Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:55, 18 October 2011

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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The new software

My apologies if this has already been brought up here. I know you are a busy man and can't reasonably be involved in every little detail of the Foundation's business, but has it been brought to your attention that the new software is causing numerous problems, including blocking innocent users, moving block settings from renamed accounts back to the old names, autoblocking users and IPs for no apparent reason, and effectively making it very difficult for anyone who is not a checkuser to clear any of these erroneous autoblocks, or any other autoblock? The folks over at WP:VPT seem to be telling us that if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created and/or that bugzilla reports have been filed and that is all there is to say about it.

If the new software was a bot we would turn it off. If it was an admin it would be desysopped and banned. I realize the Foundation is not made of money, but this new package seems to have been dumped here without any testing at all of how it would affect adminsitrative actions and the various admin interfaces.I'm no software engineer but the problems it is causing with block settings seem like a major flaw in that it is very much opposed to WPs open editing model to block anyone, ever if they didn't actually do anything to earn it. If there is anything you can do to either temporarily remove it pending fixes to these issues or accelerate actualy getting the problems fixed I'm sure it would be much appreciated by the admin corps and the various users who have been unjustly blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you show me where a member of staff said something like "if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created"?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

No. That's why I said "seem to be telling us." It's more of an attitude. I'm not actually sure I have noticed any improvements, and when I did ask what they were I was referred to this document, which I'm sure says what exactly was improved, but mostly not in a way a person who is not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the software can understand. However I don't believe the user who pointed me there is actually a staff member. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, more interested in knowing when we get back the functions this software is more or less disabling and when it will stop messing up block settings. I'm sure a lot of work went into this, but it is causing a lot of headaches in the block/unblock department. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Right, so I'm very sympathetic to these block/unblock issues, and I'm certainly willing to help turn up the volume on noise, but I don't feel that your comments here have been very helpful to me in that regard. If I go off fuming at the staff for treating the community poorly when they didn't actually do that, then I look like an idiot, I waste their time and mine, and I am therefore not effective in solving any actual problems.

If the problem is such that you and I can come up with a specific concrete proposal that will help the developers in some way, then we can make ourselves useful. Was the problem here a lack of testing? Can the problems be traced back in the code checkins to a particular developer who needs to find a different career? Is there a bigger picture issue with the code rollout process that we could help with?

In the past one complaint I have heard from developers is that they put things up on a test wiki for people in the community to test, but no one actually did. If that's an issue, then maybe we can help with that - we can ask Signpost to market the test wiki, we can form a task force, a wikiproject beta test or whatever.

I don't actually know what the problem is, but I don't see how me going to the staff with the attitude that they are treating the community badly is really going to help anyone. I'm sure they are like software developers at any sensible organization: they want their code to work and they want the users to be happy. They don't want to break things that people need, and they want to make cool new stuff that people love. And... sometimes... things get broken. And then we feel bad about it. The only thing that can help is ideas to actually improve process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

What we basically have here, as somebody once said, is a failure to communicate. Let me mention that an understandable account of the new features enabled by 1.18 can be found at this page. Looie496 (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I do believe the core problem here was insufficient testing. I can't imagine anyone deliberately releasing software if they had any idea it would do some of the odd things it has been doing. The biggest problem is what it is doing to blocks, e.g. autoblocking IPs for no apparent reason, combined with the fact that the new package doesn't seem to communicate properly with the autoblock checker on the toolserver. The result being that autoblocks are made by the software and the majority of admins are unable to clear them. If there is a need for more testers next time sign me up, I actually don't know anything about the test wiki even after four years of active editing so I think you are really onto something with the idea of raising it's profile in the future. Given the number of bugs this time around I would think it would be an easy sell to get admins and others to help next time around. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Before I say anything let me make clear that I am completely uninvolved with Misplaced Pages development -- I just have enough experience with development of other software to understand part of what is going on. With that said, first a minor correction: the software has actually not been released yet. Rolling it out for the Wikimedia sites is the final stage of testing before it is formally released. Second, it actually has been tested pretty extensively, but there is no testing platform that places anything like the demands of the Wikimedia sites, and previous attempts by the developers to get people to try out the testing platforms have met with very little response (according to them, and I believe it). The main error, I believe, was to announce the rollout with a cheerful breezy attitude instead of with a serious warning that it might cause some temporary breakage. Regarding getting admins to help out the next time around, my experience says that you are too optimistic: many people have good intentions, but nobody has a lot of time to devote to mere testing. Looie496 (talk) 23:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Please could you explain what "the software" is? Are we talking about the useless disaster that was 1.18, or something else? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Correcting myself, ok we're talking about 1.18. It hasn't been released yet? Or has it? How is it impacting real users (for example, by incorrectly blocking them) if it has not been released yet? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me again give a pointer to the MediaWiki 1.18 page, which explains what has been happening. "Releasing" means making an official package available to the outside world. 1.18 has been activated for all the WikiMedia sites as of October 4, but hasn't yet been officially released, as far as I know. Looie496 (talk) 23:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

