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Archived topics

Untitled

• "Imperialist" - 16:15, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
• Do it for mummu - 03:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
• archaeohistory - (unsigned)
• Vandalism or erroneous deletion? - 04:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
• Citations - May 23 2:12 AM 2006 (UTC)
• Sexual Orientation - 03:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC) to 14:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Neville Pickering - 15:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• ideas section - 21:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
• Portrait - 03:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
• Was Rhodes a smoker - 29 August 2007 (UTC)
• What secret society did he found? - 17:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
• Rhodes the imperialist - 12:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• "Rohdes" in photo caption - 21:54, 16 November 2007
• Childhood in England - 05:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Forced Labour - 18:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Princess Radziwill - 09:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
• Charles Metcalfe - 10:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
• Add to LGBT Project? - 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
• Rhodes House Photo - 20:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Legacy - 10:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
• Connection to Rhode Island - 04:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• speculation vs examination - 14:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
• Last words - 06:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
• "a white supremacist" - 11:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Details of "ill health" and death, please

"he was dogged by ill health throughout his relatively short life. Rhodes died in 1902"
His "ill health" being what, exactly?
Cause of death; what, exactly?
Details, please (with cites). -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Massie: Dreadnought, Britain, Germany and the coming of the Great War, p.230 "Rhodes lived only six years after the raid. He suffered from cardiovascular disease, which he helped along by eating huge slabs of meat, drinking throughout the day, and smoking incessantly. His body near the end was bloated, his cheeks blotched and flabby, his eyes watery. His high-pitched voice became almost shrill: his handshake, offered with only two fingers of the hand extended, was weak; his letters, which had always ignored punctuation, left out words to the point of incoherence." if that helps. Sandpiper (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC) Colvin syas he had an aneurysm which was pressing on his heart and lungs. Sandpiper (talk) 09:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Rotburg, R - The Founder concurs - aortic aneurysm. Interestingly the book speculates (p676) that this might have arisen due to syphilis, though the most likely explanation is advanced arteriosclerosis, not helped by the large appetite for alcohol, tobacco, and food noted above. This said, as the book notes, it does not really explain his earlier various 'heart attacks' in 1872, 1877, and the 1880s. --Xdamr 11:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

W T Stead 'The will of Cecil rhodes' , says p177, 'the result of the post mortem examination showed that with the exception of the aneurism of the heart, which caused an immense distension of that organ, he was in a perfectly healthy state. The heart trouble had been with him from his youth. when he attained manhood it abated somewhat, but after his fortieth year it returned and gradually increased until his death'. The times obituary article said the illness recurred when he returned to England to go to oxford, which is why he interrupted his studies to return to SA. Though the timing mentioned does not seem right. I'm not quite clear whether this just means classic heart disease which causes the heart to swell?Sandpiper (talk) 02:42, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Sexuality - weasel words

I think we need some clarification here about how we handle the issue of quotations from academic sources before we proceed. The section includes a direct quote from the academic Richard Brown who says:

"On the issue of Rhodes' sexuality... there is, once again, simply not enough reliable evidence to reach firm, irrefutable conclusions. It is inferred, but not proved, that Rhodes was homosexual and it is assumed (but not proved) that his relationships with men were sometimes physical."

It has been suggested that we name those that 'infer' and those that 'assume'. But aren't we simply summarising Brown's own conclusions and isn't it for the reader to go to read Brown if they want to know more about the whos and the whys? Otherwise it's not really workable is it? Contaldo80 (talk) 13:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(I think you are being very polite. I'm getting grumpy about people who insist on "correcting" quotes.)

Yes, Brown did use "weasel words". Yes, Brown could have been less vague. But he wasn't.

It's a quote! (That's why it has those " thingies around it.)

In the case of unusual grammar in a quote, one can put (sic), but I don't think there is a similar such mechanism for acknowledging that an author has been vague.

"It has been suggested that we name those that 'infer' and those that 'assume'." - Indeed it has. However, it wasn't "us" who used the words 'infer' and 'assume', it was Mr Brown. (And even if Mr Brown were still alive, I doubt he would rewrite his book as a convenience to wikipedia.)

No, we're not summarising Brown, we're quoting him.

Yes, it is for the reader to go to read Brown if they want to know more.

