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Revision as of 10:18, 6 July 2011

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
Article	Abortion-rights movement
Status	Open
Request date	22:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Requesting party	-- Eraserhead1 <talk>
Parties involved	Eraserhead1, Anthony Appleyard, Roscelese, HuskyHuskie, NYyankees51, Andrew c, CWenger, among others
Mediator(s)	User:Steven Zhang, User:NickDupree
Comment	Presented a proposed solution, awaiting opinions.

Request details

Where is the dispute?

Talk:Abortion-rights movement#Move?, but previous discussion has occurred on the other article talk pages.

Who is involved?

• User:Eraserhead1
• User:Anthony Appleyard
• User:Roscelese
• User:HuskyHuskie
• User:NYyankees51
• User:Andrew c
• User:CWenger
• User:Binksternet
• User:Haymaker

Acceptance of Mediation

Please place your signature here to indicate that you are aware of this mediation process and want to participate in it:

• -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
• I accept, but we need to invite more involved people - see here. NYyankees51 (talk) 03:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• I accept, and as one of the main users involved in starting the last few move discussions, I would be happy to provide background on my motivations for doing so. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• –CWenger (^ • @) 17:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• DeCausa (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• LedRush LedRush (talk) 19:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oh look... Another pro-life move discussion! Well, it's not like I have a Wikiproject to run, or a portal to get to Featured, or anything like that. Sign me up! I really have nothing better to do. Maybe we can get a couple hundred more editors signed up and bring the whole Pedia to a standstill. – Lionel 21:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• I added myself. Binksternet (talk) 05:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• I added myself, too, en passantbecause I wasn't sure I had to. PhGustaf (talk) 07:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• I accept, and hope this discussion can be without the hyperbole brought by a few editors from both sides. Dave Dial (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• As I so often do, I've arrived late to the party, but am glad to be here. HuskyHuskie (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
• Better late than never. - Haymaker (talk) 13:24, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
• I don't have much online time... but I'll do what I can.-Andrew c  14:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
• I added myself. --Jp07 (talk) 20:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• Andrewa (talk) 21:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• Thanks for the invitation but I am trying my best to stay away from disputed hot topics. Especially those that involve religion, politics and sex. It costed me allready an infinite ban in the italian language wikipedia and loosing my administrator priviliges in the sicilian language wikipedia (which I don't regret given the administrators and bureaucrats involved) over the "Catholic sex abuse cases". Have fun and let's try to enjoy the nice sides of life. Cheers. Maurice Carbonaro (talk) 08:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

What is the dispute?

The issue is that the Abortion articles have become confused, we can't decide what the best title for the pro-life and pro-choice articles are, and whether they should actually be merged into Abortion Debate. Move requests have been made but have failed to be closed promptly and haven't been conducted particularly well.

What would you like to change about this?

I would like the discussion to come to a sensible conclusion so we can decide how to structure the content in a way that everyone is happy with.

How do you think we can help?

Help us work out what the best way of structuring the content is, possibly with some less conventional methods of figuring out the best solution (e.g. straw polling). Some outside eyes would be useful here.

Mediator notes

Notes by Steven Zhang

Taking case. Will have a look over discussions then post my thoughts. Steven Zhang 23:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've done a lot of reading of the discussions, and have a few points to make. For the side of the debate in favour of pro-life/pro-choice, people have stated it is in common use on the internet, that they are parallel terms which don't present either subject in a more favourable light. Opposition to this name state that these terms are ambiguous, propagandist, loaded, and not of a neutral way that can be used on Misplaced Pages. There was also the issue that Pro-life is not a specific term, and that it could also refer to other topics.

The other side of the debate, which is accepting of the Abortion-rights/Anti-abortion state that the term is clear and encyclopedic and of a neutral point of view, with the main objection being that it presents one side of the debate (Abortion-rights) in a positive light with the other side (Anti-abortion) in a negative light.

This is a contentious topic, and opinions are clearly split pretty much down the middle. This one is going to require a compromise, and I don't think it's going to involve either of the names. We need to agree on two different names, that neutrally describe the articles. While one term might be clean and encyclopedic, with the other being commonly used, simply restating it here over and over again won't get us anywhere. Something needs to be done to stop these constant move discussions.

After doing some thought, I've thought of 2 possible names that the respective articles can be moved to. While not in common use, they are encyclopedic, and factual, and don't present either in a more positive light to the other.

Proposed:

• Move Abortion-rights movement -> Support for legalized abortion
• Move Pro-life movement -> Opposition to legalized abortion

These are not commonly used terms, however I feel is a reasonable compromise I feel we could agree to. The discussions have been going on for too long, and this a contentious dispute where real-life opinions weigh in. This isn't a case where discussions will change opinions of appropriate page names to be used (for the names that have been discussed). I feel the names I've proposed should work, not because they're in common use by RS, which generally is needed, but because they're neutral and factual descriptions of the articles, without any of the discussed issues associated with them. Sometimes we need to IAR in order to come up with a good solution. Let me know what you think of this proposal, but at the moment these discussions have been a tug-of-war, and I hope this proposal cuts the rope. Steven Zhang 21:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@LedRush- You say that one of these names has a tinge of non-neutrality. Could you clarify which one, and why you feel that way, as I am unclear as to how the names I've proposed could not be neutral. Simply put, both articles discuss the topic of legalized abortion, with one being in support of the idea, the other being opposed to the idea. These proposed names state basic facts, the article contains information on the viewpoints, whether in support or opposition, on the matter of legalized abortion. I'm not sure how more neutral we can get there, but if you feel there's a way we could improve this, please let me know. Steven Zhang 01:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@LedRush- It depends on how you look at it. It's more about the context of how it's used. Personally, I don't see "support of legalized abortion" more favourable than "opposition to legalized abortion". They're facts. Some people support the idea of legalized abortion, and some do not. The title isn't there to convey a viewpoint as much is it's to describe the content in the article. I agree it might not be a page name that ticks all the boxes for common usage as such, but it accurately conveys the topic of the article. The lead of the article can clarify commonly used names, but I feel this title would be the best compromise possible in this case. Steven Zhang 03:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nyyankee- From my reading and review of the discussions, there's no clear consensus for either article name. In the most recent discussion, opinions are split quite evenly, with reasonable arguments for both sides. From my reading of the discussions, an alternative article name is required, one that all can agree to. Hence why I've proposed this. Disruptive or not, an article name all can agree to is necessary, and from my assessment as a mediator, a change is needed. Simply discussing over and over the current article names has clearly not accomplished anything, and I think this will solve the issues. Steven Zhang 05:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Lionelt - As for your edit summary, it should end here. I'd like to point to my original comment, this dispute involves real-life opinions. We need to push these aside. Whether people who edit the article support or oppose abortion is irrelevant, and should not be reflected in the article title. Changing the title to what I've proposed would do that, and would end this debate, if all will agree to it. See my comments above. Steven Zhang 05:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the issue of how a consensus here would be implemented, it's quite simple. If there is a consensus to implement the changes I have proposed, I will make them, citing this mediation case. A requested move will not be required, as consensus will already have been made. Steven Zhang 07:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@TheFreeloader - Sometimes we need to IAR in order to have a complex dispute resolved. This has been discussed ad nauseaum, and no consensus has been reached. This is a solution that still accurately describes the subject of the article. As for common usage, of course there's going to be more usage for pro-life and pro-choice, most sources here come from the US, but this article covers the issue at large. I've thought of this for a long time, because nothing else has worked in the long discussions that have occured on the talk page. You (all parties) can either decide to continue this tug-of-war forever, or agree to cut your losses and come up with a compromise. Steven Zhang 08:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Lionel- I don't think speaking for everyone here is wise, as it seems there is a lot of people involved in this dispute, with varying opinions. I'd like to direct you to my previous comments, all of you. This dispute has absolutely nothing to do with how you feel about the subject of abortion in real life, which it is quite evident that it is. Stuff like common name, use in RS etc, is generally relevant and in any other situation I wouldn't propose this sort of compromise, but it's been going on for ages. Please consider a compromise here, as it is evident nothing else here will work. Regardless of your opinion, you have to acknowledge that the proposed article names on the talk page have had no consensus, so something else does need to be done. I hope we can work out something here. A compromise would suit everyone. The administrator that closed the discussion has also acknowledged that the debate is split down the middle, and that a compromise is required. Please consider my suggestion, otherwise I don't know how we can proceed from here.

