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If you are an admin and are here about a block I have made, feel free to lift or amend if the situation has changed, miscreant has repented, consensus is now against block etc. Please let me know you have done so. Thanks.

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User:Saygi1

This editor came off the block for edit warring on Lotfi A. Zadeh and immediately started back in doing what you blocked him for. He's using a You Tube video as a source], which doesn't say what he thinks it says, and does not support the addition to the article he wishes to make. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I have counselled him with a cluebat. I think you could actually use that source (or this source in the personal life and beliefs section (if you weren't trying to make a point about how Azerbaijani he is), and if there is a source, I feel the article could usefully list all the languages that he speaks, as this source makes reference to his multilinguality as something that led him to fuzzy logic. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, if properly sourced, that would be a good addition to the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the other source, which did indeed have a more moderate version of what Saygi1 has been attempting to add to the article, that Zadeh's 3 years of schooling in Baku "had a significant and long-lasting influence on my thinking and my way of looking at things." I've added that to the article using that source, along with another pull quote. I'll let Saygi1 know on his his talk page, but I doubt it's going to do much good, as he's appraently firmly convinced that I'm a POV warrior. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

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You were quoted

An admin cited this as his evidence in a recent arbitration case. I thought he might've misinterpreted your verdict in our little discussion in the past, but maybe I am wrong. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I said that Lhvis did not warrant a block, but I certainly recall saying I believed Tenmei did warrant one...no, wait. I did say that I believed you shouldn't block a user just for a single instance failure to discuss. So that would imply that Lhvis shouldn't have been blocked. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the concept of interest was really the matter about whether or not was in Tenmei a sanctionable position based on the said admin's special BRD rules. Based on your posts , I interpreted that as a "Yes, Tenmei should theoretically blocked based on those rules but no, those BRD=ban rules should not have been used in the first place". For reference, here's what I wrote about you in the Evidence page (in less than 5 words) ).

It would be nice if this can be sorted out, since I am now accused of lying, edit-warring, and being all sorts of nasty stuff for somehow allegedly misinterpreting your intent. I'd apologize to you if I've somehow misunderstood your words. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Just to add... unlike what was alleged about me, I did not ever contest Lvhis' block. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Anyhow, I am not asking you to write a block in the ArbCom case. I suppose I am simply looking for boolean answer for two questions:

1. Did I misinterpret your message?
2. Did the person in the diff misinterpret your message?

I understand you recused and thus would probably prefer not to get involved, but I thought it'd be nice to get a small bit of clarification from you. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:13, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Bob, it may not be appropriate to ask/push Elen to repeat her opinion at current moment. Particularly the Arb/Case/SI/Workshop page has been now heated up so much since Qwyrxian et al posted his or their proposed remedies for banning other parties but lacking proposed principles. I still believe Elen's that opinion is very correct, and Magog's interpretation in his "Evidence" is incorrect. This is not just because I might be benefited from that, also because it is for justice and fairness that should be proved by this free Misplaced Pages project. I mentioned in my response that Magog used 2 standards, one tough and one soft, in the case in question. If I did not misinterpret Elen's this points, she meant it would be better not to apply that sanction only in a mechanistic way. By my understanding, if there is some narrow flexible range or room for that sanction (i.e. tiny tougher ↔ tiny softer), the edit quality could be considered as a factor. In this case, Magog also admitted that "Lvhis was a better faith contributor" that was 100% compatible with Elen "believed Lvhis was making a good faith contribution, while Tenmei was not" . Therefore, my edit should have been treated as "B" → "B" → "B", neither "R" nor violating "BRD", Tenmei's edit should have been treated as violating "BRD" by breaking the ongoing "D", making "BRD" → "BRD". Elen's opinion that I should have not been blocked while Tenmei should have been blocked makes perfect sense here. The mistake Magog made is he treated the two edits totally in an opposite way. That is why Elen pointed he made two mistakes. Although Magog pointed a truth that I am not an en-N, I am confident I have construed Elen's opinion correctly by reading that whole section several times, and also confident that Elen's opinion is correct and more fit WP's spirit and policies. Even conceding a bit, using very mechanistic way, I am certain Magog still has at least made one mistake there but not as he insisted he did both correct. --Lvhis (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Poor Elen, our harassment of her has been relentless :). What's an en-N? --Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Native speakers of English language. --Lvhis (talk) 00:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Someone35