Yes indeed - otherwise it is NOT workable, and never has been.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

<Section not relevant to the article has been archived.>

Sexuality - Jameson

Peculiar little cut there? Came here because i was just reading Massie: Dreadnought, Britain , Germany and the coming of the great war, and we just got to Rhodes. Massie keeps surprising me by presenting evidence on people's sexuality and then not drawing the bottom line. So wondered what was here. Massie's little understatements are to say about Leander star Jameson that: ' he met rhodes his first day in Kimberley and, "we drew closely together", Jameson said. Rhodes moved into Jameson's one storey corrugated-iron bungalow, where the two lifelong batchelors shared two untidy bedrooms and a sitting room. "we walked and rode together", Jameson continued, "shared our meals, exchanged our views on men and things and discussed his big schemes,".' Fancy. Then later he says, 'In 1896 when Groote Schuur was gutted by fire , Rhodes was told that there was bad news. He knew that Jameson was ill: now, his face went white, he said, "Do not tell me that Jameson is dead". When he heard about the fire he flushed in relief. "Thank goodness" he said. "If Dr. Jim had died I should never have got over it. Jameson was at Rhodes side in March 1902 when the Colossus at forty eight, met his own death.'

Massie seems to agree that there is little evidence, but quite plainly is hinting by his choice of inclusions that Jameson and Rhodes were lovers. Interesting that in this case of insufficient evidence the article suggests another candidate, neville Pickering. Sandpiper (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see the article on Jameson fails to explain they lived together in Kimberley, but says Jameson was buried beside Rhodes. Well, how nice. Sandpiper (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Very happy to include something on Jamieson in this Rhodes article if you can suggest something. Agree better to at least refer. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not proposing going overboard on this. The earlier debate seemed to suggest some people wanting to ditch mention of his sexuality entirely, in part on the grounds it could not be referenced. Nor am I an expert on him to say whether or not it is really true there is insufficient evidence to judge. Massie seems to like to at least appear to sit on the fence (on other issues as well), but the description he has chosen to use doesn't leave much doubt as to his views, if you stop to consider it from this perspective. I mean, a quote that he and Jameson liked to talk about men? Obviously this could be entirely innocent, they lived in an almost exclusively male town, but just highlighting these particular quotes? Maybe he writes it this way so that it can go over the head of anyone not thinking about that aspect. People here challeneged the relevancy of mentioning sexuality. I think that ridiculous because quite clearly it still matters in society and would have mattered very much more at the time he was alive. The article about Jameson and the Jameson raids talks about that incident being out of character for him: pretty plainly he was put in charge of the raid by Rhodes because of a relationship of trust between them, whatever else.

Having said all that about the importance of addressing this issue, it seemed to me at least a question whether if one person is named as a possible lover, then other people who have also been suggested should get a mention too. I don't know if anyone is more knowledgeable about this and knows if any author has compiled a list? I was most amused reading around this in other articles that Jameson knew Kipling and Ian Hamilton, and that Kipling wrote 'If' about Jameson. Apparently Jameson's portrait still hangs in Kipling's old house. Obviously, all these people were part of the ruling elite in South Africa, so there is an entirely conventional explanation for how they came to meet, but they seem to have something else in common.Sandpiper (talk) 10:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting stuff, and as Contaldo says/implies, it sounds like it's worthy of inclusion. You have the texts, what do you suggest be included? (It sounds like that, on this occassion, referencing the information will not be a problem.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Heres a quote from 'The life of Jameson' by Ian Colvin 1922. Jameson nursed Rhodes through his final illness with singular devotion. p. 209 "Some hours afterwards Jameson uncovered the dead face that Jourdan might take a last look at his master. ' His Roman features,' says Jourdan, ' were more pronounced than I had ever seen them in life.Even in death he looked determined, dignified, and masterful.' The secretary, in his desolation, still could see that Jameson was ' fighting against his own grief. ... No mother could have displayed greater tenderness towards the remains of a loved son.'