@TheFreeloader - I've spoken with a few of my colleagues on Misplaced Pages who also do dispute resolution about this, and in a normal situation ignoring policies is not something I'd advise against in a normal situation, but in this instance, there is a lot of dispute over the name of the article, and in situations like this, we agree that this would be a situation where invoking IAR would be appropriate. That said, there seems to be dispute about which is a common name (with pro-life/pro-choice being primarily used in the United States), but abortion-rights/anti-abortion used commonly elsewhere. I'm from Australia, and I've never heard anyone use the terms pro-life, or pro-choice, when the subject of abortion comes up, we simply support it or oppose it. Maintaining a worldwide view of the subject is important, and at present these articles seem to heavily emphasise discussion of the subject in an American view. Of course a simple majority of the sources are going to use pro-life or pro-choice. Most sources used on Misplaced Pages are from an American origin, and systematic bias is common. I don't feel it's appropriate in this instance to name the articles based on common name, mainly because the name appears to be most common in the States, therefore somewhat not presenting a worldwide view of the subject. As the names of the article have been in dispute for a long time, and the same reasons for each name have been repeated over and over, I don't see it wise to keep with the status quo. This is why I've proposed these two names, they're factual, accurately describe the subject of article, and are neutral, and myself and my colleagues feel it's the best way to move forward here. Steven Zhang 02:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nyyankee - I don't think that your assessment to keep the article names as they are is a good one. The move discussion was for both proposals, either a move to pro-life/pro choice or to abortion-rights/anti-abortion. As neither option has a consensus, both should be thrown out of the window and two new titles should be worked on as a compromise. Otherwise, merely keeping the status quo in effect would defeat the purpose of the move discussion, and one option would be selected regardless of the fact there was no consensus for the option, which would simply cause move discussions to happen, over and over again. Please consider my proposal, as I feel it's somewhat of a middle ground. Steven Zhang 02:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

@All Parties - I'd like to remind you all that while Abortion is a very contentious topic, that your opinion of abortion in real life, should have no effect on articles on Misplaced Pages, whatsoever, and I have noticed that this is the case in this dispute. Please ensure that you are considering the interests of the encyclopedia above your own opinions. Consider the fact that the names of these articles have been under dispute for a long time, and that without a resolution all will agree to, these discussions will just continue on forever. Some of you support abortion, some of you do not. Misplaced Pages isn't going to change that, but you shouldn't change Misplaced Pages because of it. From the most recent move discussion, it is evident that there is no consensus for either the current names of the article, or any of the names that were proposed in that discussion. Discussing it again will not change that. Merely keeping the status quo (the articles as they presently are) would defeat the purpose of consensus and discussions on Misplaced Pages, as the move discussions were for both options. This is why I feel coming to a compromise, such as the one I've proposed, would be the best way to move forward. Sure, the names I've proposed aren't perfect, but I feel in a situation like this one it's the best option there is to take, which would hopefully put this dispute on article naming, to rest. Steven Zhang 03:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nyyankee - No. There was no consensus for either the current option or proposed options, so neither should be used, and a new proposal should be made. Otherwise, we're stuck in the status quo, which has the least support out of any proposal. What I've proposed is a middle ground. Simply repeating that because the move discussion did not form a consensus does not mean that what is currently the case in terms of naming should stay, and a change needs to be made. Steven Zhang 23:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

@All Parties - I've been approached by a user, NickDupree (talk · contribs) who has an interest into getting into dispute resolution. I've added him as a co-mediator to the case, and he will at times make comments or give suggestions. Cheers. Steven Zhang 12:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nyyankee, HuskyHuskie - Agreed, this needs a lot of discussion from a lot of users involved in the dispute. Time isn't an issue here, but I would think more than a few months would a bit long. There's a fine line between giving time for discussion, and postponing implementing a proposal due to users doing a silent veto of a discussion. Things are slow right now, which may partly be due to the discussion at the Abortion talk page, but it seems that dispute to an extent is working itself out, so I see no need, at least for the time being, to interfere with that. Steven Zhang 00:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

@Kenatipo - You say the titles should be named pro-life and pro-choice, but then say you want the status quo to remain, which is actually Abortion-rights/Pro-life. Additionally, these titles are not that commonly used anymore, refer to comments by NickDupree below. I don't really see how "Support of legalized abortion" and "Opposition to legalized abortion" casts one in a more positive light to another. These are basic facts, and can't get any more factual than that. I disagree that people don't care about the names, otherwise it would not have been discussed ad nauseum. Steven Zhang 20:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

@Hans Adler - My thoughts exactly. Steven Zhang 22:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Notes by Nick Dupree

@All Parties - Stepping in, I would like to urge all sides to reconsider a rename to solve the dispute.

Please understand that we must comply with Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy, especially where article titles are concerned. NPOV means all sides must be given "a fair shake" in Misplaced Pages's coverage of disputed and controversial issues; the term "pro-life" is inherently POV because it implies that opponents are anti-life, and by the same token, the term "pro-choice" implies that opponents are anti-choice, and both political slants are against WP:NPOV. WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply here, as these terms have been avoided in the American press for years: the AP calls for the term “anti-abortion instead of pro-life and abortion rights instead of pro-abortion or pro-choice” in its Stylebook (see pg 9 of the AP Stylebook). U.S. media has moved past the editorial spin of both labels years ago, even the magazine Christianity Today uses the AP Stylebook-recommended "anti-abortion" term now (see GetReligion.org: Style choices on abortion talk. The New York Times uses "abortion opponents" and "advocates for abortion rights." Every day parlance outside the United States (i.e. UK, Canada, Australia) has already abandoned these polarizing labels. Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style may reflect that soon anyhow.

Both "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are inherently POV statements and should be avoided in the titles of encyclopedia entries. The old terminology, however, will get a fair shake, remaining as explanatory within the articles' content, and as redirect names under Misplaced Pages's WP:RNEUTRAL policy. Please consider renaming options. NickDupree (talk) 05:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

@Sven_Manguard and Chzz

You guys have both cited pro-life/pro-choice as the terms commonly used "in the media." A friendly reminder: They aren't anymore. For the last 15-20 years, the AP Stylebook calls for the term “anti-abortion instead of pro-life and abortion rights instead of pro-abortion or pro-choice” (see pg 9 of the AP Stylebook). The bulk of print media and much of the TV news outlets in the United States require AP Style. The New York Times has its own Stylebook that uses "abortion opponents" and "advocates for abortion rights." Each year pro-life/pro-choice are less and less the WP:COMMONNAME, as usage among English-speaking populations outside the United States (i.e. UK, Canada, Australia) has never feverishly clung to these polarizing labels and even the American press has avoided them for years: they are terms that reflect an entrenched POV and the derogatory labeling of the other side (the term "pro-life" implying that opponents are anti-life, and on the other side, the term "pro-choice" implying that opponents are anti-choice). Pro-life/pro-choice are prescriptive labels entrenched in (mostly American) ideological battles, and it is Misplaced Pages's role to be descriptive, not prescriptive. We should cling to WP:NPOV and WP:Worldwide here, and avoid political slants like pro-life/pro-choice. If we can move beyond inherently POV titling and consensus can coalesce around the less inflammatory terms Support for legalized abortion and Opposition of legalized abortion that describe the battle instead of engaging in it, all the better for Misplaced Pages's content, and Misplaced Pages's coverage of heated topics. NickDupree (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Nick, I have to dispute your assertion on which expression is more common regarding pro-life vs anti-abortion. In the past 11 and 1/2 years, according to a Google News search, "pro-life" is 3 times more frequent than "anti-abortion". See below. (As I've said, I have no interest in the name of the pro-choice article). --Kenatipo 04:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Administrative notes

