Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:22, 13 June 2011

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Δ. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Thoughts on the AN discussion

I find the fact that many people are seeking more restrictions on me asinine. Other than the one outburst I have remained very civil. If you don't like policy get it changed, don't shoot the messenger. Here is a counter proposal, people want me to communicate more, when I do communicate people don't listen, take for example the issue with currency recently, there where countless notification across multiple talk pages and wikiprojects. The users dont give a fuck until me and Hammersoft actually start removing the overuse (after a month of attempted discussions). Also take a look at Template:Politics of South Africa I left a explicitly clear reason for the edit twice and was reverted both times because of WP:ILIKEIT completely ignoring the core policy which is non-negotiable about NFC in userspace/templates. Here is my proposal create standard set of templates (the uw style works well) about incorrect usage of NFC, add it to twinkle and stress that files must be left out until the issues are resolved with them. If the issues are not resolved and the users insist on ignoring policy, admins must be willing to step in, and either protect the image free article, delete said files, or block the user until they get the point. I often try to explain NFC but too many users refuse to listen. Adding more restrictions on me will not solve the problem, we need a wider community push to get files in line with policy. This worked fairly well back in 2007-2008 with both the TV episode image removal and the push to ensure that all files have at least one rationale. Another request that should be made, (and Ive asked for this for years and have been ignored) is that admins who monitor both my talk page and the discussions I'm in would actually do something about the personal attacks directed towards me, instead of ignoring them, we could avoid situations like what recently happened when I was insulted and attacked one too many times by the same user. ΔT 14:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

NFC warning templates would be useful - perhaps you could draft something for that. I would also be willing to conditionally unblock you in order to participate in (i) the AN discussion about your possible sanction and (ii) the NFCC enforcement RFC. (This would be under a very generous interpretation of Misplaced Pages:BLOCK#Temporary_circumstances_unblocks, because of the role of NFCC in your editing and in your edit restrictions.) Editing any other pages, however virtuously or trivially (until your 1-week block expires, i.e. 14.41 6 June, UTC), would result in a reinstatement and doubling of the original block. If you'd like that conditional unblock, let me know; if you're afraid you might not stick to it, then don't go for it. Rd232 14:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• With regards to the RfC, I haven't contributed because I think it's a dead end. Many people, myself included, have tried to get the community to a better place with regards to NFC and NFCC. It never works. It's a permanently broken system, but it's all we have. Consensus will never move it towards a better place, even if the former or latter existed. Wear I tend to exert my energies is in defending the (horribly stupid, ultimately unenforceable, badly corrupted) line in the sand we have. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

1. @Δ: I heartily agree, as you know, with the core issues you raise. If it had been me who gutted the numismatics articles rather than you, this debate would not have spun out of control. Why? Because when you're involved, people start invoking the past in an attempt to win the future. It's wrong, absolutely wrong, and an extremely strong reason to suspend the sanctions and have ArbCom explicitly state that use of past sanctions in disputes is irresponsible.
2. That said, you have repeatedly violated the edit throttle. That was wrong, and there's no disputing that. I do think it's highly improper for people to scream about the edit throttle being violated without pointing to any actual damage caused when the throttle was violated. It's like a "we got you because we wanted to get you, not because you're hurting the project" situation. It again goes back to invoking the past to win the future. Still, you know the throttle is in place and violated it anyways. I'd hate to be under a throttle like that. It would be damned difficult to adhere to.
3. You don't communicate well. You know it, I know it, so do lots of other people. That's not an attack but objective assessment. Everybody has their limitations. Some situations that you get involved in could be cooled down with more communication. Since that communication isn't your strong suit, passing such situations off to others to handle would be a good idea I think. I'll raise my hand and volunteer for this. Whether there's a new restriction or not, if you come across a situation where you've removed something and later reverted it's reinstatement only to have it removed again, let me know. I'll take care of it. At that point, just step back from it and move on to something else.
4. Personal insults are rampant on the project. If you look at the body of attacks and the actual responses, the policy is effectively unenforced to the point that the policy has no standing anymore. I am routinely insulted. Portions of my userpage are an homage to that. I can't tell you how many times I've reported being insulted. Result? Nothing. I was even told I was the most ignorant and disrespectful editor on Misplaced Pages, and the people reviewing it declared it wasn't a personal attack. This is far from isolated. It happens all the time. Administrators simply don't want to step into the middle of such drama, and ignore it. We can't change that. The project has, as a whole, gotten to a point where fringe opinion adherents are treated almost with reverence in terms of how much bullshit they can get away with. An editor with considerable experience has almost no leeway. That's reality. I don't know what the solution is.
5. I want to state again that the work you do here is invaluable. Nobody else does or can do what you've done. It's easy to get down in the dumps about all this crap. Frankly, I've been highly impressed you've stuck it out despite all of it. There are people here who will go to any length to make you look as bad as possible, and they are relentless. Please don't place value in their opinions. I have my own set of editors doing the same with me. I've taken to ignoring their posts. Their posts are frequently as nonsensical as they are illogical, and are extremely disconnected from the reality of what this project is. I choose not to waste my time reading them. If anything of import is raised by them, I figure someone else will write about it enough to bring it to my attention. Since that has never happened, it's so far been safe to conclude their comments remain non-pertinent, and I can continue to ignore them. This might do well for you too. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

