Misplaced Pages

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Template:Rfcid The RfC seeks to clearly and more precisely define how WP:COMMONNAME is applied in article namespaces for languages and names with diacritics. It also seeks to define more precise circumstances under which article titles are expected to use diacritics, and when not. The change will ratify the current practice on English Misplaced Pages. The underlying thinking is that diacritics are of varying importance depending on the foreign language, and ought to be respected as much as possible; alternative names that are universally and habitually used by English-speakers will retain their traditional Anglicised forms.

High quality sources such as National Geographic and Britannica already use diacritics extensively in the same manner as is proposed here. Other sources use them to a greater or lesser extent (see below). many people feel that correct spelling of names of people and places whose origins are 'non-English' is a matter of precision and respect to the person or country of their origin; a word with the diacritics may mean something utterly different in its absence; others are confused how the use of diacritics could be reconciled with common English usage, which does not generally employ diacritics. In the interests of greater precision, consistency and clarity for editors and readers alike, the practice needs to be properly defined in Misplaced Pages.

What are diacritics

Main article: Diacritic

A diacritic is an ancillary glyph added to a letter, or basic glyph that may appear above or below a letter, or in some other position such as within the letter or between two letters. The term derives from the Greek διακριτικός (diakritikós, "distinguishing"). Some diacritical marks, such as the acute ( ´ ) and grave ( ` ) are often called accents.

Function

Diacritics in the Latin alphabet are employed mainly to modify the sound value of the letter to which they are added. In English, the diaeresis (two dots above the i) in naïve and Noël show that the vowel is pronounced separately from the preceding vowel; the acute and grave 'accents' indicate that a final vowel is to be pronounced, as in saké and poetic breathèd. The c-cedilla (as in 'façade' shows the 'c' is soft. In other Latin alphabets, they may distinguish between homonyms, such as French là "there" versus la "the", which are both pronounced . In Gaelic type, a dot over consonants indicates lenition of the consonant in question. In other alphabetic systems, diacritics may perform other functions.

In orthography and collation, a letter modified by a diacritic may be treated either as a new, distinct letter or as a letter–diacritic combination. This varies from language to language, and may even vary from case to case within a language. In some cases, letters are used as "in-line diacritics" in place of ancillary glyphs, because they modify the sound of the letter preceding them, as in the case of the "h" in English "sh" and "th".

The English alphabet consists of the 26 letters we all learned since singing as a toddler, and can occasionally include graphemes and diacritics. In the globalised 21st century world, with the trend for information to flow outside of borders, the English alphabet is showing its limitations. National alphabets are only capable of capturing the pronunciations that are characteristic of the given language. What is more, English is known for its grammatical and pronunciation idiosyncrasies; It is woefully inadequate when trying to capture pronunciations of even many other languages with Romanised characters and standardised pronunciations, such as French and Czech. In many such languages, characters with diacritics are letters in their own right. Removal of these crudely by stripping out the diacritics amounts to a lack of respect – imagine if someone systematically removes one letter, like all the 'a's, from your name; or constantly address you as 'Jimbo' (common name, no?) when you prefer 'James'.

WP is technologically capable of displaying a very wide range of diacritics; we also have armies of editors from various linguistic backgrounds happy to ensure all this is carried out properly. Both these are advantages that can and do give great service to our readers. The Mediawiki software allows for creation of redirects

The letters 'ç' and 'é', for example, are already loan-letters in our alphabet (viz their fairly pervasive use: café, façade, rôle). Use of other letters, such as the 'á' (long a), 'ř' ('r' with a haček), for which there are no equivalents, gives clues to a different pronunciation. The reader may not know exactly how such words are pronounced, but they may be at least made aware that it isn't to be pronounced as they might expect an English word to be; those curious will initiate their own enquiries. Thankfully for a famous namesake, 'Dvorak' is now universally familiar, even when the haček is absent. However, for poor Jiří Novák, English people seeing the bare 'Jiri Novak' would undoubtedly call him "Jerry Novak" instead of pronouncing his name as it should be – "Yirzhi Novaak". In the absence of official transliteration policies for the nation concerned, none of these is correct. Removing diacritics from names that natively have them amounts to misrepresentation and loss of crucial linguistic information.

Anglicisation alternatives

1. Leaving diacritics as they are
2. Stripping out the diacritics
3. Transliteration

In general, how to replace a letter correctly depends on the language as well as the letter. We often see For some modified letters there are rules for replacing them by more easily available letters (such as the German 'ü', often substituted by 'ue' when Anglicised), when necessary. In some cases these rules are more complicated than just using the unadorned base letter. E.g. 'ö' becomes 'oe' in German words, but 'o' in Swedish words. If a Swedish resident has a German name we are in trouble.