Move to speedy close without prejudice

Discussion

Initial responses to Steve's proposal

The last move request is unfortunately going to be extremely difficult to close. I did push quite hard to argue no-consensus so we could come back to it later, but its quite clear that noone else really agrees with me. This way hopefully we can look at all the options, including moving the articles back to where they started, or merging them, or moving them to abortion-rights/anti-abortion. The reason I've asked for mediation is to help solve this dispute. I'm not particularly interested in which way its solved, but I feel this is a better approach than letting the current move discussion run on for two months and then get closed unsatisfactorily to quite a few people like the last ones have. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steven, that sounds great. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steven, Gordian Knot. Totally support your proposal. DeCausa (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I also like Steven's suggestion. The alternatives we've tried are weighty, imprecise, or both — these are clear. I'm sure some won't be happy with them, but I suggest they consider the amount of futile struggle this issue has caused and think hard before starting it up again. PhGustaf (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I can get behind this too. The names are virtually never used but they are most definitely neutral. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:08, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The names are not commonly used, and one still has the tinge of non-neutrality, but I'll sign up to end this never-ending dramafest. A solution could be much worse than this, and Steven is to be commended for thinking outside of where we all were.LedRush (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steve: Well, the clear improvement would be to keep things the way they are or use pro-life movement and pro-choice movement. These are well used, have established meanings, and are self identifiers. As with anti-abortion rights, there is generally a little negativity associated with an "anti" position (or an opposition). Sure, opposition to slavery and Hitler is all peaches and rainbows, but it is generally considered better to be for something than against it. For example, I would doubt that many people would prefer to be called the "opposition to fetal rights movement". However, your solution sucks less than the endless wikilawyering going on here but a few entrenched editors and their POV terms, so that's why I reluctantly agree.LedRush (talk) 03:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Steve's solution would be a good one, but it's not needed - consensus in 'two discussions with a wide range of editors was clear not to move pro-life, and there was no consensus to move pro-choice. A few editors are being disruptive by making a new move request every month because they don't like the results of the others. NYyankees51 (talk) 04:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The Zhang compromise suggestion of Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion is inspired. I think it should be implemented. Binksternet (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with NYY. The proposal to "move pro-life to anti-abortion" has failed at pro-life repeatedly. Now the strategy seems to be start a discussion to move pro-life in every venue except pro-life. In the last month or so there have been discussions at Abortion, Abortion-rights, user:Eraserhead, and now here. Yes, you read that correctly: they started a discussion at a user talk page, closed it as "Support", and them merged the article. If it wasn't so pathetic it would be hilarious. Dozens of editors have been wasting away with this issue all year instead of improving the pedia. Why can't the pro-abortioners just give it up??? 05:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lionelt (talk • contribs)

I am so sick of this canard that everyone who does not want "Pro-life" to be the title is pro-abortion. I for one, am passionately opposed to this holocaust, but I am also capable of thinking along neutral lines. You're right that too much time has been wasted on this, but at least part of the reason is that some of us believe that the pro-life and pro-choice titles violate WP:NPOV. HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as a totally non-involved editor, I have to say this seems an eminently sensible solution that Steve has proposed, and one which you guys should all go for. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 05:30, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

How would we go about adopting this solution anyway? I assume this would have to be presented as a normal move request and gain consensus like any other? –CWenger (^ • @) 05:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I presume Steven will tell us in due course, but everyone who was listed on the talk page has been informed, so I don't know if its necessary to do a move request if a consensus is found here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I certainly do not find Steve's idea "inspired". Hyperbole, to say the least. But I do consider it to be superior to the POV "pro-" titles, and it is certainly (because of its parallel nature) better than the status quo. I would be willing to support it. HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Binksternet. The Zhang compromise provides the reader (and editors) a clear understanding of what the articles are specifically about and a better indication of the topics addressed by each. -- ArtifexMayhem (talk) 15:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Nick that both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are unacceptable as article titles, for just the reasons he gave. But the phrases "abortion-rights movement" and "anti-abortion movement" aren't completely entrenched, so I find Steve's suggestion acceptable. However, "opposition to legalized abortion" does have the problem of not being entirely accurate: I rather doubt that opponents would find abortion acceptable as long as it was technically illegal. "Opposition to abortion" would be better IMO. As for people complaining that the word "opposition" paints them in a bad light, come on. Death-penalty opponents don't go around demanding that they be called "pro-life". "Opposition movement" is not a negative term. — kwami (talk) 21:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Good point on the opposition title. I also agree that "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are inappropriate; I would never let these run in my publication. They are only appropriate in quotes... if that quote is absolutely necessary. I tend to have traditionalist leanings -- I'm willing to change as appropriate -- but I do like what the Associated Press has laid forth with "anti-abortion" and "abortion rights." I suppose I understand the sentiment that "anti-abortion" portrays that movement in a negative light... but I really don't think there is a better solution, and I think it's an accurate description. Although if we do try to go with something longer like Zhang suggested, we need to decide how we're going to refer to the movements within copy because his titles would become very cumbersome in prose.--Jp07 (talk) 21:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Taking this from the lead of Roe v. Wade: "Roe v. Wade reshaped national politics, dividing much of the nation into pro-choice and pro-life camps, while activating grassroots movements on both sides." you could change it to "Roe v. Wade reshaped national politics, dividing much of the nation into groups supporting and opposing legalised abortion, while activating grassroots movements on both sides.", which actually seems better. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I meant paraphrase, not change, if the quote is not essential. I don't think it's questionable to change vocabulary in a paraphrase... because otherwise you have a quote. Meaning needs to be sustained; vocabulary does not necessarily need to be maintained unless it is within a direct quote. I have not extensively studied abortion, but I do believe that the nation was much less polarized on this topic during the time of that trial; since that time, the rhetoric has festered to the point that people can't even discuss it without bickering. Now we are overly sensitive on this topic, and people are more careful about how they discuss it.--Jp07 (talk) 22:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, the debate, which is being covered in the articles, is about whether or not to legalize abortion. It's not about whether or not abortions are acceptable in legal system which allows it. Also, if you are that sensitive to language, you must be able to see that "opposition to abortion" isn't a neutral term, as it kinda implies that the other side is "for abortions", which I very much doubt is how they would characterize themselves.TheFreeloader (talk) 21:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Statement: It's not about whether or not abortions are acceptable in legal system which allows it. Is not true, since there are all sorts of strategies used to discourage women from having abortions from protesting abortion clinics to helping women through their pregnancies and finding adoptive parents. CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME vs. WP:POVTITLE

I don't think ignoring WP:COMMONNAME is a good solution at all. WP:POVTITLE clearly states that common name overrides concerns about neutrality. I don't think we as editors have any right to be the judge over whether or not Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are appropriate names for these movements. Reliable sources have already made that choice for us. The main objective of Misplaced Pages should be to describe things the way they are described by reliable sources, not to make normative judgments about how things should be described.TheFreeloader (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

What have reliable sources chosen? To my eyes reliable sources use both terms - the numbers using pro-life certainly isn't significantly higher enough to definitely require using that if you feel anti-abortion is more neutral - thus you will have an endless discussion - and thus why Steven's compromise is required. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, how about just looking at Google books hits which shows about a four or five to one ratio in favor of pro life. Google news archives shows about the same ratio. To me that looks like pro life is pretty clearly the common name.TheFreeloader (talk) 08:35, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

In my experience the ratio usually drops quite a lot when you put quotes around both statements, but fundamentally it doesn't really matter, what counts is that the ratio is small enough that a significant number of people argue the point that anti-abortion is a better title on the ground of supposed neutrality and that its usage isn't that much less. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steve But the problem is that the compromise you have proposed does not take WP:UCN into concern, which is my main concern. To me this is a discussion of common name versus neutrality, and you have chosen to completely side with neutrality. That to me isn't much of a compromise. Although I think compromises are rarely to be found in general in naming debates, as WP:TITLECHANGES also points out.TheFreeloader (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steven I guess that if your proposal is the only way to get back to parallel titles, then that is probably more important than using common names for now.TheFreeloader (talk) 11:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

