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Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

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Requests for clarification

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Request for clarification: WP:ARBR&I

Initiated by Mathsci (talk) at 21:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Statement by Mathsci

Miradre is under a three month topic ban under WP:ARBR&I and appears to have broken that ban by editing too close to the limits. I have filed a report at WP:AE. That is not the issue here.

Captain Occam, who is subject to a very general topic ban which I would have thought precludes his involvement in such requests if he is not directly implicated, has added comments there claiming to be "uninvolved". However, he has used the occasion to launch an attack on my edits on wikipedia, in an area outside my self-imposed voluntary topic ban, to which I have adhered fairly scrupulously. That self-imposed restriction does not apply to project space, although I have agreed that requests at WP:AE related to WP:ARBR&I will be sparing (as has been the case). Captain Occam's attack on me there appears to break his topic ban and I actually don't understand the logic of his misusing WP:AE in that way. He has used the occasion to launch an attack on me which has nothing whatsover to do with arbitration enforcement.

Perhaps he could have made a posting on WP:ANI about his concerns, although I appear to have made hardly any edits of any substance to articles recently. His complaints on WP:AE seem to be reiterating the disruptive trolling (now reverted) of yet another sockpuppet of A.K.Nole, A.B.C.Hawkes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was just blocked by Sandstein after two SPIs with some help also from Elen of the Roads.

I am not under any ArbCom restrictions. Captain Occam, however, seems to have broken the terms of his extended topic ban and appears to be abusing the arbitration enforcement page. I am reporting this here because it seems so anomolous.

Please could ArbCom clarify whether Captain Occam's attack on me in this context is within the terms of his topic ban, as extended subsequently at WP:AE.

There is also the issue of the two confirmed meatpuppets of Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2, who since the topic bans appear to have been editing on behalf of the topic banned users. Their real life identities have been confirmed to ArbCom at the start of the year. SightWatcher has complained about me in the same vociferous way as Captain Occam, which is hardly surprising in the circumstances. Several users, including administrators, have privately and on-wiki raised doubts about three further accounts that have appeared since the topic ban, editing exclusively in the area of the topic ban. These users are Woodsrock, Boothello and Miradre; the only evidence so far has been circumstantial. Mathsci (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• Update EdJohnston has confirmed on WP:AE that Captain Occam appears to have violated the terms of his topic ban by commenting on WP:AE in a case under WP:ARBR&I in which he is not involved. Mathsci (talk) 22:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• Further update The terms of EdJohnston's original extension did contain a loophole which Captain Occam has used. However, one of his intentions for posting at WP:AE, and not WP:ANI, appears to have been to lobby for restrictions to be imposed on my editing in project space. Since at least two accounts have been editing on his behalf during his topic ban, that is a surprising request. But he must surely be aware of the continuing problems with the community banned user Mikemikev, which make such a request completely out of the question. Just in the last two weeks or so Mikemikev has created a flurry of sockpuppets, some extremely malicious. The most malicious involve outing explicitly in user names. All traces of these have been removed from wikipedia, thanks to the kind help of Fred Bauder, Casliber, Elen of the Roads and LessHeard VanU. In addition Mikemikev has posted nasty racist comments on Stormfront and created two racist attack pages on ED.ch, dealt with by an administrator there with an account here. As Comicania he created an attack file on Commons which was dealt with here and on Commons with the kind help of MastCell, Moonriddengirl and Philippe Beaudette of WMF. It has taken a lot of effort and vigilance in project space, with the dedicated help of checkusers, to deal with this disruption connected with WP:ARBR&I. Arbitrators have been kept informed about these problems and continue to be extremely helpful. Other off-wiki disruption connected with friends of Ferahgo the Assassin on FurAffinity involves racist attacks on User:Muntuwandi and me, which ArbCom has been told about. Newyorkbrad used the terms "troubling overtones" a year ago; those overtones have not gone away or become any less troubling. Mathsci (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment about Captain Occam I do not quite understand what Captain Occam means about harassment. SightWatcher has complained about my edits to Risker on her user talk page, who, because she is recused from all matters related to WP:ARBR&I, was unaware that SightWatcher is a real life friend of Ferahgo the Assassin. Captain Occam has intervened on his own initiative, presumably following my edits from afar, and has lobbied for sanctions against me on WP:AE. Captain Occam is aware that my recommendation would be that were his topic ban to be lifted formally, i.e. delisted from the ArbCom page, it should probably be replaced by a voluntary and indefinite withdrawal by him and his friends from all articles and their talk pages related to race and intelligence, reasonably interpreted. As for his statements below, I find them very hard to understand. Out of the blue, in a situation where he has not been mentioned, he launches an unprovoked vitriolic attack on me on WP:AE, describing me in extremely uncomplimentary terms without the slightest shred of evidence; he then complains here that he is being victimized by me. What is all this nonsense? Mathsci (talk) 00:56, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Miradre