1. Unfortunately, I know ArbCom doesn't have the testicular fortitude to actually get anything done worth while anymore, its a purely political group so they will never in a million years even ever consider such an action, let alone do it.
2. yeah, I fucked up there and I am quietly taking my lumps for going over the throttle, and not requesting unblock or anything else. I am complaining about the other issues
3. That is why you have seen me stay out of a lot of discussions here on my talk page because you and several other users have taken care of it for me.
4. What I would like to see is a zero tolerance policy, on NPA and serious CIVIL issues (for all sides of the table)
5. Thank you.

You might want to take a look at my monobook.js I added another tool that you might find useful. Also tools:~betacommand/nfcc might be interesting, Im running a NCC#10c scanner over every NFC use. <page title><tab><file name><tab><internal usage hash> ΔT 15:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Yep, I already added that tool. VERY useful! It's serious drudgery going through articles with >10 non-free images on them looking for such violations. Re (3); I kinda figured you were letting others step in for you on discussions here on this talk page, and I've been happy to do it. (4) You'll never see a zero tolerance policy on WP:NPA. Just won't happen. Barring Jimbo coming in and issuing a thousand blocks to forcefully change society here, WP:NPA will remain written on used toilet paper. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
• Case example on the zero tolerance idea. Quoting someone who recently responded to me, "You really just don't want this image on Misplaced Pages, do you?". Under current community standards, that's as far removed from a personal attack as the geocenter of the Sahara is from the Marianas Trench. Yet, it's a comment on me, not any points raised and DOES violate the "nutshell" shown on WP:NPA. WTF can post comments like this because he knows that nothing will ever be said about his comment. He feels at liberty to freely comment on me, knowing nothing will happen. Frankly, I find it silly for him to do this; it doesn't add to his argument. In fact, it detracts from it. But, there it is. Our culture doesn't support enforcement of WP:NPA. In fact, it's even the opposite. Several times now I've been attacked for showing intolerance of insults by way of WP:HAMMERSOFTSLAW. The irony is exquisitely delicious. The reality here is that if I were to say "Thou art a foul faced loon with intellect of a puffin" to someone I was in a disagreement with, nothing would happen to me. If instead I were to say "You are a fucking asshole, dumb as fuck all", I'd be taken to WP:WQA in heartbeat, probably WP:AN/I too, but probably not blocked for it. That's Misplaced Pages. Ain't it cool? <cough> The point here is that many editors just love to generate drama, and few admins are willing to walk face first into an unshielded fan to 'resolve' the issue (nothing gets resolved really). So, the culture is extreme tolerance of personal attacks because nobody will enforce the policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