• Speaking for everyone, and I think that I can, the only issue here is Pro-life. Noone cares what the pro-abortion article is called. Pro-abortion, pro-choice, abortion rights. Who cares? No one cares. That article was moved, renamed, merged, and 2 maybe 3 people objected. But try to move Po-life and as Bette said "It's gonna be a bumpy night." All year Pro-life has been the target of intense move efforts and the only inroad was to add "movement." Proponents of moving Pro-life have invented all manner of schemes to eradicate it, this latest one included. We need to call a spade a spade. This discussion really is about excising a term highly objectionable to Pro-abortionists: "pro-life." Yea. I said it. This is a scheme to get rid of pro-life, part of a larger war of attrition, of ad nauseaum discussion. Well, it aint going down like dat.– Lionel 08:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for everyone, and I think that I can. Boy, I sure hope that's meant to be facetious, because if it's not it's offensive. HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I think Pro-life is just a name for one particular group. It's not an umbrella term for all anti-abortion groups. In order to cover the entire movement, you have to have an umbrella name for it, and not just a (possibly) US-centric one. No reason at all why "Pro-Life" can't have its own headed section, giving the history etc. of that one group, within the general 'Against legalising abortion' article. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

If anything, pro-life is the umbrella group and "anti-abortion" would be under it. But really, trying to distinguish the two is pretty pointless.LedRush (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Huh? There are many anti-abortionists in the world who don't use the term "pro-life" (and similarly for "pro-choice") - these are labels that some people (mainly in the US, I think) have adopted for themselves.--Kotniski (talk) 17:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Lionel: Noone cares what the pro-abortion article is called. Pro-abortion, pro-choice, abortion rights. Who cares? No one cares. Sorry to disagree with you, Lionel, but I care. I despise the deceptive name "pro-choice". It's one thing to be vague, like "pro-life" is, but "pro-choice" is patently offensive because it frames the discussion on the ability to kill another person in terms of the most American principle of all: Freedom. They make it sound like they're a "pro-freedom" group when they are actually "pro-murder". Now mind you, I realize that a substantial number of them do not actually believe that it is murder that they support. But that's not the point--they chose the term "pro-choice" because it sounds eminently American. No one cares? Bullshit. HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the articles should be named Pro-life movement and Pro-choice movement, per TheFreeloader, as COMMONNAME and POVTITLE apply. Don't see the need to make them any more "parallel" than that. Don't care for Steven Zhang's proposal because "supporting something legal" has positive connotations and "opposing something legal" has negative connotations. Also understand Lionel when he says no-one cares what the "Pro-choice" article is called (pace HuskyHuskie). (I know I don't care what they call themselves!) So, my vote is STATUS QUO, and please lock the damn current names in place for 1 year so we don't have to keep going through this nonsense every two or three months. --Kenatipo 20:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Firstly you have the fundamental problem that the Status Quo is to keep Pro life at Pro life and the pro-choice is at abortion-rights movement.

Secondly if you read TheFreeloader's last comment he's said he accepts these titles as a way of returning the articles to parallel titles. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me try again. The optimal naming is Pro-life movement and Pro-choice movement for reasons given. Second best is the status quo. Third best is Pro-life movement and whatever the pro-choicers want to call themselves. Parallel naming is important? We have parallel naming in the optimal scenario. You say prolife and prochoice don't work. But, since prolifers are happy to be so described and since we don't care what the prochoicers call themselves, the dissatisfaction must be coming from the prochoice side because they don't like the term "Pro-Life". And, I thought IDONTLIKEIT was a bad reason around here for changing things! --Kenatipo 23:50, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I will say it again (albeit with less vehemence, this time): You err, Kenatipo, just as did Lionel, in speaking that "we" don't care what the pro-choicers call themselves. I have been pro-life since before Roe v. Wade, and I don't care what we are called (be it pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever). I only care that the pro-abortionists are not called given the false appellation of "pro-choice". Furthermore, I have never in my life met another pro-lifer who objected to being called "anti-abortion". I'm sure that some of the organizational heads don't prefer it, but the man on the street has no problem with being called "anti-abortion". HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Husky, telling another group what they should call themselves is urinating into the wind. When I hear the phrase "pro-choice", I always say to myself "some choice for the baby"! Of course that term is a lie. In this venue, though, it's better just to defend "Pro-life movement" and not let them re-name us. --Kenatipo 15:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Why? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Pro-life is 3 times more frequent than anti-abortion in a Google News search starting in 2000. See details below CarolMoore's comment following. --Kenatipo 05:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Yea, and the reason for that is because Google News starts picking up feeds from online outlets like "Christian Today", "Catholic Culture" and "LifeNews.com". As has been proved before, news sites like the NYT, Washington Post, CNN, Reuters, NPR, and the AP use the term "anti-abortion" far more frequently than "pro-life", and in fact only use "pro-life" when quoting. Dave Dial (talk) 05:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Anti-abortion/abortion-rights more frequently used in News searches

I agree with the common name protocol. I'd like to point out that in news searches (which are far more neutral than web or book searches which include a lot of outright propaganda) "anti-abortion" (177,000) is more frequently used than "pro-life" (167,000). (Abortion rights is 372,000 vs. Pro-choice 116,000. Note also there is a problem with the fact that the intro to Pro-life movement doesn't specify it is not entirely right to life - at least on the death penalty issue. That's mentioned way down in the article. Has anyone done only this specific search before in this discussion?? CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Pro-life 3 times more frequent than Anti-abortion per Google News searches

Hi, Carol. I opened the links you created and found something interesting: when I confine the Google news search to the last 11 and a half years, 2000 - 2011, I get 99,200 hits for "pro-life" and 32,600 hits for "anti-abortion". What am I doing wrong? (Something funny is going on, though. If I keep clicking on the Go button I can make the numbers change. I guess I just don't trust Google!) If you look at the blue bar graphs for your numbers for these two terms, you can see that "pro-life" has a lot more hits than "anti-abortion" in the last 11 and a half years. --Kenatipo 04:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Yea, and the reason for that is because Google News starts picking up feeds from online outlets like "Christian Today", "Catholic Culture" and "LifeNews.com", after 2003 or so. As has been proved before, news sites like the NYT, Washington Post, CNN, Reuters, NPR, and the AP use the term "anti-abortion" far more frequently than "pro-life", and in fact only use "pro-life" when quoting. Dave Dial (talk) 05:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Was consensus ever achieved?

Another problem - if you're against legalizing abortion, you're probably against abortion in general, legal or not, so it would have to be "opposition to abortion". The best solution is to keep everything at pro-life and pro-choice. Anything else would be a victory for the disruptive minority who has been keeping this fight going despite clear consensus. NYyankees51 (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

This "clear consensus" isn't clear to me - if there's one thing we don't seem to have it's consensus, and therefore it's perfectly in order to keep the "fight" (i.e. discussion) going until we do.--Kotniski (talk) 17:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

There is no clear consensus, which is why we are here. There is no "disruptive minority fighting to keep this going", just the majority who wish to maintain a neutral tone on Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I meant that consensus was clear against every proposal, meaning what was the status quo (pro-life/pro-choice) should remain. A move requires clear consensus to move. Pro-life had clear consensus to keep, and pro-choice had no clear consensus, meaning it should have stayed pro-choice. Those who don't like the consensus on pro-life and the lack thereof on pro-choice are going to keep proposing moves until they get their preference. Changing anything would be a victory for them, the disruptive. NYyankees51 (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Firstly pro-life wasn't closed with a "clear consensus to keep" it was closed as "no consensus". The two are fundamentally different - the former implies there weren't any substantial support arguments at all for the move, which was clearly false. Secondly regardless of the merits of the close pro-choice was closed as a move request. As far as that is concerned what is done is done, and trying to complain about it now is counter-productive to the process of moving forward from where we are now. Fundamentally as shown in the previous move request about half the community think pro-life/pro-choice are the better names and half think that anti-abortion/abortion rights are the better names. The fair and sensible way forward is to split the difference and go for something like Steven has proposed here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:26, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

