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References

Listing Absent Features?

Admittedly, I haven't contributed for a while, but when did we collectively decide that listing things a device doesn't do was worthy of inclusion? The "Features Removed From Windows Mobile" section has several "features" which weren't there to begin with, and uses a simple "Five Things I Don't Like" opinion piece as research. It's almost like burying a section in Toyota Camry about how it's not very good at being a dump truck. -- Kevin (talk) 07:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. A lot of blood sweat and tears have been shed over that section which was at one point labled "Missing Features" and was just a dumping ground for Windows Phone 7 haters. If you want to truly understand what went into that section, look up the archived Talk sections about "Missing Features" and you'll see. I lobbied hard for it to be completely removed on the basis that saying a feature of Windows Phone 7 is that it doesn't do cut/copy/paste is like saying not unicycling is a hobby of mine. However, people got so up in arms about how this is a fanyboy page that glows at the mention of Microsoft that a token "negative" section has been insisted to need to exist. In the end we compromised by only including features that older versions of Windows Mobile had. Hey, be bold and delete it. Maybe things have quited down enough that nobody will throw a fit. I'd love to see it removed. Captain Stack (talk) 08:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

If it is up to me, I would remove the whole section, but apparently a few, but very vocal users (trolls?) want the section to stay. Illegal Operation (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

"In the end we compromised by only including features that older versions of Windows Mobile had." Windows Mobile never had universal inbox. Video calling was also never a native feature of the OS, but rather an OEM add-on. It seems the baseline for the comparison is not Windows Mobile but the current iPhone.--86.162.103.119 (talk) 10:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If that's true I request that you remove content that was not in Windows Mobile, including the above listed examples. Not being too knowledgable of older versions of WinMo I had no qualification to remove content like that. Thanks for pointing that out. Captain Stack (talk) 10:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Please forgive me if I totally muck things up in asking this as this is my first time participating in a discussion. But related to this discussion: the article speaks of Windows Phone as a replacement of Windows Mobile. But I'm not sure how well that fits. On 10 January 2010 Microsoft announced Windows Embedded Handheld, which was essentially an updated version of Windows Mobile. It was on 15 February 2010 that Microsoft announced Windows Phone 7 and said that both operating systems would continue to exists since they addressed different needs. The mainstream support date for the Windows Mobile line was extended to 2014. Also during the announcement Steve Ballmer and Joe Belfiore made it exceedingly clear that Windows Phone 7 and Windows Mobile were addressing different needs and were different operating systems. This brings to question whether or not Windows Phone should be called a successor of Windows Mobile. It's almost like some one that produced swiss army knives designing a regular kitchen knife (which of course has less functionality) and selling them both and some one else referring to the kitchen knife as the successor of the Swiss Army knife (in which case it's also questionable if it is proper to say the kitchen knife has had features removed or missing since it was never designed to have those, but that's another discussion). As far as I could tell there was nothing that took Windows Embedded Handheld into consideration in Misplaced Pages either. I just added a brief statement about it on the Windows Mobile page to get things started.Alcedes78 (talk) 12:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Alcedes78, thanks for participating in the discussion. The Windows Phone 7 page has been subject to a lot of controversy. You bring up an interesting point. Would you support removal of the section "Feature removed from WinMo"? Based on this discussion, perhaps it is time to get rid of this section. Nobody seems to like it.Captain Stack (talk) 15:10, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I would think that we should mention lack of copy and past and multitasking. Whether that's in this section or in the critical reception section, I'd have to think about. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

As I've always said, I think listing things that something ISN'T makes little sense. However, if this content must be mentioned, I suggest it goes under an "Announced Features" section. Then there can be a place for features that Microsoft has publicly anounced will be added to the phone. Microsoft has made such an announcement for Adobe Flash, HTML 5, Copy/Paste, Multitasking, and a handful of other features.Captain Stack (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It makes sense because WP:WEIGHT is determined by its prominence in third-party reliable sources. Putting it in the announced features makes it sound like a positive when it's really a negative. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Why not have a section about how you can't use it as a frying pan? Who decided these features were "missing"? Since this article isn't about the media and it's not a comparison to other phone platforms, where do you draw lines? That is why we've always had sections that are relevant to the phone platform as it exists on its own (independent of competitiors and media) like "Removed from WinMo" and "Announced Features". Once you start bringing in the media or comparing to other platforms, the page becomes a magazine or a fanboy dumping ground rather than a neutral objective article about what Windows Phone 7 is.Captain Stack (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I already answered that and it's the same as any other article on Misplaced Pages: Weight should be determined by the prominence of the content in third-party reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