The practice of stripping out diacritics has its origins in text rendering in ASCII. Today, we have unicode characters, which offer the possibility of rendering all Latin characters and more, and such replacements are generally considered acceptable where they are necessary for technical reasons. They are increasingly considered unacceptable where the technical problems do not apply and the focus is on a proper name itself. (This applies both in the original languages and in English.)

Popular myths

1. There are no diacritics in English language

   see English words with diacritics and wikt:Appendix:English_words_with_diacritics

Current wording

The use of modified letters (such as accents or other diacritics) in article titles is neither encouraged nor discouraged; when deciding between versions of a word which differ in the use or non-use of modified letters, follow the general usage in English reliable sources (including other encyclopedias and reference works). The policy on using common names and on foreign names does not prohibit the use of modified letters, if they are used in the common name as verified by reliable sources.

Proposed wording

The use of diacritics in proper nouns from languages with a roman script should be respected. Native forms of such words should be used in article titles as appropriate. Common renderings without diacritics (where used in English-language sources) may also appear in the body of the article if that rendering can be cited to reliable sources. Both native and non-diacritic renderings must be adequately cited. A loan word should carry its original diacritics only when they are commonly used in English-language sources. For languages not defined here, the general usage in English reliable sources (including other encyclopedias and reference works) should be followed. The policy on using common names and on foreign names does not prohibit the use of modified letters, if they are used in the common name as verified by reliable sources.

• List of languages

1. Basque, Catalan, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Provençal, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish, Swedish, and Turkish

Implications of the change

The implications are not huge. It is already common practice to use diacritics on Misplaced Pages. For example:

• There exists consensus within certain projects (e.g. WP:HOCKEY) to use diacritics for individuals of foreign origin.
• Category:Polish people, 20 out of 20 articles that can use a diacritic did so
• Category:Polish people stubs 115 out of 120 articles that can use a diacritic, did so. The remaining four were expatriates, who seem to be mostly discussed without a diacritic.
• Category:Poland geography stubs, 81 out of 82 articles that can use a diacritic, did so.
• the vast majority of articles on French subjects have correct use of diacritics in categories such as Stub-Class France articles, the use of diacritics is largely correctly and consistently applied.
• none of articles on Chinese subjects have diacritics in categories such as Chinese people stubs. Few articles in Category:Japanese people stubs employ diacritics.
• In Category:Vietnamese_people and Category:Vietnamese people stubs, less than half employ diacritical marks.

"How would you verify the names or titles?"

The primary requirement for an article on a subject is notability. The sources needed to demonstrate that notability will enable verification; it will usually include at least one citation in the language of the subject's origin.

"Will articles such as Japan, Munich, Copenhagen, Charles Bridge, Ho Chi Minh City, Moscow, Fou Ts'ong and Martina Navratilova be renamed 'Nihon', 'München', 'København' 'Karlův most', 'Hồ Chí Minh City', 'Москва́', 'Fu Cong' and 'Martina Navrátilová' respectively?"

No. Whilst the article on Jiří Novák – who is not widely and internationally known – should be at Jiří Novák, and not Jiri Novak, the above are examples of common names. Although the subjects are of foreign origin, these words and names that have become Anglicised and are internationally recognised as same. Navratilova is herself a naturalised American citizen, and has abandoned the use of accents in her name.

"Will Đặng Hữu Phúc, Category:People from Hokkaidō, Shōnan be renamed 'Dang Huu Phuc', 'Category:People from Hokkaido', 'Shonan' respectively?"

Yes. These latter are 'common names' – although of foreign origin, these names have become Anglicised and are internationally recognised as same. Furthermore, the names are derived from non-European non-Roman-script languages, so diacritics use is not replicated.

"Why has xxx language been excluded?"

Non-Latin scripts cannot necessarily be mapped letter for letter onto English. Different authorities use different systems of transliteration.

Sinitic languages are mostly monosyllabic languages, identification depends on a complex script and pronunciations reliant on tones, overlaid with heavy contextual clues. There is no such person called Li Na, and there never will be. The tennis player is named 李娜, and Mao Zedong's daughter is named 李讷 – both phonetically represented as 'Li Na'. In these case, the diacritics only give a clue to which one of the four tones in Mandarin to adopt None of the Roman script clues is of any help in identifying among the hundreds of hieroglyphs possible for each character. It's the equivalent of using only an initial to identify an individual. On the other hand, Li Na (fencer), Li Na (tennis), Li Na (cyclist), Li Na (diver) all have identical heiroglyphs (李娜) – a bit like 'John Smith', but it would be impossible to know that without referring to the hieroglyph in cases such as these.

"The article I'm looking for probably has diacritics, but I haven't a clue. How will I find it?"

