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Create your own section to provide evidence in, and do not edit anyone else's section. Keep your evidence to a maximum of 500 words and 50 diffs. Evidence longer than this will be refactored or removed entirely.

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Create your own section and do not edit in anybody else's section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum of 500 words and 50 diffs. Giving a short, concise presentation will be more effective; posting evidence longer than 500 words will not help you make your point. Over-long evidence that is not exceptionally easy to understand (like tables) will be trimmed to size or, in extreme cases, simply removed by the Clerks without warning - this could result in your important points being lost, so don't let it happen. Stay focused on the issues raised in the initial statements and on diffs which illustrate relevant behavior.

It is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff in question, or to a short page section; links to the page itself are insufficient. Never link to a page history, an editor's contributions, or a log for all actions of an editor (as those will have changed by the time people click on your links), although a link to a log for a specific article or a specific block log can be useful. Please make sure any page section links are permanent. See simple diff and link guide.

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see the talk page. If you think another editor's evidence is a misrepresentation of the facts, cite the evidence and explain how it is incorrect within your own section. Please do not try to refactor the page or remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, leave it for the Arbitrators or Clerks to move.

Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as Arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators (and clerks, when clarification on votes is needed) may edit the proposed decision page.

Evidence presented by Penwhale

Current word length: 282; diff count: 0.

My Involvement

My involvement in this case is only restricted to a discussion on the Senkaku Islands talk page and restoration of a {{POV-title}} tag that was placed (and removed) by Feezo in an attempt to mediate the case, as by virtue of the discussion at the talk page, I felt the tag should have been in place.

My view

Despite my political bias, I, along with zscout370, suggested that keeping the article at its current name is just as politically not neutral as moving it to Diaoyu(tai), as each name suggests support for one side's view. As multiple editors attempted to use various forms of resource hits, it became clear that there doesn't seem to be an overwhelming domination of one term over the other in western usage. Thus, both me and zscout370 suggested a move to a neutral title similar to what was done at Liancourt Rocks.

Response to Oda Mari

Yes, I might have a Chinese bias, but I do not think this article belongs at the name Diaoyu(tai) (Islands) because we'd have the same exact argument like the one we are having right now. Like I've said on the article talk page - media outlets have tried to avoid this argument by naming both names in articles; this really serves as proof that SI isn't exactly an NPOV name either. That's exactly why I've been asking the question "Can we use the same compromise as in Liancourt Rocks; i.e. find a neutral, English name?" I know that the situation may be different, but it serves as a good place to start. Also, another point: we may need clarification on how to work the naming conventions within policy, which I hope the arbitrators will take a look at.

Evidence presented by STSC

Current word length: 90; diff count: 0.

Nonsensical reasoning by Qwyrxian that has prolonged the dispute

• "We've established before that the title is NPOV"

--- How could the title with the Japanese name "Senkaku Islands" be established as NPOV while Japan is a participant in the territory dispute?

• Insisting that the title should be "Senkaku Islands" because it is the English name.

--- If "Senkaku Islands" is the English name, then "Diaoyu Islands" or "Diaoyutai Islands" is also the English name.

The Kuril Islands - A response to Cla68's weak argument

• Kuril is not a Russian name. It's originated from the local islanders' language.
• Only 4 out of 56 islands in Kuril Islands are in dispute.

A response to Qwyrxian's misleading, confusing and desperate allegations

diff no. 70 & 71: The arguement was based on John Smith's insisting to remove "Japan lost the war in 1945".
diff no. 72: Read the 01:54, 24 September 2010 version of the article just before my statement, then you'll know what I meant.
diff no. 73: The argument was based on Phoenix7777 removing my POV-check tag.
diff no. 74: Just read the whole section I created, what's wrong with this?
diff no. 75: The light-hearted chatting on the personal talk pages is just pure pettiness; and it cannot be used as "evidence".

There's the real danger of Qwyrxian misusing his administrator's power

Incredibly he is still insisting he can misrepresent (or "interpret" as he put it) other editors' wording and freely impose his own view on what other editors actually say. Qwyrxian cannot be an administrator with this kind of self-centered mentality; otherwise he may be dishing out unfair blocks to other editors simply based on his own "interpretation" on the events and not the facts.

