign. Shanti Subramanian 10:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Questions (1 Writing, 1 Misplaced Pages)

Hi Jondel, 2 questions lang...

1. Situation: there's this paper, paper1. paper1 quotes paper2. I want to use the same quote that paper1 quoted from paper2. I have a copy of paper1 but I do not have a copy of paper2. When I put in a footnote on my reference do I put paper2?

2. Could you do advocacy in Misplaced Pages? How do you do this? Could you make a webpage to coordinate and write about this advocacy?

Ago tibi gratias (tama ba?) --Nino Gonzales 07:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

1. Nino, I can not give an authoritive answer but I believe that you can give the reference to paper2 if you are very sure it can be verified (even if you only have paper 1). Strict journalists might not permit this. Copy the exact same quote/reference from paper1.

2. No you can not.

Ita vero.Yes. I am still studying latin.--Jondel 08:23, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cebuano Misplaced Pages exists for advocacy?

Bay,

On Nino Gonzales' user page on the Cebuano Misplaced Pages, you wrote about three things:

1. That a lot of articles in the Cebuano wikipedia are written for the purpose of advocacy.
2. That the Cebuano wikipedia is NOT read by English-speaking wikipedians.
3. And the rest of the things that you wrote

First of all, before you lambast me for "interference" in other people's affairs, I think I need to introduce myself. I am Vincent "Bentong" S. Isles, the bureaucrat of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages, and I check the RecentChanges page daily. The reason why I am "interfering" in this communication between you and Nino is that I found your comments rather biased and unfounded.

You said: "I wrote to you here due to possible repurcussions." What repercussions do you mean? That the Cebuano wikipedia will become a rabidly "pro-Cebuano" web site? Do not be afraid. Although I (Bentong Isles) is "rabidly pro-Cebuano" in other fora, I think I have maintained my being a "wikipedian" rather than my being a language activist there at the Cebuano Misplaced Pages (although, of course, the very existence of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages and our advocacy for creation of more Wikipedias in Philippine languages is aimed ultimately to the dismantling of the privileged position of Tagalog in our country).

You wrote: "I doubt this cebuano wikipedians are read by English speaking wikipedians." Frankly speaking, I can't understand your sentence. The best message that I could make out of it is this: "I doubt (if) this (C)ebuano (W)ikipedia is read by English-speaking wikipedians." If this is what you meant, here's my response: the purpose of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages is the Cebuano people, not the English-speaking wikipedians. Therefore, it is NOT contrary to Wikimedia Foundation's goals to support the Cebuano Misplaced Pages even if English-speaking wikipedians do not read it. The Cebuano Misplaced Pages exists for the Cebuano community, not the English community.

You wrote: "There are lot of articles with the purpose of advocacy. Do not present the article as advocacy but present it as a neutral encyclopedic /notable article. Expect that both sides will be presented. {...} There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages."

Which articles are you referring to? I have been editing the articles in the Cebuano wikipedia since its creation last June 22, 2005, and I have never came across an article which is biased and better considered an advocacy and not as an encyclopedic entry. I do accept that I once put a notice at the top of the main page calling for all Cebuano Misplaced Pages users to vote in the Tagalog wikipedia's consensus building on renaming their wp "Filipino". But I was also the one who put back the link to tl-wp when it was removed by someone.

You are telling us that "There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages." I think it would help you if you look at our "Talk" namespace: Talk namespace of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages. When I wrote this (13:19, 22 November 2005 (UTC)), there were only 9 pages under the talk namespace, and not one of them is having the dispute that you are telling us. If you are referring the English pages, then sorry, as I assumed that you are referring to the Cebuano wp because you were writing there.

So, please, please, please, consider your comments before you say something which might be perceived differently by members of the community you are trying to talk to. I know that you are willing to help us grow, and late it may be, I thank you for your support of the use of "Cebuano" for the name of our language.

Daghang salamat Bay, ug unta magmabungahon ang imong adlaw. Manalangin kanimo ang Labawng Makagagahom.

--Bentong Isles 13:19, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Bentong, relax lang bay.

I think Jondel is talking about Misplaced Pages as a whole. And when he talks about repercussions, he is refering to the fundamental philosophy of wikipedia that this question may be touching on: could Misplaced Pages articles be truly unbiased? Could these articles be free from the characteristic of all writing: it is written from a certain framework, a certain way of looking at the world. This is a touchy subject. I don't know the answer. But even if it is impossible to write absolutely NPOV, Jondel points out the beauty of Misplaced Pages: there would probably be more than one POV; with some interplay between POV's, the article would probably come out near NPOV; if not, at least the many POV's would be represented.

I'm sure that he wasn't even refering to the Cebuano Misplaced Pages. It is just a convenient place to discuss one of the few taboos of Misplaced Pages.