To answer your question, I am for the removal of the "Features removed from WinMo?" section since I don't think it's really applicable. As stated at the initial announcement of what was then called Windows Phone 7 Series "Windows Phone isn't Windows Mobile." I also still think the word "successor" needs to be removed. Alcedes78 (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.112.144.129 (talk)

The missing features of Windows Phone 7 have been given massive coverage by the media, and by most reliable technology publications that cover smartphones. In fact, it could be argued that a large proportion of the coverage about Windows Phone 7 is about its missing features, and the update process to restore those missing features (which was botched). Whoever recently deleted these very well referenced facts, should not have.--Lester 21:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I have restored the removed content. I do not see the point why this info should be censored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.217.111.232 (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I see user:Illegal Operation has just deleted the section again (diff). I think you need to get consensus before deleting sections.--Lester 02:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not understand why Illegal Operation (talk) wants this information censored. Is Illegal Operation (talk) a Microsoft employee? Should we allow this censorship? Please people revert his edits or he will win! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.217.111.232 (talk) 06:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

First, nobody really want that section, but Lester. Second, I am not a Microsoft employee, but an enthusiast and I in a city near Los Angeles, CA. Third, I own two Windows Phone 7 handsets, Samsung Focus and HTC HD7, and that's how I know so much "stuff" about it. Fourth, Windows Phone 7 is not iOS, Android, WebOS, Windows Mobile, Symbian, or BlackBerry OS so it obviously is not going to have all the features that those OS have. Fifth, there's an infinite number of things that is missing and that's why I am only focusing on the "announced features". Sixth, what you deem is important and missing is entirely subjective. As "real" Windows Phone 7 users would tell you, the biggest hurdle is lack of custom ringtones. Copy and paste and multitasking has been overly emphasize by sites like Engadget. I am not saying that those things are unimportant, but who is to decide what is important? Finally, nothing has been "removed". Windows Phone 7 is an entire rewrite and is not based on Windows Mobile. UPDATE: The update that adds copy and paste has been released. Illegal Operation (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that not being Windows Phone 7 an upgrade to Windows Mobile 6, Microsoft decided to continue with the version number creating confusion. So it is quite important that people know what features were removed from the previous operating system. Since we can not decide what is important we just state facts. I want that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.250.105 (talk) 05:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

To me, what Illegal Operation said is making more sense. If Windows phone 7 is entire re-write, then how could there be any features removed? My suggestion would be to mention that windows phone 7 is re-write and some of previously supported feature are not provided at the first release time. Here we are list some of the important Not Yet Implemented/Released features. -Abhishikt 05:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, so we will have to state that Microsoft wants to mislead people into believing is is an upgrade (they incremented the version number instead of starting from 1) when it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.251.50 (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it. Microsoft probably want some of the "magic" from the desktop Windows 7 OS to to rub off on its mobile platform and really, does name even matter? Illegal Operation (talk) 02:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I am working on a replacement section called "Compare with Windows Mobile". This section will mention that while Windows Phone 7 is the successor to Windows Mobile, WP7 has been entirely rewritten and as a result have different feature sets than do Windows Mobile. I will of cause include some of the features in Windows Mobile that in not in Windows Phone 7, but it wouldn't be a list like today. Notice that I did NOT use the word "removed" because WP7 has been rewritten and not base on WM so no feature has been removed. CaptainStack and other users are free to step in and help write this section. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:15, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not a complete rewrite AFAIK. It's still based on Windows CE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That paragraph is pretty terrible at the moment so I edited it. If nobody wants to make the whole formatting changes, can they please just fix the typos of 'implanted' for 'implemented' and 'time restrain' for 'time constraints', and the double phrase 'and custom ringtones' at the end? :)

Also, it probably shouldn't be presented as a list like this, but it made it a lot easier to read with my comments on the citations for now

(this sentence should be back in Operating System Development)In 2008 Windows Mobile 7, the intended successor to Windows Mobile 6.x, was cancelled and a new version of the OS was designed and written from scratch (although still based on Windows CE).

Although the operating system is still named 'Windows Phone 7', it is not based on Windows Mobile 6.5 or any earlier versions of Windows Mobile, and as a result it does not offer the same feature set as earlier versions. Microsoft has stated that some features are no longer present are by design while others have yet to be implemented due to time constraints, but will be addressed in future updates. Some of the features present in Windows Mobile 6.5 but not in Windows Phone 7 at release are

- full multitasking for 3rd party apps

- Adobe Flash support

- connecting to a hidden Wi-fi (wireless network) access point

(connecting to a wifi access point with a static IP? I didn't know they existed, is that right? I think this point is supposed to say the phone should be able to have a static IP)