Evidence presented by Lvhis

Current word length: 542; diff count: 48.

Qwyrxian has used Original Research preventing consensus

A key issue for the pages in question is which name is from which language. I have repeatedly shown that there are Reliable Sources (two of them from Japanese authors to avoid POV) confirming "Pinnacle Islands" is the real English name while the current name "Senkaku" used for the pages is the Japanese name . User:Qwyrxian repeatedly using Original Research asserted that the Japanese name is the real English name, and refused to provide reliable sources when requested for several times . He demonstrated that he did not possess a basic background of the naming history for this geographical entity . By this means he refused to reach consensus on an edited version that was a certain consensus supported by the reliable sources and an outcome from previous discussion .

Qwyrxian also opposed the common applicability of Misplaced Pages guideline WP:NCGN#Multiple local names and the typical example "Liancourt Rocks" by asserting that "Misplaced Pages actually doesn't strive to have cross-article consistency", i.e. refused to keep wiki NPOV consistency among articles when he replied user Marcopolo112233's challenge "Naming consistency" , and as he always does, he intentionally avoided referring the most suitable Misplaced Pages guideline when he mentioned some wiki guidelines and policies (cf. 24).

As a consequence, Qwyrxian's such violation of Wiki policies "WP:SOURCE", "WP:NOR", and "WP:NPOV" has made consensus practically impossible in solving disputes not only on page edition but also on naming issue. --Lvhis (talk) 17:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

User Oda Mari

In this section she also violated "WP:SOURCE", "WP:NOR", and "WP:NPOV" following Qwyrxian. --Lvhis (talk) 17:58, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Improper conduct with double standards and gaming the system ruined efforts preventing edit-warring

This was mainly done by some users authorized with adminship in managing the page Senkaku Islands dispute. Initially an unorthodox sanction was set by admin Magog the Ogre for this page and worked quite well at beginning, though with a cost that I was mistakenly blocked (which only took less than 2 hours after I was reported ). Some sort of consensus for editing a part had even been reached (when Qwyrxian had wiki break for certain reason). But later this sanction became actually in vain, not only by user:Tenmei's violation ( after ) but also by user Qwyrxian's cooperative "revert" and a "discussion" which interrupted another ongoing discussion obeying the sanction at of . No response from the admin during a period of 31 hours with 4 reports on this violation . User Qwyrxian neither reported this violation to admin Magog nor assisted to enforce the sanction fairly to stop edit-warring. Instead, he made an excuse for user Tenmei to game the system . When Tenmei came back from his "wiki pause" of such gaming, he challenged the sanction bolder and bolder , and eventually has made admin Magog fully protected that page . Agreeing on user Bobthefishe2's question here , I also believe that this full protection is like another unbalanced enforcement of rules because now only one user (Tenmei) had violated the rule and the admin would have only needed to ban this user alone but no need to prevent all other innocent users from editing the page by faithfully obeying the sanction. --Lvhis (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I once ignited a hope that Qwyrxian would improve himself and help to solve this dispute when he was elected new admin though I made my firm Oppose #5 in his RfA. Now I have been totally disappointed. --Lvhis (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Cla68

Current word length: 387; diff count: 3.

In December 2010 I made the following edits to the Senkaku Islands article . On 23 January 2011, STSC split the paragraphs I had written, and added "citation needed" tags . STSC's addition of the word "technically" to the text is supported by the source, but the "citation needed" tags are not, as the source contained all the information included in my original edit. Later, PalaceGuard008 made this edit , in which he/she introduced text which appears to dispute the assertions from the source. I noticed what had happened in April, and brought it up on the article talk page since the article was locked down. Tenmei gave a response in which he promoted use of more sources for that section. My request and his suggestions appear to have been ignored. STSC and PalaceGuard008's edits to the text I added were, in my opinion, not very helpful.

I was partially involved in a similar dispute a few years ago over the Sea of Japan naming dispute. That dispute eventually faded away because, I suspect, the involved editors found better things to do. I believe one or two of the more troublesome editors were banned for edit warring, which probably helped out a lot. Nevertheless, in this case, I suggest flushing out the editors who are fighting a little too hard over the article's content, so that editors who don't have as emotional a stake in the outcome can help shape the article into a stable, reasonably NPOV version.

