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This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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Talkback

Touré

Hello, Jimmy. The subject of the Touré article, whom I've met and photographed twice in person, requested that his surname not be used in his article. As it is the practice to comply with such requests for reasons like privacy, I have taken care to keep it out of the article. Another editor asked about this on the article's talk page and now Touré has asked me to remove mention of it from that talk page, which I have. Can the edit that first introduced it be removed from the talk page's edit history? Thank you. Nightscream (talk) 04:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

We nevertheless ought to strike a balance between a desire for privacy or secrecy and the inherent value of producing a complete reference work. This individual makes regular media appearances and hosts at least two television programs. This is someone who is a celebrity; someone who is famous, not infamous. We aren't sheltering the victim of a viral video meme; Touré has diligently sought to build his name and reputation as an essayist, critic, and television personality through more than a decade of publishing and television appearances. To be clear, we're not protecting the identity of Star Wars Kid (about whom I still question the merit of having any article, whether he is named or not). At first blush, insisting that we conceal the last name of Touré seems to make no more sense than deleting the last name of Prince (musician). Absent a clear issue related to personal safety or his family's privacy (one which goes above and beyond the considerations which might apply to any celebrity) we're only left with a question of the degree to which our encyclopedia should conform to a celebrity's preferred personal branding. While I can appreciate that any biography's subject will be sensitive to its contents (and I believe we as a project ought to be sensitive to a subject's concerns), I can't help but find his claims that the inclusion of his surname is 'vandalism' to be somewhat overwrought.

The original (and only) BLP noticeboard discussion took place in 2006, shortly after the BLP policy came into effect, and while the community was still sorting out what it all meant to the project. (Indeed, the discussion is on the very first page of the BLP noticeboard archives.) I would hesitate to rely on that discussion's conclusion to guide us forevermore, for two reasons above and beyond our usual awareness that consensus can change. First, the discussion was in the early days of WP:BLP, and we lacked the body of experience with BLP that we have now.

Second, a major point raised in the original discussion was that issue shouldn't be decided by BLP concerns, but rather was a question about verifiability and the existence of reliable sources. At the time, no reliable sources were offered to support the use of the subject's purported surname. Glancing briefly through the recent history of the article, it certainly appears that this concern remains valid today. Before we even think of pulling the BLP trigger, we need to make sure that article content clears the basic five-pillar requirement of verifiable, reliable sourcing. It is there that the question of including the subject's surname falls down. It should go without saying that the existence of a widely-available, reliable secondary source would also obviate much of the concern regarding a real or hypothetical invasion of privacy on Misplaced Pages's part—the cat, as they say, would already be out of the bag. Absent such reliable secondary sources, the name shouldn't be included purely on the basis of non-verifiability. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Someone who is purposefully famous for their work and seeks to remain as such isn't a private individual. Thus, to maintain our neutrality and our breadth of coverage, we should include his full name, regardless of his wishes. So, unless sources only refer to him with half his name all the time without mentioning his full name, we should include it all. If they do only mention half...well, that's a different scenario that needs to be discussed, but I find it unlikely. Silverseren 15:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source for his full name? It does link the name to a profession on BET. Bielle (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't think you actually have to use a reference for his name in the article, that would be a bit overkill, I think. It just needs to be shown to us editors, not the readers, that RS's use his full name. So, that's one example there, yes. Silverseren 17:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I would be reluctant to rely on a primary source document relating to an individual's tax filings; it takes us to the edge of the realm of encyclopedia-writing and brushes up against investigative journalism. As a gut-instinct matter, it feels more like a 'gotcha' or 'outing'. Ideally, I'd like to see an article about Touré (preferably in the entertainment press or some other relevant venue) which includes his surname. As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest that Misplaced Pages shouldn't be the first secondary or tertiary source to include any particular bit of biographical information. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think TenOfAllTrades has produced a classic, thoughtful, and elegant discussion of the issue. The rule can't be "Don't include a surname unless it is ok with the BLP subject" nor can the rule be "Always include a surname, BLP subject wishes and human dignity be damned". Thoughtful editorial judgment to balance valid competing concerns is, as almost always, the right way forward.