The Misplaced Pages search box is very versatile, and can be used to access any article without using diacritics. Readers can type a version omitting all accents and they are subsequently redirected to an article containing full name. It is beneficial to anyone and it cannot damage neither the encyclopaedia nor the English language. Because of Misplaced Pages's technical platform, its outlook and its pillars and its international contributor-base, this project should be a modern reference point providing undistorted facts, especially in case of proper names.

List of languages within the scope of the change

Broadly, these would include all European languages employing Roman script, plus Turkish

• Czech
• Danish
• Dutch
• Finnish,
• French (inc. *Provençal)
• German
• Hawaiian
• Hungarian
• Icelandic
• Irish
• Italian
• Latvian
• Lithuanian
• Māori
• Norwegian
• Polish
• Portuguese
• Romanian
• Slovak
• Slovene
• Spanish (inc. *Catalan)
• Swedish
• Turkish

External practices

Not all external organisations use diacritics; others use them to varying degrees. While The New York Times limits diacritics use to French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and German words and names, avoiding accents in words or names from other less familiar languages, it emphasises non-use principally to avoid errors and ensure consistency. The United States Government Printing Office recognises that diacritical marks are not used with anglicised words; foreign words carry the diacritical marks as an essential part of their spelling.

The following is a summary list is of external journals or organisations that use diacritics to some degree, and is without specific annotation. Please refer to User:Prolog/Diacritical_marks#External_guides for more details:

Academic publications and publishers

• American Journal of International Law
• Bioscience Horizons
• Journal of Baltic Studies
• University of Virginia Press
• Wiley-Blackwell

Educational and scientific institutions

• American Society for Horticultural Science
• American Sociological Association
• British Council
• Council of Science Editors
• IEEE Computer Society
• National Geographic Society; Society for American Archaeology; UNESCO

International organisations

• European Commission
• IAEA
• United Nations Development Programme
• World Bank

National agencies

• United States Agency for International Development
• United States Government Printing Office

Newspapers and magazines

• The Economist
• The Guardian
• The New York Times
• The Times

Style guides

• Chicago Manual of Style
• The Christian Writer's Manual of Style

See also

• Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (proper names) – guideline for proper names, such as place names and personal names.
• Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names). More on use of alternate names, and of contemporary names and transliterations. Some advice may be applicable to non-geographic names.
• Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) – specific rules for Western royalty and nobility.

Votes

Please indicate your choice below in the relevant sub-sections. Your comments should be limited to one or two lines of text. All discussion and detailed arguments should take place on the talk page.

Support

1. as proposer. --Ohconfucius 04:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   As written currently this RFC lacks neutrality. See my comment on the talk page. Hot Stop (c) 18:30, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

2. Māori should be added as one of the languages this applies to.-gadfium 05:20, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
3. Proposed wording is not perfect but a big improvement on the current version. Scottish Gaelic and Welsh could also be added to the list of languages. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 07:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
4. Seems like a sensible well thought through proposal. Making the guidelines clearer is always a significant net positive. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:06, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
5. An improvement over what we have now. —Kusma (t·c) 08:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
6. A much needed improvement. Proposed guideline is clearer, embodies current best practice, and ensures Misplaced Pages doesn't wind up as a "resource for the 20th century" when most major serious sources and resources have already (also) adopted this practice.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   "Most serious sources"? Does that mean The Guardian, The Independent, The Telegraph and The Times (you don't have to subscribe to see the headline on the front page) are not serious sources? There doesn't seem to be a single major English language source that doesn't use the "Djokovic" spelling.Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Please see the list already provided above . This list could in fact be greatly expanded.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Yes I saw the list, but as I pointed out, the Guardian and Times quite clearly do not use diacritics for everything, and so to include them is misleading. This proposal would affect every page, even where the use of diacritics is not appropriate given usage patterns. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   You're right in that newspapers tend to be pretty inconsistent in their usage. This is part of the reason why newspapers and magazines are actually pretty low on my list of "serious sources". Other encyclopedias and academic sources, in my opinion, make for a better reference point.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   No, Misplaced Pages prefers secondary sources such as newspapers to tertiary ones such as other encyclopedias (see WP:RS) and I don't see an exemption for naming conventions. In the meantime, the inaccurate and misleading examples should be removed from the list above. Absconded Northerner (talk) 19:28, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