When there is no consensus for a change the status quo should remain. NYyankees51 (talk) 23:17, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It appears to me that what is being called "consensus" really refers to the "status quo" which came into existence because there was a lack of a consensus. If true consensus was ever achieved, can anyone point me to it? I realize I may be mistaken (I haven't been around this discussion near as long as many of you). HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Consensus was clear here to keep pro-life; note that this was the largest discussion of all of them. There was no consensus at pro-choice here, but it was closed anyway with a questionable-at-best rationale. NYyankees51 (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Your first link shows a large discussion that went into tangents (as usual) but the arguments for each side were just as strong as each other. There was no consensus at that discussion. It was never closed as showing consensus. Binksternet (talk) 01:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

@NYYif you're against legalizing abortion, you're probably against abortion in general, legal or not, so it would have to be opposition to abortion. That's a good observation and point of logic, Yankee, but I don't agree with your next conclusion about this rendering "pro-life" and "pro-choice" the proper titles. Don't see the connection at all. HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Largely arbitrary break

That's a very good suggestion Steven Zhang, and I agree with several other editors here that the naming you propose is acceptable. On another note, I would just like to say that most of the comments on this page are very helpful and in the spirit of mediation. A sure way to avoid this process from devolving into another ideological fight is to not respond, or ignore, to obvious attempts to bait users into conflicts. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 18:25, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

A few points:

1. Mediation can't just start from the point of "well, moving 'pro-life movement' to 'anti-abortion movement' is out of the question." The move discussion which supposedly implemented this rock-solid consensus to keep "pro-life" where it is was flawed in many ways, particularly compared to the "pro-choice" move. We've got to look at the discussions that got us here and address the long-standing problems with those - namely, as Andrew C has pointed out, the fact that the admin who closed one discussion was involved while the other was not, and that the different admins applied a different standard to the closes which, if the same standard had been applied to both, would have resulted in a status-quo other than the one we have now.
2. Keeping the status-quo for lack of a consensus for either of the other options is an extremely poor idea. There's a strong consensus that the titles should be parallel; there was no consensus to keep the status-quo in a discussion where it was presented as an option alongside several other options. The status-quo enjoys less support than almost any other option, and particularly because of the sketchy way we got here, keeping it is a poor idea.
3. It would be lovely if other users would stop the smokescreen that claims it's about users' political opinions rather than the best way to title the articles. Perhaps you view Misplaced Pages as a tool for promoting your own political views, but most of us do not.

--Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

@ 1) and 2) Fundamentally if you have different people making the decision they are going to come to different conclusions. Additionally Anthony hadn't been involved in the discussion until the original move was carried out, so possibly it wasn't a perfect move, but ultimately that's life. You probably can legitimately argue that the escalation process for moves is broken, but frankly I think the move processes are in significantly better shape than some other admin processes and solving that issue is significantly outside the scope of the case. @ 3) Fair point, but there is still an issue that we cannot settle on appropriate titles. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with a number of editors above that Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion are good article titles and the best way forward yet proposed. They should be adopted, and the current article content and page histories moved to them.

I'd also like to disagree with the main argument above that they are not common. Just the opposite. I think that they are by far the most common names for the topics they describe.

There's a subtle topic shift whatever the name. Pro-life movement for example commonly means those who choose to be known as "pro-life" while Anti-abortion movement means those identified by promoters of liberal abortion laws as their opposition. The difference is subtle but significant, and the content if we get it right should reflect this focus (it probably won't ever do so accurately with any of the previously proposed titles but it should). Support for legalized abortion is a different focus again. I particularly note the term legalized not liberal, which is a very significant difference and a very good one. It covers the same material exactly but provides a far better focus.

Similarly for the other article.

When I say material I mean the relevant verifiable facts. In the case of these articles and the various proposed names, these facts are the same whichever name is chosen. Focus is reflected in the way this material is presented. Both influence the text and any other content. Andrewa (talk) 22:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Impact of current impasse

I found it interesting, in making all the posts to the editors with a possible interest, that the past year has seen most of the energies spent on these articles directed, not toward the improvement of the articles themselves, but rather, debating the names. Since July 1, 2010, there have been a total of 499 edits on these these two articles, but an incredible 1351 edits on their talk pages. And well over half of that--perhaps as much as 80-90% of it, has been spent on the arguments over the name. Whatever arguments we may have for our preferred choice, this issue is not helping improve the encyclopedia, and we need to seriously consider ending the fight (for it is that, I'm afraid) here and now. HuskyHuskie (talk) 01:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Status check on Steve's proposal

It's not looking like this mediation is doing any good. I think the only solution is to start from scratch with a centralized discussion and notify everyone who was involved with the regular two, have a big discussion, and see if we can find any sort of consensus. This mediation involves only a fraction of the users who were originally involved. NYyankees51 (talk) 18:18, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I think good discussion is occurring here, and that this mediation can be conclusive. There's no need to start yet another process when this one can be successful. Nothing is stopping more folks from discussing. Binksternet (talk) 18:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the discussion here has been highly productive. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I do think that if people are unhappy with Steven's suggestion that they should suggest something of their own beyond doing a straight move of the articles to pro-life/pro-choice. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Whoa! I think it's WAY premature to write this off. Part of the problem is that we need much more participation, and that takes time. The usual procedures for determining consensus in 5 or 7 days is completely bogus here. I would personally reject calling this consensus right now if the "vote" was 14-2 in favor, because we need to have a lot of people chiming in on this. I'd say we should leave this proposal open for a minimum of 30 days, and I'd really recommend three months. HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with that. I was under the impression that this wouldn't last long. NYyankees51 (talk) 00:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I think 30 days sounds good. That's the standard RfC length. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

New responses following July 4 talk page notifications

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Discussion Guidelines This is obviously a discussion, so feel free to discuss the proposals. Try to keep comments focused and on topic. Remember that this is not a vote, and that the aim here is to come to a consensus on the best way to move forward. Keep discussions civilised. Personal attacks and extremely uncivil conduct may be refactored in the interests of keeping discussions calm and focused. This discussion will be closed on August 4, 2011. At that time, an independent editor will analyse the discussion and decide whether there is a consensus in the discussion, and what that consensus is. Thank you. Steven Zhang 07:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• The proposal to move to Support for / Opposition to legalized abortion seems fine to me. This is not primarily a US topic, so the US-only POV terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are out. I don't think there are international common names for these movements, so that leaves us with descriptive titles. These two seem perfectly fine. There is a small amount of ambiguity here. (Support for / opposition to making or keeping abortion legal, or for / to actually following the law where it is legal?) Both interpretations are notable aspects of the topic, so this ambiguity is a good thing. Hans Adler 22:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• Since I wasn't part of the initial discussion (and have no idea how I got on the mass mailing) I'm just going to say that I'm in favor of using Pro-life and Pro-choice, because those are the names the movements have adopted, the names the media have adopted, and the names that have become standard colloquialism. I think it's the best option in light of those facts. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:38, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Sven, for joining us. After you posted your comments, I placed the guideline for this discussion above. I hope that you can give us some more input. HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support keeping the current names, and adding as many redirects for other names as seems prudent. Groups are generally allowed to choose their own names - political, religious and economic. In the case at hand, such terms are now commonplace in the US - just like "Democrat" and "Republican" and no one would deem those names to be so far outdated that they should be changed to "left of center US party" and "right of center US party", I trust. In addition, the terms "anti-abortion" and "abortion rights" are, if anything, more simplistic that the other terms <g>. Most people in either camp see exceptions to their own absolute positions implied by such terms. Therefore, the least damage is done by retaining the s\current titles. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Collect, I'm slightly confused. I thought the preferred names of the two sides were "pro-life" and "pro-choice". But the "current" names are "pro-life" and "abortion rights". Which do you prefer? HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

When I first commented before the new redirect, the article name as "Pro-Choice" - I think "abortion rights movement" is a weaker title. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I prefer the "anti-abortion" and "abortion rights" titles because pro-life and pro-choice cover many other topics, such as euthanasia, poitics, feminism etc. I strongly oppose the "pro-life movement" title because so-called "Pro-lifers" are hypocritical and contradictory because their stance encourages deadly pregnancies and deadly (backdoor) amateur abortions. But i don't mind the new proposal of "Support/oppose for legalized abortion" Pass a Method talk 23:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

You'll need a better argument than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. NYyankees51 (talk) 03:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Two points: (1) I dispute that "pro-life" is a US-only term: cf. the British Life charity, which uses it: . (2) The "Pro-life movement" is concerned with euthanasia and other matters of medical ethics as well as abortion, and the article and its title should not be limited to abortion. Best wishes. -- Chonak (talk) 23:55, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with Hans Adler above. In light of lack of a universal common name, Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion seem like good, neutral titles that accurately describe the content. I might suggest removing the word "legalized" from these titles, since it seems that these viewpoints are for or against abortion itself, and they just want the law to enforce their opinion. Do not title the articles pro-life and pro-choice, since that implies that pro-life supporters are anti-choice and pro-choice supporters are anti-life; this is certainly not NPOV, even though those are the most common names for the viewpoints in the United States. I do not know whether or not they are common elsewhere. If they are the most common names internationally, then WP:COMMONNAME would have the articles named that. However, this would cause a dilemma of COMMONNAME vs. NPOV. One could also argue that it is a POV that pro-life and pro-choice are POV.