As far as the name of the article, Japan's government administers the islands and its coast guard and other military forces keep them that way, so I think the appropriate name is fairly obvious. There is precedence for this in Misplaced Pages. The southern Kuril Islands belonged to Japan from 1855 until 1945, when they were occupied by Russia at the end of WWII. Japan disputes Russia's possession of these islands. The English Misplaced Pages article for them is the Kuril Islands, although the Japanese name is "Chishima Islands" (the article in the Japanese Misplaced Pages carries this name). Government possession appears to be a crucial factor in deciding the name given to groups of islands. Editors who dispute this too strongly give the impression that they are trying to reclaim the islands on behalf of the government which claims previous ownership. Cla68 (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Qwyrxian

Current word length: 681; diff count: 31.

General statement

I believe there are three editors who are causing the bulk of the problems on these pages; a fourth is generally good though needs a little bit of AGF.

Bobthefish2

Bobthefish2 has long had a battlefield mentality () and where he incites new editor Lvhis to adopt the same attitude), incivility (), and a willingness to game the system (xe advocated getting the page locked so that people give up and leave ). The WQA filed against him failed to improve the situation because xe was unwilling to consider xyr behavior to be a problem. Things became worse after Bobthefish2 returned from a Wikibreak. When problems occurred in Mediation, Bobthefish2 made them public, accusing mediator Feezo on usertalk pages of lack of expertise, and implying that Feezo lacks competence and starts fights. I'm certain MedCom can vouch that this is not what actually occurred. Bobthefish2 continued to try building a battleground mentality in Lvhis ().

I believe that Bobthefish2 has switched from pursuing DR to intentionally disrupting the process by baiting other users and trying to drive users away by upsetting them. and show xem refusing parts of guidelines that harm xyr position on "common sense" grounds while placing the burden on me to justify following them, along with a focus on minutiae designed to frustrate forward progress. A few days later, he resumed verbally attacking John Smith's ( plus the collapsed part of Talk:Senkaku Islands#Encyclopedias/almanacs), which culminated in links to cartoons which are at best in poor taste and at worst racist. He described me as foaming at the mouth and Magog and me as having forgotten our medication.

In sum, I believe that Bobthefish2's uncivil disruption is actively preventing forward progress on these pages.

Tenmei

Tenmei's behavior in Arbitration so far exemplifies the problems xe has in the SI articles. Tenmei's writing style is obscure and filled with links to quotations and cliches, "dispute resolution tables", and graphics that don't help the process. Furthermore, as xe did on the Proposals page, xe often attacks the very people who try to help xem. A few examples:

• In this thread he included 2 tables, a DR graph, 10 diffs, 3 wiktionary definition-links, etc.; xyr message failed to be conveyed. Similar recent example: .
• Latin phrases: ,
• Scroll through Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute/Archive 1, and you'll see 3 different unhelpful images from Tenmei.
• Failure to understand xyr style isn't working: . After I explained that his writing was overlong and incomprehensible, xe responded with another section that's even longer and harder to follow.
• Tenmei sometimes tries to compel others to change their words or speak for them ().

Tenmei's inability to express xyrself in simple, concise ways is disruptive, because it compels editors who care to spend an inordinate amount of time deciphering his message. Sometimes these long messages come off as attacking and uncivil. Tenmei has previously been warned about this by Arbcom, in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty. Sadly, the combination of Tenmei's inability to get his point across on talk, along with his conviction that every edit he makes is "pro-Misplaced Pages", renders his presence on these articles a net negative.

STSC

For a long time, STSC has treated his "opponents" on the Senkaku Islands articles with disrespect by accusing them of sabotage and hidden agendas (, , , , ). STSC treats the subject as a war (). Furthermore, even though STSC disputes my interpretation, I still believe this statement implies he will never accept the name Senkaku, no matter how many times consensus favors it; this refusal to accept consensus is antithetical to collaborative editing.

