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Edit request from 83.147.174.245, 2 September 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please Change "Scotch" to "Scottish" or "Scotts" because...

Scotch is an alchoholic drink and only an alchoholic drink, albeit one of Scottish origin. The people of Scotland can only be referred to as Scottish or its common abrieviation, Scotts.

This is common mistake which frequently annoys Scottish people.

Thank-you.

83.147.174.245 (talk) 02:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: The word "scotch" appears twice only in a quote. For obvious reasons the quote cannot be altered, otherwise it wouldn't be a quote. Though thanks for being bold and requesting the change. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 02:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Migration and ethnicity

I removed some material from the section on migration and ethnicity. The article's introduction states that it is about the English as an ethnic group, so presenting data on the overall population from different ethnic groups in England isn't really appropriate here. This material belongs at England instead. Also, some of the migration material related to the UK as a whole rather than to England, and it wasn't clear how recent migration related to the topic of English people. While many migrants have, of course, assimilated into an English idendity, others haven't and therefore don't generally consider themselves to be English. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I've also added some material on ethnic minorities and their relationship with English versus British identities. Comments are welcome on how to further improve this section. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Population

Why are figures of the English population in places like South Africa listed in the info box as the count up to roughly 2 000 000 people, which is more than places like NZ which are listed--Scottykira (talk) 10:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

What?--Kurtle (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Reference for resurgence of English identity

I'm not convinced that the BBC reference provided is the best source for a claim about a resurgence in English identity. I replaced it with an academic reference, though it has now been added again. While I welcome additional references (particularly since one has to have access to the journal in order to read the source I added), I'm not sure that the claims of an SNP politician are the best source for a statement of fact about the rise of English national identity. There are all sorts of reasons why he might have said such a thing, including to promote the idea that the UK should be broken up, and I don't think we can consider him an NPOV source. What would be better would be actual survey data on English identity. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree - and anyway the BBC ref is 9 years old and out of date - it can't be used as a reference for anything happening "now". Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the age of the reference is a problem, since it is being used in support of a claim about the rise in national identity in the late 1990s. Perhaps that needs to be reworded to "since the late 1990s", though, because I think that's what it intended. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Looking for better sources, perhaps this is worth using? It notes that "Most of the decline in British identity is taking place in England, where once again less than half of the population now says that 'British' is the best or only way to describe their identity. Fifteen years ago, fully 63% of people living in England went for the British identity options. Today the figure is down to 48%. The proportion who opt more naturally for an English identity is commensurately on the rise". Cordless Larry (talk) 12:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the most recent British Social Attitudes survey is here, although it specifically refers only to attitudes in England and Scotland towards devolution and Scottish independence. It says: "Support for the idea of an English Parliament has increased from 17% in 2007 to 29% now. The proportion who think England should continue to be governed by the UK Parliament has now fallen below half (49%) for the first time, and is well down on the 69% who were of that view in 1999." Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion - I've made use of that source and some others to expand and hopefully improve this section of the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I've tweaked it - including the heading, as the opening paragraph of the section questions whether there is a "resurgence". What should we say about the conflicting evidence of the two 2007 surveys - one giving 61% support for an English Parliament, the other one only 17%? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned in the article, Kumar notes that support varies according to the way the question is framed. Perhaps the 61 per cent poll simply asked whether people wanted a parliament or not, whereas the 17 per cent one presented them with a range of options and most people went from something short of an English parliament? Cordless Larry (talk) 14:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I've now replaced the source for the Newsnight poll with the original BBC article, and it did simply pose people with a yes/no/undecided choice, whereas I imagine that the BSA question was more nuanced. The BSA question also forms part of a much larger survey, in which people are perhaps more considered in their views than they would be in a poll solely on an English parliament. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the text needs a (non-OR) explanation of the range - reading it, the text goes from 16-19%, to 61%, to 17% (rising to 29%), referring to different sources - which is certainly confusing. Should there be a sentence stating simply: "Recent surveys of English identity have given widely varying conclusions" - or similar. The 61% figure stands out as odd. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully this edit makes things a bit clearer. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Spot on.  :-) Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