Colvin also seems to have written a life of Rhodes, which has a much more sober description of the death scene and is dedicated 'to his friend LSJ from IDC'. LSJ then being still alive. Sandpiper (talk) 04:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Stead, The last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes, p. 190, says the last word he spoke was 'Jameson' (while stretching out his hand to him). Sandpiper (talk) 01:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Think your addition looks good. Of course the next issue is whether we add anything into the Jameson article to show the links with Rhodes? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I find wiki biographies are often stronger on dates and places than on personal details about the character of the people concerned. The Jameson article does state he was buried alongside Rhodes and then quotes a poem about separated lovers, but I know what you mean. To do so though means finding someone addressing the issue from the Jameson side. Then again, If Jamesons entire motivation in his career was to be with Rhodes, that is quite important and maybe a more human explanation of his life than the quotes there now saying his motivation was patriotism. There was a comment in Colvin, I think, where Jameson said after Rhodes death he could now go home to England for a rest. Though he never gave up trying to carry out Rhodes' wishes. Sandpiper (talk) 19:03, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Quotations section

This section was sourced and arguably relevant, so I'm putting it on the talk page for discussion/improvement rather than simply removing it, but I strongly dislike "memorable quotes" sections - that's what Wikiquote is for - so I did take it out of the article. If we're going to discuss the influence of some of these quotes, that's fine. It should be in prose form and worked into the article. In the case of the first quotation, it's important to establish why the quote is famous and what impact it had. What makes it relevant to the Misplaced Pages article rather than simply Wikiquote? (Recognizance (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC))

With regard to the first quote, I note that at least one author about Rhodes put it in their book, because I saw it there recently. As wih anything wiki, if someone extenally thinks a think is relevant, we do too. A quote is no different to any other piece of information about a subjetc. If it sheds light on the subject then it is pat of the material we consider when compiling an article. What is not relevant about 'i would annexe the planets if I could'? Sandpiper (talk)

I was tempted to remove the popular culture section in a similar vein (i.e. not permanently, just for re-organisation) but left it for now. It should be worked into a legacy/influence section though, of which the quotes can certainly play a part. Recognizance (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't agree so I have reinserted it into the article. I think that setting a figure in context is extremely important. If someone still has an influence in popular culture, or did historically, then that should be mentioned. What wikiquote do is up to them. What encyclopedia britannica do is up to them. I do not cut things from here because they also happen to be in encyclopedia britanica, nor because they also happen to be on wikiquote. You just conceded it is sourced and relevant. Sandpiper (talk) 08:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to indicate context and influence, include it in the body of the main article. general suggestion is that such a segment not be included. Ironholds (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

As you point out, that view is just a suggestion but even aside from that I dont really see that is says anything about whether to have a section dedicated to interesting quotes by the subject of the article. Sandpiper (talk) 14:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Can I suggest opening a Request for Comment on this matter? It'll get a few more (far more knowledgeable than I) eyes on it. Ironholds (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Recognizance and Ironholds. For what it's worth, (and that probably isn't much), I tend to support Sandpiper's POV. I guess I'm an inclusionsist - in my POV, the more relevant information there is in the one place, the better.

"but I strongly dislike "memorable quotes" sections" - Well OK, you're entitled to your opinion, but "WP:I just don't like it" is insufficient justification for removing sourced material.

(As it happens, I like such sections; as with the seemingly endless debate about Rhodes' sexuality (or lack thereof), it goes to giving some understanding of the nature, personality, character, etc. of the person.) Technically, many of your points are accompanied by excellent suggestions. But I see them from the "both/and" side, rather than the "either/or" side.

Two examples:

• "What makes it relevant to the Misplaced Pages article rather than simply Wikiquote?" - (I explained above what makes it relevant to the Misplaced Pages article.) I don't see why it can't appear in both places. As Sandpiper says, "What wikiquote ... ... encyclopedia britannica do is up to them."
• "If you want to indicate context and influence, include it in the body of the main article." - I would argue, that is an additional/different function from the function of illustrating "the nature of the person". I don't see why the article can not address both functions - I don't see why it has to be an "either/or" thing.

(As for WP:RFC: I've never experienced it, and hence have no (useful) opinion on the matter.)

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It is excellent, yes, but it's a standalone quotes list. If you want to properly illustrate the character, weave it into prose. RfCs can be useful for getting more eyes on a discussion; say the word and I'll set one up. Ironholds (talk) 09:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry - what is excellent?

"but it's a standalone quotes list" - Ummmm. Sorry, I don't follow. What's your point here?