7. Yes, a move in the right direction; the precise wording still needs discussion, but it reflects long-established practice much better than the current wording of the guideline does.--Kotniski (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
8. Support. I think the wording could be better; personally, I'd rather keep it simple and just put more emphasis on using the spelling that reliable sources use (the choice of article title should not necessarily be dominated by en sources to the exclusion of others, but if en sources use a distinct (ie. unaccented) spelling then as a minimum that spelling should be covered with a redirect and a mention in the lede.). However, as it stands, I think this proposal is a big step forward. bobrayner (talk) 09:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
9. Support. With the emphasis on the spelling using diacritics being widely available in reliable sources. --HighKing (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
10. Support. We need a better guideline as even though this is only a small isue, it is creating way too many conflicts. Also it embodies best practice used in Misplaced Pages. --Sporti (talk) 11:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
11. Support this step in the correct direction. The list of languages is a little lacking, some of the more obvious omissions are Albanian, Croatian, Serbian and Vietnamese. See List of languages by writing system#Latin alphabet for plenty more; I’m not saying list all of them, but there are a lot that are more deserving than Provençal]). —MTC (talk) 12:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
12. Support - and absolutely remove the list of languages because we are never going to list them all and we already lack some rather large languages like the ones mentioned above.--Avala (talk) 12:36, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
13. Support - In the end this will end the bickering- But the list of languges should be changed to "languages with roman/latin script". Agathoclea (talk) 12:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
14. Support. Not perfect, yet much needed reform and a giant leap forward for our policy. - Darwinek (talk) 13:11, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
15. We should spell things how they are meant to be spelled. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 16:53, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    That does not jive with the English language sources, so that is against common name policy.SaysWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? (talk) 16:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

16. Support I would add that the use of diacritics (with the obvious exceptions) is also the standard in all Misplaced Pages projects that I'm aware of (French, German, Spanish and so on). Opposers below seem to think that using diacritics is somehow in violation of the English language itself and that this whole thing is a conspiracy by foreigners who should just go back to their little diacritic-filled corner of the universe. It's not a conspiracy. Usage of diacritics is standard in scholarly work and although Misplaced Pages doesn't yet qualify as scholarly work, that level of quality and precision is still the ultimate objective. Pichpich (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    Umm, other projects use diacritics because their respective languages use them. Hot Stop (c) 18:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    English is English and English doesn't use diacritics like all of the stuff you site. Most if not all English languages sources and publications refers to people without the usage of diacritics. If it's not in the English alphabet don't be bringing that stuff and putting it on here. That should be the standard to go by the alphabet, period end of story!SaysWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? (talk) 18:20, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    This is all ridiculous. Each language uses only a small percentage of all the letter-diacritic combinations that exist globally. Yet the universal practice in encyclopedias and other reference works, not just the English ones such as Misplaced Pages, Britannica and Webster, but also German and French reference works and probably those in most other languages as well, is to use foreign diacritics in the large majority of cases. There seems to be a peculiar fear of some native speakers of English that their language might suffer from foreign infiltration. I cannot otherwise explain this bizarre resistance to precision in the place where it is most appropriate: In articles about foreign people and entities who don't have English names. Hans Adler 20:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    To Hot Stop: do your research. French, German and Spanish do not have the haček (as in Dominik Hašek) or the ø (as in Søren Kierkegaard) yet the corresponding articles on es.wiki, de.wiki and fr.wiki all use the diacritics. German does not have acute accents but de:René Char, French does not use ó but fr:Juan Ramón Jiménez, Spanish does not use ö but es:Henrik Rödl. They use diacritics because it's the way to convey precise information. Pichpich (talk) 22:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    No, it's because those are the common names. Like Antonín Dvořák on this wiki. I don't think anyone is arguing against never using diacriticals anywhere, just where those spellings are not used in standard reliable sources. Absconded Northerner (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    I don't know about the other Wikipedias that you mention, but it is not true for the French one, for example see fr:Zurich. The French language has an overseeing commission that rules on correct French usage, English has no such commission so we have to rely on usage. On Wikiepdia we decide that by using reliable English language sources. Without knowing the rules for Italian and Spanish they use it:Zurigo and es:Zúrich, they do not use the same spelling as is used by the natives of Zurich. -- PBS (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

    "Usage of diacritics is standard in scholarly work" if that is so then there is no need for this change of wording as that usage will be reflected in the usage in reliable English language sources and so is supported by the current wording. -- PBS (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

    I am not thrilled by the precise wording of this proposal, but something like this became necessary because of disputes about articles that are not covered in scholarly sources, have no chance of ever being covered in scholarly sources, and in fact are only barely mentioned in reliable English sources. This is mostly about semi-notable people such as tennis players and hockey players who are barely known outside their (diacritcs-using) home countries. The only English sources that are writing about them are usually sources that routinely strip off all diacritics for simplicity. (Example: Björn Borg, who appears as "Bjorn Borg" in the American sports-centric press, is notable enough so that we can check how better sources deal with him. He is spelled correctly in Britannica etc., and mostly correctly in the quality press.)

    Zurich seems to be a special case in French. It is certainly a special case in English: It is one of very few genuine English names for a foreign entity that just happen to look like the original spelling minus diacritics. Similarly, "Napoleon" isn't Napoléon minus the acute, but rather it's the English name. But "Gyor" is not a an English name but a convenience spelling for Győr (here we have the interesting case that there is also an intermediate spelling "Györ" around, which of course is also not a separate English name), and "Bjorn Borg" is not an English name of Björn Borg.