Sorry for not being too responsive on that request - I was traveling and my internet access was rather sporadic. I probably would agree to that reduction conditioned on the acceptance of a mentorship - so I'm not really questioning your action on the merits, but I just don't see a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to modify it in that thread. Mind explaining your thoughts on that one? T. Canens (talk) 23:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd say that most of the time your strategy on bans is totally valid, as the edit warriors seem to wait out bans and then start again. Also, when he first made the appeal, Someone35 was still saying "it wasn't me, I didn't do it", which doesn't inspire confidence. He has since modified his stance (unfortunately he's done it by modifying his statements without using strike/insert markers, so it doesn't jump out). In the course of the discussion, Demiumrge1000, Wikifan12345, Cptnono, and Malik Shabazz all expressed the view that a lesser sanction with mentorship was preferable with this young editor who might thus be instructed in more profitable ways, and two of them offered to mentor him/her. Zero0000 only expressed concern that Someone35 seemed not to have recognised the problem, saying he could make no decision until he did so. Russavia argued that Someone35 should have had a longer block for incivility to start with, and there was a general sense that other editors were not convinced in this particular case that the edits concerned were an IP issue as much as a civility issue. There also seemed no enthusiasm for imposing your sanction strategy on a relatively new editor and first time offender, who also did contribute constructively. So I did think there was an active consensus of editors, none were involved in the usual POV warrior type dispute with him, and I noted that Nableezy had accepted his apology for the actions which had resulted in the original block. I do apologise though - I didn't realise you were unavailable or I would have waited longer for you to respond to the proposal. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah I see. You take a broader view of the word "uninvolved" than I do. No worries. T. Canens (talk) 14:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

J3mm0

After making a comment/vote in an AfD, which is here , I felt it would be reasonable to leave a note on the sponsoring author's talk page, reiterating that the issue was not personal and encouraging further WP participation. (The editor seemed to be quite passionate, so some encouragement might help?) The account has been indefinitely (i.e. long term) blocked because there is "reason to believe more than one person is operating this account." I was aware that sockpuppetry is actively discouraged on Misplaced Pages. The reason for blocking here tho is a little different than that. While I do not agree with multiple people using an account either, I am curious as to whether multiple users on an account are actually against stated policy, and if so, whether you could direct my reading so that I have a better understanding. Thank you for taking the time to give me some insight and learning. FeatherPluma (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:ROLE is the policy that you are looking for. In this editor's case, I think we've dealt with the multiple account problem. I do believe this is a mother with a son who suffered a brain injury while serving his country, and if editing for him were the only problem, I would be prepared to lift the block as she has said that she will stop adding his edits as well as her own (nothing to stop him creating his own account - or if his injury is such that he needs assistance, his carer actually doing the typing for him).

The reason this editor is still blocked is that she has stated clearly and often that the only reason she wants to edit Misplaced Pages is to create a positive article on Julien Modica. There is obviously a raft of problems with this, and so far efforts to explain this have not been well received. You can see from the talkpage that the editor does not accept that the issue is around our notability standards - for example, her comments that we have articles on cancer survivors such as Christina Applegate who is notable for more than just being a cancer survivor. I liked your comments at the AfD about applying the criteria equally. You might have more success in discussing this with the editor. If she can see what the problem has been with her editing and approach, a further unblock appeal may well be successful. If you take it up, I wish you success. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the pointer to the specific policy. A sense of fair play drew me toward seeking additional context, and the intertwined considerations, while sad, fully assuage my intrigue. FeatherPluma (talk) 21:18, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Could you issue a ruling...

Does this mean that I can't ask Pmanderson a question that might pertain to a point of style? I have in the past, but will avoid doing so if it will get him in trouble. Or, for instance, if we were having a discussion at the Classical Greece and Rome project about whether it should be "ancient Rome" or "Ancient Rome," he wouldn't be allowed to contribute to that discussion? Even if someone said "I'd like to have Pmanderson's opinion on this?" (which I've said in the past as well). Cynwolfe (talk) 21:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately. The restriction is quite widely construed, and applies anywhere on the project. In this early stage of the ban he would be well advised to avoid all discussion of this type, because it is a WP:MOS/technical use of English related discussion, and he doesn't want to be seen as pushing the boundaries. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks, ma'am. I appreciate your balanced approach to this longstanding community issue. I have to say one thing out of loyalty and fairness: I consider this a serious loss to the Greece & Rome project, where PMA's experience and knowledge are one of our greatest assets. I assume, however, he can still answer questions about content? And if I wanted his opinion on what to name a new article, would this be considered within the topic ban? And you seem to emphasize "English related," meaning he could address, say, questions about Latin? I'm really not trying to make a point; I would want to support behavior that allowed him to remain on WP, but I'm … I'm … well, OK, I'm plenty pissed that his opinion can't be asked even where it's welcome. (Not pissed at you; you're doing a needed job.) I suppose it's no secret that I would rather deal with a hundred PMAs than one politely passive-aggressive POV-pushing ignoramus. I shall now close my eyes and go about my business, meek, neutered, and Borg-like. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The restriction is on discussions to do with WP:MOS and the technical use of English (given that this whole thing started with a stupid argument about using an accent in the word crepe]]. Discussion of content is fine. If he would master the art of walking away from certain arguments, he would do a lot better, but that's rather a counsel of perfection. As things stand, those he has pissed off would quickly pick up on any involvement in the discussion you mentioned. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I wasn't paying a lot of attention to this, and then when it floated into my field of vision, I realized I would need to modify my interactions. Again, please understand that none of my negative comments are directed at you. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