- tethering to a computer for internet access

- file system access for third parties and users [79, but I think this is a better source:

http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/mix10-windows-phone-7-series-will-not-have-a-file-manager-nor-usb-mass-storage-mode]

- bluetooth file transfer

- USSD messages

- custom ringtones

About WP7 USSD support. It seems that USSD is not fully implemented in WP7 platform, and the problem in details is described only in russian sources. Originally in this article from Oct. 6, 2010 by blogger (article currently removed, cached copy is available), later in WP7 review by Mobile-review.com. --188.163.100.118 (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

thanks! Jac. Note: yes, I work for Microsoft, but no, I don't think that's biasing me in my quest for better writing. 24.17.82.125 (talk) 06:29, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

User:Illegal Operation continues to delete large swathes of referenced text. This should not have been done.--Lester 10:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

24.17.82.125, unfortunately the section was previously barely legible before and it's really hard to fix. Illegal Operation (talk) 15:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Legibility is not a valid reason for deletion. You'll have to try a bit harder for a justification for your deletions.-Lester 13:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Almost everybody else, but you, wanted a "Features Removed From Windows Mobile" section deleted. I was trying to compromise: to make a section that would at least partially satisfy you by talking about Windows Mobile and the differences without just listing features no longer present. You have, however, made it clear you will not compromise, therefore, I and other users have no choice but to remove the whole section. Illegal Operation (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The simple fact is that every major media organisation has covered the missing features of Windows Phone 7. This is because Windows Phone 7 is missing many of the more basic features that other smartphone platforms have. I haven't seen any justification why it should be removed from this article.---Lester 00:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Illegal Operation's solution of a sub section comparing WP7 to WM was a smart compromise. Either way, Lester points outs that this artile should be responsible for comparing what WP7 has to other mobile operating systems. Lester says there is no justification why it should be removed from this article, yet he continues to ignore the fact the mobile operating system article subjectively compares every mobile OS in a chart. This article should be no different from the Android or iOS articles in the sense that it should be focused on the subject itself, anything else is less relevant and there are are more sensible articles on Misplaced Pages that deal with the issues Lester brings up. Lester's concerns with this article have nothing to do with subject of the article. --Interframe (talk) 01:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Interframe. If you want to compare WP7 with "other smartphone platforms", you should do so at the Mobile operating system#Smartphone OS comparison, not at the WP7 page. Illegal Operation (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

We should not allow Microsoft to take control of a Misplaced Pages page. If Illegal Operation (talk) continues censoring content we should try to block him and revert any censoring change.

A couple things. First, please sign your posts, it really makes discussion much easier and more efficient. Secondly, by insinuating that letting Illegal Operation edit is allowing "Microsoft to take control of a Misplaced Pages page" you are suggesting that his editing of this page is actually a Microsoft funded activity. This is a serious acusation, one that I think is not true and shouldn't be thrown around lightly. He may have strong feelings about Microsoft products, but it is not your right to make acusations like that. Regarding the actual "censorship" and editing, I haven't paid close enough attention to say anything too strongly, but I believe that this page is about Windows Phone 7 and how it exists on its own. Even comparing it to previous versions of Windows Mobile is dubious (thought not necessarily unacceptable) because #1 - it's largely a rebrand and rewrite of the OS and #2 - this is the Windows Phone 7 page and comparisons to other versions should be done on the Windows Mobile page, and Mobile OS pages. As I've always said before, things that have recieved attention from the media belong only in the reception section. Let's please try to keep this civilCaptain Stack (talk) 06:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I meant this edit-summary literally. I honestly don't see consensus here. Is this the discussion Illegal Operation is referring to? Or is there another one that I missed? I'll self-revert if there's something that I'm missing. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is. Apparently, Lester doesn't disagree. Illegal Operation (talk) 22:14, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree either. And what happened to the content about Microsoft's botched update? How did that get deleted? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you hit your head or something? This is what you said: "I agree that we shouldn't document every update. But as for now, I think that it's important to list the current status of the software. This is important information that I think our readers will want to know. After MS has resolved the issue and it's not longer a problem, then I agree we can remove it. But for now, let's explain the current status of the software." Illegal Operation (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I did hit my head. Now don't you feel guilty? :) Seriously, that was back when I thought it was just a minor glitch that would get resolved in a few days, not the never-ending nightmare it has become. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, to its credit, Microsoft did fixed the issue: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2530409 That tool fixes everything including previously bricked phone. Anyhow, back to my point; how do you want to fix the section? Illegal Operation (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah though the problem took a long time to fix, I still think it makes little sense to have it in the article, especially now that the problem is gone. Basically, it's still in our memories but it'll probably be irrelevant in a year so why put it in now?Captain Stack (talk) 01:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Really? They fixed the problem? My Samsung Focus begs to differ. In any case, the fact that it's taking 2 months to fix the update issue I think makes it notable to stay in the article, although I'm fine if someone wants to propose alternative text. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The other news is that Chris Walshie has managed to turn the tool into an updater for all the Windows Phone. I managed to update my AT&T branded Samsung Focus to NoDo (7390) without debranding it. http://blog.walshie.me/2011/04/04/so-who-wants-windows-phone-updates-like-right-now/ Also, I don't know what the big deal is. I know plenty of updates that brick Android phones, yet they don't get a front page attention. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Going back on topic, I don't see why Windows Phone 7 missing "videocalling, VoIP calling, USB mass-storage, universal email inbox, universal search, a system-wide file manage..." belong on this article. Those are already on the Mobile operating system#Smartphone OS comparison Illegal Operation (talk) 03:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