Lvhis

Lvhis is mostly a good editor. Sometimes Lvhis is too stubborn (). The only major problem is when the stubbornness combines with misinterpretation. It concerns me that Lvhis thinks xe/they managed to prove SI supporters completely wrong in mediation, even though mediation simply ended without any resolution (though not Lvhis's fault), or that I am blatantly flouting WP:NPOV or WP:NOR as xe explains in xyr Evidence, when I'm just trying to following policy as best as I can. If Lvhis would just AGF that other users really are trying to apply the rules, even when interpretations differ, xe will be good to work with.

Evidence presented by Bobthefish2

Current word length: 696; diff count: 51.

Qwyrxian

Months ago, he instigated a WQA against me. Though I was new and was condescending, matter was compounded by the rude/disruptive behaviour of other involved parties. The WQA could’ve been fair and assessed behaviours of all involved parties but the request was refused and thus the case was designed to be one-sided. After the WQA, Qwyrxian attempted to present me as the source of incivility problems. He hounded my posts but downplayed violations of others to single me out for civility problems. Examples:

• – Edit-war/disruptive-editing accusation. Ironically, Qwyrxian defended me ; he obviously withdrew that support now.
• – Rude; endorsed
• – tactics are smoke_and_mirrors, without substance.
• – "Shill", "seduced by fraud", "con-game"
• – Personal-attacks
• – Attacks on MedCom

Qwyrxian’s evidence section should show a stark contrast between his emphasis on my behaviour w.r.t. his critique on others. This disproportionate and discriminative hounding is turning into harassment. In addition, here’s his own share of incivility, disruptive editing, and personal-attacks:

1. He frequently condemns critiques on others as BATTLEGROUND /UNCIVIL regardless of justification while refusing to apply same standards to others. See Qwyrxian’s evidence and content above/below.
2. He accused me of OWN when I wanted to request user-ban for tendentious-editing .
3. He demonstrated failure in following/understanding/acknowledging his opponent’s reasoning/evidence and later claimed ignorance on these details (we’ve spent 10 months + mediation' on this subject already. . Showed him diffs on details, explained why some guideline shouldn’t apply. Despite my efforts, he kept dismissing my reasons as arbitrary. ) . He finally admitted negligence of evidence/arguments/information of opponents, but showed continual failure in recognizing the details by repeatedly dismissing the evidence as unreliable generic search results despite the data being explicitly shown/described to be manually verified literature sources. He continued to force guideline adherence and felt his small hand-sampled encyclopedia/almanacs should be given undue importance. . Another round o’explanation. Raised concerns about the sample size of his small sampling of encyclopedia/almanacs. Explained that this small narrow sample shouldn’t be considered more important than the numerous literature/catalogue searches which housed a much more diverse sample of reliable sources. . He attacked me (see #4), got stressed-out, declared a break , then returned with erratic behaviour, accused me of taking advantage of him, continued to condemn me for criticizing guidelines ‘’I don’t like’’, asked me to open a map-printing company in response to critique of his sample size (he had only 5 maps). . Final explanation to him which he didn’t reply (also mocked his outburst). .
4. He called me racist over some comics. . User:Benlisquare defended me; I also explained myself . Qwyrxian disregarded, threw a big tantrum about political correctness and racism, insulted me ("allegedly-smart", "trolling"), admitted discriminative bias against me. He refused to apologize/discuss the matter later by saying I was trying to bait him (nice excuse) . BATTLEGROUND anyone?
5. GAME (See Magog_the_Ogre).

Magog_the_Ogre

He imposed break-BRD=block rule and blocked Lvhis for breaking BRD. Later, Tenmei broke BRD and Magog refused to block arguing no BRD-breaking . Debated Magog’s decision . Tenmei declared wiki-break . Magog said I was ‘’getting on his nerves’’ . He later closed topic, implied I had sinister agenda . User:Elen_of_the_Roads agreed Magog’s wrong . Qwyrxian gamed the system, argued Tenmei shouldn’t be blocked due to his wiki-break , I contradicted , he gamed the system again by saying block shouldn’t be used for punishment , I said block should be enforced as preventative measure vs. gaming . This matter was eventually closed because it was going nowhere and Tenmei immediately cancelled wiki-break (well, guess who’s right about suspecting GAME?) . Later, Magog said I’m nothing but troll due to this .