    The question is: When we know that English reference works would write a name with diacritics if the found it worthwhile to write about a person at all, should we follow the practice of the sports press and remove the diacritics, or should we just do what is clearly the right thing in our context? The latter happens to be what we have been doing for years, but as it's not codified anywhere, the practice has come under severe attack over recent weeks. We are talking about potentially removing diacritics from more than 5% of our article titles. Hans Adler 09:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

17. Support Omitting diacritics does not make the articles easier to find (since wiki searchbox readily finds those articles when their titles without the diacritics are typed in) or read, yet it detracts from quality because any omission implies lesser quality per se. Furthermore as WP:UE already spells this type of use I believe WP:AINT applies in this case too. On the final note, listing languages serves no purpose as this applies to all Latin script languages (including English: e.g. Café).--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    WP:UE allows use of diacritics if they're commonly. This new policy would mandate their use in certain instances, regardless of how reliable sources use them. Also, WP:AINT would appear to be a reason to oppose these changes, not support them. Hot Stop (c) 18:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    It's a matter of how does one define a common name - but I'd rather carry on this on the talk page.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

18. This seems reasonable. We can and should of course always have redirects from the versions without diacrital marks - rendering the argument that it's too hard to type with the diacritics moot, in my opinion. LadyofShalott 18:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

    This seem entirely unreasonable because it puts an undue burden on the editors to have to find appropriate diacratics for the refering to the name in the text of the articles. Not only is that an undue burden, it makes everything on the page inaccurate via navboxes and start boxes. Furthermore, when refering the the atp and itf in the external links on Novak Djokovic page, which one is the tour and the other the governing body of tennis, who both refers to Djokovic without diacritic it makes them liars. I think we should do this on a case-by-case basis, and go with the governing body of the sport or at the least the English alphabet.SaysWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? (talk) 18:53, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

19. Per fetchcomms. I've never really agreed with the broad scope which WP:COMMONNAME is applied, especially to cases where a common name really isn't a proper, encyclopedic name. Adopting this will increase our level of professionalism. Of course, proper redirects should always be created to avoid having to type an odd letter. ThemFromSpace 20:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
20. Support - The proposal reflects current practice. NB. Scottish Gaelic and Welsh should be added to the list of languages. Daicaregos (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
21. The current wording (which follows this 2008 rewrite) does not reflect standard practice. Similar to the practices of other English-language encyclopedias (such as Britannica and Columbia), case-by-case popularity contests are not preferred over accuracy and consistency, especially with personal names. Due to the high number of articles we have compared to the other encyclopedias, we can not always look to the most reliable and relevant sources for guidance. Fortunately, we can and we do still follow the encyclopedic style in cases where Misplaced Pages is the first encyclopedia to write about a certain topic. The consistency in using diacritical marks is also in line with the recommendations of numerous external style guides. The proposed wording is a step in the right direction. Prolog (talk) 20:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
22. Support Good idea Paulista01 (talk) 23:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
23. Support, along with redirects from any relevant "other" rendering. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
24. Support. We're an encyclopaedia. We report the facts, including diacritics. There are no downsides to getting it right: readers who encounter unfamiliar diacritics are perfectly capable of mentally stripping them off, and diacritics are no barrier to searching, thanks to the excellent search box, and no barrier to editing thanks to cut-and-paste and to the Unicode box available to every editor. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:13, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'm not liking the way this whole petition is written. Very one-sided, but I'm guessing that's on purpose. In tennis the ATP, WTA, US Open, Hall of Fame usually do not use diacritics. Those sources should always take precedent in tennis articles. I'd use the Press before Britannica. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:53, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
2. The current wording is fine, and does not need to be changed. Article titles should continue to reflect common usage in English-language sources. --Elonka 07:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   That's the point - they can't "continue to" do that, because they don't. Common usage is usually without diacritics; Misplaced Pages usage is usually with diacritics (to the great benefit of its encyclopedic value). The current wording is not fine chiefly because it is an untrue statement of our practices.--Kotniski (talk) 09:24, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   I find it to the detriment of this English wikipedia. Common usage should rule with the diacritic spelling shown as an alternate in parenths. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Whether common usage includes diacritics or not usually depends on the context (they are typically used in scholarly publications, and less used in sports journalism). —Kusma (t·c) 09:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   So what is the problem with using whatever is commonly used in reliable English language sources? Which depending on the subject of the article may be newspapers or scholarly publications or both? -- PBS (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