CL you asked for a citaion at 21:36 on 8 February 2011, I supplied one at 22:21. I am not sure why you asked for a citation because you could have used the footnote 16 but I assumed that you wanted some other person than Krishan Kumar who is already cited for that information in another section. Yet when you replaced my citation you chose to use yet another citation by KK. It seems to me that it does not hurt the article to have another sources as well as KK making the assertion, which is plain to see from the change of usage of flags by English supporters of English national teams during the 1990s. While I agree with what you have said about statistical data there is no reason why opinion pieces from reliable sources should not be used as well and a as I said in my comment when I re-added it "No need to delete one citation just to replace it with another. Political Scots are probably a good weathervane for English nationalism".

Ghmyrtle you wrote "I agree - and anyway the BBC ref is 9 years old and out of date - it can't be used as a reference for anything happening 'now'." Anything in the last 30 years is recent for a nation that has existed for well over 1,000 years. The change took place in the 1990s but that is still recent, and I do not think it should be changed to since the 1990s. The change started to happen after Maggy's victory in 1979 and the regional polarisation of MPs during the 1980s. The Scots couldn't stand her and that started to open up a divisions that exist to day.

The survey date is probably not the best to tackle this issue, a lot of it concerns specific situations, in the Commonwealth Games England is represented, but in the Olympics it is Britain as the questions during those events and the answer would probably be different. Take the example of Andy Murry in tennis, the talk is always about 75 years since the last British (no talk about the last Scotsman). Of course the London media is very good at claiming English when it an English man or Woman and saying Briton when the person is from the Celtic fringe.

As for support for an English Parliament. The current Westminster parliament is the English parliament, because it has carried through all the privileges and traditions of the English parliament (and not those of the others). The pantomime of Black Rod at the opening of a parliament being one of the more flamboyant ones. -- PBS (talk) 22:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know whether the Kumar book attributes a rise in English identity to devolution, so I didn't want to use that as a source. I haven't replaced it with another Kumar article, but with an article from the Economist. I'm somewhat confused by your recent edit because your new wording suggests that the rise having been caused by devolution is a fact, whereas the material later on makes it clear that not everyone agrees that this is the case. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, I've checked the footnote you suggested above and it is a reference to a book called The Rise of English National Identity, published by Cambridge University Press in 1997. I can't for the life of me find any record of this book existing. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Apologies for my inaccurate edit summary - I hadn't realised PBS had commented here. Anyway, I've reverted his changes - I can't see any way in which they are more encyclopedic, helpful or accurate than Cordless Larry's version earlier, which I support. Statements from 9 years ago are just that - in discussing the current position and recent developments, they are of historic interest only. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:25, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle, regarding this edit, I wonder if the phrase "non-English MPs" is potentially confusing. It's not the identity of the MP but the constituency they represent that matters, and an English MP and an MP representing an English-constituency are slightly different things. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree - done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Another issue is with the sentence "A rise in English self-consciousness has resulted, with increased use of the English flag". What is the article saying this is a result of? The West Lothian question, or the actions of the Campaign for an English Parliament, or something else? A change of wording needs to clear this up. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree - the sentence cites Kumar, so what he said needs to be identified more clearly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that the reference is to the apparently non-existent Kumar book. I presume that it should be to his The Making of English National Identity (CUP, 2003) but, not having a copy, it's hard to verify exactly what he says. Cordless Larry (talk) 00:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Statements from 9 years ago are relevant for things that append in the 1990s. I wonder how you think that anything that happened 10 years ago is not current on a history that stretches over 1,000 years. Ghmyrtle I was going to revert your revert because I had made some other changes in separated edits to which you had not commented, but I see that CL has already done so.

I reverted the start of the section to that which was there yesterday I am more than willing to discuss alternative wording (although devolved powers just the most obvious manifestation of nationalism in the other parts of Great Britain (Ireland is somewhat different) that the English have been reacting to. As I explained in the edit history "some commentators" implies most do not agree yet no commentators who disagree with the resurgence have been cited.

