Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:37, 17 October 2011

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.

The new software

My apologies if this has already been brought up here. I know you are a busy man and can't reasonably be involved in every little detail of the Foundation's business, but has it been brought to your attention that the new software is causing numerous problems, including blocking innocent users, moving block settings from renamed accounts back to the old names, autoblocking users and IPs for no apparent reason, and effectively making it very difficult for anyone who is not a checkuser to clear any of these erroneous autoblocks, or any other autoblock? The folks over at WP:VPT seem to be telling us that if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created and/or that bugzilla reports have been filed and that is all there is to say about it.

If the new software was a bot we would turn it off. If it was an admin it would be desysopped and banned. I realize the Foundation is not made of money, but this new package seems to have been dumped here without any testing at all of how it would affect adminsitrative actions and the various admin interfaces.I'm no software engineer but the problems it is causing with block settings seem like a major flaw in that it is very much opposed to WPs open editing model to block anyone, ever if they didn't actually do anything to earn it. If there is anything you can do to either temporarily remove it pending fixes to these issues or accelerate actualy getting the problems fixed I'm sure it would be much appreciated by the admin corps and the various users who have been unjustly blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you show me where a member of staff said something like "if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created"?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

No. That's why I said "seem to be telling us." It's more of an attitude. I'm not actually sure I have noticed any improvements, and when I did ask what they were I was referred to this document, which I'm sure says what exactly was improved, but mostly not in a way a person who is not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the software can understand. However I don't believe the user who pointed me there is actually a staff member. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, more interested in knowing when we get back the functions this software is more or less disabling and when it will stop messing up block settings. I'm sure a lot of work went into this, but it is causing a lot of headaches in the block/unblock department. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Right, so I'm very sympathetic to these block/unblock issues, and I'm certainly willing to help turn up the volume on noise, but I don't feel that your comments here have been very helpful to me in that regard. If I go off fuming at the staff for treating the community poorly when they didn't actually do that, then I look like an idiot, I waste their time and mine, and I am therefore not effective in solving any actual problems.

If the problem is such that you and I can come up with a specific concrete proposal that will help the developers in some way, then we can make ourselves useful. Was the problem here a lack of testing? Can the problems be traced back in the code checkins to a particular developer who needs to find a different career? Is there a bigger picture issue with the code rollout process that we could help with?

In the past one complaint I have heard from developers is that they put things up on a test wiki for people in the community to test, but no one actually did. If that's an issue, then maybe we can help with that - we can ask Signpost to market the test wiki, we can form a task force, a wikiproject beta test or whatever.

I don't actually know what the problem is, but I don't see how me going to the staff with the attitude that they are treating the community badly is really going to help anyone. I'm sure they are like software developers at any sensible organization: they want their code to work and they want the users to be happy. They don't want to break things that people need, and they want to make cool new stuff that people love. And... sometimes... things get broken. And then we feel bad about it. The only thing that can help is ideas to actually improve process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

New Misplaced Pages for Kids

I have placed a statement here earlier, stating if there such thing as Misplaced Pages for Kids. I have looked at all of them and I think there should be a new one. None where kid-friendly.Gregory Heffley (talk) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Then go to Wikia and make it. Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors or morals. —Jeremy v^_^v 19:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) What is "kid-friendly")? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

An "encyclopedia for children" has existed in the past - for example my parents procured a set of the Childrens' Britanica (an abridged version of the real thing) when I was young. It wasn't very useful. I'm also wondering what Gregory defines as "kid-friendly". Pedro :  Chat  20:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant.Gregory Heffley (talk) 20:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry - I don't understand - what in the above thread is "exactly what you meant" ? Pedro :  Chat  20:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