Here it is in short if that was too long: If the terms pro-life and pro-choice are the most common internationally and consensus determines that these don't violate NPOV, then call the articles that. Otherwise, call the articles Support for abortion and Opposition to abortion. Even if it isn't chosen, pro-life and pro-choice should be redirects to the respective articles, and the articles should be move-protected to enforce whatever consensus arises from this. --Nat682 (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• • I have seen this particular take from another editor up the thread. So let me take your reasons for being against "pro-choice" and "pro-life" and apply them to the modified proposals you are making here. Naming the articles "opposition to abortion" and "support for abortion", without the "legalized" caveat has the same problems. There are many people who are for legalized abortions being available, but against abortions in general. So they definitely would not consider themselves in a article labeled "support for abortion" in any way. In fact, the great majority of people would not fall into that title. Dave Dial (talk) 00:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Since this is the way that the 'pro-life' movement characterises itself, I don't see why there is even a discussion. Certainly those on the opposite side of the issue should be free to call themselves 'pro-choice', or whatever name they wish to use, without Misplaced Pages editors upbraiding them for their choice? I wasn't aware that this was our job. I would further suggest that the articles should remain separate, with re-directs added for cross-referencing, as this is such a volatile topic, and POV would be difficult to avoid with strong advocates of both sides editing the combined article(with a better chance of maintaining civility between editors).Lyricmac (talk) 00:09, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • But these terms are mainly used in the United States, and not universally used elsewhere. It seems that anti-abortion/abortion-rights has also been used quite a bit, rendering common name hard to use, as both names are quite commonly used. Hence why I've suggested a compromise. Steven Zhang 00:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm can't accept the use of "legalized". The problem I see there is that from the days of the Comstock Law and the original bull of papal infallibility, there was a highly injurious and largely successful effort to suppress awareness of the widespread use of birth control and abortion throughout previous millennia of history - an effort so pervasive that some of the greatest all-around medical authors like Dioscorides and Celsus are still little known in the Western world, because any book containing even a passing mention of how to do an abortion was suppressed. Therefore, this title, "legalized" abortion, strikes a nerve, because it seems to exude a POV that abortion was something illegal and unknown which only recently has come to have an air of legitimacy. I would be happy with pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-choice, pro-abortion, etc. in favor to these terms. However, if the title said "legal abortion", I wouldn't mind it so much. Wnt (talk) 00:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Here after being notified. May I suggest a tweak? Support for the legalization of abortion and opposition to the legalization of abortion. This removes any nuance that those supporting the legalization of abortion necessarily support people actually having abortions. From a British perspective, this is important, as the dominant argument has not typically been the right to choose but the safety of the mother and the minimisation of harm. In general I think moving away from what are very much America-centric terms (where it has been a particularly divisive issue) is a good idea.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I stumbled upon this notification on someone else's talk page, and I support the proposal to move both articles to neutral titles. Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion seem as non-POV as you can get with such an inflammatory issue, and while I believe that no proposal will satisfy everyone, this one has the air of being the most fair to all involved. I would also support any minor tweaks to the above titles if they reflected consensus.-RunningOnBrains 00:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support the proposal to move to Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion, and don't think that it contravenes the principle of using common names. See my post above. I would not object to minor tweaks to the general idea, just so long as they don't distract us and prevent it actually happening. Andrewa (talk) 00:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Seems like a reasonable way to resolve the impasse.  – OhioStandard (talk) 01:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support the proposed change, but agree with User:VsevolodKrolikov that "Support for the legalization of abortion" and "Opposition to the legalization of abortion" is better wording. The terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are definitely POV, are not descriptive, and to me identify those who associate themselves with movements by those names in the U.S. Those terms fail to adequately cover the situation international nor describe the privately held feelings of individuals in the U.S. who are not vocal on this issue. Bdentremont (talk) 01:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I mildly support the proposal. Wasbeer 01:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support the mediator's version of support for/opposition to legalized abortion. I do not think Wnt's suggestion of changing it to "legal abortion" is good because an opposition to legal abortion could include the unlikely support for illegal abortion. Binksternet (talk) 02:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • If it's that unlikely, isn't it a bit bean-stuffing to worry about it? —chaos5023 (talk) 02:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Getting out from under the highly politicized terms is a positive, and the argument against US-centricity is reasonably compelling, so I mostly support this proposal. However, I would like to see the word "legal" rather than "legalized", i.e. "Support for legal abortion" and "Opposition to legal abortion". "Legalized" addresses process rather than state, implies that the natural state of affairs is for abortion to be illegal, and frames the debate in terms which are nonsensical in any jurisdiction where abortion has never been illegal. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• If this is the only way out of the deadlock, then I Support it, but I have to say those two titles sounded really clunky when I first read them. But if all of the more common titles redirect there, I could get used to it. By the way, I disagree with whoever suggested "Support for the legalization of abortion" and "Opposition to the legalization of abortion", because abortion is already legal in most of the industrialized world. And I oppose the use of any American terminology for the titles ("pro-life" and "pro-choice"), per WP:WORLDWIDE. -- Softlavender (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ambivalent response At the very least, I would like to say that any proposed solution should adhere to WP:SLASH (e.g. no pro-life/right-to-life/anti-abortion movement.) As far as I'm aware, the wings in this debate generally refer to themselves as "pro-life" and "pro-choice", so WP:COMMON would dictate that these names be used. "Right to life" and "abortion rights" are less common names that still have some currency, but as best as I can tell, the current names are as good as you're going to get. Regarding folding them into the larger article on abortion debate, that seems like a disservice as there are categories named after either side and a hierarchy of information about those movements--there is enough material on either to warrant a separate article, so combining them does not solve the problem. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:18, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem is twofold with the current names. First of all, they are terms within the American political discourse, rather than a worldwide one ("Pro-choice" basically comes out of the US supreme court decision of Roe vs Wade). Secondly, there are many on each wing within that discourse that find the other wing's choice of name deeply problematic, if not offensive.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:42, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support for "Support for / opposition to (legalizing / legalised / legal) abortion". I am completely uninvolved in the abortion debate itself, and take no side on the issue here, so am really, genuinely a 'neutral' editor. That choice gives us parallel titles without any bias towards any particular country, any particular political stance, or any ambiguity. It's just plain sensible. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 03:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I cannot answer this question as it's phrased, because I don't care what the titles are as long as they're parallel; my "opponents," such as they are, are those who seek to keep a propaganda title for one article and a neutral title for the other. I'm happy with "pro-life"/"pro-choice" (with or without "movement"), "abortion rights movement"/"anti-abortion movement," "support for/opposition to legalized abortion," whatever. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support mediator's proposal (primarily per Misplaced Pages:WORLDWIDE) with one qualification: change "legalized" to "legal" (per Chaos5023's comment above). To date, I have been 100% uninvolved with any articles connected with the topic of abortion. I'm jumping in here primarily because I think it's an interesting and worthwhile application of IAR (even if it probably could be done without IAR). Rivertorch (talk) 05:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• NO REAL OBJECTION. However, I note that a number of months ago, in the Talk:Abortion Debate page, I suggested some titles that were immediately dissed as being "too wordy". One of them was also somewhat POV-oriented, but an alternative was quickly offered to replace it. The two (wordy) suggested titles were "Pro Abortion Rights" and "Pro Fetal Rights". The titles proposed on this mediation page are wordier still! That doesn't bother me, but I suppose it would bother anyone who objected to the wordi-ness of the proposed titles I've copied to this paragraph. V (talk) 05:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose change. (Previously uninvolved; stumbled in here). Per Sven Manguard; ie the widely adopted name from many media sources is fine. It seems to me that there is no consensus for a change, so the status quo should remain. Add a nice clear note on top of the talk pointing to this discussion (which will hopefully show consensus), and thus try to side-step any further debates that don't add anything new to the table. And remember that an article name is just a name (yeah; Gdańsk, etc, I know, but...) and we have redirects - so I hope this enormous time/effort spent debating could be diverted to improving the article. (If there's large support for the change - that's fine too. I mostly just hope consensus can be established here, without too much further pointless repetitive verbiage). People who DO vehemently support changing it...I ask you one, simple question: would you really not know what the phrase "Pro-life movement" refers to? So...can't we move along? After all, a rose by any other name is still full of pricks.  Chzz  ►  05:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC) P.S. Kudos to Steven Zhang for coming up with a neat attempt at a compromise though; I don't want to belittle that - just, I don't agree with it.  Chzz  ►  05:43, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • In the status quo, one POV is given its US-politics propaganda name while the other is saddled with a semi-hostile descriptive term. Is this not a blatant polemicization of Misplaced Pages? How can we possibly allow that to stand? —chaos5023 (talk) 12:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose change--Keep current names. Current names are used for self-identification, and are also used by reliable sources. Readers coming to Misplaced Pages will seach for "pro-life." Steven's effort is a solution in search of a problem. The objection to "pro-life" is ideological on behalf of pro-abortion people.– Lionel 05:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're familiar with the debate. For example, you use the term "pro-abortion", which a lot of people find objectionable. (If you are familiar with the debate, then you're just ignoring NPOV). Most of the common names used have been employed as rhetoric, not as a neutral description. Who isn't for choice and for life? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, Lionel, I can't know for certain whether or not you've read my earlier replies to that line of thinking (one example). But you need to know, not all people opposing "pro-life" are pro-abortion. I am a hardcore anti-abortionist (by which I mean, I think it's still unacceptable to get an abortion with the rape and incest excuse), and yet I think that "pro-life" violates WP:NPOV. I do acknowledge that honest people can disagree about this matter, but what honest people cannot disagree about is that there are some pro-lifers who disagree with your position. Frankly, I'm getting really, really tired of hearing this notion that everyone who opposes you has a pro-abortion agenda. Furthermore, your line about this being a solution in search of a problem is belied not only by the large participation on this page, but also by the ceaseless bickering on the talk pages. HuskyHuskie (talk) 06:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