I must say that this request to prohibit another user from uttering an opinion seems very hypocritical considering that Mathsci himself in a RfC argued that he should be able to participate on "process pages" while promising to stay away from the topic itself. See the discussion for removing the topic ban as well as Mathsci's stated desire to be able to voice opinions on "process pages" while staying away from the topic itself. Also, his description of me is incorrect and I argue in the AE case that he himself has broken his promise to the ArbCom to stay away from the topic area.Miradre (talk) 22:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Captain Occam

I already mentioned this in the AE thread, but Ferahgo’s and my topic bans specifically do not extend to AE. This was first pointed out by ArbCom in a previous request for clarificaiton. When Ferahgo’s and my topic bans were extended in this thread, the thread also mentioned AE as a special exception, and the advice that I not participate in R&I-related AE threads is listed as “not compulsory”.

I need to make it clear that in general I have been trying to avoid Mathsci since the beginning of the year. He has not returned the favor. The most obvious example of this was his attempt to get me site-banned in February, which grew out of an argument that he initiated with me in Jimbo Wales’ user talk about my letter which was published in The Economist. In response to that amendment thread, several arbitrators told him that he should cease his involvement in the R&I topic area. Mathsci doesn’t appear to have followed that advice. In addition to his various enforcement requests against other editors during the time since then, on June 30th he sent me e-mail saying that I will have to put up with this again myself if I attempt to appeal my topic ban. Specifically, he said that he will demand that my topic ban be lifted only if I promise to never edit race-related articles again, and that he’ll support this with all the same accusations of meatpuppetry and whatnot that he’s made in the February thread and the current one. I’d had no recent involvement with Mathsci when he sent me this message; the only context of him sending it was that I was discussing the possibility of appealing my topic ban with Newyorkbrad. (Jclemens has seen the contents of the e-mail.)

I would like to have as little to do with Mathsci as possible, but I would also like to have the opportunity to eventually appeal my topic ban without Mathsci using it as a platform to pursue the same interpersonal dispute against me that he’s been pursuing for more than a year. For the past month, I have been attempting to discuss with ArbCom whether there is a way that that’s possible, but have had very little success communicating with them effectively. (The main problem I’ve been having is arbitrators either not responding to me at all, or abruptly ceasing to respond while I’m trying to discuss the issue with them.) I’m kind of at my wit’s end about this. An appeal is supposed to be an opportunity for an editor to discuss with ArbCom whether or not his or her editing has improved. It’s not supposed to be an opportunity for someone else sanctioned in the same case to continue pursing the same interpersonal dispute that originally led to arbitration. But that’s what Mathsci has promised it will be, if I attempt to appeal my topic ban.

This is why I began paying attention to his behavior towards Miradre. After Mathsci sent me this e-mail on June 30, I wanted to see just how severe his harassment behavior is nowadays, since apparently I’ll soon have to put up with this again myself. My reason for mentioning this at AE is because I’m still hoping that if something could be done about this behavior while Mathsci is directing it at Miradre, perhaps when I appeal my topic ban I won’t have to put up with it myself. I don’t actually want to take a side in the Mathsci/Miradre dispute, especially not as far as content is concerned. I just care about my ability to not be harassed myself when I’m ready to appeal my topic ban, and after a month of silence from ArbCom in response to my efforts to discuss how this might be possible, bringing attention to his harassment behavior at AE is the only way I can think of that this might be possible.

I hope this thread can receive attention from the arbitrators that I’ve tried to talk to about the possibility of appealing my ban: Newyorkbrad, Cool Hand Luke, and especially Jclemens. Please, I’m asking all of you—give me a way to appeal my topic ban without having to put up with this, such as permission to appeal it in a private hearing. That’s the only thing I really care about here. If I can be given that, I won’t have any need to try and forestall Mathsci’s promised harassment of me by trying to get attention for it when it’s being directed at someone else.