   To be clear, my own preference is that article titles should use non-diacritic versions, unless it can be shown that English-language sources are routinely using a diacritic version. This is in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. I understand that there is a very vocal group which wants article titles to reflect "home" spelling with diacritics, as the name would appear in its original language. I disagree with that for Misplaced Pages though, especially when it involves using unfamiliar characters such as " Þórr" or others that typical English-speakers are not familiar with. It makes searching, categorizing, alphabetizing, and many other activities much more difficult. If the New York Times and other major sources start using those diacritics in a routine manner, then fine, Misplaced Pages can adapt to match. But if that's not the case, then let's stick with the forms that are most recognizable in the title, and then we can put more detailed versions in the lead, just as we do with names that are in Chinese, Arabic, or any other unusual script. --Elonka 15:30, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

3. Sure, diacritics exist in English, but not on English keyboards. Use diacritics in the lead to show their actual name, but beyond that is unnecessary and untidy. Sellyme 08:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Except that they actually mean that you could mis-pronounce people's names and they are only going to be used when they are common anyhow. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Untrue. In tennis articles the vast majority of people will see names spelled through the Press and official tennis websites... those do not usually use diacritics yet wiki gets stuck with the diacritics anyways. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

4. Per Elonka. The current system of using the most common English spelling is the most sensible. Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
5. The original wording follows common name better. If diacritics are used in reliable English sources then they can and should be used in the article, if not then it is best to use the most recognisable form. AIRcorn (talk) 08:38, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
6. This proposal is an ambiguous flamewar-creator. It first says that diacritics should be respected, and then says that you may use non-diacritic versions if they can be cited to reliable sources. As we well know, most reliable sources such as magazines, will use the name without diacritics, as such the proposals effect for every single affected article will mean we have reliable sources without diacritics. The result will undoubtedly be that some will scream "It should use diacritics" and the other group will scream "but I have reliable sources!" This proposal has not been widely discussed on the talk page, and lacks the foundations needed for this change. It should have been discussed first, and the problems could have been avoided. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   One might be tempted to agree with you if flame wars were not already occurring. The proposal isn't perfect, but it should at least draw the line clearly that articles on Czech ice-hockey players with diacritics in their names who play only in the Czech Republic should occupy primarily a namespace with diacritics. --Ohconfucius 10:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Yes, flamewars are already occurring. The current flamewars are because the policy as of today can be interpreted in several ways, and that the pro-diacritic camp can interpret it to support them and the anti-diacritics camp can interpret it their way. Your proposal has the same problem, but is using stronger language. The result is that the flamewars will continue, and might even gets worse, because the policy is more clearly stated to strongly support both camps. If we make a policy change we have three options:

   1. We either clearly prefer diacritics, and *only* use diacritics when the non-diacritic version is established in English, as supported by dictionaries or encyclopedias, or
   2. We prefer non-diacritics as supported by a majority of English-language sources (because most sources like newspapers etc will not use them) and only use diacritics when that version is established in English, as supported by dictionaries and encyclopedias, or
   3. We try to clarify the policy step by step in a slow procedure.

   I attempted the last with my proposal to include examples with diacritics, but although we had a consensus to add examples, none of the suggested examples got any notable amount of support, so that died. That means we should make a clear change. Your proposal is not this clear change. The ambiguity of COMMONNAME is in your proposal no longer because it doesn't mention diacritics, but now because it explicitly supports both camps. That doesn't work. Most reliable sources on the Czech hockeyplayers will not use diacritics, so your proposal will still lead to flamewars. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   However if we have a Czech ice-hockey player with diacritics in his name who plays only in the Czech Republic... he will likely not be notable enough for his own article. He may show up on an Olympic page. Then we'll look at how the Olympics spell his name in programs and what the NY Times, LA Times, London Times and Sports Illustrated write. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   On the contrary, my understanding of WP:NHOCKEY is that any ice hockey player who plays one senior match in the Czech Extraliga (the Czech national league) is presumed to be notable. Jenks24 (talk) 17:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

7. This is a bad faith attempt to legislate editor's behavior from the top, nevermind the fact that it's a fairly transparent crusade to "fix" English and legitimize the behavior of several drafters in imposing their editorial view on the rest of the English Misplaced Pages. Not only should this proposal be defeated, but the drafters ought to be sanctioned.
   — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 11:55, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   Your name is nice and interesting, V = IR. My name is Antonín Vejvančický. I'm crusading for accuracy. I don't want to "fix" and make my name English, because it is impossible. Antonin Vejvancicky is not English, it is nonsense. I told about it to my friends, we tried to spell our names without diacritics and it was a big and somewhat stupid fun. But it is not fun here on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is a serious encyclopedic project that should provide correct information. There's no intention to steal your English, and I assume you know it very well. Do you want to sanction us because of this legitimate proposal?? Feel free to do so, and please let me know about it. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 19:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

   No, you are crusading against accuracy. If your name is spelled (in English as well as Czech) with diacritics, then the present policy says to spell it that way. But thst's true of your name, not of everybody's; it's inaccurate to misrepresent theirs. And, above all, you're crusading. Please stop. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