No worries. I imagine it's rather like the feeling when your striker ends up with a three match suspension after a second yellow card for some piddling incident. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see my comment in the ANI discussion. I wonder if you explicitly intended your closure of PMA's ban discussion to leave him free to participate in article title and move discussions. There was a relevant part of the discussion you closed that had 13 supports for explicitly excluding him from such discussions, but I'm not sure if you felt that other parts of the thread took away from any clear consensus on that point. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 21:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ed. I did see that there were comments about banning him entirely from title/move discussions, but the discussion kept expanding and contracting the terms of a proposed ban, and as all the recent problems had got some connection to MOS or use of English, I thought the ban imposed would be enough. I didn't intend to ban him from discussing whether it should be called Shiloh or Pittsburg Landings, but if he gets into trouble he's likely to either hit the technical english language restriction, or the stricture that if he gets into trouble he's likely to be banned from the project. If he has any sense, he'll stay away from trouble, if he doesn't, I don't think anyone is going to have sympathy. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Ping

Ping, v.r. Cla68 (talk) 12:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Recused due to previous disagreements with Cirt. For some reason I'm not shown as such, I'll have to get that changed. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Another sockpuppet of that person with a racist username

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Sambokim_again seems to have gotten lost in the AN/I shuffle--Crossmr (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I've two weeked the IP, although I assume he was at his granny's for lunch today as he hasn't reverted you. Let me know if you get more rogue edits and I'll semi the articles for a couple of weeks. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The season starts this Saturday, so I expect it'll pick up, especially if Ric does anything good.--Crossmr (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

124.207.64.6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) my kingdom for a sambo sized canon I could fire him out of..I'd say a semi on the articles that IP edited.--Crossmr (talk) 22:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Some slightly racist people I know, use "sambo" as a humorously racist term. (More in patronising affection than as a slur.) That was not anyone's intent of course, but best to be careful with how one uses the word. I was going to arbitrarily retitle this section "Another sockpuppet of User:Whatever" but I wasn't sure if that was appropriate or accurate or what.

Sorry to be the latest reincarnation of the politically correct police; it's actually quite possible that the people I know who use the word this way are the only people who do so. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

It's the name he goes by, nothing inappropriate about that.--Crossmr (talk) 04:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, a dictionary describes it as "Disparaging and Offensive". If someone used "the N word" as part of their username, I'm not sure you'd use that in the same way. Or at least - I'd hope not. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Cerejota  21:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Cerejota  22:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Cerejota  23:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

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citation bots

Elen, is there no way to keep citation bots off an article? I'm actively working on Sexuality in ancient Rome, and I do not want consolidated footnotes till I'm done (which should be soon, since I'm quite sick of the subject and think I only have one more section to go). I find these "abcd" footnotes very confusing, as how do I know which letter to click on to return to my point in the text? I thought I'd added a template that would keep this thing away ({{bots|deny=citation bot}}). And when I look in the edit history, I don't even see where it happened so I can revert it. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:31, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't see where the bot did it either. Are you sure it was citation bot? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Userfy deleted article

Hello, since you've restored a couple of articles on request that were involved in the Marshallsumpter deletion, could you restore a copy of transcription start site to my userspace please? I was going to start from scratch but the article has been vouched for as containing useful information. Many thanks Jebus989 09:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It's at User:Jebus989/Transcription start site. Have fun. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

After looking at it, I should have stuck to my guns and started anew, it's pure Marshallsumpter: copyvios, CWW and non-sensical. Cheers for doing it anyway Jebus989 21:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Do you want me to bin it again? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah please, I stuck a db-u1 on it but if that's not proper procedure for a restored article feel free to do it the right way Jebus989 21:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

America's Next Top Model, Cycle 17

Hi,

Can you have a look at semi-prot for this page, perhaps for the duration of the show (I did make the request at WP:RPP last night but looks like it has a back log.)I am WP:3RR'ed out on the page now. Mtking 22:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I've given it another month. When does he show end? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, not sure exactly when it ends, but lets hope that the IP's find something else to entertain themselves over the next month and any further extension to the protection is not needed. Mtking 23:18, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

question

Why did you delete f'n boot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.255.229.243 (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

If the creator blanks the page, it is usually deleted automatically. The page I could see (behind the one that was blanked) was a rant about censorship. Was the original actually about the organisation? If so, read WP:GNG and WP:ORG to see if the organisation meets those criteria. If it does, rewrite the article (you'll need to remember to log in first) including references to any secondary sources (newspaper or magazine articles perhaps) that would support its notability in Misplaced Pages terms.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

A cookie for you!