And just in case you are interested, the advocacy I'm planning to promote is not Cebuano. It doens't even have anything to do with the world outside of Misplaced Pages. I'm hoping to get Wikipedians to agree with me that Filipino should not be defined in terms of ethnicity. I do not think that being Filipino could be reduced to physical characteristics. In Philippine articles, you commonly encounter statements that rest on the assumption that being Filipino means having the physical characteristics of the ethnicity generally referred to as Malay. If you question this, people will immediately accuse you of dreaming of a meztizo Philippines (the underlying assupmtion of these people is of couse Filipinos are insecure of being brown, that's why we are trying to make the Filipino mestizo.) This completely misses the point. Filipino could neither be defined as some Malay race or some mestizo race because being Filipino is beyond race!

I know that some famous academicians write with this POV (e.g., Agoncillo). This should spur us to be more vigilant in ensuring that Philippine articles should not be written from this viewpoint, because Misplaced Pages should be written from a neutral viewpoint.

This means that statements like this should be immediately annihilated:

The Philippines is composed of 95% Filipinos, 3% Chinese and 2% Spanish

A more NPOV statement would be:

The ethnic composition of the Philippines is 40% Bisaya, 24% Tagalog, 3% Chinese, etc...

or

The ethnic composition of the Filipino people is 95% Malay, 3% Chinese, etc..

(although a guy named Chris Sundita is passionately advocating that Mala is not the right word to use)

I was hoping to put into a page all these reasons why Filipino should not be defined by ethnicity. Maybe I'll just use my home page.

Matsalams! --Nino Gonzales 14:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Why should the Filipinos not be defined by ethnicity when the "Filipino" is an ethnicity itself? I am currently studying anthropology and according to what I am learning, the term Filipino fits every criteria of an ethnicity. A better way of rephrasing the above would be - 95% of Filipinos belong to one of the many ethnolinguistic groups, 3% are of Chinese ancestry, less than 1% are Spanish, etc. And yes, avoid Malay all together. --Chris S. 05:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I guess we agree that this statement is wrong: "The Philippines is composed of 95% Filipinos, 3% Chinese, etc..."? Would you help in eliminating these kind of statements?

But I guess we are not in agreement to "ethnicity". What are the criteria for a group of people to be considered an ethnicity? I guess you could be right based on your definition of ethnicity. The current Misplaced Pages definition is "An ethnic group is a culture or subculture whose members are readily distinguishable by outsiders based on traits originating from a common racial, national, linguistic, or religious source. Members of an ethnic group are often presumed to be culturally or genetically similar, although this is not in fact necessarily the case."

Common Race? Definitely not. Race is also an ambiguous concept. I read a book from a nationalist scholar saying that Filipinos belong to the Brown Race. But what would that make of Cory Aquino or Manuel Quezon? And is there really such thing as race?

Common nation? I think this is generally accepted. However, people like David Martinez are questioning this.

Common language? If this means Filipinos can speak a common language, I guess that is true. Most can speak Tagalog or English or Cebuano. But does that make Filipino an ethnicity? Most North Americans speak Engish, but that doesn't make North American an ethnicity. If the language in common language means native tongue, it couldn't be common... there are 167 right?

Common religion? Obviously not.

In my opinion, Filipinos do not belong to one ethnicity, and Filipino is not an ethnicity as defined by Misplaced Pages, and in the same way that Ilocano, Tagalog, Bisaya, Tamil, Basque, Polish is an ethnicity.

I also think that Filipino can be described by ethnicity; by % of different ethnicities. But I do not think it is beneficial to do so. I think Filipino should be defined in terms of politics or history.--Nino Gonzales 03:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Replied at Bentong's page.--Jondel 03:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Iglesia ni Cristo

Thank you for your comments at talk:Iglesia ni Cristo, as far as the article is now,it's been locked for two days, and I've taken your suggestion and opened a consensus section at Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo#Suggestions?, as a neutral party I'd appreciate your input on these matters. --LBMixPro 09:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I did.--Jondel 10:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I replied to some of them at INC's talk page. There will be a lot of work to be done with the article, since we need to cite a lot of content for this. --LBMixPro 10:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

If you check out the sources section of the talk page, there's a link to a forum post where someone transcribed an INC information booklet. The problem with it though is that it can't be verified, BECAUSE it was from a forum. --LBMixPro 08:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I got caught up with the arguments.--Jondel 08:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Arguments suck, and basically a "debate" is an argument. Makes me want to take the article to Wikinfo and build it up there. There's also a good amount of info within the archives, although about 2/3 of it is arguing from everybody involved at one time or another. LBMixPro 10:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

disruptive user

See User talk:Woohookitty#Iglesia ni Cristo for links and details about the whole situation. Blocking won't work since he's using open proxies to edit. My best bet would be for Fred Bauder to issue a WP:RFAr/AER. I'm getting sick and tired of having this article locked, as much as everybody else here. --LBMixPro 07:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Arrghh.Arbs are a lot of work for sysops. --Jondel 08:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