So en.wiki is running pre-release software? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. There simply is no other way to do final testing than to run it on one of the major wikis. It was previously rolled out on several smaller wikis for testing, and apparently no major problems popped up at that level. An argument might be made that the schedule was too aggressive, but ultimately any major software release is going to have issues that only show up once it begins to be used in a full-scale production environment. (Such as the current problem with previously blocked users who changed their names -- on a small wiki the chances of spotting that are pretty slim.) Looie496 (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

If someone could point me to a concise summary of any extant issues, I'm happy to take them to the devs. But my understanding is that the worst of the bugs had been squashed? Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 08:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The most important problem is that developers have not been communicating with administrators about a number of serious issues related to blocking -- admins cannot be expected to go to Bugzilla to get information. Also, the bug that is probably the most serious, bug 31403, is unresolved with no promise of a rapid resolution. Looie496 (talk) 14:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

New Misplaced Pages for Kids

I have placed a statement here earlier, stating if there such thing as Misplaced Pages for Kids. I have looked at all of them and I think there should be a new one. None where kid-friendly.Gregory Heffley (talk) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Then go to Wikia and make it. Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors or morals. —Jeremy v^_^v 19:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) What is "kid-friendly")? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

An "encyclopedia for children" has existed in the past - for example my parents procured a set of the Childrens' Britanica (an abridged version of the real thing) when I was young. It wasn't very useful. I'm also wondering what Gregory defines as "kid-friendly". Pedro :  Chat  20:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant.Gregory Heffley (talk) 20:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry - I don't understand - what in the above thread is "exactly what you meant" ? Pedro :  Chat  20:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

What I meant was the wikis were not reliable and doesn't make sense to kids.Gregory Heffley (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree that we need to "up" the reliability as best we can on all wikimedia projects. I'd disagree they are not reliable as long as one treats them as they are - a tertiary source - however. In respect of them not making sense to kids - well - that's a problem for the parents or teachers. Pedro :  Chat  21:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Is the simple Misplaced Pages what you're looking for?--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Simple isn't strictly for children though, it could have an article on Jemma Jameson! This guy has a point, there really ought to be a children's edition of wikipedia with a design specially suited to attracting kids. Really articles could be written based on existing articles and simplified to be suitable for kids learning. and they could be set so only parents and teachers can edit them or something. If I was a seven year old kid, seriously 90% of our articles i'd shut off after two paragraphs. We do need a Children's edition for wikipedia, the nearest thing we have is 2008/9 selection for schools. But we need that sort of thing to be an on going project to build the best possible kids encyclopedia. We also need our own Wiki Atlas for making our own maps, OSM is poor quality. A lot of things which seem really important for some reason get overlooked on here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not easy to determine what is "kid-friendly", so I don't think it's possible. What would this "kid-friendly" wikipedia say about death? That it's the end and that you don't really go to heaven? Or... how are children conceived? Bees & butterflies? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Hehe and say that Santa is a real guy living in Lapland LOL. Well the 3-16 age group would probably require several different encyclopedias to cater to different age groups.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Then again, there's the issue of whether children can collaboratively work together nicely.Jasper Deng (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

As opposed to the issue of whether adults can collaboratively work together nicely, which requires little discussion: We already know that many of them can't.  :) Neutron (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

If you feel OSM is "poor quality", what makes you think our own efforts would be any better? OSM is what you get when you create a user-edited mapping tool; why would we re-invent the wheel? Better to work with OSM to improve their quality. As for a Children's Edition of Misplaced Pages, no one is stopping you from creating one. You might even get some Misplaced Pages editors to help you with the effort. But the Misplaced Pages project as a whole is focused on creating a comprehensive encyclopedia, not one suitable for minors. Powers 00:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

See Category:Children's encyclopedias and Category:Online encyclopedias.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Oddly this is the third time I have come across a discussion on this topic recently, and found that nobody seems to be aware of the Misplaced Pages CD Selection, AKA Misplaced Pages for schools. No pop culture or porn articles, no gory or sexual images, and you can't vandalize it. I think it would be great if it were actually online. It could be left static, new versions of articles could be imported but it would not be editable by the general public, meaning it would require very little administration. However, so far nobody but me seems to like this idea and I don't have the server space or the technical know-how to do it myself. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