Hello Elen of the Roads! I hope you enjoy this cookie as an amicable greeting from a fellow Wikipedian, SwisterTwister talk 05:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Typo?

Hi, I think as part of the reverts and protection settings for Jesus, you may have totally unprotected the page - perhaps via a typo.

Up to a day ago, the page was semi-protected so IPs could not edit it, evidenced by the fact that there were no ClueBot actions there for a long time. Now, IPs have come to vandalize, and ClueBot is reverting some cases, we have to revert some other cases.

I think it may be a good idea to let the protection go back to where it was a few days ago, because it had brought stability to the page and you probably did not intend to change it anyway. Your help will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 07:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I did. Hopefully have put it right now. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. History2007 (talk) 13:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

wikiblicky blah

Thanks for your message. I did understand what you meant but this guy just wasn't getting it. He still may not, but at this point we have tried our best. Unless i see evidence of his actually reading our policies, after this my approach will be, DNFTT. But thanks for stepping in too. he needs to know that this is not just one person's opinion! Slrubenstein | Talk 22:07, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Ellen I am not good with warning templates but could you plkease look at my most recent exchange with User talk:Wikiglobaleditor? I want to make sure he is properly warned about talk page behavior so if he uses article talk pages to soap box he can be sanctioned - without a clear and approprioate warning that wouldn't be fair. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 10:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

After his latest response to you I have upped the block to indefinite. I don't want him editing again unless/until I'm sure he understands our policies. If you think that's a bit much, I've asked for a review at WP:AN ] Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I trust your judgment. I hope that we have made the reasons clear, in case he appeals. Let me know if there is anything more to be done. Best, Slrubenstein | Talk 12:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

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Northamerica1000

If you have a moment, could you take a look at the contributions and talk page history of User:Northamerica1000? I'm afraid a situation is brewing there but I'm not sure how it should be dealt with, so I thought to ask you for some advice. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

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If you are so inclined...

coul you take a look at this edit of mine? I removed a paragraph from the article Azerbaijani American which speculated about what the next Census results would show about the number of Azerbaijani Americans in the U.S. Although the paragraph was heavily referenced, the majority of putatively factual citations were from Azerbaijani sources, which I do not think are particularly reliable in this instance, plus there were general sources about undercounting in the census, with no mention of application to Azerbaijanis, and other non-reliable cites. (For instance, a proclamation from the Brooklyn Borough President which mentions 400,000 Azerbaijanis in the U.S. Needless to say, the Boro Prez simply signs what is written on the proclamation by someone else, usually a publicist, and in any case is not a reliable source abour ethnic populations of the U.S.) In total, the entire paragraph failed WP:CRYSTAL because it attempted to predict what the Census will say, when we can simply wait for the results and it will say what it says.

In any case, that was my reasoning, and, since the material was added by User:Saygi1, with whom I had a recent dispute, I thought you might be good enough to take a look at what I did to see if I went too far, prejudiced (perhaps) by my previous interactions with him. If you'd rather not, that's fine, no problem, but thanks for considering it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

BMK, removing a large paragraph with some 18 (!) reliable and verifiable sources cruicial to the article about an ethno-national group of people in U.S., by citing an exaggerated concern of "speculated about what the next Census results would show" is an overkill, don't you think? I know you have a tendency to remove sourced information, but previously it was only 2-4 sources, now it's 18.