"If you want to ... "' - Errrrr. I've already addressed that point. Am I missing something?

--Pdfpdf (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

1) the list, 2) it provides no way of illustrating Rhodes' personality because it's just... sitting there. It isn't weaved in with any prose to give context, there is no way for the reader to know exactly what it's trying to illustrate and it detracts from the encyclopedic feel of the article. Give me a poke if you'd like an RfC as a means of getting more opinions, or just a posting on the content noticeboard. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Quotations

]
Rhodes famously declared: "To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annex the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far."

“We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies (disputed quote -sourcing needed). The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.”

“Pure philanthropy is very well in its way but philanthropy plus five percent is a good deal better.”

"I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race...If there be a God, I think that what he would like me to do is paint as much of the map of Africa British Red as possible..."

"In order to save the forty million inhabitants of the United Kingdom from a bloody civil war, our colonial statesmen must acquire new lands for settling the surplus population of this country, to provide new markets... The Empire, as I have always said, is a bread and butter question"

"To be born English is to win first prize in the lottery of life."

1. S. Gertrude Millin, Rhodes, London, 1933, p.138
2. Wong, Melody. "Teaching a "Racist and Outdated Text": A Journey into my own Heart of Darkness". Western Washington University. Retrieved 2008-09-20.
3. Britten, Sarah (2006). The Art of the South African Insult. 30° South Publishers. p. 167. ISBN 9781920143053.
4. Johari, J. C. (1993). Voices of Indian Freedom Movement. Anmol Publications PVT. LTD. p. 207. ISBN 9788171582259.
5. "The Story of Africa". BBC World Service. Retrieved 2009-06-13.
6. William Simpson; Martin Desmond Jones (2000). "Googleooks entry". Europe, 1783-1914. Routledge. Retrieved 2009-06-13.
7. "England on guard as world takes aim in Twenty20 stakes". The Telegraph. 31 May 2009. Retrieved 2009-06-13.

"Lottery" quote

Eminent though the Daily Telegraph is, I am unconvinced that a sports article in a newspaper is adequate as a reference, especially as most www sources provide the following version “Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life”. I don't feel qualified to make a change, but someone may want to review the quaotation. 122.107.58.27 (talk) 09:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Yes, I can't say I'm convinced, either.

It seems you are indeed correct on the wording.

My problem is that I can't find a "reliable" source:

• http://en.wikiquote.org/Cecil_Rhodes - No source quoted
• http://en.wikiquote.org/England - No source quoted
• http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/the-lottery-of-life-683751.html - "The lottery of life", The Independent, 5 May 2001, www.independent.co.uk - Again, no source quoted. Being an Ozzie, I'm unfamiliar with "The Independent"; is it "a reliable source"? - (I'll use it until someone tells me otherwise.)
• http://thinkexist.com/quotation/remember_that_you_are_an_englishman-and_have/187784.html - Unsourced. Unknown reliability.
• http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2449746402 - Facebook. Facebook? - Unsourced.
• Etc. (Google returns 3000+). But I've yet to find a source.

Do you have a reliable source?

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

(P.S. "I don't feel qualified to make a change" - You are no less "qualified" than anyone else! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

Unfortunately, no "reliable" source - part of my lack of being qualified. I hoped someone editng this story would have access to a more authoritative source. It certainly sounds like something he would have said - perhaps Independent et al 122.107.58.27 (talk) 08:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear! Sorry - I'm afraid I haven't been anyone's "knight in shining armour" for decades. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

"cheap slave labour" quote

• “We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.”<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.wce.wwu.edu/Resources/CEP/eJournal/v003n001/a025.shtml |title=Teaching a “Racist and Outdated Text”: A Journey into my own Heart of Darkness |last=Wong |first=Melody |publisher=Western Washington University |accessdate=2008-09-20}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Britten |first=Sarah |title=The Art of the South African Insult |publisher=30° South Publishers |year=2006 |pages=167 |isbn=9781920143053}}</ref>

The wording in this quote disputed:

1. It is contended (I remember reading it, but can not relocate it!) that, at the time this quote was made, slavery was no longer "an issue" in Africa.