Tenmei

Principle source of DISRUPT. Principle cause of mediation failure (attacked MedCom/Qwyrxian/myself, refused cooperation). Dumps excessive amount of irrelevant/long/incomprehensible/rude comments/attacks in discussions. Ignores pleas for better communication. See his RFCU for some details.

Others (limited; non-comprehensive)

Repeated edit-wars that got page locked numerous times (ask User:Nihonjoe, the admin who locked the pages on several occasions). No space to discuss many DISRUPT (but some can be seen in list of UNCIVIL diffs above). Recent example includes:

1. Someone claiming Taiwanese are not Chinese people . Listed as one of the evidence. Person quietly changed that page w/o discussion/notification (swiftly reverted by someone else) .
2. Someone started ANI and attacked an admin from Taiwan (Penwhale) for alleged COI in re-instating the POV tag on the article name.

Evidence presented by Tenmei

Current word length: 379; diff count: 6.

Bad apples

Qwyrxian's overview here is reflected by Magog who argues that "censure of the bad apples would be quite helpful." This is not wrong, but it is short-sighted. This focuses only on identifying culprits. For example, Qwyrxian is not a bad apple, but some of his diffs were misconstrued by Bobthefish2 and others; and unanticipated consequences exacerbated or "fed" our problems, e.g.,

• Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 7#U.S. Control prior to 1972: Qwyrxian re-frames the thread here with a conciliatory edit summary -- "ceding the point--it's not really that important"
• Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 7#Edit warring: Qwyrxian re-frames here with an hortatory edit summary -- "yes yes, we're all upset...now let's make peace and move forward"

What else did "good apples" overlook? Rejecting "bad apples" alone does not help us find ways to do better.

Prevention is better than cure

In his initial analysis, John Smith's observed here that "ometimes prevention is better than cure". This begs questions which appear to be ignored.

The diffs cited by others were selected for purposes which have been made explicit. This ArbCom venue presents an opportunity to investigate with a different objective. In each perceived example of misconduct, the question becomes something to do with discovering a plausible antidote or anti-tactic which might have served to "re-frame" or "spin" something better?

Timely prevention is always better than an untimely cure.

Unstated premises

This is modified from Requests for mediation/Senkaku Islands#Issues to be mediated

Unstated premises in the scope of arbitration need to be explicit. Some of the foreseeable consequences of some problems are mitigated by identifying them.

• Domino effect. Senkaku Islands and Senkaku Islands dispute are complicated by the "domino effect" which flows from every step of the articles' development.

• Looking backward. This subject is a battleground.

• Looking forward. Arbitration's structural premise is that all necessary parties have agreed to participate; but not all are joined. In the future as in the past, this subject will attract editors whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

• Fact vs. factoid. Our conventional processes and threshold requirements for inclusion in Misplaced Pages are not dispensable when POV is alleged to be a red flag.

• False dilemma. Characterising the participants as "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Too often, a false dichotomy posits a problem which doesn't need to be a problem. --Tenmei (talk) 03:48, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Oda Mari

Current word length: 500; diff count: 31.

General statement

The recent mess began after 2010 Senkaku boat collision incident and was caused by some Chinese editors driven by their nationalism at the incident.

Bobthefish2 (talk · contribs), a disruptive SPA

SPA

Account creation was on Sept. 10, 2010, just after the Sept. 7 Senkaku boat collision incident. After 31 edits, he came to the SI article talk page on Oct. 3. About 80% of his contributions are Senkaku related. He was away from WP from March 8 to May 25 when the articles were protected. Again in June when the mediation was pending.

Conduct

• Canvassing at zh WP.
  On Oct. 7 in enOn Oct. 7 in en
  Left a comment to the canvassing thread Lvhis created. On June 23 in zh
• Pushing a fabricated news article in zh as RS when there are sources in en.
  
• Sarcasm
  
• Unnecessary comments
  

Lvhis (talk · contribs)

• He may not be a SPA, but about 70% of his contributions are SI related.
• Canvassing at zh WP in en and zh.
• Chinese admin shopping
  Asked for help to user:Nlu at zh WP and was told “dual name title is too long”.
  
  Requested Penwhale to edit. It was answered promptly.