• For starters, you can simply re-phrase any sentence you feel "speculated", instead of just reverting, like you've done in the past on another article I edited (hmm, I wonder if you are targeting me? On the other hand, you would never do smth like, right?). In any case, your feeling that your previous interaction with me makes you "perhaps" prejudiced is (perhaps) an astute observation.
• Secondly, there is no "attempt to predict what the Census will say" as you say - all the article says is: "The 2010 U.S. Census results, to be released by the end of 2011, are expected to reflect a more current official estimate on the number of Azerbaijanis in the U.S." How's that a "prediction"? Naturally, a 2010 Census would give figures up till 2010 - more current than 2000 figures. How's that an "attempt to predict"? Although, Census results can only show an increase as is clear from the cited facts, such as annual statistics of naturalizations between 2000 and 2010 (the years of Census) and the fact of natural growth (more births over deaths) typicaly for this community. However, since it can border on WP:OR, it can be re-phrased, and I will do so to alleviate any possible concerns. Again, you could have simply re-phrased just one sentence to make a good-faith edit instead of removing a huge block of sourced material like you did.
• Thirdly, there are virtually no "Azerbaijani sources" cited - some 95% of sources are American newspapers, news sources and other U.S. government, media and NGO sources. Only one source is from an Azerbaijani source - an article by Dr. Paul Goble, an American citizen, ex-CIA analyst and RFE/RL high ranking executive, that was published by the Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy.
• Yet even if there would have been many Azerbaijani sources - that's OK, too, as the article is about Azerbaijani-Americans, and naturally, Azerbaijanis would research that topic most. Sounds quite logical, don't you think? I think it's natural that Italian Coppolla makes films about Italian culture, Jewish Spielberg about Jews, Scottish Gibson about Scotts, Nobel-prize winning Turkish author Pamuk writing about Turks, Russian authors writing about Russians, Arab-American Dr. Zogby famous for his research on Arab-American community, etc.
• If by "Azerbaijani sources" you mean the fact that Azerbaijani-Americans were interviewed or published by the U.S. newspapers and sources - so? Is that prohibited? Who else should give interviews, or know more about their own community - the people themselves, or someone else? How's a statement from John Doe about Azerbaijani-Americans any more reliable than a statement from a Azer (a typical Azerbaijani name) about Irish-Americans or a statement from Hans (a Germanic name) about African-Americans, or Jose (Hispanic name) about Chinese-Americans?
• Fourth, the claim "general sources about undercounting in the census, with no mention of application to Azerbaijanis" and that being "non-reliable cites" is really a wild overstretch. All these sources clearly state that Census undercount affects primarily minorities (as well as poor, which many immigrant minorities are in the their first 10 years of life, before earning more income than average citizens, and children, which affects everyone). None of the census undercount studies need to cite all the ethnic groups ("minorities") by name in order to be valid sources for citing in Misplaced Pages. It's enough that they all concur that minorities, especially immigrant minorities, are particularly affected by this, and then proceed to cite several cases, such as undercount of Brooklyn, NY residents (where a large number of Azerbaijani-Americans lives), or undercount of Iranian-American community (which is very close to the Azerbaijani-American community as is proven by multiple sources).
• Fifth, you don't know what "Boro Prez" does or signs. If you visit all their websites or call them, you will find out that 1) they don't always issue such documents, and can refuse, and do refuse all the time; 2) they do their own research and verification. But more importantly, they, being a government source, are a reliable and verifiable source. And we have not one, but three (3) such government proclamations. It's just as reliable as a census, for example, since we already have shown that census routinely undercounts, and then shown the State Department and the White House ignore the US Census figures and cite much larger figures for the, for example, Iranian-American community (e.g., if the 2000 census reports smth like 338,000 Iranian-Americans, then White House and State Department say there are 2 million Iranian-Americans). --Saygi1 (talk) 22:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

re-phrased some of the sentences in the new version, along with restoring the paragraph with 18 valuable, reliable and verifiable sources that BMK blanked out . Also, per the Census undercount discussion, note that I added 3 new US Census Bureau studies on the undercount as well as one study of the effect of undercount on the US Congress and one testimony in the US Senate about the Census 2010. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Removed again per WP:CRYSTAL. Please read this policy, which you do not seem to understand. Misplaced Pages is not for speculation about what might happen. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

You did not remove it per WP:CRYSTAL as you try to claim again, as there are no speculations there, and you could have easily discussed it with specifics on the Talk page and then re-worded it. You removed it per WP:REVENGE and WP:VINDICTIVE PERSON, pure and simple. You removed, once again, a lot of sourced information that several other editors and admins have not removed over the past month - and they can read and think, too. So please, stop your malicious editing, especially since you admit on your own talk page that "the topic area is so far afield from my natural haunting grounds", i.e,. a WP:LACK. Add to that WP:BATHWATER and WP:RUSH although they are about deleting the whole article, and in this case, half of the article. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Follow up on Saygi1's behavior