take a second look there are two tools there, see example of the newest one :) ΔT 16:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oh cool! Can you make on revision? Add a link to the image description page at the top of the report? (by the way; I've removed the violating uses of that image). --Hammersoft (talk) 16:16, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • You mean like.... this? ΔT 17:04, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Just to comment: I'm trying to find some reasonable means to validate your excellent NFC work against those that would just rather see you gone from the project regardless of your attempts to abide by the restrictions. Most of the complaints you get are people dissatisfied with NFC policy, but they don't seem to want to take up the changes there and use you as the punching bag instead. Which is why I'm thinking a solution that simply brings any disagreements on NFC enforcement to a venue where your NFC enforcement can be validated is going to help prevent discussions strictly on your talk page from breaking down into incivility (and which, yes, you are right, if someone calls you out for being incivil in a discussion, there's likely someone else being incivil right back to you), and re-enforce the purpose and need of NFC enforcement. So don't please don't take what I'm trying to do at AN in the wrong way, I'm trying to negotiate a difficult set of priorities here. --MASEM (t) 17:26, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Then here is a solution: topic ban repeated offenders who try to use me as a punching bag; set up a discussion board with those who actively work with NFC, and point users to that board if they have issues. WP:NFCR not really suited for this in its current format, but a similar board focused on individual page/file uses (kinda like what WT:NFC is being used for now); Make it clear that Shooting the messenger is not acceptable and that the issues need to be focused on. With all of the proposals that Im seeing on AN right now I see nothing productive except making it easier for them to use me as a punching bag; We need to start focusing on the elephant in the room instead of the mouse. ΔT 17:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Concur. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Template:Politics of South Africa

Regarding your edits to Template:Politics of South Africa yes indeed, the image is not free, however it is a governmental work which is granted for non-commercial use by the South African government. The United States coat of arms (or Great Seal) falls under the same header of copyright law. Also, this image is used on South Africa which has been reviewed many times. If you consider it non-free then it would have to be removed from there as well.

Let me know what you think.

Kind Regards, User:DiscipleOfKnowledge (talk) 10:30, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

First File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg is public domain and is not copyrighted. File:Coat of arms of South Africa.svg is copyrighted and is thus subject to our non-free content policy. Usage of it on Coat of arms of South Africa, South Africa, South African heraldry has been justified with a non-free rationale. Similar rationales cannot be made for its usage in a template. (see WP:NFCC#8 and WP:NFCC#9). Using non-free content in decorative situations like this template is not allowed. ΔT 10:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

After going over SA copyright law it seems that the South African Coat of Arms does indeed belong in the public domain as ::according to the Copyright Act § 12 (8) (a):
"No copyright shall ::subsist in official texts of a legislative, administrative or legal nature, or in official translations of such texts."

The file ] is from such a source which you can find ::here.
I therefore recommend that all images that are derived from South ::African governmental works have their copyright status amended to the public domain so that they may be used on templates and ::anywhere else where they may have formerly been restricted.

Kind Regards User:DiscipleOfKnowledge (talk) 13:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

• Please be aware that the coat of arms was deleted from Commons some years back as a copyright violation, and not free of copyright. See Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:Coat_of_arms_of_South_Africa.gif. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

find all articles with same start date

I saw the blocked tag when I opened your talk page. I hope it's not a tremendous burr in your saddle. I wanted to follow up on the data you pulled regarding article start dates. In truth, what you sent was closer to what I wanted than what I had asked for (so kudos for parsing my request better than I wrote it). I found about 330k articles in the list you posted, so I'm curious about the first million comment in your post at the pump. Any idea why the numbers are so different? I see that some articles appear to have been renumbered (e.g., Buddhism), but that seems likely to be a relatively small number - unlikely to comprise 2/3 of articles in any case. If you are willing and able to pull the same data for the remaining articles (time and access permitting), I would love to get the query results. On a somewhat related note, do you know if there is any way to pull article class changes (or even current article class data) without looking at the text table? I know that class and other milestones are stored in a template on talk pages, but the text table is unpleasant to query. Thanks for the data you already provided - even that much is quite interesting. Wikipositivist (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I grabbed page_id 1-1,000,000 and then excluded everything not an article. (thus we have talk pages, user pages exct. that all get page_ids) So what you have is all articles with a page_id >1m. let me look around Ill see about getting the rest up shortly. ΔT 00:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