As to the link to the footnote I gave it was an assumption of good faith to a footnote on the same issue not because I have checked it recently. However a little browsing turned up this and a little create use of search facility for "Jeremy Paxman" and other terms allows the pages in the book to be read, so it was a simple dating mistake. I have now fixed that and reformatted all the other Kumar in-citations. -- PBS (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

PBS, regarding your point that "no commentators who disagree with the resurgence have been cited", I've taken a look again at the sources and you're correct that they don't really deny that there has been a rising identification with Englishness (though the Condor et al. reference denies that there has been a decline in Britishness in England). What I have more of a problem with, though, is the material introduced in your edit that attributes this to devolution ("spurred by devolution in the 1990s of some powers to the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales"). This is something that several of the sources dispute. Can I therefore suggest that we go for a first sentence of "The late 1990s saw a resurgence of English national identity". This can be supported by the Kumar book and the Economist article. We then have a sentence about the survey data, and then the third sentence can read "Some commentators have attributed this to the devolution in the late 1990s of some powers to the Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales, although others question whether devolution has in fact led to a rise in English national identity and argue that survey data fails to portray the complex nature of national identities, with many people considering themselves both English and British". Cordless Larry (talk) 14:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

As I said above I am not wedded to the previous wording but when changing something just added, that one thinks is incorrect, it is better to revert to the original than to put in yet a third set of words. So I did not introduce anything I reverted to the previous wording that I happen to think is better than the current wording. The point is that devolution is a manifestation of rising nationalism in the other parts of the UK and the rising of nationalism in England is a reaction to that. The reassertion of English nationalism is reactive not proactive, and the best indication of the rise in Englishness is the rise in the use of the Cross of Saint George which up until the 1990s had been relegated to use on some Anglican Churches depending on which was their patron saint. Now the Cross of Saint George flies everywhere when an English national team is playing football, a generation ago (1966 world cup) it was the union flag. -- PBS (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, so what do you think about my suggested wording above? I think we can expand upon the flags point at the same time as clarifying the Kumar claim about this (see below). Cordless Larry (talk) 19:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

That last point should have read "(see above)", obviously. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Which sources dispute that rise in English nationalism was a reaction to the rise in nationalism in Scotland and Wales of which devolution is the most concrete example? With an unsophisticated general Google search it is easy to find papers that support that interpretation Here are some political sources that says it was.(page 10)

Here is a paper taken from a search of ac.uk: Sheila Watson (lecturer in the Department of Museum Studies at the University of Leicester): ‘England expects’: Nelson as a symbol of local and national identity

However, research in the Norfolk Nelson Museum suggests that a debate is taking place at a local level about what it means to be English and museums are one of the public places where symbols of English national identity are being re-examined and re-interpreted. ... Thus English identity rooted in a white past could be seen as being constructed in opposition to ethnic minority identity in a multicultural present. However, this is too simple an interpretation. Within the museum devolution was also cited as a reason for an increased English self awareness along with a grievance that the English are not allowed to take pride in history if it means offending another country (here the French).

— pages 144,145 (last and first paragraphs)

The paper makes a number of other points including:

This

general conflation of Britain and England which is common everywhere in England is well

documented (for example, Kumar 2003: 234, Colls 2002: 377)

— page 141

A search on "The English Question" also throws up a lot of papers. this one gives an overview. As include the "West Lothian Question" perhaps we could tease out the rise of English Nationalism and separate out the constitutional question with a paragraph on "The English Question".