I'm making this comment here, as you were the administrator who has previously dealt with the disruptions of Saygi1. Please note that this user, Saygi1, continues disrupt articles that in the Azerbaijan topical area, despite the fact that this area is subject to several ArbCom cases. He continues to edit-war and remove a dispute tag from a disputed article, without a consensus on the talk page . He's unilaterally removed the dispute tag 5 times now, and despite objections several other editors on the talk page. I've raised the issue of Saygi1's disruptive conduct here and here, and as you can see, those two Wikipedians also agree that there is an issue with Saygi1's conduct and behavior in general. A WP:SPA by the name of User:5aul is also making blind sweeping reverts on the same page, and removing the tag, without as much as an edit summary. I suspect the latter of being the meatpuppet of Saygi1 who himself is most likely an ArbCom sanction-evading sock-puppet/reincarnation of an old user, given the fact that he was editing at an expert level of familiarity with complicated Misplaced Pages codes from the get-go, and that this topical area was subject of several ArbCom, and most regular Azerbaijani editors have bee subject to such sanctions. Kurdo777 (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Kurdo777, I've objected to your edit warring and malicious editing numerous times as well, such as here and here . So I've complained plenty about your bad faith and groundless placement of a tag that has been disputed and reverted by other editors. You never substantiated your disruptive actions. You talk much about some meat- sock-puppets, are you one yourself? Because an editor who collaborates with you has been coming and helping to revert the page on your behalf before. I don't know what so impressed you in my "expert level of familiarity with complicated Misplaced Pages codes" - I am greatly honored, but what codes are complicated? I know far more complicated codes than Misplaced Pages, so wouldn't consider it "complicated". As of Arbcom - I've checked it, it's about Azerbaijan and Armenia, two nation-states and the pages and articles that are directly related to them. The article Azerbaijani American is not related to it any more than Armenian American. Also, when I placed the dispute tag on Iranian American, and substantiated it in the talk page, your friends removed it still. In general, please substantiate your edits and your complaints - don't just throw everything you have hoping it will "stick". And why are you on this page anyway? --Saygi1 (talk) 01:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The ArbCom in question covers ALL TOPICS THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with Azerbaijan, which includes Azerbaijani-Americans. And for the record, you've just acknowledged that you're aware of the ArbCom in question, which should save the admins the trouble of warning you about it, before applying the sanctions to you. Kurdo777 (talk) 01:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Kurdo777, I've become aware of it from your constant reminders of it on all the boards, and no, it doesn't apply in this case, as nowhere in the ArbCom does it say that. The articles have to be directly and completely relevant to both Azerbaijan and Armenia, and in this case, it is neither directly relevant to Armenia, nor is it really that directly related to Azerbaijan. Otherwise, one can claim that pages about IMF, WorldBank, FIFA, and anything else that has Azerbaijan's membership (and incidentally, Armenia's) should all be part of the ArbCom, and that's just not the case. By the way, I hope you understand that your edits of anything directly relevant to Azerbaijan and Armenia falls under the Arbcom? --Saygi1 (talk) 00:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Saygi1 - you are very evidently trying to advance some POV related to Azerbaijan, Azerbaijanis, or similar. AS Kurdo777 points out, you are in danger of falling foul of these sanctions. I recommend that you be very careful to edit neutrally and explain openly any point you are trying to make, to avoid being misconstrued. Elen on the Roads:talk to me 21:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Elen on the Roads, but user Kurdo777 has shown his POV and true intentions on several other pages, which I brought to his and admins' attention. I don't know what POV related to Azerbaijan/Azerbaijanis or similar have I ever advanced on the page Azerbaijani American aside from expanding and improving the article with a huge number of verifiable sources (95% US sources, by the way). Unfortunately, I have to say that Kurdo777 is editing in bad faith, and has never once contributed anything positive to the article in question, as he seems to be interested in letting that article rot and just edit war and disrupt (I've said it to him many times, and he never denied it, by the way). --Saygi1 (talk) 00:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Media copyright question - Romania

Hi Elen. Would you take a look at Misplaced Pages:Media_copyright_questions#Radio3net? There's a concern that the Romanian government are breaking copyright laws by hosting albums on their radio station. SilkTork 16:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Saygi1 again

Saygi1 totally ignored you warning. He is now taken his disruption to a whole new level, and has engaged in WP:Hounding, following me and Takabeg with whom he has a dispute on Azerbaijani-Americans, to pages he's never edited before, making reverts and borderline personal attacks in edit summaries/talk page comments. How long before this kind of obvious WP:Disruption by a POV-pushing WP:SPA is dealt with? Do you really think this user was a new user when he signed up? please just take a look at his very first five edits. He was quite familiar with complicated wiki codes, like making redirects, within an hour of registering to Misplaced Pages. Not to mention that he umped into a hot spot to edit-war right after creating this username? And he's been making reverts and causing disruption all over Wiki ever since. Doesn't this raise any red flags? Where does the WP:AGF end and common sense begin? Kurdo777 (talk) 03:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Kurdo777, since you are making many reverts and undiscussed, groundless removals of information per your POV view in Azerbaijani American, all I had to do was look at your list of last "contributions" (as Misplaced Pages easily allows and encourages to do) and see this pattern repeat again and again on other Azerbaijani-related articles. Shows that you are onto something. It's not "hounding" as I haven't followed or reverted all your edits, only a small fraction. Every single restoration of the article back to its normal state is because you failed to substantiate your bad faith edits that run counter to evidence and facts. --Saygi1 (talk) 21:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

(talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

WalkerThrough

Hi Elen, unfortunately I've deleted everything; the only interesting parts were those I posted on the talkpage though. The rest was a long-winded explanation of how he'd tried his best to edit along the lines of policy (which of course he hadn't). To be fair, he did offer at one point to suggest that if he was unblocked he'd post all his suggested changes on talk pages, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 06:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I can forward some which I received. If they are of any interest. I'm travelling, now in Spain, and am not in a position to evaluate. Lugnad (talk) 11:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Lugnad, would appreciate that. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

"Talk:Jesus Fruitloop"