One user said that video calling (and perhaps several other features) were not features of the old OS but were actually software features added by vendors. These would not belong on the page. If anyone knows what those features are, please remove them from the section. Also, the update was supposed to roll out in the second week of March so it hasn't even been one month much less two to fix.Captain Stack (talk) 04:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry I haven't had as much time to work on the article as I would like, but generally speaking, if multiple reliable sources have covered features lacked by WP7, there's a good chance that it belongs in the article. An obvious example would be lack of multi-tasking. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That's just it. Some of these "missing" things are just plain silly. For example, a system-wide file manager and Bluetooth file transfers. As far as I can recall, the only things heavily covered by the media is lack of copy and paste and multitasking and the NoDo update has already added copy and paste. The other thing I am wondering is that why don't we do this at the Mobile operating system article instead. Illegal Operation (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That's your opinion, and while you're entitled to it, we base our articles on what's found in reliable sources, not the opinions of Misplaced Pages editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

There's no reason why this information can't be both places. But it's relevant to WP7 if it's receiving coverage in articles about WP7. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:40, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

What I am trying to say is that some of these "missing" features are undue weight (see WP:WEIGHT). I, personally, think that Bing Navigation is most important "missing" feature, yet that is not listed. So basically, I want to be able to establish what belongs and what doesn't belong on the article, because there's infinite number of things that missing. Illegal Operation (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

How is it undue weight? These have been documented extensively by third-party reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:18, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I am saying that you are overly focusing in it. Also, Misplaced Pages is not Engadget, Gizmodo, or other news site so it should only cover what it does not what it "should" do. Illegal Operation (talk) 19:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The features are not "missing". They are features that the reviewers want to have. I don't know why we are focusing so much attention on what the OS doesn't have. Illegal Operation (talk) 01:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I renamed the section to "Absent features". I think you misunderstand how WP:WEIGHT is determined. Weight is supposed to be based on the amount of coverage receive in third-party reliable sources. How do you think weight should be given? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

In that case, I don't ever remember "a system-wide file manager, Bluetooth file transfers, USSD messages..." ever being cover extensively in the media. In fact, I can't find any information on some of these anywhere than GSMArena and one of the source is from a forum written in Russia. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Illegal Operation (talk), Why do you want to hide useful information? Why are you not objective? Do you really care about mobile operating systems? If you really cared you will not hide any information to make them compete more ferociously and bring all the features we all want. If you do not have any economic relationship with Microsoft please state the truth and make Misplaced Pages useful so buyers can get the best operating system. I really care about Mobile Operating Systems. Please help innovation instead only helping Microsoft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.251.115 (talk) 18:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Just because it's useful doesn't mean it belongs in Misplaced Pages (they don't put the price of the iPhone 4 on the iPhone 4 page even though that's useful information). This is an encyclopedia and therefore should only have encyclopedic information. It's not a dumping ground for what Misplaced Pages editors wished Windows Phone 7 had, nor is it a tech media site. Windows Phone 7 should be evaluated as it exists in space rather than compared to other phone OSs. THIS is the truly objective approach. I'm not saying we shouldn't mention any of these (supposed) missing features, but you don't get to decide what's "missing" nor does CNET or any other tech site. Calling a feature "missing" is inherently negative.Captain Stack (talk) 18:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually reliables sources such as CNET do get to decide. It's not our place as Misplaced Pages editors to say that reliable sources are wrong or should be ignored. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

So if CNET says "Windows Phone 7 is missing a built in face shaver" then we should put it in Misplaced Pages? We must decide what's encyclopedic, because that's not the media's job. They can say whatever they want but we must stay objective and encyclopedic. Responses from sources like CNET belong in Reception.Captain Stack (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is about what something, in this case Windows Phone 7, is. Misplaced Pages is not a buying guide. Misplaced Pages is not a wish list. Misplaced Pages is not is not a list of what Windows Phone 7 is not. Illegal Operation (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, some of these are not reliable sources. For example, website written in Russia language for a source? Illegal Operation (talk) 22:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