What I meant was the wikis were not reliable and doesn't make sense to kids.Gregory Heffley (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree that we need to "up" the reliability as best we can on all wikimedia projects. I'd disagree they are not reliable as long as one treats them as they are - a tertiary source - however. In respect of them not making sense to kids - well - that's a problem for the parents or teachers. Pedro :  Chat  21:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Is the simple Misplaced Pages what you're looking for?--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Simple isn't strictly for children though, it could have an article on Jemma Jameson! This guy has a point, there really ought to be a children's edition of wikipedia with a design specially suited to attracting kids. Really articles could be written based on existing articles and simplified to be suitable for kids learning. and they could be set so only parents and teachers can edit them or something. If I was a seven year old kid, seriously 90% of our articles i'd shut off after two paragraphs. We do need a Children's edition for wikipedia, the nearest thing we have is 2008/9 selection for schools. But we need that sort of thing to be an on going project to build the best possible kids encyclopedia. We also need our own Wiki Atlas for making our own maps, OSM is poor quality. A lot of things which seem really important for some reason get overlooked on here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not easy to determine what is "kid-friendly", so I don't think it's possible. What would this "kid-friendly" wikipedia say about death? That it's the end and that you don't really go to heaven? Or... how are children conceived? Bees & butterflies? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Hehe and say that Santa is a real guy living in Lapland LOL. Well the 3-16 age group would probably require several different encyclopedias to cater to different age groups.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Then again, there's the issue of whether children can collaboratively work together nicely.Jasper Deng (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

If you feel OSM is "poor quality", what makes you think our own efforts would be any better? OSM is what you get when you create a user-edited mapping tool; why would we re-invent the wheel? Better to work with OSM to improve their quality. As for a Children's Edition of Misplaced Pages, no one is stopping you from creating one. You might even get some Misplaced Pages editors to help you with the effort. But the Misplaced Pages project as a whole is focused on creating a comprehensive encyclopedia, not one suitable for minors. Powers 00:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

See Category:Children's encyclopedias and Category:Online encyclopedias.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Oddly this is the third time I have come across a discussion on this topic recently, and found that nobody seems to be aware of the Misplaced Pages CD Selection, AKA Misplaced Pages for schools. No pop culture or porn articles, no gory or sexual images, and you can't vandalize it. I think it would be great if it were actually online. It could be left static, new versions of articles could be imported but it would not be editable by the general public, meaning it would require very little administration. However, so far nobody but me seems to like this idea and I don't have the server space or the technical know-how to do it myself. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

My main objections to ideas like this is the inherited requirement to define what is suitable for children, and who does that decision. Should it be suitable for American children, or should it be suitable for Swedish children? Should it hide facts that are deemed unsuitable in a moral (i.e. moral panic) sense, or unsuitable in an educational level (i.e. Quantum physic) sense. If it's only reliability that is relevant in the end, then no special Misplaced Pages for children is required, just make sure the pedia is reliable :) _→AzaToth 00:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea, Beeblebrox. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard for the Foundation to put this online, since it exists. I think they ought to. Providing an additional online product (which, as we've seen, people seem to want) at low cost would be a good thing, I would think. (BTW and FWIW there is something called "Wikijunior", but that is a subset of Wikibooks and not an encyclopedia. Not sure if it's active, either.) (@AzaToth: "who does that decision" would be people who volunteer to do it, cooperating and using established standards of pedagogy, I guess, and I suppose this is how the CD version that Beeblebrox refers to was made.) Herostratus (talk) 01:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, you're the first person who seems to get the concept behind this idea. It is not a censorship issue. Misplaced Pages undeniably contains material that entirely inappropriate for young children no matter where they live, but I would be the absolute last person to suggest that we should censor this project in any way. It would be a great service to educational institutions for them to have something like WP, but which the kids can't use for other things, such as vandalizing, looking up sexually explicit material, or reading about individual episodes of Family Guy. Articles wouldn't be screened for morals, but rather for actual educational value, which is what they did with the CDs. An article like fisting is not related to any subject they teach in any primary or secondary school I've ever heard of, so it would not make the grade. Neither would Mobile Suit Gundam SEED, for the exact same reason. Since it would not be subject to the space limitations of the CDs we could indeed include any and all educational topics, from alphabet right on up to quantum physics. And the folks who made the CDs already did a lot of the legwork for us. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

New MediaWiki milestone

Hi, Jimbo and Jimbo page watchers. rev:100000 was just committed to MediaWiki subversion repository. Congratulations to everyone. --Meno25 (talk) 01:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)