He's actually been posting all kinda of ridiculous crap in various articles for a half-decade. I've created an entry at Misplaced Pages:Edit filter/Requested which may make it harder for him to post if approved. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Lets hope it gets picked up. He posted an unblock request for one of the IPs at unblock-l that was totally off the wall as well - it started "'Elen of the Roads is rather naive as there is a simple way to determine what the fictitious Jesus really is.' Jesus is a Jew. Jews attend Saturday Synagogues. Synagogues are the Synagogues of Satan as per Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 so Jesus is the son of Satan. Period, as you say." and went on for three pages. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

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Request

Hi Elen. I have recently filed an RfC on Kiefer.Wolfowitz. I would prefer it to be a productive RfC - and as such I would like to adhere to one of his requests that you confirm there is a basis for dispute. I am not asking you to endorse or oppose the summary, though you are welcome to, I would just like you to confirm that this not a frivolous RfC. Worm · (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I've endorsed. I think it's a shame that it's come to this, but I think it might help him to take it seriously. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Elen, my priority was that Kiefer might actually be a willing participant, and make the whole thing actually a worthwhile use of the community's (and my) time. Seems he may not be, in which case the RfC will proceed without him, but at least I've tried. Worm · (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

See my note on his talkpage. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I saw the note and was very disappointed by it: "it never comes out well for the editor who attempts to ignore the issue". A sitting arbitrator should know better than to use such intimidating language to coerce another editor. Geometry guy 22:13, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Geometry Guy, I was merely repeating my advice given to Kiefer.Wolfowitz previously, when I advised him to engage with a more informal dispute resolution process. As predicted then, his attempts to ignore/stonewall the issue did not turn out well - look, here we are at a RfC. Kiefer's bizarre argument (made two months ago as well ) that he cannot attend to the RfC for two months, but intends to continue to edit freely during that time, are not going to sit well with anyone. It's certainly not a threat from me, as I won't be making any kind of decision relating to the RfC, but in my experience an individual who ignores dispute resolution processes and persists in the problematic behaviour (important point - if the subject chooses not to attend in person, but takes the message away, then of course that may stop further problems) tends to find themselves summarily blocked or banned at WP:ANI. Kiefer needs to see dispute resolution in a different light - he's not dealing with editors who are rabidly against him (Worm and I thought well of him until this blew up in August) and if he engaged with the community, it could probably be all hashed out to every one's benefit. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so it is a second offence then! I can likewise guarantee that not a single Arbcom subcommittee will get done over for 15 bob a week. That's not a threat, but an offer of help and support :)

I do not doubt your sincerely belief that you are advising Kiefer in his best interests, but that does not make coercion acceptable. Furthermore, in your reply, you not only presume to know what is best for Kiefer, but also that you know what may or may not "sit well" with the entire editing community! That diverse community ranges from editors for whom Misplaced Pages is an online roleplaying game to those who actually come here to contribute significant content. It is the latter kind of editor that has my respect, and if an editor like Kiefer chooses to spend his volunteered leisure time improving articles rather than engaging in playground politics, then that sits very well with me. Any negative consequences of such a choice reflect badly on Misplaced Pages, not the editor. Geometry guy 18:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, if he decided to ignore the entire proceedings but stuck to editing articles rather than fussing about what other editors have on their userpages and stopped taking the piss out of people's usernames when it clearly annoys them, half of this would go away immediately. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And the other half? Geometry guy 19:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The other half appears to do with his reaction to political items.... Always a tricky subject for anyone. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

But an important one, and a subject that Misplaced Pages is ill-equipped to handle. It cannot even handle internal disagreement about whether minors should be admins. That aside, thank you for your concise summary of the editing issues you feel KW needs to address. However, no dispute is entirely one-sided: can you also summarize the issues you believe other editors need to address to restore normal working relations? Geometry guy 20:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe in Worm's case he was genuinely nonplussed that his attempts to resolve things amicably got the reception that they did - Kiefer basically treated him like a junior tick and told him to run along and stop bothering his elders and betters. Worm waited to see if he would stop the behaviour that he perceived as a problem, and raised this when he was of the opinion that he hadn't. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen, you have not answered the question. I am not asking you to sympathize with Worm here. Maybe he was an innocent bystander who got caught up in events, and did the right thing.

