Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:50, 17 September 2011

Aviation: Accidents Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> | b2<!--Coverage and accuracy   --> = <yes/no> | b3<!--Structure               --> = <yes/no> | b4<!--Grammar and style       --> = <yes/no> | b5<!--Supporting materials    --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion. This article is supported by the Aviation accident project.

It is requested that a photograph of nothing too graphic please be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Nevada may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

Airplane modifications

I've removed a sentence referring to modifications to the plane, for now. There is no evidence so far that this is in any way related to the cause of the crash, and we should not be encouraging speculation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, it was deemed important by Reuters, who published the info. We should not encourage speculation, but I think it's notable that the plane was recently modified. We are not, of course, implying that the modifications had anything to do with the crash; we are just mentioning info that was deemed relevant by a WP:RS. Nanobear (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

There is now an article about the plane itself that has info about the modifications: The Galloping Ghost airplane. So maybe there's no need to mention them here. Nanobear (talk) 03:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Number of Injured

There seems to be a contraction on the number of injuries at the moment. Most sources say the injury count is at 56, but due to "a number of people being transported by private vehicle" that count is too low. Should we continue to use the current known count, or a estimated count which is done currently on the Current Events page. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/3-dead-56-injured-horrific-reno-air-show-020656982.html 204.106.252.64 (talk) 03:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

There's WP:NORUSH, use what is reported in reliable sources. The total will become clear in a day or twk. Mjroots (talk) 06:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Candidate for deletion

Condolences to the relatives and friends of the deceased and injured, but this accident isn't unusual, and probably isn't worth breathlessly reporting in Misplaced Pages. I have personally witnessed the deaths of three aviators in front of the grandstands at Reno over the years, along with several non-fatal crashes. Where is their story? Why should the 2011 accident require special attention, other than stimulating the morbid fascinations of the contributors to this Misplaced Pages article?
This article should be deleted. I am not being facetious or callous in my statement, having lost friends and acquaintances in aviation accidents over the years. However, this article serves no useful purpose, any more than describing the lurid details of a highway crash. Leave that to the tabloids. — Quicksilver 07:33, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

25 dead is a major incident. (I wrote that from memory, but I am way off this case). The trend at Misplaced Pages tends to feature more detail than in previously. While I'm not sure how good/bad this trend is, I detest the inevitable AFD and round and rounds of debate each discussion gets, almost as if it's a war of attrition. If you still wish to propose it for deletion, please wait a few months. If you nominate it now, it will get snowed over with speedy keeps. As for your other point, it may be possible to create a general list of aircraft accidents. See List of rail accidents (2010–2019), for instance, which details lots of accidents too minor to create an article about (which, too, has been subject to debate as to what ones should qualify for mention). hbdragon88 (talk) 08:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned over on Talk:Reno Air Races, I believe this is the first crash in Reno history to result in spectator injuries, not to mention fatalities. That makes it somewhat different from an "ordinary" fatal crash. rdfox 76 (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The article is a bit thin at the moment, and needs more depth. Not every air crash needs its own article, and this could be merged with Reno Air Races.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I am a air race fan (1995-current, have missed 2 years). I understand the relative importances (why this and not the others), and the fact that the pilots and spectators are all very aware of the risks, and the subtext of risk of cancellation by risk-averse nanny-state types. However, in spite of all of this, when an event hits the top of the Google News page and stays there for a day, it's notable. I also tend to think the other crashes and accidents should get attention too, but i'm an anti-deletionist, so what do I know.  :-) KBrown (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Galloping Ghost: specific versus type of airplane?

It took several reads of the article before I convinced myself that "The Galloping Ghost" was a specific plane, rather than a nickname for the P-51D in general. I'm not sure how, but it would be good to make this more clear. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 12:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Merge The Galloping Ghost airplane into 2011 Reno Air Races crash

To continue my thoughts on Galloping Ghost as type or specific airplane, I propose that the newly-created article on the specific plane be merged into this article. The only reason the plane appears in Misplaced Pages is this crash; nobody will be looking up the plane itself without knowing about Reno. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 12:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The two articles should definitely be merged. The Galloping Ghost page was started the day after crash. There are only a few sentences to be merged into the crash article, anyway. The plane itself was not particularly important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.129.188 (talk) 15:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• • I disagree. This was a heavily modified airplane that in fact was certified as an experimental aircraft. To a pilot, or someone that is involved in aviation, the plane will become a subject of considerable concern, once the NTSB issues its crash report(s). The plane, the pilot and the tragic event are each worthy of consideration. I am a pilot and have been to reno & the other aircraft already have pages on Misplaced Pages: Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). as a example. Fact is this aircraft was only just brought back into the racing after years of "rest" and restoration. The pages should NOT be merged.WPPilot 15:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Speculating that it may become notable is not enough. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Could someone post the relevent wikipedia policies and guideline for this kind of thing - they're too hard to find for anyone who doesn't already know where to look. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Ask and you will receive. There are no specific guidelines for airplanes, so the general guidelines apply; see Misplaced Pages:Notability. The crash was clearly an "event", for which there are specific guidelines; see Misplaced Pages:Notability (events). HairyWombat 17:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Support merge At this point, most of the airplane article is just a replica of this article. If it does become notable later, with more specific coverage by the NTSB and others, then an article can be spun out on it. But, for now, it should be a section in this article. Silverseren 16:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• • The plane like the other planes that were in the race already have, needs its own page. If you were involved in aviation or a pilot you would agree, unconditionally. WPPilot 16:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC) User talk:WPPilot

A question: if this plane hadn't crashed, would it be important enough to have its own Misplaced Pages article? Being "heavily modified" is certainly not sufficient; if that were the case then we'd need thousands (millions?) of articles on various cars/planes/boats/houses that had been so. (Do note that the airplane's article was only created after the crash.)

If the primary (or even only) justification for giving this plane its own article is the crash, then the plane should be described in the context of the crash's article, and does not need its own. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• • The plane was a modified P-51. The modifications were so significant that it became its own "Type" of airplane under the experimental class. Some of the modifications included reduction of the wings and controls. This is one of the most significant aviation racing event that has taken place in over a hundred years of flight. The data regarding the plane, the modifications and its "history" will continue to grow as other editors contribute. That would overwhelm this story in no time whatsoever and imho it already has. This story has a few short lines and the story about the plane is now providing reference links to the reporting media, with background about the plane. WPPilot 16:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment In the past 24 hours, articles have been created for 2011 Reno Air Races crash, The Galloping Ghost airplane and Jimmy Leeward. There is no joined up thinking here, and too much has been written with one eye on the rolling TV news coverage. WP:RECENTISM needs to be taken into account.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Support merge I don't see any need for additional articles that can fill a single paragraph in this article. It may have been interesting that the aircraft was modified, but that does not mean it warrants its own article. For example, look at the 1973 Paris Air Show crash. There is an article for the kind of aircraft the prototype Tupolev Tu-144 was built as, but they don't have a page for every conceivable matter relevant for the subject. DarthBotto _talk•cont 18:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Crashed into spectators?

Is this confirmed? I've watched six different videos and it appears that the aircraft impacted the terrain near the spectators. Flying debris and shrapnel appears to have caused the injuries.

--98.154.160.152 (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• Start-Class aviation articles
• Start-Class Aviation accident articles
• Aviation accident task force articles
• WikiProject Aviation articles
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Nevada