In response to SirFozzie: if the arbitrators want me to change my comment at AE to not describe myself as uninvolved, I’m willing to do that. However, what I think really needs to be addressed here is the issue I described above. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments

I hope I’ve made this clear already, but I think it bears repeating that I really don’t want to be in the middle of this conflict. I’d rather not be posting at AE about anyone’s editing in the R&I topic area. But as described in my post above, Mathsci has made it clear that he isn’t able to leave me alone even in situations where I’ve had nothing to do with him or R&I articles in the past several months (which was the case in June). His e-mail to me also makes it clear that I can expect more of this from him in the future. Until there is some sort of long-term solution to this problem, I feel like trying to get attention for Mathsci’s harassment behavior is the only option I have available. I really hope ArbCom can come up with a solution to this, especially one that doesn’t require the amount of stress from me that interacting with Mathsci always involves. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:40, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to Volunteer Marek

As you haven’t been involved in articles on this topic for very long, I don’t think you have a good understanding the history of this situation. This isn’t just an issue of Mathsci’s most recent e-mail to me. Mathsci’s repeated attempts to get me and Ferahgo sanctioned, and following me to discussions that had nothing to do with him in order to argue with me, have been an ongoing issue since the ARBR&I case closed a year ago. It’s involved several threads at AE and AN/I, a sockpuppet investigation, and an attempt to get me site-banned via an arbitration amendment in February. Based on his repeated claiming that editors who disagree with him are specific real-life friends of Ferahgo, he’s also apparently conducted a large amount of real-life research about her. She’s a 24-year-old girl, and she doesn’t appreciate having a middle-aged man that she doesn’t know prying into aspects of her personal life. I think ArbCom is already aware of the extent of this, and four different arbitrators have already told him in response to his amendment thread to stop pushing for enforcement against me. Mathsci has ignored that request: just as one example, he opened his sockpuppet investigation about me three months after ArbCom gave him these instructions.

You can’t just look at a single AE thread, without any familiarity with the background of this situation, and think that what you see there gives you the complete picture. You have to look at this in the context of the year-long pattern of behavior that exists as background. When a pattern like this has existed long enough, it’s not possible to not believe the person in question when they tell you that they intend to continue with it. Two editors who have been paying attention to this situation for as long as it’s been going on, and who might be able to help you understand my AE post in the proper context, are Ludwigs2 and Maunus. (Incidentally, these aren’t editors who have tended to agree with me about content, so I’m not just pointing you to editors who are on my “side” in content disputes.) --Captain Occam (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

I have added a comment on the current WP:AE request about Miradre to indicate that Captain Occam doesn't seem to be violating his current topic ban by posting there. (My wording *advised* him not to post at AE about other people but it did not forbid it). In general, I think that in the future, any broad topic bans that are written (those bans which include talk pages) should disallow commenting about others on any page of Misplaced Pages, including AE, unless the person's own edits are under review. Such article+talk topic bans should still allow direct appeals to Arbcom. It is too late for me to fix the wording that I drafted for the AE sanction that was issued to Captain Occam on December 2, 2010. EdJohnston (talk) 00:01, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Question/statement on Capt. Occam's statement:

I hope I’ve made this clear already, but I think it bears repeating that I really don’t want to be in the middle of this conflict. - yet you show up on AE out of the blue in a case in which you haven't been mentioned with a 7097 character/1213 word statement (basically the equivalent of a decent sized Misplaced Pages article). That just doesn't look like a "really don't want"a to me. It looks like a "I'm itching to be in this again".

I don’t actually want to take a side in the Mathsci/Miradre dispute - you might not want to but somehow you did.

I just care about my ability to not be harassed myself when I’m ready to appeal my topic ban - so you pick a (real) fight with Mathsci today because of some hypothetical harassment you think he might engage in the future?

Note that Capt. Occam (and a sock of Mikemikev) aside, the consensus at AE is pretty much that Mirardre's edits are trouble - so if this was some kind of attempt to preempt possibility of future harassment, as silly as that is in itself, Capt. Occam definitely picked a wrong situation to do it in.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• My first thought is to direct the parties (and Captain Occam) to not comment on each other until at least the AE request is worked out. I do have doubts that Captain Occam can be truly described as uninvolved in this situation, and I hope whatever administrator actions the AE request takes that into account when actioning the request. SirFozzie (talk) 22:27, 9 August 2011 (UTC)