8. The proposal would create a conflict with WP:COMMONNAME. Our policies and guidelines should work together, not conflict. Blueboar (talk) 12:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
9. Creates a conflict with WP:COMMONNAME, which works fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
10. I prefer the current wording. The usage of sources should be more important that some semi-arbitrary list of languages. Also, I disagree with treating Catalan as a dialect of Spanish (and Occitan of French), I'd say “a dot over consonants indicated lenition” as few people do that any more, I wouldn't be so adamant that “here is no such person called Li Na, and there never will be” (exercise for the reader: find out what the most common family names in Canada are), and words like Cruithne are very likely to be mispronounced by non-Irish speakers even if they have no diacritics. That said, I wouldn't object to adding suggestions of what to do when several usages are common in reliable English-language secondary sources, but that wouldn't be “prefer diacritics for words in these languages but not for others”. ― A. di M.​_plé​ 14:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
11. This is the English-language wikipedia. We should use the common form in English. DrKiernan (talk) 14:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
12. Strongly oppose. Any propoaal with "should be respected" in it means "Do what I say; I'll tell you what I say later." The proponents are, however, correct to say that we should use diacritics sometimes, and that they are, in some words, common in English now; but that's what the guideline already says. Therefore change is unnecessary; the only effect of this would be to spread such bizarre forms as Nguyễn Văn Thiệu even further than they already are; the late President of the former Republic is quite well known in English, as Thieu, and we should so spell him. (The Vietnamese diacritics should be included, as encyclopedic information, but they are useless to most readers, and no more needed throughout the article than long and short vowel marks in Latin - or English - words, both of which also exist.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
13. Oppose and concur with stated comments here current wording (usage common form English) should remain as it is.--Navops47 (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
14. Goes against the idea of WP:COMMONNAME. For example our article on Jaromir Jagr uses diacritics, but if you run a Google news search you find no diacritics. And note that ESPN's article on Petra Kvitova's Wimbledon win doesn't use diacritics, but we do. Hot Stop (c) 15:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose on the grounds of diacritics are not in the English language alphabet, and this is the English version of Misplaced Pages, and the rule is fully justified as it presently stands in the common name policy. The English version of "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources".SaysWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? (talk) 16:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
16. Oppose. 1) Notwithstanding the highly selective list in the proposal, the vast majority of English-language media do not routinely use diacritics. Even some in that list (e.g. the Guardian) usually do not include them in names - see their 2011 Wimbledon coverage where neither Djokovic nor Kitova include diacritics. 2) Loan words which have become incorporated into the English language almost universally lose their diacritic marks. The word 'cafe' is spelt without the mark in English, so is 'facade' and most of the other examples given. The only time such marks are included is when the loan word is still regarded as a part of the donor language, rather than English, and is usually typeset in italics at the same time. 3) WP:COMMONNAME applies - we use the spelling commonly used by English-language sources. If this includes diacritics, then we should use them. If not, we should not use them. 4) I think this RfC was badly presented: as an adversarial argument, a piece of persuasive writing if you will, rather than as an objective description of the issue and an acknowledgement of the arguments in both directions. Modest Genius 17:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
17. Oppose although it is difficult to work out from the wall of text what the actual proposal is. Modest Genius makes some very good points but basically the use of diacritics in English is rare outside of specialised media and hardly meets the general idea of common name to most english readers. MilborneOne (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
18. Oppose because it is far too general. Diacritics in languages more familiar to the English speaking world - such as French or German - are relatively common, well understood and more acceptable. Diacritics in others languages e.g. Eastern European languages - are largely incomprehensible. There needs to be a distinction. --Bermicourt (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
19. Oppose. This is not a well thought-out change. For guidance in helping to craft a better proposal, try first examining what nouns Encyclopedia Britannica uses diacritics on. If one is tempted to counter with something along the lines of “Unicode supports a broad set of characters and we need to keep up with the times,” think again. Fine encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica have for decades had access to a world of characters and diacriticals from the largest type foundries; their choices as when diacriticals should and shouldn’t be used is based on guidelines that are more thoughtful and nuanced than what is being proposed here. Back to the drafting board. Greg L (talk) 05:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
20. Oppose the proposed change. Reliable English language sources should be used to decide on the correct spelling of article titles. Using a self created rule based system, to either encourage or discourage the use of diacritics is not something that the community will agree on. Those who are willing to look at reliable sources in good faith can usually agree upon which is the most common usage in English, whatever their own personal tastes. The current guideline gives adequate guidance on what to do if there is no clear common spelling among reliable English language sources. -- PBS (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Comment regarding diacritics in some languages: I see Finnish and Swedish are listed above. However, in these languages Ä, Ö and Å are not considered A and O with diacritical marks, but are separate letters in their own right, even though they're written in the same way. Treating them as A and O is just wrong. However, Finnish does occasionally use carons (š and ž) in some loanwords, and Swedish occasionally uses the acute accent (é). These, in turn are diacritical marks.There are surely similar issues with other languages (Estonian for example). --KFP (contact | edits) 11:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The same goes for many other languages, especially with marks above consonants.--Avala (talk) 16:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• I would support more consistent usage of diacritics when there is no common name; but the wording as it stands now does not make it explicitly clear that WP:COMMONNAME still takes precedence over diacritic usage. That also appears to be the main argument of opposition. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 16:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• I honestly can't tell what exactly we're voting for or against here -- I don't have the time to read the entire article -- but I know that diacritics can be used to differentiate words of totally different meanings in Spanish, and they can also be important in poetic verse (for meter). For one example of a stylebook that assumes the anti-diacritics position, the Associated Press Stylebook says not to use umlauts, but the AP is only picky about that because some American newsroom softwares don't cope well with special characters, and they won't print them correctly. I don't think this problem affects Misplaced Pages, so we should stick with diacritics.--Jp07 (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Firstly, thanks to Ohconfucius for taking the time to create this RfC so that we can (hopefully) gain a consensus on this issue. In my opinion, the reason this is such a problem is because actual usage conflicts with the policy. I've participated in quite a few RMs involving diacritics in the mast few months and have generally argued for not using diacritics unless it can be shown that the use of diacritics is the common name in English sources. And yet, in nearly every single RM the consensus has been to move to the title (or remain at the title) that uses diacritics. I'm not trying to rehash any of these discussions, but please take a look at a few examples.