HuskyHuskie's argument about pro-choice being bad because it implies abortion is about freedom is extremely strong. Under any reasonable standards if abortion is just about choice then it should be legal right?

Personally I am pro legalised abortion, but I feel extremely uncomfortable about abortions only used to select a babies gender (as happens regularly in Asia). I also believe that abortion should be legal because in my view it is better than the alternatives - i.e. unwanted babies or babies the mother isn't capable of looking after being born, or people being forced into dangerous backstreet abortions.

By making it an issue of freedom then it makes it very all-or-nothing, and pro-choice doesn't include my view because I don't feel its an acceptable choice with regards to gender and other such trivialities; in contrast I do believe it should be legal for socio-economic reasons, rape, maternal life, health, mental health, fetal defects, and/or socioeconomic factors, so you can't really claim I'm pro-life. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:55, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

As Roscelese said, at the very minimum we need equivalent titles, not for one POV to be represented using its self-chosen propaganda name (and certainly "pro-choice" is as propagandist as "pro-life") and the other with semi-hostile descriptive terminology. The status quo permits the use of Misplaced Pages as a polemic and that's intolerable. The problem with going back to "pro-life" and "pro-choice", though, is the excellent point made above about those being US-local terms and seriously failing WP:WORLDWIDE. Your concern about readers arriving to look for the term "pro-life" is trivially addressed using a redirect. —chaos5023 (talk) 12:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I came here expecting to disagree with a new naming convention, I don't see why we should prescribe, rather than describe. We already do that too much elsewhere in wikipedia e.g. video gaming consoles generation. However, having read the proposal, and with my recollection of the heated debate over POV titles, I have to say that the descriptive, non-POV titles are not only correct and reasonable, but so bloody obvious that I wish I'd though of them. I whole-heartedly agree with the suggestion. Worm · (talk) 08:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support the proposed move to descriptive neutral titles. WP:NPOV has to trump WP:COMMONNAME, especially as in this case the "common" names aren't really that common worldwide, or indeed amongst the members of the opposing group. "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are very value laden terms and should be avoided IMHO. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• support the proposed move to descriptive neutral titles. WP:NPOV has to trump WP:COMMONNAME, moreover is it NPOV given that there is no agreement on when life beings (and no guarantee that any pregnancy will run to full term. As such they are anti-abortion. As to pro-Choice, sorry but at least two parties in any abortion debate have no choice, so they are pro-abortion.Slatersteven (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • (to both of the above) WP:POVTITLE clearly states that WP:COMMONNAME trumps NPOV concerns. Misplaced Pages should describe things as reliable source describe them. We should not insert our own opinion about how we think things should be described.TheFreeloader (talk) 16:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
    • To TheFreeloader: Read POVTITLE more carefully - you'll see it does not apply here. POVTITLE operates when "a significant majority of English-language reliable sources all refer to the topic or subject of an article by a given name" That clearly does not apply to Pro-Life. It's not a significant majority; it competes with "anti-abortion", and probably loses out to it. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:36, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Still, I think the principle that POVTITLE builds on still works here. True neutrality is to not make any judgments over what reliable sources choose to call a subject, but rather just relay it faithfully.TheFreeloader (talk) 10:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

• The participants here are welcome to agree to whatever works, just don't make the mistake in thinking that this is going to permanently resolve anything (which is what this appears to be trying to do). It looks as though this mediation has an outside shot at allowing this particular coterie of editors to resolve their differences, but that's the extent of it's reach. Mediation can't possibly resolve national and international hot button political issues such as this to the satisfaction of every possible editor. Regardless of the outcome here, either or both pages can and will be subject to changes in their article titles at a later date. All of that being said, I personally believe that the article titles should be "pro-life" and "pro-choice", per WP:COMMONNAME, and for the same reasons that Sven outlined above. Concerns about neutrality are largely misplaced, for the reasons outlined at Misplaced Pages:Article titles. I encourage everyone involved here to become well acquainted with the article titles policy, since that is what predominantly governs these issues.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 12:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Politely oppose - I give HuskyHuskie and Steven Zhang props. The problem I see is that these new names are no more (and no less) POV than the current titles. I think we need to realize that in this debate there will be no neutral names. I think the current names are fine. I'm not sure that I buy the argument of "Pro-life" being NPOV because it forces the implication that anyone in opposition is "pro-death" ... there is an "Animal rights movement" which I generally oppose, but that doesn't mean that I am against rights for animals, and I don't think that most people imply that. I wouldn't feel offense or that it was non-neutral to call one side of this argument "Pro-choice" (even though there might exist in some peoples' minds the idea that people in opposition were somehow "anti-freedom to make choices"). I appreciate the mediation ... and I hate to sound unappreciative, but I am not sure there is a solution to the problem of creating titles that are neutral enough to either side of this debate. LonelyBeacon (talk) 15:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Weak support. My first choice would been to call them either "pro-life" and "pro-choice" or "abortion rights" and "anti-abortion", whichever would turn out to be the most common. But seeing as people, coming here with an axe to grind, are blocking getting an consensus based on Misplaced Pages policy(WP:COMMONNAME), I guess we will have to ignore that rule for now, and just give the articles descriptive names, just to somehow get back to parallel titles, which after all is the most important concern here.TheFreeloader (talk) 16:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose -- COMMONNAME applies here. No consensus means the status quo reigns. If you can't live without "parallelism", then change it back to "Pro-choice movement". I agree with Lionel that the agitation here is coming from the pro-choice side because they don't like the term "Pro-life". I'm disturbed to see that proposer Steven Chang doesn't see the positive connotation of one term and the negative connotation of the other, but I'm sure all of us have our blind spots. Also concerning is Nick Dupree's approval of the "NPOV" terms used by the US media. Nick, those folks, including the Associated Press, are not objective; they are liberal players promoting a liberal agenda that approves of abortion on demand. News organizations in the US are overwhelmingly staffed by liberal Democrats and it's embarrassingly evident in the way they promote their agenda, even in news articles and what they decide is news. (No conspiracy there, just a shared mindset). In conclusion, leave the names as they are and lock them down for a year. --Kenatipo 16:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • How are you going to get a consensus to move Abortion rights movement back? I doubt you can even get 51%, and to do such a move request with a straw poll would require some sort of mediation. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Like I said, I don't care what the abortion "rights" people call themselves. --Kenatipo 20:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Its also worth pointing out that if this mediation closes as "no consensus" I am going to escalate it. Having the issues left around essentially unresolved doesn't do anyone any good and while it might quieten the page down for a time someone will bring it up again sooner or later given the consensus would be so weak and we'll get to have this fun all over again.
• If this closes positively in any direction there is a much stronger case against anyone who brings it up again in the future.
• Additionally if it goes to further mediation there is always a risk that they choose to do a straw poll and then anti-abortion/abortion-rights get picked (or vice versa), or we just waste a bunch more time and land up with a solution exactly like the one proposed here.
• With regards to Ohm's law pointing out that it will be bought up again, if this mediation returns a positive result I'm sure it will be easy to persuade Arbcom to issue a statement on the matter supporting the cabal position if it gets bought up again in the future. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