Possible tag team

Bobthefish2, Lvhis, and STSC have been talking about other editors, especially about those who with different views, and about the articles. I've never seen this kind of talks before. (Though inactive since December 19, San9663 (talk · contribs) was a SPA.)

I just don't like it /any name but Senkaku

When I saw the POV tag, I asked myself "Who think it's biased?". North and South America, Europe, Africa, Middle East…most people are indifferent or don’t think it biased. My answer was Chinese, Taiwanese, Overseas Chinese, and CPOV supporters. I asked Penwhale the question. Conclusion: Only Chinese and Taiwanese think Senkaku biased. Those who say the SI is a biased name are CPOV pushers, abusing NPOV policy. Additionally, when I saw this, I thought "Any name will do for them but the single use of Senkaku".

I didn’t hear that the Liancourt Rocks was the common name

Zscout370 suggested the Pinnacle Islands was the only option, citing Liancourt Rocks. I refuted. His next post was a misconception. I pointed it out. No response. The talk died out, and I couldn’t refute further. But Zscout370, Lvhis, and Penwhale still think PI would be a good option at here. And what is worse, their claim is based on misunderstanding. I have no idea who wrote it, but the description of LR at WP:NCGN#Multiple local names is totally wrong. If you know the dispute well, it’s obvious. Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars#Liancourt Rocks The neutrality of the name is accidental. LR was chosen because it's the common name. But not PI. Bonin Islands (UNESCO uses Ogasawara Islands ref), Liancourt Rocks, and Sea of Japan. All of them are BGN 's approved names and used by the US government ref . Senkaku Shoto is the BGN's approved name too. I don't understand why they deny SI only nor why they keep on saying SI should be moved to the least common, almost obsolete name. Probably because of "any name but Senkaku". In other WPs, PI is used only in Tagalog and all the other WPs use Senkaku except Chinese languages.

Evidence presented by John Smith's

Tenmei

He is too verbose. He seems to find it hard to get his points across in ways that users can understand. He can result in delay in dealing with matters, but I don't think he is the main cause of the problems here.

STSC

As Qwyrxian indicates, it would appear that he has a set position that means he will not accept "Senkaku Islands" as an article title under any circumstances. This is a roadblock to progressing the article. He has also joined in with edit-warring over the NPOV tag.

Lvhis

Lvhis is not the main source of the trouble, but he has caused problems over his insistance that the relevant articles be tagged NPOV. It was disappointing that after I and some other users agreed to add an NPOV tag to the relevant article(s) as part of mediation, he declined to agree that it could be removed after mediation. He seems to want the article permanently tagged until the title is changed. He has also created edit wars by repeatedly reinserting a NPOV tag. He keeps claiming that removing the NPOV tag will start an edit war, yet he himself is largely to blame for edit warring by reinserting it after Tenmei removed it and then again after Oda Mari removed it. On the Senkaku Islands article, Lvhis has also kept reinserting the tag, suggesting that it is needed because there is an edit-war. I would argue that if it wasn't for Lvhis, there would be no edit-warring over the tag.

Bobthefish2

Bob pretends to be funny but causes disruption. As discussed during a Wikiquette alert posting, Bob does not seem to think that it is important to consider how people might react to what he writes. I would draw attention to Qwyxian's collapsed comment in the above link, as well as Bob's inability to recognise he has done anything wrong. Bob has a point of view, and that's all that's important. Despite the fact that Oda Mari had taken left the discussion because of Bob's attitude, Bob refused to apologise. It would have cost him nothing to make up with Oda Mari, but again he didn't see that he had done anything wrong. Bob also loves to poke away at me, referring to the loss of the British Empire and suggesting that I come from an ex-first rate power.

Bob also is not always transparent in complaining about other's behaviour. For example, see his comment in the above evidence where I discussed Penwhale's actions. For some reason he refers to me as "someone". Also note this reference to 5 guaranteed votes for status quo regardless of evidence presented. Although I ask him to clarify his comment, he does not say who he was referring to, though it's obvious he can only be referring to me, Tenmei, Oda Mari, Phoenix777 and Qwyrxian. This does not suggest he is acting in good faith.

Bob has clearly demonstrated that he is not capable or interested in working in a collaborative way with editors he disagrees with on issues such as this.

Evidence presented by {your user name}

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