I don't know much about this particular example. I could be swayed towards omission if: there is a physical danger to family members, there is doubt about the sourcing, there is a sense that notability happened to the person rather than being sought, etc. I could be swayed towards inclusion if: there are plenty of reliable sources, there is no obvious safety or privacy issue, the person has deliberately sought fame. It's always a lovely thing when there is a simple and easy formulaic answer, but reality is complex so there often isn't one. Thoughtful discussion can be productive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Does Miles Marshall Lewis writing in the Huffington Post count? Bielle (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Following up on my previous remarks, I note that Target Entertainment Group (which distributes Touré's television interview program On The Record) refers to Touré by his full name – Touré Neblett – in their press releases and on their web site: (Rights...Catalog...Entertainment...On The Record). The phrase "renowned music journalist Touré Neblett" seems to come from that press release, and was repeated verbatim by a handful of outlets. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, we deal with similar issues at WP:BLP/N on occasion, usually revolving around (alleged) real or birth names of people known by stage names (particularly pornographic actor/ess), although sometimes middle names or similar. I don't recall any other case involving a surname but I don't see any reason to treat this differently. We or at least I usually prefer to deal with it in a way similar to that suggested here. We definitely don't publish the info based on searches in primary sources like trademark documents, ancestery searches, tax filings, legal cases, etc. Instead we look for reliable secondary sources. One difference I perhaps have with the above, if the person is covered in more generalised sources I would prefer to find at least one instance of the usage there rather then solely going by specialised sources. (This somewhat reflects my experience, sometimes it may be the real name of porngraphic actor/ess was covered in reliable sources that cover the industry but I don't see the need spread the name when other more generalised sources have not.) However I can see this would go both ways, it may be generalised sources are not aware of the subject's preference in a case like this. We do of course get more complicated cases in BLP/N where the subject is no longer involved in whatever it was they were doing before, and potentially no longer really seeking publicity and all the sources are fairly old. Nil Einne (talk) 17:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Interface change

I think you should change the interface of Misplaced Pages (and your other Wiki sites) to allow non-admin users to delete their user, user talk and subpages. Spidey665 17:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

After thoroughly and thoughtfully considering the implications of this proposal, I have come to the conclusion that this would run the risk of allowing anyone to move an article they don't like to their to their own userspace and then delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.177.1.216 (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

User above is correct. Tofutwitch11 19:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

wikipedia for kids?

Is there such thing?Gregory Heffley (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

See these websites.

• L’encyclopédie pour enfants écrite par les enfants - Wikimini
• PikiWiki Welcome
• Wikijunior - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
• Main Page - Wikiforkids
• Main Page - KidsPedia

—Wavelength (talk) 20:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

All plastered with promotion. →Στc. 00:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

2008/9 Misplaced Pages Selection for schools is the best I have seen out there. NW (Talk) 04:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The original question is ambiguous. Are you asking about a wiki that children can edit, or about an encyclopedia that they can consult?

—Wavelength (talk) 13:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

For one they can consult, I thought that was the point of simple? For one they can edit, all too often they end up here (here being en.wiki in general, not just Jimbo's talk page). Jenks24 (talk) 13:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

META

I think you might like to note how a META sysop can keep an essay in his own preferred status . Cheers -- I feel like I am swimming up the Thames. Collect (talk) 18:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Haven't we played this game already? Deal with it on META, not here...Get over it Tofutwitch11 19:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

At such time as Jimbo says that he is reading his meta user page again, that might make sense. As for "getting over it" right now there is a legitimate issue about an admin/editor wearing two hats at once. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