  Just peaking back in here to see what's been said since my earlier reply. If that's representative of how everyone feels (and, from skimming over the rest of the discussion above it seems that it is), then quit wasting time and go try to get arbcom to hear a case about this now. I doubt that they'll take any case (arbcom deals with behavioral issues, they don't decide content issues), but who knows, they might. Regardless, there doesn't appear to be much commitment to this mediation. Going to RFAR now will either get them involved now and quit wasting everyone's time on a process that won't be accepted by the participants, or at least make it clear that arbitration isn't a solution (barring some severe misbehavior on the part of some participants). It looks to me as though the direct participants to this mediation are under the misaprehension that something binding and at least semi-permanent will come from it (something that can be imposed on others), which is silly. If people here want this to go to arbitration though, I can't think of a better way to get the committee involved then attempting to wield any result of this process as a club against other editors.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

  The arbitration committee won't accept the case until all previous dispute resolution has failed. There is no evidence that that point has been reached yet, and if this case is successful that point won't be reached until someone seriously challenges the consensus agreed here.

  There is quite a bit of commitment to the case from the people who were initially involved. HuskyHuskie invited another 100 people to join the discussion, you are hardly going to get all of them to immediately agree. There's plenty of opportunity for people to change their minds within this process. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I support the keeping of the current title pro-life, as this title is buttressed by reliable sources and is the most familiar one in vogue today. The opposition has misinterpreted WP:POVTITLE in order to support a renaming. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 06:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Please read the below section about POVTITLE about why that isn't really obvious. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:39, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Fundamental misreading of WP:POVTITLE

There is a fundamental misreading of WP:POVTITLE going on above. POVTITLE states: "When a significant majority of English-language reliable sources all refer to the topic or subject of an article by a given name, Misplaced Pages should follow the sources and use that name as our article title (subject to the other naming criteria)." - given that a significant number of media sources use anti-abortion instead of pro-life that doesn't obviously apply. If you feel that anti-abortion and abortion-rights are the more neutral than pro-life/pro-choice then you have a case, and one that really can't be refuted. Likewise if you feel pro-life/pro-choice are more neutral or are equally neutral then you have a case that can't really be refuted to have the articles at those locations.

Now another possible solution to this would be to say that WP:COMMONNAME trumps WP:NPOV but you have to get a majority of people to sign up on that, and you can't just assert WP:COMMONNAME trumps all without getting people's agreement that we are going to allow WP:COMMONNAME to trump WP:NPOV.

Additionally there are strong clarity issues especially with pro-choice. How do you know they aren't describing someone as pro-choice with regards to healthcare or education - especially for non-US sources where everyone cares significantly less about abortion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

A good example of this is Climategate which is actually located at Climatic Research Unit email controversy - I'm sure the number of sources using Climategate is much higher than the number using pro-life/pro-choice here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's an interesting tidbit from WP:COMMONNAME: "While titles for articles are subject to consensus, do not invent names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view. Misplaced Pages describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names." There's even a note for you in that section, Eraserhead1: "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged." And finally, per COMMONNAME, article titles can use "NPOV" names and that's OK because we are using what reliable sources use, not something wiki-editors invented. (Therefore, COMMONNAME trumps NPOV). --Kenatipo 21:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The point is that reliable sources don't just use pro-life/pro-choice, they use anti-abortion/abortion rights as well, they may do so less frequently, but not significantly less frequently, for example on the BBC pro life gets 1,560 hits and anti abortion gets 1,200 hits. That means on the BBC pro life gets 55% of the usage out of the two terms - that's definitely not significantly more. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Still, I don't see anywhere that just because there is more than one somewhat common name means that we should throw away WP:COMMONNAME. Rather we should find out which of the common names is the most commonly used and use that. Also as Kenatipo pointed out, I think the passage about not inventing new names get a compromise is relevant here.TheFreeloader (talk) 22:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Common name isn't the only naming policy you have to follow, names also have to be neutral. That's why we are stuck, because half the community thinks pro-life is more neutral and half the community thinks anti-aboriton is more neutral.

And lets not forget the next section in that policy WP:NDESC which is what Steven is essentially proposing we do instead. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:20, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

As I see it, descriptive titles are only to be used for when there are no obvious common names to choose from. Not when there is more than one common name from which to choose. I think that is part of what WP:POVTITLE is about too. We should not discard common names just because they aren't neutral in the eyes of some. We should not let editors (i.e. community) decide whether or not names commonly used by reliable sources are neutral.TheFreeloader (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

So how do you propose picking between pro-life/pro-choice and anti-abortion/abortion rights? Frankly there is no obvious one to use as the community has issues with both of them. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, it should not be for the community to decide if they are appropriate. Rather we should pick between the options in the way suggested by WP:UCN, which is to make a general survey of major news outlets, encyclopedias, scientific papers and other reliable sources to decide on which of the options is more commonly used.TheFreeloader (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Its the opposite approach from Steven's but its probably worth a try. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, although I would also argue that we should probably go with Steven's approach at first to get back to parallel titles more quickly. Finding out what is actually the more common option can probably take some time.TheFreeloader (talk) 23:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that is the best way forward as if the WP:UCN search is inconclusive we have something good to stick with. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'd like to mention again that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" reflect systemic bias and are resticted to the abortion debates going on in the U.S., and by exension sometimes the UK. It therefore leaves out the abortion debates in the entire rest of the world. Since I presume the two articles seek to cover the issue throughout the world, then we must by definition not use the two self-created American terms (at least one of which in and of itself is confusing and non-specific). Moreover, we've covered all this POV vs. COMMONNAME in the two endless debates which sparked the need for this mediation. Softlavender (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

NPOV is more important than COMMONNAME or other titling guidelines, as it is explicitly an expression of one of the WP:pillars of wikipedia; it even says in the policy that "The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus." That seems a pretty clear basis on which to reject COMMONNAME if there are no common names which meet NPOV. (I note that several of the people above objecting to a change actually do so from an explicit POV (it's just pro-abortionists etc.). We can't be having that sort of thing here. Stick to principles, not politics, please.) VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:03, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Current names

For clarity, the current names are 'abortion-rights movement' and 'pro-life movement' ; these current names aren't consistent. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

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