They are? Well, I guess I'll just take your advice. Anyways, How about the suggestions I wrote on the talk page? We've been so caught up in the Unitarian/Nontrinitarian discussion, we haven't been dealing with the other issues. --LBMixPro 08:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's time for another archival of INC's talk page, and this time I refactored the protocol section. I hope you're still able to work with the INC article in the face of all that was happening. --LBMixPro 11:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

No. Please continue your 'fight' this is what wiki is here for. I will work on what is available.--Jondel 10:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Most of the active editors have been "fighting" over the last six months, ever since the article (or WP) gained popularity. I think we all want some kind of resolution. --LBMixPro 11:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I encourage you to delete disruptive comments by anonymous ips to move faster.--Jondel 11:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Advocacy (part 2)

Presentation of facts

To make things clearer, I submit the following:

• That, on the time and date indicated in the signature in it, you wrote the following on Niño Gonzales' talk page on the Cebuano Misplaced Pages:

I wrote to you here due to possible repurcussions. I doubt this cebuano wikipedians are read by English speaking wikipedians. There are lot of articles with the purpose of advocacy. Do not present the article as advocacy but present it as a neutral encyclopedic /notable article. Expect that both sides will be presented. I wrote an article about Paco Larranaga (enye at the n) There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages. BTW, Pigafetta wrote the first Malay -Italian dictionary which should be the first Cebuano Italian dictionary because the words were Cebuano. This was written with Enrique and I am searching for this dictionary. If you known anything please let me know. --220.97.19.56 08:29, 22 Nobiyembre 2005 (UTC) Jondel from the English wikipedia.

• That, on the time and date indicated above, I wrote the reply above.
• That, on the time and date indicated in the message below, you wrote the following on my user page here on the English wikipedia:

Bentong

Please assume good faith and stop jumping to conclusions.

What is wrong with you??

You know you shouldn't interfer, but you did it any way?? What do you want me to do now? And considering that you're already a bureaucrat!!

Did you know that Seav refuses to be an administrator because he is afraid of being censured of not knowing how to behave like one? ika nya ' he should know he's an administrator.

How did my words get misinterpreted into rabidly "pro-Cebuano" web site?" ?

You know there are only a few of us Philippino wikipedians and we are our own worst enemy because we interfere, jump to the wrong conclusions and assume the worst and instead of assuming good faith and misinterpret .

STOP INTEFERING!

The reason I say advocacy is for example, is that I hope Paco Larrana will get justice which I don't feel he has now. By writing an encylopedic article I hope to bring more attention to his case. But I am neutral about presenting the article . There are sooo many similar cases.

Why are saying I thank you for your support of the use of "Cebuano" for the name of our language.

Did you know that I contributed a lot to the Cebuano language article here at wikipedia? Did you know that I contributed a lot of info about the Cebuano language and even translated or will be translating this into Spanish? You can say that I'm biased because I'm for Cebuano and have been promoting it even If I'm not a native. But that's not what you mean don't you?

> the purpose of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages is the Cebuano people, not the English-speaking wikipedians. Therefore, it is NOT contrary to Wikimedia Foundation's goals to support the Cebuano Misplaced Pages even if English-speaking wikipedians do not read it. The Cebuano Misplaced Pages exists for the Cebuano community, not the English community.

Why are you telling me something I already know? PLEASE DO NOT MISINTEPRET AND THEN ASSUME THE WORST CONCLUSION. Did you somehow misinterpret "I doubt (if) this (C)ebuano (W)ikipedia is read by English-speaking wikipedians." into being contrary to Wikimedia Foundation's goals to support the Cebuano Misplaced Pages . How did this come about???

>Which articles are you referring to? I have been editing the articles in the Cebuano wikipedia since its creation last June 22, 2005, and I have never came across an article which is biased and better considered an advocacy and not as an encyclopedic entry. I do

I have written articles about Languages in the Philippines to advocate a greater awareness to help solve language problems. (We have language problems wheter you are aware of it or not), I wrote a section in the Section in the Cebuano language to advocate that a greater awarenes of Cebuano and certain Cebuanos feel that Tagalog is unfairly dominating, at least during the time of Quezon. There is an article of Hare Krishna which is advocating there presence and awareness of their religion but is made to will appear as encyclopedic.