This isn't something you should come crying to Jimbo for. This is something you should bring to the administration of META (I'm not sure how Meta works, so I'm not sure who you'd go to). Looking at your whopping 93 edits shows that outside of worrying about that "Dick" ESSAY; you haven't been doing much else. Tofutwitch11 21:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I assume you did not note Jimbo's opinions clearly stated about this "essay" and the nature of the edits which were stable. I would also suggest that my 20K edits across projects does not indicate any pre-occupation with any single essay. Cheers, now can you accept that Jimbo does not read his user talk page on Meta as a rule? Collect (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo's not going to come in and save the day. I'm not going to further argue with you on the topic. Tofutwitch11 22:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Tofutwitch11, you're mistaken. I do care about bullying in any Wikimedia venue. Coming in and making wholesale changes after a long period of stability, and reverting people without discussion, is just never ok.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Right; but my point was that instead of taking it here, to your talk page, he should have brought it to the attention of an uninvolved admin or 'crat on Meta for further discussion. Tofutwitch11 00:22, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

And you assert I made no comments on Meta? I suggest you read before writing. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Edward Davenport (criminal)

Kittybrewster ☎ 22:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Please take your comments to a proper venue

Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 01:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The talk page of the article is precisely the place to discuss POV pushing and WP:OWN issues in the article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Without following the relevant policies and guidelines, it is disruptive at least. Please stop disrupting the article so. --Ronz (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

No disrespect, Jimbo, but it's usually better to take such concerns to a user talk page, or to an administrative page like wikiquette or ANI. In my experience, once an article talk page falls into cross-discussions of editor behavior (like POV-pushing and ownership issues), it can rapidly deteriorate to a point where meaningful discussion of article content is all but impossible. Not that anyone's going to actually respect the ideal, mind you (people who get angry at each other are sometimes going to make it personal, and editors who enter that mindset tend to see article-talk as a public forum for airing grievances - human nature...). But I really don't want to have people calling me names in article talk and justifying it with 'Jimbo said we should do it'. --Ludwigs2 14:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• Question POV-pushing politely on article talk-page first: In case some of the article's editors have a group-view POV, it would, in fact, be better to start on the article's talk-page (very politely), to allow responses from the other editors who believe that the text is not overly slanted. Otherwise, it is a heavy burden for each editor to defend charges on their separate user-talk pages, especially if the fellow editors could better explain, or refute, charges of POV-pushing. By the time an issue reaches WP:ANI, then it can become a dog-fight because there are few rules of fairness at ANI, and many "drive-by" opinionators just dog pile into a group attack, as drive-by !voters who do not even know the original article(s) which started the claims of POV-pushing, and the history of how people were goaded into the escalated debate. Of course, I have also seen cases where the article talk-page becomes a WP:BATTLEground, but perhaps at that point, then clearly direct the discussion to WP:ANI with many people (of all sides) ready to debate, not just one lone guy besieged by a pack of regulars and killed off with a WP:SNOW-instant decision before 10 opposing people have stated their opinions. ANI does not have a "due process" restriction to require real evidence and allow 2-weeks for supporters to come and clarify a "defence" of a person being viciously non-attacked at ANI. The use of WP:SNOW, to rush a verdict before other views are stated, is rampant there. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	:) IIVeaa (talk) 17:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Google Street view imagery

Given that google is keen to work with/help wikipedia with search results and translations on certain other wikipedias I wonder if there is a chance we could arrange something with them to take photograph shots of google street view imagery to use in articles. I mean how many articles on US places are without images and in google street view you could simply photograph a select area and upload to article. Obviously quality would't be the best but the opportunity to be able to freely photograph any part of any town would be a massive step.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:55, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Requested pictures and scroll down to links to pages by category.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

A request is not the same as actually getting us images though is it? I could put in a request today for a photo of a village in the forests of Shan State and we'd be unlikely to get one in the next 10 years.♦ Dr. Blofeld 00:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Is that Shan State photo one that you could get from google images? Is that a good example that I could show to people at Google? If not, then could you show me a few examples?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Fate of "important" articles at FAC

Hi Jimbo -- I recently spent some time doing a bit of crude statistical analysis of the FAC process, with results that I think might interest you; see User:Looie496/Analysis of FAC. I should point out that this has given rise to a lively discussion at WT:FAC -- most of the comments there do not agree with my conclusions though. Looie496 (talk) 03:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You might wish to repeat the process with Misplaced Pages:Vital articles.

—Wavelength (talk) 05:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)