2. The quoted text quotes "Bigelow & Peterson, 2002, p. 44" as the source. Page 44 of Bigelow & Peterson is about "1562: Conquistadores Destroy Native Libraries", and bears no relevance to Africa.

3. Also quoted is: "The Art of the South African Insult" - Can anyone find a copy of pg.167 and tell us what it says?

1. - It is contended ...

2. - "Bigelow & Peterson, 2002, p. 44"

The quoted source (http://www.wce.wwu.edu/Resources/CEP/eJournal/v003n001/a025.shtml) says:

Against his high-minded rhetoric, I juxtapose the comments of Leopold’s contemporary—the late 19th century British colonialist, co-founder of the De Beers diamond company, and eventual first prime minister of South Africa, Cecil Rhodes: “We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labour that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories” (as cited in Bigelow & Peterson, 2002, p. 44).

"Bigelow & Peterson" is: Bigelow, B. & Peterson, B. (Eds.). (2002). Rethinking globalization: Teaching for justice in an unjust world. Milwaukee, WI: Rethinking Schools Ltd. Bigelow & Peterson's table of contents (http://www.rethinkingschools.org/publication/rg/RGTable.shtml#legacy) says:

• Burning Books and Destroying Peoples — 38 by Bob Peterson
• 1562: Conquistadores Destroy Native Libraries — 43 by Eduardo Galeano
• The Coming of the Pink Cheeks — 45 by Chief Kabongo as told to Richard St. Barbe Baker
• Song of Lawino: A Lament — 50 by Okot p'Bitek

(I suspect "p. 44" is wrong - somewhere in pp45-49 seems more likely)

Anyway:

• http://urbandreams.ousd.k12.ca.us/lessonplans/core/11/silko/docs/TheComingofthePinkCheeks.doc The Coming of the Pink Cheeks, Chief Kabongo, a told to Richard St. Barbe’ Baker; reprinted from Richard St. Barbe’ Baker. Kabongo London: George Ronald, 1955, 107-26. Reprinted by permission of A. S. Barnes & Co. and George Ronald. - Interesting reading, but makes no mention of "Rhodes" or "slave".
• The post-colonial studies reader By Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffiths, Helen Tiffin, pg547 gives another reference

It would seem that tracking down the sources of these quotes is "difficult"! Pdfpdf (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

3. "The Art of the South African Insult"

Pdfpdf (talk) 11:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Rhodesia -- the historical facts

In the introdution of this article it is stated that the state of Rhodesia split into Northern and Southern Rhodesia after independence. Not so. Northern and Southern Rhodesia existed as separate entities under the British flag before independence. When Northern Rhodesia became independent it became Zambia. Thereafter Southern Rhodesia had a name change to become just Rhodesia in the UDI period of Ian Smith -- and at last became Zimbabwe upon receiving its true independence from Britain.
Mieliestronk (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you have some references we can quote in support of the above information? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 23:54, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

(P.S. Please "sign" your postings on talk pages using 4 "~" (i.e. ~~~~ )

Quotes section

I support a move to Wikiquote. Socrates2008 (Talk) 12:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

That's nice. However, it would be both more interesting and more useful to know WHY you support such a move. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the move to Wikiquote, and I can see that this was discussed earlier in this section, which have points that I agree with against keeping the quotes in here. I think "Overusing quotations" applies here; the quote section has quotes that have no context. Gary King (talk · scripts) 00:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Concur with Gary King on all points. Socrates2008 (Talk) 12:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Diamonds

An individual named Fourie is mentioned as being the owner of Vooruitzigt, while he allowed the de Beer brothers to cultivate the farm. This is not known to be historically correct, as the de Beer brothers could not have sold a farm they did not own. The region was part of the British empire at the time, and as such, there was a record of the legal owner, and the De Beers mine is unlikely to have been named for them if they were not the owners. Other reseach also states that the De Beer brothers could not control the flow of prospectors, so they sold the farm for what they thought was a very attractive profit. According to British law related to minerals during this period, an individual could not establish a large claim. A business entity was however able to control it. There is a wealth of information freely available. I would appreciate either more detail or the removal of the name Fourie from the paragraph. I consider to article to be incomplete, and without more information about who actually owned the farm other than the De Beer brothers, this paragraph looses some credibility.

~LDB - June 9, 2011~

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