"If you do not have any economic relationship with Microsoft please state the truth and make Misplaced Pages useful so buyers can get the best operating system." I have answer this questing many many many many many times: I have a Samsung Focus and an HTC HD7 and I love my phones and that is the only obligation I have to Microsoft to write this article. Also, Misplaced Pages is NOT a cell phone buying guide. It's simply an article about what Windows Phone 7 is. "Why do you want to hide useful information?" Not every "useful" information belong on Misplaced Pages. "Why are you not objective?" This is not a Microsoft site so I don't post complains straight up to Joe Belfiore (VP of Windows Phone developement). "Do you really care about mobile operating systems?" Of cause. "If you really cared you will not hide any information to make them compete more ferociously and bring all the features we all want." Misplaced Pages is not a wishlist. I sent an email to Joe Belfiore complaining about the lack of Bing Navigation, but that doesn't mean that it belong on Misplaced Pages. Illegal Operation (talk) 22:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no requirement that sources be in English. Please see WP:V. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The translation must be provided and I don't understand what Bing/Google Translator said. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:47, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Translations are only required for quotations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it is imperative that the absent feature list be kept. It was extremely helpful to me when doing research on smart phones and saved a lot of time. I don't see anything anti-Microsoft about it. Even writers who gave positive reviews to Windows Phone 7 have mentioned missing features. In fact, I would dispute the article's neutrality on the basis that it seems highly suspicious that ONLY positive information is being stated. It goes so far that someone might question whether Microsoft isn't trying to influence the article in their favor. I also noticed marketshare information missing. Why is this gone?! I can't make sense of why someone would remove that. It seems very relevant. For comparison, the iPhone article has both marketshare information and a list of restrictions. That should settle the debate right there.Darkhack (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

The absent features are still in the article. They have just been integrated into the Reception section. It's also important to remember that Misplaced Pages is not a buyer's guide and lots of data that people might like to read isn't included because it's not encyclopedic. The reason we moved the absent features from their own section to the reception section is that calling a feature "absent" suggests that it's a feature that the smartphone HAS to have, when things may be left out on purpose. For instance, blu-ray is not an absent feature of the Xbox 360 and Gears of War is not an absent feature of the PS3. They are things that one console has that the other doesn't. Regarding the marketshare information, I don't know who removed that but it really ought to be put back in. Hope this helps clear things up. Captain Stack (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit wars have begun

Sad that some have to resort edit waring (continuous reverting). deletion diff --Lester 00:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't blame it on me. It's your fault. Illegal Operation (talk) 01:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Illegal Operation, I think you'll find it more productive to defend yourself than to attack Lester.Captain Stack (talk) 06:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much to the people that are restoring the censored text. We must keep wikipedia useful and maintain wikipedia being useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.250.67 (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

USSD support

I did some searching and discovered that Windows Phone 7 supports USSD 1, but does not allow use of a keypad 23. To say that "USSD messages" are unsupported is slightly inaccurate. --Btx40 (talk) 17:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Timeline in History section

Does anyone else think this timeline is sort of stupid and ought to be removed? It's not a very good "timeline" because the ticks on the timeline do not uniformly correspond to time (1 cm is one month is some spots and many more months in others). It's also taking up a lot of space and occasionally makes the layout of the page weird. I really just don't think it gives particularly interesting information. Also, the information will become very dated unless the graphic is continually updated, but then it will get very long and awkward to put in the page. I nominate this image for deletion, what do you guys think? Captain Stack (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I think it sums up a few paragraphs very well. Also, I am in contact with the author Modamoda who pledge to continually update it. Illegal Operation (talk) 21:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Updating is fine, but the graphic will just get longer and longer until it's too hard to fit into the section. Look at the History section right now. It has a huge spot of white space with no text. It looks horrible. I'd be alright with all that if I thought the content was useful. Captain Stack (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I do agree with that the timeline may become ridiculously long, but we can deal with that when it happens. Also, I am guessing that you are using a monitor with a much higher resolution screen than I am, because I do not see any blank space. Illegal Operation (talk) 00:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

1280x800, which I think the problem may have actually been not enough horizontal pixles so it did a weird stacking thing. Probably depends on screen size, resolution, and width of the window you're using. Issue seems gone now, so I'll leave the graphic up for now. If other people think it should be taken down though, I'll support them. Captain Stack (talk) 01:50, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Remove Absent features section