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I hear ya

Listen man, we disagree on things and I think you should dial it back (to the point I think you may need to be forced to dial it back), but I agree with you that civility is a two-way street. LessHeardVanU was out of line and I've told him so. I think a warning is sufficient right now. If you feel someone is pushing you around to the point of being hostile, I will stand by you. Let me know and I'll go to bat for you so you don't lose your cool (you can even e-mail me and vent, if you so desire). I don't think what you are doing is particularly helpful all the time, but I also recognize that some people are pushing you around. Just keep a level head and I'll back you up on civility issues (FWIW, I've been targeted by a particularly prolific sockpuppeter with over 300 accounts; he's accused me of all kinds of things including murder). Just chill and keep it civil. — BQZip01 —  01:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, its about frackin time people started to notice that I am normally a very civil person until pushed too far. Other than with the usage of logos I think our views on NFCC are fairly similar. Feel free to jump onto IRC any time and grab my ear if you want to discuss anything. (my nick is Delta or Delta|away normally on the freenode network) I idle in most wiki related channels. I think that if we could get most of the main players on both sides of the NFCC debate together, on IRC where communications are real time, I think we are all fairly similar in regards to our views, and I think a general airing of opinions and discussions, issues, approaches, and ideas would be helpful to both sides.

PS you might want to try adding importScript('User:Δ/NFCC.js'); to Special:MyPage/common.js for two useful tools with regards to non-free files and their rationales. ΔT 01:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Good to see such dialogue. Don't you mean Special:MyPage/skin.js? Rd232 01:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

No, /common.js applies to all skins, if a user changes skins anything in common.js keeps working, its independent of your skin file, (kinda like a global scripts feature) ΔT 01:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, splendid. Well that seems worth recording in a suitable location, so I made Misplaced Pages:Common.js. Rd232 02:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Image Police Request

Can you please take a look at the many issues with uploaded images as indicated on User talk:Hoops gza? This user has been having a hard time understanding Misplaced Pages policies and the talk page is full of image problem notices. There was also a disturbing post a while back where the user was advised to simply start marking all images as public domain. There is still further an ANI notice about this, and I'm surprised the image issue hasn't drawn more attention. Thank you! -OberRanks (talk) 16:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Nicaraguan córdoba

Delta, I've just come across this edit on Nicaraguan córdoba from 6 June, and I want to ask you, in your judgement, whether you think it was really appropriate?

Remember, per WP:NFCC #8 and #3a, the community expects images to be kept which "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic".

In your judgement, can you really affirm that, in stripping the article of every single image apart from the (free) flag of Nicaragua, that you have preserved the understanding that readers were getting of the topic ?

You job is to try to work towards that balance; not to nuke the article into the stone age.

It seems to me that, particularly given the difficulty to describe of any pattern or consistency in the 2009 bills, there is a strong case for illustrating them all. The 2002 series was more consistent, but the images are useful to show the variety and range within that pattern. It is also, I suggest, clearly informative to show what the coins look like.

Given this, can I suggest that the appropriate action would be to identify on the talk page which particular images you believe fail to increase reader understanding; and in the mean time to restore the page to the state it was in before 6 June, to allow informed discussion. I appreciate that you may fear that insufficient attention may be paid simply to such talk-page interventions; but even in the worst case, if you feel there is a legitimate case for deletion, and that your concerns are not receiving proper attention, you can always refer them to WP:FFD and allow the community to decide.

Regardless, I hope you would agree that your edit of 6 June did not leave the article in an appropriate final state, and was therefore not appropriate; and I therefore expect you to reverse it.

If you believe that that edit was an appropriate final state to leave the article in, I have to inform you that I should feel bound to ask the community to consider that view at WP:AN/I; and to review, if that is your judgement, whether it is appropriate for you to continue to act as an enforcer for the community in this area. Jheald (talk) 00:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

You must have missed the memo, take a look at 1 cent euro coins,1 euro coins,2 cent euro coins,5 cent euro coins,10 cent euro coins,20 cent euro coins,50 cent euro coins,Coins of the Dutch guilder,Coins of the Philippine peso,Commemorative coins of Poland: 1999,Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (Netherlands),Florin (Australian coin),New Design series,One pound (British coin),Peruvian nuevo sol,Shilling (Australian),Threepence (Australian),Vatican euro coins. All of those articles have had large scale reductions of non-free content. This most recent cleanup was started by Hammersoft, and Hammersoft gave plenty of notice. See Talk:Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (Netherlands)#Over use of non-free images for one example of many many notices that Hammersoft left, prior to us starting the large scale removals. My removals shouldnt be a final state, what should happen is that the editors of the affected pages should select a small sample of the previous non-free material which they see as the most important and them re-add that. ΔT 01:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