Please stop interfering and assuming the worst. WP:Assume good faith. Live up to being an ideal bereaucrat!! If you keep assuming the worst in Filipinos , pretty soon we will be at each other's throats. By the way, I don't understand the last paragraph.--Jondel 03:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Interpretation of facts

First, I submit that, based on your message on Nino's user page on the Cebuano Misplaced Pages, I understood you mean the Cebuano Misplaced Pages when you wrote wikipedia. I submit the following arguments for consideration:

• That, on the seventh sentence of said message, you wrote: "There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages."; and that, based on common sense and a basic understanding of the English language, the word here can only be understood to mean the Cebuano Misplaced Pages, because the message was in the Cebuano Misplaced Pages and the page itself was in the domain me of the Cebuano Misplaced Pages;
• That, here could not have meant the English Misplaced Pages, because Nino has a user page here on the English wikipedia, and if you have meant the message for the English wikipedia, you could have used his English user page.
• Aggravated further, by the second sentence, "I doubt this cebuano wikipedians are read by English speaking wikipedians.", which we, based on circumstance, have liberally taken to mean "I doubt (that) this (C)ebuano (W)ikipedia {and not wikipedians} are read by English speaking wikipedinas", because read does not have a sense for reading a person.
• Not asserting, however, that there is no possibility of a mistake, and, on the contrary, understanding that there might have been a mistake and that a message which was supposed to be put in the English user page of Nino was put on the Cebuano user page; providing, however, that if that be the case, the fault is entirely yours, as you were the one who were not very careful in checking the location of the page before you start editing it.

Second, I also submit that you meant that Nino should be careful not to write articles with a certain POV, given the following sentences:

• There are lot of articles with the purpose of advocacy. (sentence 3)
• Do not present the article as advocacy but present it as a neutral encyclopedic /notable article. (an exhortation if not a command -- sentence 4)
• There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages. (sentence 7)

I submit for consideration of the community the fact that I acted based on information I have received, and that my interpretation is a reasonable interpretation given the facts that I have referred to.

Answer

To general issues

On your message on my English user page, you assert the following:

1. I did not assume good faith. (Please assume good faith and stop jumping to conclusions.)
2. I jumped to conclusions. (Please assume good faith and stop jumping to conclusions.)
3. I am interfering.

On the third issue, I do not care to defend my case, as we haven't agreed on the proper definition of interference, and I would take the word operationally, to mean the most liberal sense it has, and that is including any and all actions which would be considered as an interference even by the most unreasonable person in the planet.

On the first and second issues, I throw to the community the question of whether I assumed good faith or not, and also the question of whether I jumped (unreasonably, I presume) to conclusions or not. That in the first place is the reason why I am quoting your messages here.

To specific issues

• On the question of what I want you to do now.

Please before you write something in someone else's user page, think that he is a member of a community, and that your words are not private to that person. What you wrote in the Nino's Cebuano user page is totally unfounded (There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages.) and therefore I felt that I must react as I am a member of the community.

• On how your words were misinterpreted to mean rabidly pro-Cebuano site

You wrote in Nino's user page that "There are lot of articles with the purpose of advocacy." (sentence 3); that Nino should "not present the article as advocacy but present it as a neutral encyclopedic /notable article." (sentence 4); that he should "Expect that both sides will be presented." (sentence 5) and finally that "There are a lot of articles here that exist for the purpose of advocacy with their corresponding disputes at the talk pages." (sentence 7). If you do not mean the Cebuano pages by this message, sorry, but the message was in the Cebuano Misplaced Pages.

• On how we Philippine wikipedians are our own worst enemies

No comment. It is interesting to note though that on Dec. 2003, the Tagalog Misplaced Pages was set up. It needed nearly two years to have the next Misplaced Pages in a Philippine language to be set up. Surprisingly, after the Cebuano and Capampangan wikipedias were set up, Waray and Ilocano followed suit immediately. And then again there is the (still open, as per wiki spirit) proposal at the Tagalog Misplaced Pages to rename themselves the Filipino Misplaced Pages. (You can browse the comments here.)

I call on the community to decide the merits of this appeal.

--Bentong Isles 08:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Problem with the cats

Hey, I was having a hearty discussion with User:CalJW. Strange that he mentioned you, for I was using other arguments. Pls see User_talk:Noypi380#Category:Philippine_sites to see what is being discussed. --Noypi380 04:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Noypi,I am grateful that we share the same views. I fail to see how a site category is not needed and don't see how others don't feel the need for this category. However as everything is done in due process I have to let things go their own way.--Jondel 04:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, that's cool. The "rename as nominated" have it. After its renamed, I'll help you out in whatever it is as named, after my vacation of course. :) --Noypi380 02:45, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Blocking disrupter at INC

I've been blocking a disrupter of the Iglesia ni Cristo.Advice?Regards.--Jondel 11:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for helping out. They have been coming to me, but I have lost track of the situation, I have too many other things to do. Don't block for long, if it is the one I used checkuser on he's coming in from all over the world from different ips.