The section contains random information that claims to be "missing", yet I don't understand how this is valid. Since it list "missing" features, unlimited things that Windows Phone 7 is not can be listed. Plenty of information listed isn't even in the iOS yet I don't see the iOS article. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

proposed solution

Remove - the article is about what Windows Phone 7 is not what Windows Phone 7 isn't. There's an unlimited things that Windows Phone 7 isn't. Windows Phone 7 isn't a toaster, for example. Illegal Operation (talk)

I agree with this solution philosophically and if we got the support, I'd be completely down with it. However, I'm not sure all the editors here are ready to part with that section. I have a proposed solution of my own. Captain Stack (talk) 04:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge with Reception section - This is not an article about what Windows Phone 7 ISN'T. However, we do have portions about the reaction from the media and the public. Features that have gotten widespread attention from the media as omissions in Windows Phone 7 can be put into the reception section as long as the source is credible, objective, and representative of the media overall. Many features in the "Absent Features" section I believe would not hold up to this standard.Captain Stack (talk) 04:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I just went through many reviews and the most common complain seem to be lack of multitasking, lack of universal search, and lack of universal inbox. That can be added to the Reception section and the whole Absent features section can be eliminated. Illegal Operation (talk) 05:33, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget custom ringtones, I think that one is important.Captain Stack (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

As a Samsung Focus user, I believe that it's the most important features missing, but most of the major sites such as Engadget never mention it, so I am excluding it. Remember, I am basing it on reviews from major blog site like Engadget not what I feel is missing from personal experience. Illegal Operation (talk) 22:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I am currently going through reviews with a fine tooth comb seeing what some of the major reviews note is "missing" Illegal Operation (talk)

According to Maximum Tech magazine, the most glaring are lack of CDMA, customization, external memory, apps and fully implemented landscape mode. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the NoDo update added CDMA support and the HTC Arrice is on Sprint's network so I think that one doesn't count. Also, what do they mean by "customization". I think it needs to be a bit more specific to get in the Wiki. Also, the app marketplace is pretty good and growing quickly. Some might still criticize it but I wonder, how old is this article?Captain Stack (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

And that's the problem. At some point, there need to be a line drawn on what should be consider "missing". If most reviews complain about it, then it is noteworthy. iPhone doesn't have any of those features, for instance, and I don't see too many complaining about it. Illegal Operation (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge with reception section is fine. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

One other note on the merge. I feel like the Reception section should be lower down in the article. In most video game, movie, and other articles, the reception section is towareds the bottom, if not the very bottom. That's where the section originally as and it got moved to "History". To me this makes little sense. Since we're merging and moving content, I think this is a good time to move it back to the bottom. What does everyone else think?Captain Stack (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I just moved it to the bottom. Illegal Operation (talk) 23:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

New Zealand is not in Europe; Mexico/Spain not in South America

The "Release History" section lists Mexico and Spain as part of South America. It also lists New Zealand as part of Europe. Geography fail. While we're at it, "PAL" is not a continent, and "Middle East" is not a country! (What Middle East countries has it actually launched in?) And how do PAL/NTSC broadcast television regions pertain to Windows Phone 7, anyway? If the table uses the old PAL region terminology, then many of the other countries in the table should also be under PAL. Matthew81.159.146.232 (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Big revision to the "Reception" section

Hey guys. As long as its existed, I've had problems with the Reception section. I've always thought that it seems to be more about the fact that this reviewer liked WP7 or that another didn't rather than about reveiwers specific praise and criticism of the OS. I've whipped up a draft of what I consider to be an improvement over the Reception section. It's more about content and less about praise/criticism. I haven't added citations yet so it will be a while before this is ready for prime time, but I'd like to see what you guys think before I put much more work into it. Anyways, let me know. Captain Stack (talk) 02:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The reception section is a very controversial ground and I man not sure how other editors would take it. That said, the revise section does sound much more soothing and I definitely see it as an improvement. Illegal Operation (talk) 05:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you know specifically what Mango will bring to Windows Phone 7 (UI and features only, don't care about dev tools, bug fixes, and performance optimizations)? I know that third party multitasking is one of them, but if I am correct, unified search and universal inbox have not been announced yet. Is this correct? Captain Stack (talk) 06:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It was leaked that there will be unified inbox. Illegal Operation (talk) 23:09, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Well we cannot hold a double standard for features that we like, so until it's confirmed by Microsoft, we cannot say that Mango will add it.Captain Stack (talk) 02:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly why I am waiting until May 24th to see what's up. Illegal Operation (talk) 02:25, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Reception Draft

Moved to article.

Mango update

edit Following are the details of mango update I got from http://gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/24/6707681-whats-new-in-mango-the-next-version-of-windows-phone. I'm not sure how much of it needs to go into the main article.