• JHeald, to threaten to take this to WP:AN/I to force Δ not to work in this area is wholly inappropriate and absolutely out of line. In as much as you expect Δ to revert his edit, I expect you to apologize for your uncalled for aggression towards Δ. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• JHeald, I second that. First, this has nothing to do with WP:FFD, and the Foundation has asked us to minimise the use of non-free media. As Delta shows, notice was given early on that here something needed to be done, giving enough time for discussion, but (apparently) no-one wanted to do anything about it. Your further threats are totally inappropriate, and I expect you to withdraw them, and to apologize for this aggression (note: this is yet another example of an established editor who, in a first post to Delta on a subject, fails utterly to assume good faith on Delta, ánd is using inappropriate aggression in the same post). --Dirk Beetstra 07:56, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

• • So be it. Follow-ups to WP:AN/I#User:Delta and Nicaraguan córdoba. Jheald (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup of Icon bar

Hi. Thanks for tidying up the text and image appearance in Icon bar. It looks better now, but it's worth noting that some of the images may be rescued. If and when this happens (along with adequate rationales), some of them should be returned to the article. Thanks. --Trevj (talk) 12:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

articles by start date

Delta, thanks for the earlier data dump. I went through it and it is quite interesting. I don't want to be a pest, so please let me know if you have real, productive editing to do and don't have time or energy to pull start dates and I can take it back to the pump and cross my fingers. Also, any idea where I can get some $2 bills (I forwarded that link along) :P. Wikipositivist (talk) 18:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I must have forgotten to post the link . Depending on your location (I would assume that your American) If you walk into your local bank they should have them available for you. a quick but related note ΔT 18:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll start plugging away at it tonight. I used to use the old $ coins (not the really, really old ones), but it was a bit of a pain getting people to dig them out of the quarter slot when they failed to look... I'll have to start with $2 bills :) Wikipositivist (talk) 01:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

M.J. Coldwell picture

The M.J. Coldwell picture was not uploaded by me for starters. However, M.J. Coldwell deserves a picture, and that is the one that is currently on his page. Provide a rational for removing it.--Abebenjoe (talk) 22:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Simple it is non-free and does not have a rationale and fails WP:NFC#8 on the article where I removed it. That is three reasons. ΔT 22:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

First off, you should have replied on my wall. Secondly, why the hell didn't you post that in your first edit summary. I have other rights cleared images of Coldwell that I could have used, as opposed to wasting time debating with you.--Abebenjoe (talk) 22:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

If a conversation is started on one talk page, common curtsy and practice is to keep it in one place. Two, wikipedia does not have "walls". Three my edit summary remove files without a ] for this usage was explicit for why it was removed it was non-free and missing a rationale. Upon further investigation I noticed it failed #8 also. Please remember to remain civil at all times and to not blindly revert. ΔT 22:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you got your Wiki manners, but if a conversation is started on one talk page, so that the other person knows there is a response, the reply is on that user's page so that they are notified. Two, you used the wrong tag in your edit commit, since I didn't upload the image, you could have stated clearly, that you thought the image was inappropriate due to possible copyright violations. Three don't be so thin skinned.Abebenjoe (talk) 23:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Uh, you need to take a few minutes and read through WP:NFC. I never sated that there was a copyright violation. I did use the correct summary, it is the responsibility of those who wish to include non-free content to provide rationales for every use. For this file there was only one rationale, and it was being used on three separate pages, which means it needed two more rationales. We have watchlists for a reason, I use mine to monitor discussions across multiple pages without getting flooded with new message banners. Also WP:CIVIL is a one of the pillars that wikipedia is founded on, when you come at someone in the aggressive and derogative manner that you did it is un-civil. Its not a matter of thickness of ones skin, its about common curtsy and manners. Again Special:Watchlist is your friend. ΔT 23:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)