Instead, I am asking for your concise summary of issues that other editors need to address (Demiurge, for example?). If you believe that no other editor has even been at minor fault at any stage and that no other editor has anything to learn from the dispute, then you are at liberty to state that view. Geometry guy 21:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Geometry guy, this RfC has a large component about how Kiefer behaves towards other people who are not the filing parties. I appreciate that there may be an element of 'when did you stop beating your wife here', but if he wasn't obsessing over the age of certain users and making accusations without supporting evidence, then there would be no reason for the filing parties to interact with him over these issues. If he hadn't behaved like such an arrogant sod (just going on what he typed into the edit box - I've no idea what he's actually like as I've never met him) this could have been sorted out long ago. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Blimey Elen, you must be in politics, as you still haven't answered the question. I didn't say "filing parties". In any dispute it takes two to tango, but rather than showing leadership in dispute resolution, you take a one-sided position, make pointless arguments using counterfactuals, and refer to one party as (oh lets be very careful here per WP:NPA "behaving like") an arrogant sod. Still very disappointed, Geometry guy 21:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you have an odd view of what an RfC/U is for..... Mismatch of expectations perhaps. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I think RfC/U is a structurally flawed process, and my view of it is far more cynical than you imagine. It sets up an asymmetrical relation between involved parties, putting one user on the defensive, while encouraging others to justify the need for the RfC/U by prosecuting their case vigorously. I have no expectations of such a process and would not recommend anyone who does not have a strong masochistic streak to subject themselves to it.

However, you refer to RfC/U as "dispute resolution" and as something beneficial that KW should be "encouraged to engage with" in his own "best interests". So is an RfC/U for dispute resolution, or dispute escalation? Is it a way to help parties reach mutually understanding and agreement with the help of impartial outside observers, or is it a village stocks for slinging mud at arrogant sods and a tick-box on the road to arbitration? Those who claim to believe in the former should at the very least act like they do. In this respect, I find Worm TT's approach to the RfC more admirable and convincing than your own. Geometry guy 22:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps slightly off-topic here: I couldn't help notice that Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics has a notice about the RfCU on KW, even though the dispute involves no mathematics articles or topics. WikiProjects being used as WP:CANVASSing venues is apparently a concern that has been raised for instance in the MfD of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conservatism, where the Math project was given as a beyond-reproach example of sorts. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 13:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is off-topic to the extent that I was brought to the RfC via KWs talk page, not because of any WikiProject notice. My contact with him is primary as a reviewer who occasionally reviews technical content: KW currently has an article at FAC which I extensively and critically reviewed over the weekend. Geometry guy 22:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

He posted one at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Economics (pretty nearly just as unrelated) as well. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The trouble is that he doesn't fall out with the Maths people - and there isn't a location suitable to advertising to where the problem is Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)...and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Statistics. The vast majority of early contributors are related to these three projects. I did consider mentioning it at the time, but the point of the RfC was to see the community's point of view. David Eppstein's comment, whilst acting as a lighting rod, is a very fair comment - we don't want a lynching here and if Kiefer feels more willing to discuss the issues knowing that a lynching isn't the purpose, then I think it will be a positive outcome.

Having said that, Kiefer's latest response doesn't fill me with confidence. I understand he's travelling for a week, so perhaps he'll have more time to address the concerns after that period... Worm · (talk) 14:02, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I too have noticed that it was mostly editors from those two projects who comment under the view: "I have no opinion on the political disputes described here, but Wolfowitz has performed very valuable service to the encyclopedia bringing mathematical articles ". Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Socialism was not notified however, even though a large part of the dispute was on the pages Socialist Party USA. So it does appear that WP:CANVASSing rules were deliberately bent or ignored by KW. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I would not consider it canvassing to put a neutral notice there, if editors from that project were involved. On another note, I have removed the outrageous sentence from his last comment - I know he probably thought it was funny, but it doesn't meet any definition of humorous in these circumstances. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

A few responses. First, I should be informed of discussions like this. Second, some of this discussion would be better at the RfC or its talk page.

Third, I do not "obsess about ages", but I am concerned about minors as administrators, and I consistently take the most paternalistic/responsible (your choice) position in discussions about vulnerable persons. Tough that some dislike this position.

Fourth, the articles related to American socialism were in terrible states when I found them, although they had been worse 5 years ago, and so the relevant projects were immediately suspect as dysfunctional/nonfunctional. Those projects have been useless when I have asked for help related to e.g. Tom Kahn; our brothers and sisters at the LGBT project provided useful feedback for it. I have no reason to expect that an RfC notice at the non--high-functional projects would generate feedback, let alone competent feedback.

Finally, even here, at at ArbCom members talk page, and at an RfC, "Have mörser, will travel" violates WP:AGF with impunity. At least, he has been ignored.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Help?

• Hi Elen, thanks for the speedy on File:P15ADestroyer.JPG, Also, would you mind giving us a hand at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Chanakyathegreat? --Dave 15:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Result was unexpected. I've blocked the other Chanakyathegreat sock, but I don't know who the other guy is...other than fishy. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:55, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• Like a fishpuppet? Thanks again, that made my day. :) --Dave 18:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

LOL :) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• Facepalm ... Wow~! More dead chickens been dug up... time to block them all~? --Dave 23:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Sock again?

• Shifty333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Elen, we have another highly possible case on WP:ANI#User:Shifty333 and User talk:Baseball Bugs#Pagemove dispute, your CU skills to provide an X-ray vision will surely be very useful in this case. Thanks and best. --Dave 12:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like AGK got it while I was at lunch. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)