Communications

Among Mango's communications-oriented features are some enhancements to the way you'll get updates and maneuver through texts, chats, emails, IMs, and other messages:

•Threads. Switch between text, Facebook chat and Windows Live Messenger within the same conversation.
•Groups. Group contacts into personalized Live Tiles to see the latest status updates right from the Start Screen and quickly send a text, email or IM to the whole group.
•Deeper social network integration. Twitter and LinkedIn feeds are now integrated into contact cards, and “Mango” includes built-in Facebook check-ins and new face detection software that makes it easier to quickly tag photos and post to the Web.
•Linked inbox. See multiple email accounts in one linked inbox. Conversations are organized to make it easy to stay on top of the latest mail.
•Hands-free messaging. Built-in voice-to-text and text-to-voice support enables hands-free texting or chatting.

Apps

With Mango, Microsoft is attempting to integrate apps "directly into the core experience of the phone." In plain terms, this means that app notifications will get more prominent spots on the start screen and be included in search results— oh and they'll get multitasking support:

•App Connect. By connecting apps to search results and deepening their integration with Windows Phone Hubs, including Music and Video and Pictures, “Mango” allows apps to be surfaced when and where they make sense.
•Improved Live Tiles. Get real-time information from apps without having to open them. Live Tiles can be more dynamic and hold more information.
•Multitasking. Quickly switch between apps in use and allow apps to run in the background, helping to preserve battery life and performance.

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Internet

Microsoft says that it is trying to take the Internet "beyond the browser," and apparently what it means is that it will give Windows Phone a speed update with Internet Explorer 9 and better integrate apps and device features with the browser:

•Internet Explorer 9. A browser based on the powerful Internet Explorer 9 and including support for HTML5 and full hardware acceleration.
•Local Scout. Provides hyperlocal search results and recommends nearby restaurants, shopping and activities in an easy-to-use guide.
•Bing on Windows Phone. More ways to search the Web, including Bing Vision, Music Search and Voice so it’s easy to discover and decide.
•Quick Cards. When searching for a product, movie, event or place, see a quick summary of relevant information, including related apps

-Abhishikt 01:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I am currently awaiting the unlocked Mango emulator to work with. Currently, I do not have sufficient knowledge about Windows Phone 7.5 (Mango) to add to the Misplaced Pages article. Illegal Operation (talk) 02:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

A lot of the information has now been added. Illegal Operation (talk) 14:43, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Move to new name "Windows Phone"

I believe that this is the perfect time to change the article's name to "Windows Phone". I see no reason why we need to have a separate article for Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone 7.5, Windows Phone 8 etc. Perhaps when this article become incrementally large, we can make separate articles. Illegal Operation (talk) 02:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Still seems a bit soon. We don't know that Mango is 7.5. When there's a legit new version then we'll split them. Captain Stack (talk) 06:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I do not believe that Windows Phone 7.5 (or whatever it will be call) is big enough to qualify for its own article. It's the same reason we don't have separate articles for iPhone OS 1.X, iPhone OS 2.X, iPhone OS 3.X and iOS 4.X. Illegal Operation (talk) 01:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I think I misunderstood your original post. Yes all versions should be in one article. We'll add a seperate section (not page) for whatever Mango ends up being named when we know the name. Captain Stack (talk) 04:41, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this article is now about the new Windows Phone line, not just Windows Phone 7. ADNewsom (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the article should stay as Windows Phone 7 for now. When Mango comes out, we can revisit the issue. BTW, just because there aren't separate articles for each version of iOS doesn't mean we should follow the same pattern here. We have separate articles on Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.1x, etc.. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Marketshare information

We used to have a section (under Reception) for the marketshare and adoption. What happened to that? I also noticed a small bit about marketshare was recently edited out. Is there a reason we're removing this content? Captain Stack (talk) 01:36, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Market share should definitely covered. What's up with this edit? There isn't even an explanation in the edit summary why it was removed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Market share is listed at Mobile operating system. I don't see market share on iOS or webOS, so I don't see why it's appropriate here. Illegal Operation (talk) 03:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

WP7's market share is obviously notable in an article about WP7. Readers shouldn't have to go to some peripheral article to find out about WP7. Also, neither iOS or webOS are WP:FA or even WP:GA, so WP:OTHERSTUFF applies. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