Image:Lazykat.JPG

Hey, that might be deleted if you don't give it a source. Do you have one for it? If not tell me and I'll delete it, otherwise you should find the source so its copyright isn't in question. gren グレン 00:38, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I created it part from. I'll look into it.--Jondel 00:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It won't necessarily be checked. The tag has been on for more than 7 days so I could have deleted it but I figured that would have been pretty impolite. It makes things much easier if you put sources when you upload. gren グレン 07:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

But you can't upload without stating sources or mentioning the copyright issues. What is the point of the check box then at the upload page? I created this image.--Jondel 07:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd just save the hassle and use one of these templates: {{GFDL-self}}, {{PD-self}}, etc... --LBMixPro 09:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your support!

I'm not Danny Bonaduce, but if he ever ran, I'd get behind him. I really do think he's cool, and he should consider.Danny Bonaduce For President! 01:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm just kidding.He's an actor? Enjoy your stay here.--Jondel 01:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

My R-F-A

My adminship request was successful!
Thank you so much for your support of my RfA. The results of the request was 18/0/1. With the help of your support vote, I am now a bona-fide Misplaced Pages sysop/admin. I pledge to use my newfound powers for the good of Misplaced Pages and its editors. If you have anything to tell me, dont hesitate to "speak on it"!. --LBMixPro

Hooray! You'vwe done it boy! You've hit the big time . Now hit the mop. There 's lots of work to do. Congrats again.--Jondel 11:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd rather get my RC-Patrol pistol and play Vandal Hunt, special CVU edition.

Lazycat

Please tag Image:Lazykat.JPG appropriately or please delete it. -Thanks 02:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

newbie username question

Hi and thx for the greeting! As a reward i'll fwd you this question which, after reading around a fair bit, i posted to Misplaced Pages talk:Username :

when i fell in love with wikipedia, i made a few minor edits w/o an account. then i created one, but my legal name and common username alyosha was unavailable, so i went to ALYOSHA and made a few edits under that. then that started to feel like shouting, so im looking at settling on "alyosha". is that ok? are either of these too similar to alyosha? -- im not trying to impersonate. but alyosha will show up Alyosha, right? and are "s ok? thx for any help. "alyosha" 03:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

again, thx! "alyosha" 07:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. Do you have a user account ALYOSHA? Can you log in with a password? I'll read up on the WP:User name.--Jondel 08:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Thx for the resp! Yes re ALYOSHA, but im ready to stay "alyosha" -- it seems to look and work fine and doesnt shout. so my only remaining question is whether theyre different enough from Alyosha to meet the guideline "No confusing or misleading usernames, eg: Names which can be confused with other contributors. (If someone else is using a nickname that you wish to use, please consider using your real name or an alternative pseudonym instead. In the unlikely event that someone else is editing Misplaced Pages with your real name, please add a middle name or some other way of distinguishing between you and the existing contributor)". ? Thx again, "alyosha" 22:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The reason behind this guideline is because there are many imposters, vandalizers, hoaxers etc. Who knows , an a hoaxer could pose as you and vandalize. A lot of us don't like to have these rules but that leaves wikipedia vulnerable and abusable.--Jondel 09:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Thx yet again, and sorry to take so much of your time. I understand and support the reason for the guideline. I just want to get a stable name and get on with things, and id like to use my legal and std name, so what i still cant tell is whether the wikipedia norm is 1] Alyosha and "alyosha" are too similar; theyre typographically different but the same word, so they could be confused, => pick a more different name. Or 2] theyre different enough, like zillions of similar username situations (like alyosha vs alyosha32), so "alyosha" is fine and get back to editing! Thx, "alyosha" 19:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I've taken enough of your time. My sense is that 2 is the case, and that in fact the "s look quite distinct, so i'll stay put. Thx for your help and see ya round. "alyosha" 04:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

No you haven't taken up much of my time. Sometimes it takes me a long time to answer. I don't see anything wrong with 2] either so use it. See you around. Are you the one who edited SLAN? Great book! I wish they made it into a movie.--Jondel 08:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Pete Price

Two weeks have passed and it is still locked. -- Fplay 04:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I'm about to unlock. Thanks.--Jondel 04:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Pete Price. Not Peter Price! Please try again. -- Fplay 05:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. It should be unlocked by now.--Jondel 05:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Pedro's Photo

How do you know if it is released? What I know is it's everywhere--stampitas, posters, magazines... --Nino Gonzales 02:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Starting a Misplaced Pages in Chabacano

Hello there good friend!! I see that you have great knowledge of the Chabacano language of the Philippines. I'm thinking of starting a Misplaced Pages in Chabacano de Cavite or Chabacano de Zamboanga. Which of the two do you know more?? And oh, if you know those two Chabacano (like you know to speak them) I may ask you for some help on translations for example. So yes, take cares!!