  Talk:Anže Kopitar#Rename/move article: A Slovene hockey player who is notable for playing in an American league (the NHL). Throughout the RM, not one English source is provided using diacritics and all 21 English language references in the article (all RS) do not use diacritics. Yet the consensus was to remain at the title with diacritics.

  Talk:Vladimír Búřil#Requested move: The large majority of English language sources do not use diacritics (including The New York Times). The people arguing for the use of diacritics at that RM claimed that we should not follow news sources, we should instead follow other encyclopaedias (and other similar works). However, none of these players (it was a multi-move) have articles in other encyclopaedias. The result was to move the articles to diacritics titles.

  Talk:Jakub Petružálek#Requested move: All English sources from google news (about 900 of them) do not use diacritics. No English language source that uses diacritics is provided throughout the entire RM. It was argued that any source that drops the diacritics is therefore not reliable and the consensus was to remain at the title with diacritics. Of particular note, an experienced RM closer, GTBacchus, noted in his closure that the community consensus appears to have changed and is now in favour of using diacritics.

  To me, there can only be two solutions. Either we get a consensus that COMMONNAME does not apply to diacritics or that is does. If we find consensus for the latter, I would ask that the users who have opposed this RfC actually participate in RMs more regularly because it seems clear that, at the moment, the community consensus at the article/guideline level is vastly different to the consensus that is found at the individual article level. Jenks24 (talk) 18:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

  Among the many problems with this post, that's not what Bacchus said. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

  • I think to use diacritics is unreliable in this English language Misplaced Pages, period. This is not the Serbian wikipedia, which it would be unreliable without the usage of such diacritics if it were this the Serbian Misplaced Pages. By the way, I will take part in those discussions since I now have knowledge of where to look for them, thanks on that matter.SaysWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
    • The reason that we have been discussing this issue at all is that this minor form of nationalist crusading has been tolerated too long. Those who would prefer writing in their native tongues to writing in English are free to do so; there are other Wikipedias for them, and other projects altogether. But this Misplaced Pages should be written in English, no matter how much those people who brough a general sanction on Eastern Europe would prefer otherwise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
      • I'm afraid you won't care but I'm not sure you realize how offensive those sentences are. Disagreeing is one thing. Asking people who disagree with you to leave the project is another. Pichpich (talk) 22:06, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that this is just par for the course for PMAnderson. He's made several obnoxious and offensive "love it or leave it" comments throughout this discussion and I have no idea why it has been tolerated.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Pmanderson has his own rules, and is exempt from Misplaced Pages policy. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I suggest Volunteer Marek and OpenFuture both re-read WP:NPA. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Other

• This isn't being done right. This voting needs to be withdrawn or redrawn. Best, --Discographer (talk) 19:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Don't talk nonsense: Dusseldorf and Gottingen have been used since the English began to write about foreign countries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

This is contrary to WP:IMOS, which is older than this page - and works. They have not been notified. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose the placing of this RFC on a page other than the talk page of the guideline. Proposals such as this RfC should be on the talk page of the guideline (see WP:PG). -- PBS (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment