Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:54, 18 October 2011

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jimmy Wales article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: If I have a question or comment for Jimmy Wales, should I post it on this page? A1: No. This is a talk page for the article about Jimmy (a.k.a "Jimbo") Wales. If you need to contact Jimbo, please use email or his user talk page. As Jimbo explains: "People who are trying to leave messages for me will likely be more satisfied if they leave messages on my user talk page than if they leave them here. This is the talk page for the article about me, not a place to talk to me. I rarely read this. --Jimbo Wales 06:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)" Q2: I heard something about Wales being born on August 8, 1966. Why is this not in the article? A2: Wales's birth date and the date on his birth certificate differ by one day; see discussion here. Wales has said: "I was born on the 7th of August, according to my mother. My legal paperwork all says 8th of August, due to an error on my birth certificate. I am of the firm opinion that the discussion in the Misplaced Pages entry on me should all be removed in favor of simply saying that my date of birth is the 7th." The August 7 date is supported by reliable sources. A straw poll in December 2010 showed strong consensus to include only August 7 in the article.

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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Science and Academia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Misplaced Pages Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic coverage of itself. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page. Please remember to avoid self-references and maintain a neutral point of view, even on topics relating to Misplaced Pages.WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject WikipediaWikipedia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alabama This article is part of WikiProject Alabama, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Alabama on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AlabamaWikipedia:WikiProject AlabamaTemplate:WikiProject AlabamaAlabama Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. 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WikiProject Internet culture To-do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : View all requested internet culture articles Expand : Pick an article from here or here Photo : Category:Internet culture articles needing images Stubs : All stubs are located here Other : Category:Internet self-classification codes (!?); Try to get YouTube to FA; Tag all articles you find with {{WikiProject Internet culture}} See also Category:Internet culture articles needing attention Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Finance & Investment Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finance & Investment, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Finance and Investment on Misplaced Pages. 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Jimmy Wales was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result October 14, 2005 Articles for deletion Kept June 15, 2006 Peer review Reviewed July 5, 2006 Good article nominee Listed October 10, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 17, 2006 Good article reassessment Kept June 13, 2007 Peer review Reviewed August 14, 2007 Articles for deletion Speedily kept August 31, 2007 Articles for deletion Speedily kept December 20, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted September 16, 2008 Good article nominee Listed March 16, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jimmy Wales article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14Auto-archiving period: 2 months

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Nicholson Baker (10 April 2008). "How I fell in love with Misplaced Pages ". The Guardian. Stephen Foley (03 February 2009). "Is Misplaced Pages cracking up?". Irish Independent. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) Nicole Markwald (14 January 2011). "Jimmy Wales und seine "Erfindung" Misplaced Pages". Tagesschau (Germany).

This might be helpful

Two things that might be helpful:

1. Jimmy Wales UES21
2. "Neither Sanger nor Wales expected very much from the Nupedia wiki initiative." This is false.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

With respect to point #2, two sources are cited. I can't see the Atlantic Monthly cite because it doesn't have an online link - the quote in the reference is unhelpful to this point. The New Yorker cite says the following after wiki was added to Nupedia: "Wales braced himself for “complete rubbish.” He figured that if he and Sanger were lucky the wiki would generate a few rough drafts for Nupedia." (The article states all this right after the opening sentence.) We could replace the opening sentence to say "Wales did not expect very much from the Nupedia wiki initiative" - mainly because the New Yorker quote doesn't say anything about Sanger's expectations. Or we could eliminate the topical sentence completely, but it does flow a bit better with an intro sentence.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The claims in the New Yorker article are false. I have said in many interviews over the years that I was always very optimistic about Misplaced Pages. Larry was, too. It's just false to say that we didn't expect much from it. That's just not true. What has happened here is a cherry-picking of sources. Of course it is true, as it is true of anything, that we were unsure what would come of it in the early days. It isn't at all correct - and a total synthesis on the part of Misplaced Pages - to claim that we never expected much of it. Of course we braced ourselves for the possibility of complete rubbish - any sane person would. That didn't mean that we didn't expect much of it - expectations of the future are more complex than that.

This entire section of the article is wrong and should be replaced.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

1 is done. Two quick points - 1. Couldn't find a secondary source. 2. Not 100% on the translation of "21st Century Enterprise University". NickCT (talk) 15:22, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure a translation is necessary, since it is a proper name.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Reverted to Spanish. I was trying to follow suit with the only other mention of this place on en.wikipedia that I could find. NickCT (talk) 13:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Again, like the last two times the second issue has been raised, no-one, Mr. Wales included, has been able to come up with a reliable source which contradicts Marshall Poe's The Atlantic article. I for one am all ears. Skomorokh 12:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

@Skomor - see BB's comment re "I can't see the Atlantic Monthly cite because it doesn't have an online link - the quote in the reference is unhelpful to this point." - Can you give us the passage from Alantic that is relevant? NickCT (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The link is in the references section: this is direct link to the relevant page, start of last paragraph quoted below:

Wales and Sanger created the first Nupedia wiki on January 10, 2001. The initial purpose was to get the public to add entries that would then be “fed into the Nupedia process” of authorization. Most of Nupedia’s expert volunteers, however, wanted nothing to do with this, so Sanger decided to launch a separate site called “Misplaced Pages.” Neither Sanger nor Wales looked on Misplaced Pages as anything more than a lark. This is evident in Sanger’s flip announcement of Misplaced Pages to the Nupedia discussion list. “Humor me,” he wrote. “Go there and add a little article. It will take all of five or ten minutes.” And, to Sanger’s surprise, go they did. Within a few days, Misplaced Pages outstripped Nupedia in terms of quantity, if not quality, and a small community developed.

The New Yorker:

After a year, Nupedia had only twenty-one articles, on such topics as atonality and Herodotus. In January, 2001, Sanger had dinner with a friend, who told him about the wiki, a simple software tool that allows for collaborative writing and editing. Sanger thought that a wiki might attract new contributors to Nupedia. (Wales says that using a wiki was his idea.) Wales agreed to try it, more or less as a lark. Under the wiki model that Sanger and Wales adopted, each entry included a history page, which preserves a record of all editing changes. They added a talk page, to allow for discussion of the editorial process—an idea Bayle would have appreciated. Sanger coined the term Misplaced Pages, and the site went live on January 15, 2001. Two days later, he sent an e-mail to the Nupedia mailing list—about two thousand people. “Misplaced Pages is up!” he wrote. “Humor me. Go there and add a little article. It will take all of five or ten minutes.”

Wales braced himself for “complete rubbish.” He figured that if he and Sanger were lucky the wiki would generate a few rough drafts for Nupedia. Within a month, Misplaced Pages had six hundred articles. After a year, there were twenty thousand.

We have yet to see a credible refutation of these accounts. Skomorokh 13:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I have explained this, up above. In any event, it is not appropriate to place your interpretation - which I have declared to be flatly wrong - on these articles - particularly not when I am telling you that it is flatly wrong.

You are cherry picking sources, I'm afraid. There are hundreds of interviews in which I have described my optimism at the start of the project.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I can scarcely believe this. An editor who champions a strict application of the biographiy of living persons policy, who has a deep and manifested conflict of interest with this article, is sincerely urging that his – entirely unsupported – personal sentiments should be deferred to over the flat contradiction of two of the most respected journalistic publications in the English-speaking world, and furthermore has the temerity to lay bad faith accusations at those who merely ask him to substantiate his claims. The editors of this article have been patient in indulging your wish to express your feelings on our biography, but this really is ludicrous. Skomorokh 18:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh come on. That's a lot of dancing to avoid saying that I am the subject of this BLP and therefore hardly likely to be about to victimize myself with some violation of WP:BLP. We are talking about a portion of the article that claims to describe my own state of mind, and you are defending your interpretation of two cherry-picked sources that I am telling you are wrong. There are hundreds of interviews in which I have described my optimism at the start of the project. Ludicrous is right, my friend.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

@Skomorokh - The issue I take with those two articles is that both of them suggest Sanger and Wales didn't expect v. much in a "commentative/narrative" fashion. Neither really explains how the author arrived at the conclusion that Wales/Sanger had low expections outside pointing to Sanger's "Humor me" e-mail. But thier interpretation of Sanger's e-mail seems to be just that. An interpretation. After reading what they offer of the e-mail I don't think it is 100% certain that Sanger was inferring he didn't expect much from WP.

The only objective evidence for Sanger/Wales having low expectations would be if they were quoted as saying, "We have low expectations". Any other evidence pointed to would be subjective interpretation, and as such might fall foul of WP:NOTOPINION.

The one thing I do find a little disconcerting though is the "complete rubbish" bit. It sounds like they are actually directly quoting Wales as saying "I expected complete rubbish". I wonder if the quote is taken out of context. I'd be curious to know if Mr. Wales could even recollect saying it after all these years..... NickCT (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Sure, the quote is taken out of context and the use in this article is itself complete rubbish. I did not expect complete rubbish. What we were, was sane people testing a new concept. I can't speak directly for Larry, of course. But I was excited and optimistic and we didn't know for sure how it would work, and we weren't ideologically committed to any particular view on how we might have to adapt the software to adjust for problems that might arise. That's just sensible. To say that neither of us expected much from it is just - flatly - false.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I have been searching for some details about this as Jimmy seems to be contenting the present content and has been rejecting the newyorker interview as incorrect. Here is some results that I feel clear up this issue. I will post them here for interested users to peruse and I would be grateful for any ideas for content additions to include something from them. The Sanger quote (number3) I am intending to add as is presented..as a quote, Sanger said.."..." Off2riorob (talk) 15:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Charles Leadbeater is a respected author/writer..

1. "Sanger wanted to revitalise Nupedia, but Wales saw a more radical possibility: to create an entirely open, highly collaborative approach to knowledge.*"

URL: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ipHhSn00OeQC&pg=PA14&dq=sanger+wanted+to+revitalise+nupedia,+but+Wales+saw%22&hl=en&ei=eo7pTcGHBs-j-gaTmtDFDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sanger%20wanted%20to%20revitalise%20nupedia%2C%20but%20Wales%20saw%22&f=false > <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ipHhSn00OeQC&pg=PA14&dq=sanger+wanted+to+revitalise+nupedia,+but+Wales+saw%22&hl=en&ei=eo7pTcGHBs-j-gaTmtDFDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sanger%20wanted%20to%20revitalise%20nupedia%2C%20but%20Wales%20saw%22&f=false

Ref template: <ref name="Leadbeater2009">{{cite book|author=Charles Leadbeater|title=We-Think: Mass Innovation, Not Mass Production|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ipHhSn00OeQC&pg=PA14|accessdate=4 June 2011|date=1 July 2009|publisher=Profile Books|isbn=9781861978370|page=14}}</ref>

2. "Wikis would speed up Nupedia's development /whilst transforming it into the true collaborative effort Wales dreamed of/. As a result of this new technology, Misplaced Pages was born in earnest on 15 January 2001."

URL: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lOr8ic7WVMEC&pg=PA84&dq=%22whilst+transforming+it+into+the+true+collaborative+effort+Wales+dreamed+of%22&hl=en&ei=PpbpTdKvC87OsgbopsDnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22whilst%20transforming%20it%20into%20the%20true%20collaborative%20effort%20Wales%20dreamed%20of%22&f=false > <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lOr8ic7WVMEC&pg=PA84&dq=%22whilst+transforming+it+into+the+true+collaborative+effort+Wales+dreamed+of%22&hl=en&ei=PpbpTdKvC87OsgbopsDnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22whilst%20transforming%20it%20into%20the%20true%20collaborative%20effort%20Wales%20dreamed%20of%22&f=false>

Ref template: <ref name="Gobillot2011">{{cite book|author=Emmanuel Gobillot|title=Leadershift: Reinventing Leadership for the Age of Mass Collaboration|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=lOr8ic7WVMEC&pg=PA84|accessdate=4 June 2011|date=28 June 2011|publisher=Kogan Page Publishers|isbn=9780749463038|pages=84–}}</ref>

3.(This is by Sanger himself.) To be clear, the idea of an open source, collaborative/encyclopedia, open to contribution by ordinary people, was entirely Jimmy's, not mine, and the funding was entirely by Bomis. I was merely a grateful employee ..

URL: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q9GnNrq3e5EC&pg=PA312&dq=%22to+be+clear,+the+idea+of+an+open+source,+collaborative%22&hl=en&ei=OpfpTdv2DcPLsgaC1uHnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20be%20clear%2C%20the%20idea%20of%20an%20open%20source%2C%20collaborative%22&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q9GnNrq3e5EC&pg=PA312&dq=%22to+be+clear,+the+idea+of+an+open+source,+collaborative%22&hl=en&ei=OpfpTdv2DcPLsgaC1uHnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20be%20clear%2C%20the%20idea%20of%20an%20open%20source%2C%20collaborative%22&f=false>

Ref template:<ref name="DiBonaCooper2005">{{cite book|author1=Chris DiBona|author2=Danese Cooper|author3=Mark Stone|title=Open sources 2.0: the continuing evolution|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=q9GnNrq3e5EC&pg=PA312|accessdate=4 June 2011|date=1 November 2005|publisher=O'Reilly Media, Inc.|isbn=9780596008024|pages=312–}}</ref>

I can't help being pointing out how amused I am by this discussion. I already anticipated where this would end up, I already saw it coming, quite at the beginning of the section (well, it has happened before) ... Jimbo as primary source for his own thoughts vs. reliable (well, "reliable") secondary (journalistic) sources on what he said. This may seem silly, but to be fair, all kinds of sources are fallible, and while journalists are known to frequently misquote people (or quote them in misleading ways; not necessarily always intentionally, or with malicious intent; also, misunderstandings may arise), even Jimbo himself is in principle not immune to misremembering things, painting the past overly rosy and other such human, all too human fallacies, even when it comes to his own past, and in principle – i. e., if we could take the accuracy of journalistic sources, such as transcripts and interviews, for granted –, funny enough, these journalistic sources could even be more reliable than Jimbo's own memories, as we know how memories are reconstructed rather than simply recalled perfectly. So it turns out that the seemingly silly obsession with reliable sources on Misplaced Pages is an actually quite sensible principle, even if it leads to Jimbo having to dispute sources, and thus, struggle with the principle he has established himself: Citations from secondary sources reign supreme and trump (almost?) everything else. (I've seen E-mail from scholars on a relevant point rejected as not really useable sources to justify modifications in articles or clarify points, which I do understand, but on the face of it it sounds truly bizarre.)

That said, even in scientific works you can occasionally see attributions such as "pers. comm.", or in German "mündlich" or "Unterricht", which isn't exactly up to the best standards of scientific practice, but as long as personal communication isn't used to support any major points or only to indicate where an idea comes from, I suppose there's nothing wrong with it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:54, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that there are a couple of articles in the Misplaced Pages that make sense to overview / manage separately. One of them is the Silicon Valley. If you will have a chance to take a look to the current discussion you will definitely have fun and perhaps some insight as well. --PrqStar (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding style of quotes

I recently took the trouble to convert all the straight quotation marks to curly ones. I expected to be reverted, and indeed it was, but now the article has a combination of curly and straight quotes (inconsistent).

I just want to remember that MoS is just a guideline and not policy. This encyclopedia is not just online, its articles also end up printed in books.

I know that " is easier for type, but you are not encouraged to use “ and ”. If someone took the time to change those little signs, do not undo that just for following the manual of style. In that case, don’t you think that this article also should follow strictly MoS? —Fitoschido \\ 19 July, 2011

External link

The "External links" section doesn't seem the right place for a wikipedia article - Misplaced Pages:Role of Jimmy Wales - what do others think? Totorotroll (talk) 12:52, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It is, as far as this article is concerned, an external link. It would go against a neutral point of view to put it anywhere else, in my opinion. Remember, Misplaced Pages articles are commonly hosted elsewhere. Misplaced Pages is merely the framework that supports the development of these articles. Jujutacular  02:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Also note, it (Misplaced Pages:Role of Jimmy Wales) is not a "Misplaced Pages article", (i.e. it is not in the article namespace) it is in the project namespace. Jujutacular  02:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales

Hey. It's RJennings07. I was wondering about how I can chat with other Misplaced Pages members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJennings07 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Laws: (WIKITICS) Displaying, Creating, User Modification through process of elimination. Every modification has to meet curtain criteria to advance...

I think WIKIMEDIA needs to come up with a website where people, if given the chance, could ultimately create, modify and advance laws, to be voted on through popular public participation. Pros and cons grouped to eliminate redundancy and listed so people are fully aware of the argument. Most popular laws move to the front for easy access. This will alow math, instead of prejudice, to shape our lopsided, outdated and corrupt laws. I think a website like this could ultimately replace congress, saving the country headaches and trillions of dollars. If you eliminate congress... you minimize secret government activities. John Kelsch, Fairbanks, Alaska — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvkfai (talk • contribs) 20:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I think this should be on User:Jimbo Wales is an article about Jimmy Wales not his user page.--70.24.211.105 (talk) 01:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Early career in finance

There is a discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales#Your early career in finance. (permalink) where Jimbo responded to some questions. Johnuniq (talk) 02:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course the weakness in having the discussion there is that 1) it's clearly the wrong place for a content discussion, 2) Jimbo's page gets archived so frequently the discussion will simply vanish into his talk archives without meaningful clash (and as a content discussion, many editors will choose not to get involved there, IMHO), and 3) the questions raised are reasonable and important ones not answered by sources or content on Jimbo's subject page. If the living subject were, say, a politician or an economist, a large omission like the one raised would cry out for filling in and citation. So if that discussion goes stale, expect me to start a fresh discussion here to find answers to the questions raised. BusterD (talk) 03:34, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks more like trolling than discussion for article improvement. Off2riorob (talk) 08:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Please AGF. It may be the IP is trolling, but the questions raised are pointed and not currently covered on the article page. I did not raise these issues myself, but as a long established editor in good standing, I'd like to see the questions answered myself. I'm clearly NOT trolling, but interested in page improvement. Has anyone written a book length treatment of the subject? Why the heck not? BusterD (talk) 11:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Those who have watched Jimbo's talk for a considerable period know that trolls frequently pop in to ask pointed questions. Clearly Jimbo would have mentioned if he knew of a book or other reliable source. As no one has found such a source, it is evident that it does not exist, so speculating about issues is not productive (and certainly lies outside the talk page guidelines). Johnuniq (talk) 11:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ahem I certainly am not trolling, please assume good faith. I am concerned that claims in supposedly reliable sources conflict. This article says that Jimmy was a 'research director' at Chicago Options Associates. Where did that come from? All claims should be linked to reliable sources, and this one is not, moreover it conflicts with the claim that he was 'Research Director' (a research director would not be allowed to trade because of conflict of interest, although I am sure it happens). Also COA was deregistered in 1991, so that claim conflicts as well. Either delete these claims from the article or find the most reliable one and substantiate it. 86.184.49.56 (talk) 11:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

arh, hg,,, cough. Good faith is not a blind man in the dark we are able to assess your contributions. - I'm off - bye, you realize you can be bold and improve the article yourself. Off2riorob (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The ip is trolling, plain and simple. His questions are incoherent and his insinuations are transparent. BusterD, I'd be happy to hear what you think is missing from the article right now, and what clarifications you think I might provide.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think this is the place for original research by Misplaced Pages editors drawing primary source material from talk page interviews with Jimmy. However, he may be able to give some helpful tips on how to find reliable sources on this topic. That said, secondary sources often do get things wrong and this is someone's BLP, after all, so don't be startled if, when asking about something in a source, the answer's along the lines of, "that's flat wrong." Gwen Gale (talk) 23:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, Jimbo, but I was asking about reliable sources, not opinions (even informed opinions). After looking in from a wikibreak, I was quite surprised at the above response from the "father" of this project. Jimmy should know the policies and guidelines better than anyone. And I think Gwen makes the essential point. Subjects of BLPs who suddenly pop up on article talk to discuss issues are clearly in COI. Communication via OTRS is a slightly different matter. The primary value of such COI contribution would be in the discovery of RS, not self-assessment. The issues the ip "troller" raises deserve answers documented by RS citation (or IMHO they'll never go away). The confusion of the Chicago trading days isn't imagined, it's authentic. Another example: since Nupedia and WP were originally launched on Bomis servers, it's not to the pedia's credit the Bomis page has many of its sourcing legs kicked out from under it by dead internet links (and Archive.org isn't as helpful as I would normally expect it to be). It's fine with me that Bomis had sections related to pretty girls. I like pretty girls myself; I don't think that detail undercuts the project. As Wikipedians, we owe readers good sourcing on all pages, but especially on certain key pages, particularly those related to the history and credibility of the project. It might serve the Foundation well to commission an authorized biography of Jimbo to dissipate some of this confusion.

On Misplaced Pages I consider myself primarily a compiler of minor biographies (mostly people long deceased). If one of those figures suddenly popped up on article talkspace to discuss content issues, I'd first be surprised and somewhat pleased (even flattered), then I'd be suspicious (see page histories of Peter Tomsen and Talk:Peter Tomsen). Maybe that's just me. Per Seigenthaler, we need to pay attention to the "that's flat wrong" statements, but I'm not over-interested in what subjects of BLP have to say about the way they are portrayed on the pedia. It's a potential pitfall, and not one I'd expect a Foundation official to perpetuate. BusterD (talk) 10:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a tremendous amount of confusion in the above comment (Jimbo did not say anything like what is suggested by BusterD, either here or at his user talk page). Future comments should focus on improvements to the article, per WP:TPG. Johnuniq (talk) 02:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to reiterate though that I don't think there is any actual confusion here. If BusterD has a question, I can try to answer it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

As an update - ,BusterD added the retired templates to his userpage the day after posting here and has not yet returned to editing. Off2riorob (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Personal life update

If that Guardian article is true, Mr. Wales might have a second child by this point in time, and be married to Kate Garvey. I tried Googling on this topic and found nothing. Does anyone know of any reliable sources which might help us keep Misplaced Pages current? Followship (talk) 20:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

'Pornography' vs 'adult content'

I'm referring to the sentence: "In 1996, he and two partners founded Bomis, a male-oriented web portal featuring entertainment and adult content," in which my edit to change the word "adult" to "pornographic" was reverted.

In the above sentence, "adult" is being used as a euphemism for pornography. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is an established, referenced fact (See Bomis). Using the word "adult" is ambiguous, and makes an implicit value judgement of the content. This is why it is preferred to simply use a more precise term and allow readers to make their own opinions. For further information: WP:EUPHEMISM. Dr. WTF (talk) 04:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Problem is, the word "pornography" is not at all precise, and it has a meaning now (when extreme porn is one click away from everyone) that is rather different from Bomis. Johnuniq (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Adult content is far less precise and is a loaded term. Who decides what is and isn't "adult"? Discussion of gambling, alcohol, tobacco, or recreational drugs could constitute adult content, but Bomis did not have any of that. Retirement could even be considered "adult" content. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I would say pornography was more loaded - there are legal statutes relating to age that assert who can look at what legally and when - whereas, one mans pornography is another mans naked humanoid. What do the reliable citations say and are there any links in the wayback to borris? all I get is redlink - http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.bomis.com/ - Off2riorob (talk) 21:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

The content was decidedly erotic. That is not disputed . See the Bomis Misplaced Pages page for more. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks - imo - erotic is closer defined in adult content than pornography ,"Bomis found its niche in erotica and adult content", I had a look a the wiki boris article, thanks for the detail. Its hair splitting imo and this is a WP:BLP so I prefer as policy suggests to err on the side of caution. Off2riorob (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

So we are in agreement to go with "erotic" in place of "adult"? Dr. WTF (talk) 21:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

No, please don't put words into my mouth - I support adult as being a neutral reflective expression, in this BLP. I will remove this from my watchlist for a bit now - one of the worst aspects of this project is endless worthless discussions over hair splitting trivia. - imo, from my investigations the NPOV position is adult content, bye. Off2riorob (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, you argued the point for me. Erotica is more closely defined in adult content. It is a more specific, less loaded, and less ambiguous term than "adult content", which you even indicate that it is a subset of. If you do not want to discuss this further, and if no one else has any further comments, I'll go ahead and change the term "adult content" in a few days time. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello| Your not listening at all .... I do not support your desired change - I support as the article currently is, adult content - Off2riorob (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

You cannot simply say you don't agree, abandon the discussion, and then expect whatever your opinion is to be fulfilled. Misplaced Pages works by building a consensus. If you want to discuss this further, then let's talk. Otherwise, step aside and let the rest of us form a consensus. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Again you misrepresent me - I have stated my position - I have nothing else to say about it - its so trivial I have already wasted more time on it than it is worth. Simply count my vote for the consensus in support of the position I have stated. Off2riorob (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I have not misrepresented your position. I cannot be faulted for misinterpreting what you've said when your unstated final conclusion went against your stated argument. I wasn't able to make that leap of logic and I doubt anyone else but you could have. But, please, if you have nothing else to say in regards to the original discussion do not feel obliged to continue. Unlike what you've said, this isn't a vote. Dr. WTF (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "adult content" is not precise—no single term can precisely identify anything let alone a web site where a range of material is available. The main problem with "pornography" is what I said above: it has a meaning now that is totally different from 1996 and it misrepresents what Bomis says. From the latter: "categorized broadly as "Babe", "Entertainment", "Sports", "Adult", "Science fiction", and "Other"" (and later in the article, we see that Bomis Premium offered pornography). The proposed edit describes that simply as "a male-oriented web portal featuring entertainment and pornographic content". That misrepresents what was apparently quite different to what is known as porn today (where one click takes you to anal sex and more), and is not suitable, particularly in the lead of a BLP. Is there a reliable source describing Bomis as a porn site? Johnuniq (talk) 22:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

See above for a reference. And what are your thoughts on the term "erotic" instead? Dr. WTF (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

If by "above" you mean this, that article says "Bomis found its niche in erotica and adult content, making enough revenue from ads and paid subscriptions for premium X-rated content" which is pretty much what Bomis says. What is the actual problem that needs to be solved here? Who says that "adult content" is such a heinous euphemism that it must not be used? Describing YouPorn as "adult content" would be an absurd euphemism, but the term seems precisely appropriate (and sourced) for Bomis. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Other websites are not bound to neutrality (cultural and otherwise). Adult content adds nothing but vagary. Who decides what is and isn't "adult"? Discussion of gambling, alcohol, tobacco, or recreational drugs could constitute adult content, but Bomis did not have any of that. Retirement could even be considered "adult" content. Also see . Dr. WTF (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Bomis did, in fact, have information about gambling, alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. Dr. WTF is pushing an agenda here that is not in line with the sources or the facts. Bomis was a platform for people to come and build "web rings" - links to content of all kinds and guess what, some people liked to collect links to adult content (of all kinds).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Is Bomis best labeled as "adult", "pornographic", or "erotic"? -- RfC

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There is some disagreement regarding the appropriate labeling of Bomis in the (lead "adult", "pornographic", or "erotic"?) and whether or not a more descriptive term than "adult" should be used. Prior consensus settled on "erotic" (also see footnote in main article). Dr. WTF (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The source says "erotica and adult" - why not just go with that? I think "erotica" is better than "erotic", because the latter may be a matter of opinion. If Jimmy's willing to email me some archived content then I'll make a judgement and get back to you. --FormerIP (talk) 23:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

None of those labels is actually accurate. Bomis was a web directory built by end users and contained all kinds of content. The idea that it should be primarily referred to as "adult" even is just wrong. It was about as adult as Yahoo. (Indeed, I used to send reporters links to Yahoo when they would ask me about what this adult content at Bomis stuff meant.)

FormerIP, I don't have any archived content to email you. But here is a link to yahoo that Dr. WTF might find interesting. Perhaps it is time to go over to the article on one of the Yahoo founders to make wild claims about pornography?

There are some serious errors in some of the sources, which I'll just mention now. One source - a very high quality source - claims that Bomis came to be known as the "Playboy of the Internet" - that is completely false, and I dare anyone to find anyone even saying such a thing prior to the source claiming it. It was a turn of phrase by a reporter which is now sometimes in my article. (I haven't looked just now.) It's editorially misleading to the public to use that phrase since it is a factual claim which is provably false--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC).

Investment banker category

Added here - but I have never been an investment banker.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

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