Finally!!I've always been interested in that language. The truth is I know some Spanish not Chavacano. It seems easy to learn though. Bien venido!.Viva le revoluccion de Chavacano!--Jondel 12:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Enrique

I found a children's book in National bookstore about this guy. The writer is a certain Ms. Pacis. She says she wrote a thesis on the guy. Her thesis might have some good data for your research... --Nino Gonzales 03:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you know her full name? I will try searching through the web. The dictionary is what I need since Malaysians (and Indonesians )are claiming he is one of their natives. I need proof.--Jondel 04:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Carla Pacis... I took a look again and it didn't say thesis but research... which could mean anything...

But here's what Nick Joaquin has to say:

"He took back with him (referring to Magellan) to Portugal a Malay manservant known as Enrique of Malacca, who would join him on his 1521 voyage of discovery. The theory is that Enrique was really a Visayan, for when the Magellan expedition reached Cebu, Enrique found he could talk with the Cebuanos in their own language. He may have been a Cebuano who had gone, or was taken, to Malacca when he was a boy--or, again, may he not have been picked up by Magellan during his 1521 excursion to the Philippines?" (Culture and History p. 146)--Nino Gonzales 06:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Pigafetta

At my library I put a hold on Charles Nowell's Magellan's voyage around the world; three contemporary accounts; it should come to me by this Saturday at the earliest. I have read this book before and saw Pigafetta's mini glossary of Cebuano terms. It's not a dictionary, though.

Anyway, I decided to search Google to see if the words were there. And I did find them at Dr. Jessie Rubrico's website - she's a linguist specializes in Cebuano and other Philippine languages.

As I said, nandoon ang listahan ng mga salita - ikinumpara ni Dr. Rubrico sa modern Cebuano. Kaya lang, Jondel, ewan ko kung ang mga salitang iyon ay galing kay Enrique o sa ibang tao. Siguro malalaman natin sa libro Nowell. But yeah, Bisayang-Bisaya ang mga isinulat ni Pigafetta sa kaniyang bokabularyo - I mean "bilat" is there. hahaha. --Chris S. 05:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Merci beacoup mon ami!! This is very useful.At least as a start. I'll try incorporate this in the Enrique article. I guess I'm not too good with google searches.--Jondel 05:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Aucun problème - c'est un plaisir ! ... Ok, meron pa 'kong nahanap: Go to page 187 of The Philippine Islands 1493-1803. Pigafetta's translated account is there as well as the vocabulary. Also check this out - pages 84 and 209+. --Chris S. 05:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again. How come, in the first link you said some words may not have come from Enrique? I just have to be careful . I'll check out the second and third links now.--Jondel 05:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know the context of the words. Did Pigafetta get them from Enrique or did he get them straight from the natives of Zubu (Cebu)? Also, check out this usenet thread about Enrique. I think there is no definitive proof on Enrique's ethnicity - so you just have to present evidence from both sides. --Chris S. 08:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Enrique . I know that Pigafetta worked on the dictionary with Enrique before they arrived to the Philippines( where is that source again! ). It was supposed to be the first Italian Malay dictionary but the words were unmistakably old cebuano but recognizable to be visayan(cebuano, many words are similar to ilonggo ). I looked at the second and third links from the university website. Very good for future references but little on the dictionary. Sooner or later somebody is going to contend or dispute that Enrique is from Cebu. Be the firstest with the bestest (proof). I'll be checking your fourth link. Merci, encore. --Jondel 08:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

About the usenet thread. This seems to be a debate I already know. The definite, conclusive, undeniable proof is the purported Italian-Malay dictionary of Pigafetta. If the words were old Cebuano, this will establish that Enrique is in fact from Cebu.--Jondel 08:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Sc00t

Thanks for the speedy block. The little muppet got another one in (Burger King) but I've rvv'ed that as well. IainP (talk) 09:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Your welcome.Glad I could help.--Jondel 10:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Iglesia

Well, according to the copy of "Introducing the Iglesia ni Cristo" which is posted on the Truthfinder site and that forum, INC does believe Jesus is God.

I put it up there because it was also on the JW article as well. I'm currently looking through that booklet and summarize it even more. I'll edit the current draft in the talk page about it. --LBMixPro

If they believe that Jesus is God, then who is 'the Father' and Holy Spirit according to them. Also this contradicts their non-trinitarian stance. I 'm confused. I'll leave it to you.--Jondel 10:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's the booklet. The Father is God, the Creator. The Holy Spirit is the power God gave to his messengers to convey Christ's message, as well as the same power which helps believers with their problems. That link I sent (if accurate itself) is a goldmine of info when it comes to the beliefs of INC.--LBMixPro 11:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Admin star

Thank you for your support. I hereby award you an Admin star (8 pointed). --Ancheta Wis 16:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Father Dámaso

So, Jondel, we cross edits again, eh?