There are many different data: anybody can do sampling and have data. As a result, I tend to avoid adding these type of data in the article. The last thing we need is a list of "data" from a bunch of sites. Illegal Operation (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Do you really want a section like this?: "Microsoft reported on December 21, 2010 that in the first 6 weeks phone manufacturers sold 1.5 million Windows Phone 7 devices to mobile operators and retailers. On January 26, 2011 Microsoft stated that in the 4th quarter of 2010 it had sold more than 2 million Windows Phone 7 licenses for phones, which manufacturers had delivered to mobile operators and retailers. In January 2011, LG reported about its own handsets: "From an industry perspective we had a high expectation, but from a consumer point of view the visibility is less than we expected". At CEBIT Preview, Deutsche Telekom told Yahoo that its Windows Phone 7 handsets are selling better than expected. According to NPD Group, a group specialized in films, movies, and video games, Windows Phone 7 achieved a market-share of 2% among smartphones sold to consumers in the United States, 2 months after release, in the 4th quarter of 2010. On February 2, 2011, T-Mobile USA said of Windows Phone 7: "We’ve done well with the devices that we sold.” On the 15th February 2011 Omar Khan, Chief Strategy Officer at Samsung Telecommunications America, said Samsung’s Focus handset, which was launched on AT&T last November along with a handful of other Windows Phone 7 devices, has sold well, but did not provide specific sales figures." Illegal Operation (talk) 04:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

What I would expect is a section that explains that WP7 has sold poorly so far, but analysts are predicting that WP7 would become the dominent OS in a few year's time. I would also expect its relative position to other phone OS's to be explained. Not sure why this is controversial. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't want dumps of information which is what this section always become. Also, I don't see what other mobile operating systems have anything to do with Windows Phone article. Those information belongs on the Mobile operating system. That article mostly talk about market share, market projection, and comparing the OS. Illegal Operation (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added the market share section again. Once Q2 data for 2011 become available, we should add them as well. The market share includes a proper reference. I don't understand why this information should not be provided in the article on WP7? Please note that this is just stating a fact, i.e. entirely NPOV. -- Enemenemu (talk) 20:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I think market share belongs in the article. Right now, it's running 3 editors to 1 in favor of inclusion. I suggest that Illegal Operation should stop edit-warring this out of the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I also agree that the marketshare information should belong here as long as it is not speculative, presented in a neutral way, and is regularly updated. In the past there have been lines like "Android has outsold WP7 16:1" or "Analysts predict that by 2015 WP7 will be the second most used mobile OS". That does not belong here and I expect it to be edited out if it's ever put in again. Sources like ComScore and NetApplications are considered solid and as long as we keep it to the bare unbiased numbers I think we'll be good. Captain Stack (talk) 22:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why Enemenemu doesn't add this information to the mobile operating system page. The data on page is seriously out of dated and the article talks mostly about market share. Just because there's a data doesn't means it belongs on a page. Would you put the data of "How many people believe the earth is flat?" on the Earth article? This data is definitely very valuable and I do not dispute its accuracy, I just don't believe that this article is the best to put it. Illegal Operation (talk) 22:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

There are two issues here. The first is whether or not the information is valid. Exactly how out of date is this information? The second is whether or not this information belongs in the article. I think the answer to this is simple. If you want to compare mobile OSs then you go to Mobile Operating System and if you want to know about WP7 then you go to Windows Phone 7. If you wanted to know Windows Phone 7's marketshare, you'd go to Windows Phone 7. This information should be on the mobile OS page too, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be here. We all agree that this section shouldn't be a hate dump section and nobody is trying to put in anything like that (right now). What exactly are you afraid of having to clean up? Captain Stack (talk) 23:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I am afraid of the "sample" section I've posted above ^^^. At first, it was just a sentence talking about market share then it became a full blown hate section on Windows Phone. The other thing I don't want is a section that just list different market share data from different websites. Who knows, maybe a different site said that Windows Phone has 8% market share and another said that it has 6%. Are we going to list all of them? Illegal Operation (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, the market share data on the mobile operating system article is out-of-date. The data is from "October 2010". If Enemenemu cares so much about market share, why doesn't he update that page? Illegal Operation (talk) 23:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Illegal Operation: Please stop edit-warring. If you revert it one more time, I will report you to WP:AN/EW. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Weasel Words

I noticed that a Weasel Words banner has recently been added to the Reception section. I wrote most of this section and so I'm wondering how other people feel about it. I think the information is highly accurate and much of it is well cited, but I do see what the editor was getting at when he added the banner. Does anyone else think this is a big problem and if so, how do you think it could be improved? Captain Stack (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, removal of the section may be the easiest option. Because the section is based on opinion, it's open to biased. Illegal Operation (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that in all honesty. However, lots of other pages have reception section and I don't see why there should be so much controversy over this one. Isn't this how most Reception sections read? Captain Stack (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, it's hard to write "reviews" without them being biased. If you can fix the reviews so that they aren't "biased", then I'm all for it. It's just that I've hard time doing so. Illegal Operation (talk) 23:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

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