--PBS (talk) 07:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The Condor et al. paper suggests that the rise in English identity at the expense of British identity that was expected as a result of devolution has not materialised. The Kenny et al. paper also dates the rise in identification with Englishness to before devolution. I agree that most commentators put it down to devolution, but that point is that not all do. We need a wording that conveys that. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:01, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

See also this on the trend predating devolution. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The implementation of devolution took place under the last labour government but that was not when the question was first raised at a national level for example the discussions that bought about the West Lothian Question happened back in November 1977. Devolution has been an issue since the 1970s. AFAICT was not until then that that the inhabitants of Great Britain (or at least England) had given any thought to whether there was a distinction worth thinking about for well over a hundred years. Also I think that for many people in England the question of Britishness or Englishness--my on-line spelling checker has "Britishness" but not "Englishness"!--is to a degree irrelevant, as the two are closely linked. For a Scotsman (or woman) to be asked this question has implications of independence. But practically and legally England would be the successor state to Britain if ever it were to be a breakup, (inhabitance of countries like France and Germany would not even have to change the common name they use for the UK!) so the distinction is to a large degree academic, which is why most English people have to think about it and probably do not give answer to the question the gravity other members of the union would. -- PBS (talk) 19:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

English/Welsh

From the article: "Another complication in defining the English is a common tendency for the words "English" and "British" to be used interchangeably. In his study of English identity, Krishan Kumar describes a common slip of the tongue in which people say "English, I mean British". He notes that this slip is normally made only by the English themselves and by foreigners: "Non-English members of the United Kingdom rarely say 'British' when they mean 'English'"." There is a passage in Kingsley Amis's memoirs which would, rightly, extend this to cover the South Welsh (talking about the 1950s), also using the terms interchangeably. Johnbod (talk) 12:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you're saying that Kingsley Amis argues that "British" and "English" are often elided in south Wales? That's interesting but I'm not sure whether a memoir is the best source for this, considering that the existing source is a proper academic study. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. He of of course was an academic, & did have the advantage of living there for several years. I wonder how big Kumar's sample size was, and so on? In areas like this, one should not rely wholly on individual papers. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but my point is that the Kumar quote is based on academic research (I'm not aware of his methods, so I don't know whether there is a "sample size" to speak of), whereas from what you've said the Amis comments are just a passing reference in a memoir. It would be good to see the source before commenting further, however. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that attitudes have changed in Wales a lot over the last 60 or so years - there is almost certainly a much higher awareness of Welsh identity now, for a whole range of reasons. (I live in S Wales, by the way.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

In countries such as Germany, the common term for British is English. However in England I would suggest that people frequently say British/Britain when they mean English/England. Such as "Cricket is the summer sport in Britain", this mistake happens because so many English people do not have a clear differentiation in their minds between England and Britain. Something which for generations from the act of Union in 1707 was strongly encouraged by successive British governments of all hews to suppress individual nationalism in the constituent nations. -- PBS (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

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The most common genetic fingerprint of British people actualy belongs to the Celtic clan and not Germanic tribes.

Scientists have discovered the British are descended from a tribe of Spanish fishermen. DNA analysis has found the Celts — Britain's indigenous population — have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to a tribe of Iberians from the coastal regions of Spain who crossed the Bay of Biscay almost 6,000 years ago.

A team led by Professor Sykes — who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles — spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

source: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367572-ancient-britons-come-mainly-from-spain.do — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.38.205 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 16 April 2011

Sykes' theories are already mentioned in the section on English ethnicity. His views are contested - see Genetic history of the British Isles. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:24, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

i have researched page history and found that user:Alphasinus version of the article was the best ever (the english people are a germanic ethic group

As with the German people article saying the germans are a germanic people so does the english people article ,it also gives more clarification and more useful informationGermanlight 14:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted your edit. firstly, it's dsiputed that the "English" are "Germanic" since there is a significant celtic element and also some experts believe that only a Germanic ruling elite came to england and the majority continued to be the pre-existing celts. secondly, the English now include large numbers of people who immigrated in the last century, particularly from the Carribean and the Indian sub-continent. (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

As Ghmyrtle said : Sykes' theories are already mentioned in the section on English ethnicity. His views are contested - see Genetic history of the British IslesGermanlight 15:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The introduction needs to give a balanced picture, summarising the further explanation in the main text. The established text does that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

No it doesnt , the truth itself is the most balancedGermanlight 16:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

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