The first sentence of the Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal states that the article is about the late twentieth century underage sex scandals, not past nor continuing abuses. Maria Clara's fictional mother lived in the nineteenth century and I don't think she was underaged, as Pia and Tiago had been married and childless for many years when Damaso told them about Ubanda. The text of the RCCsas article is very focused on the present situation, especially the hierarchy's response to pedo/ephebophilia and the effects on the present-day Church, with little discussion of historical clerical abuse. So, I repeat, nothing to do with the article; no relevancy except rape 'n' priests.

The "See also" section should probably link to a more general article on clerical celibacy or clerical abuse. I will definitely unlink Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal, but after I do research for a more appropriate article. Fair enough?

→ (AllanBz ✎) 15:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Again? Which or what was the first conflict? (Bible and reincarnation?)

Written in jest; we have mostly taken the same sides in the José Rizal article.

Does the article have to be limited to underage sex scandals? The title of the article does not indicate underage sex scandal (I know the contents focus on underage sex scandals). Do you really feel it should be unlinked? The point of the link is that it is abuse is not new. There are lot of people who suffered and were degraded because of it in Philippine society. Maria Clara and real mothers went crazy in the story (and real life) under the Spanish colonial society.

I did not write that the RCCsas ought to be limited to underage sex scandals in the late twentieth century, but that is what it is. If you read the RCCsas article, it would take significant restructuring and much much more material to make it more general and thus relevant to the Damaso article. It is possible, but it would change the focus of the article entirely, and I believe that the RCCsas article's focus addresses a specific need and ought to remain a unit, though perhaps under a different title.

As you wrote yourself, lot of abuse came about due to the structure of Spanish colonialism and how it enabled corrupt priests, rather than how Church hierarchy practices enabled disordered priests. A more general article on clerical corruption or clerical abuse should point to both articles, as well as the Magdalene abuse of power (inhumane treatment of orphans or novices, wasn't it?) you mention below.

Unlink it but please understand the above. I may consider then, creating article of Historical sexual abuse of Roman Church considering that it is excluded then from article. There really was a lot of abuse and not only in the US and Mexico . The Magdelene Sisters or Reformatory should be linked. There was sexual abuse.

As I wrote earlier, I would not unlink it until I found a more relevant or general article to replace the link. I do not deny that there have been abuses of power or corrupt priests, only that the specific article link has much to do with Father Damaso. I would link Father Damaso to clerical abuse if it existed, or clerical celibacy if it had more information. It would take a lot more work on either of those or RCCsas, work I don't care to do myself.

--Jondel 16:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

→ (AllanBz ✎)) 17:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Belated Barnstar

Reverting edits

Hi, Jondel. Sorry I reverted edits to your talk page; at first glance, I thought the anon IP was editing your user page. In any case, I don't think you'll miss the edits.  ;) —Cleared as filed. 17:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

VFD

Hey, thanks for the start. I voted already too. :) --Noypi380 10:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Your welcome. :)--Jondel 23:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Appology

I appologise, I did not realize that editing the user page was vandalism. I placed my message on the discussion page as well. It shall not happen again. --HomerJay603 01:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese, hatha yoga

Hello friend! Nice to hear from you. I will be happy to help you with the Portuguese version, just show me it! As for hatha yoga, as far as I know, it is spiritually useful as it helps the body release some low-vibrational energies that would drag us to lower states of consciousness and improves our control of this physical vehicle. Of course, it´s important to focus on the use of the body as a vehicle, or hatha would be counter-productive and draw our attention excessively to the body.

I would also thank you for your help on Karma in Christianity. Shanti! Subramanian 10:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Your welcome with the Karma in C. Christians should really should know that Karma, Grace and Sin occur even in thoughts. Pls see my comment at the reincarnation page at the Spanish site. I am more oriented with Raja and thought activities. But in this yoga program, hatha is included and uh, I 'm not interested in health . But what do I know? There maybe spritiual benefits. Hopefully as you saw, the body as a vehicle would carry higher vibrations. I have to think about since it will take some time and effort. --Jondel 00:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you let your body decide :) try some of it and, if you don´t feel good after some sessions, it´s not for you.

I don´t speak Spanish, not actually. I can understand and read but not write it. We brazilians are always amazed at how easy it is for us to understand Spanish and how difficult it is for them to understand Portuguese or any other latin language - and therefore, I suppose, Interlingua. Something to do with neural and linguistic structures. Shanti. Subramanian 02:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Limiting the edits to registered users for Ethnic Groups in the Philippines

Oh all powerful admin, I would like to request for the above. This might help in improving the quality of the article. Thanks.--Nino Gonzales 03:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

all powerful? seesh. Kneel, you are stepping on holy ground! I will make a note and implement this. I hope there would be no objections .--Jondel 03:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

hehe. thanks. We're discussing guidelines in writing the Ethnic groups in the Philippines article in the Tambayan. Would appreciate your inputs! http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:TAMBAY#Guidelines_for_writing_the_Ethnic_Groups_of_the_Philippines_Article --Nino Gonzales 13:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

AfD

Pls visit AfD Cyberservices, and see an article created by the same "user" - AfD Philippine Cyberservices Corridor. Pls encourage more well known users to make a vote. I have a suspicion that there will be a flood of posts from anons, and new users in those two AfDs. Thanks. Misplaced Pages is not for promotion. --Noypi380 11:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I put in a vote at the Philippine Cyberservices Corridor. Too late for the Cyberservices, sorry.--Jondel 04:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Removal

I want to remove an image I uploaded, because I've uploaded it in wiki commons, so it's no longer nedded. How do I do this? The image is "Ikiroid.JPG".--ikiroid | (talk) 04:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

List it on Misplaced Pages:Images for deletion.--Jondel 01:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, is it that easy on the spanish, french, and experanto wikipedias? I just want them all to link to the one image in Commons.--ikiroid | (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure. For the French, I believe you just have to list it at fr:Misplaced Pages:Images à supprimer (yes, the french link). I don't know esperanto. I will investigate spanish after this.--Jondel 00:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I took care of the french one (a guy named Korg gave me a detailed explanation about how it all works in addition to what you said). If you can help me with the spanish that would be good, but I think I could figure out the esperanto one. Lol...I feel like such an idiot for uploading the image to 4 different wikipedias...--ikiroid | (talk) 02:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

There was no ] nor any of the delete images page that I could find at the Spanish wiki. Almost everyone here makes idiotic mistakes. --Jondel 04:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Apstar.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Apstar.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Misplaced Pages because of copyright law (see Misplaced Pages's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Misplaced Pages are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 01:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

That should take care of it -Thanks Nv8200p talk 14:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Nang Nak

Just wanted to come back and say that the Nang Nak article is starting to look pretty good. Well done for starting it (if you'd not bothered thinking I'd be doing it my guess is there still wouldn't be too much there). I've added some more detail from a Thai perspective on some of the cultural items (the skull crushing and who the monk is). KayEss | talk 17:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Good that you added material from the Thai perspective. More people really should watch the movie. It rates up there with Stephen King movies. I like the scary part where the wife stretches her hand all the way to the ground and the horrified husband realizes for the first time that she is a ghost. Awesome movie.--Jondel 08:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Singapore-related vandalism

In connection with a worry i express at Talk:Eli Oliveiro, would you mind taking a look at O&S Group, Eli Oliveiro, related activity back to 2006 Feb 11 on List of people by name: Ol-Oo#Oli-Oll, and 1 edit on List of Singaporeans? Does this give you any feeling of a relationship to what you warned against on Talk:List of Singaporeans?
--Jerzy•t 18:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Please look at this page

If you are a supporter of Don Bosco, take a look at this page.

• St John Bosco and LGBT edits evrik 04:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Rizal & Philippines

Ca va bien? How are you these days? Could I ask where the ine in Philippines came from? I know about King PHilip the II. Also I am looking for the etymology of ricial , the original name of Rizal. I just need leads . I am attemping a latin version. Best regards John

Oui, ça va et j'espère que tout va bien avec toi. I think the ine in Philippines and the in in Filipinas makes it into an adjective. As for Rizal - rizal > ricial > ricio > recidīvus - which is from Latin rebirth. The DRAE defines ricial as "Se dice de la tierra en que, después de cortado el trigo en verde, vuelve a nacer o retoñar" and also "Se dice de la tierra sembrada de verde para que se lo coma el ganado". If you're doing a name, you usually don't have to translate it. So I don't think it would be Josephus Recidivus or whatever, would it? --Chris S. 07:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I yes, I think so. Or rather Iosephus Recidivus since they don't want to use J over at the latin wiki. Muchas gracias.--Jondel 06:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

User subpages

How does one go about creating user subpages, like the sites on your page under "cow"?--ikiroid | (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured it out.--ikiroid | (talk) 21:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:DarthTroll.JPG)

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:DarthTroll.JPG. I notice the 'image' page currently specifies that your image can be used under a fair use license. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If your image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why your image was deleted. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Shyam 07:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Delete.--Jondel 08:42, 10 March 2006 (UTC)