My main objections to ideas like this is the inherited requirement to define what is suitable for children, and who does that decision. Should it be suitable for American children, or should it be suitable for Swedish children? Should it hide facts that are deemed unsuitable in a moral (i.e. moral panic) sense, or unsuitable in an educational level (i.e. Quantum physic) sense. If it's only reliability that is relevant in the end, then no special Misplaced Pages for children is required, just make sure the pedia is reliable :) _→AzaToth 00:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea, Beeblebrox. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard for the Foundation to put this online, since it exists. I think they ought to. Providing an additional online product (which, as we've seen, people seem to want) at low cost would be a good thing, I would think. (BTW and FWIW there is something called "Wikijunior", but that is a subset of Wikibooks and not an encyclopedia. Not sure if it's active, either.) (@AzaToth: "who does that decision" would be people who volunteer to do it, cooperating and using established standards of pedagogy, I guess, and I suppose this is how the CD version that Beeblebrox refers to was made.) Herostratus (talk) 01:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, you're the first person who seems to get the concept behind this idea. It is not a censorship issue. Misplaced Pages undeniably contains material that entirely inappropriate for young children no matter where they live, but I would be the absolute last person to suggest that we should censor this project in any way. It would be a great service to educational institutions for them to have something like WP, but which the kids can't use for other things, such as vandalizing, looking up sexually explicit material, or reading about individual episodes of Family Guy. Articles wouldn't be screened for morals, but rather for actual educational value, which is what they did with the CDs. An article like fisting is not related to any subject they teach in any primary or secondary school I've ever heard of, so it would not make the grade. Neither would Mobile Suit Gundam SEED, for the exact same reason. Since it would not be subject to the space limitations of the CDs we could indeed include any and all educational topics, from alphabet right on up to quantum physics. And the folks who made the CDs already did a lot of the legwork for us. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Well I agree that "we should censor this project in any way", for the same reason I agree that that "we" shouldn't issue passports or collect tariffs: we don't have any police powers, so we can't censor anything. We can exercise editorial judgement, but that's way different.

OK, sorry about the snark, but's a hobbyhorse of mine. Anyway, after thinking about this some, I'm of two minds about this, for reason of internal politics, too long and complicated to describe here. Herostratus (talk) 18:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, So what is the outcome of this?Gregory Heffley (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

See MassResistance#"Fistgate" and in particular . There's a lot of bullshit out there but basically as I understand it a student asked about the practice and after another student commented, one of the people (adults) in charge offered a brief explaination to help clear up some misconceptions. While not a part of any curriculum and was outside school, it's clear some people don't see any harm in helping older secondary school students (the workshop was for youths between the ages of 14-21) better understand stuff they've heard of before. Our article may not be the best way to do this and it goes in to more detail then is likely in any such session (although that is true for a lot of our articles) but I think your idea of universal concepts of what's taught and not taught are a little simplistic. I can imagine Mobile Suit Gundam SEED is something that may be analysed as an example if the subject is Japanese culture or anime (or both!) in school. As another example, are you planning to include oral sex? I'm pretty sure this is something that is fairly commonly discussed to some extent in sexual education in schools in some places e.g. but in other places mentioning it is likely unthinkable. Nil Einne (talk) 08:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It is possible for pretty much anything to be brought up in a conversation in a classroom somewhere. I don't think it would be that difficult to come up with objective criteria to determine what is and is not a "general education" article if we were really going to do this. For everything else we already have this project. I'm thinking more of something used by elementary/primary schools, as opposed to high schools or secondary schools. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

New MediaWiki milestone

Hi, Jimbo and Jimbo page watchers. rev:100000 was just committed to MediaWiki subversion repository. Congratulations to everyone. --Meno25 (talk) 01:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

anonymous (street meat)

The page was deleted -- http://en.wikipedia.org/Anonymous_(Street_Meat) -- they came after it big big guns. I wish to go on record that this experience was personal, contentious and has had a stifling effect. Thank you Mig (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC)Mig (talk) 14:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I would not say the "big guns" came after it. Indeed, you had the tremendous benefit of assistance during that discussion from some of our key editors on Films overall - including someone who appears in film. You were provided some great advice on how and when related to this article - indeed, I wish I'd had that same benefit with a couple of articles that I have had deleted :-) You may continue to work on a userspace draft of the article, and when it meets the guidelines under WP:FILM you'll be good to go! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that Miss Chinea is the director and writer of the film in question. As far as I've seen, people where nothing but courteous and professional in their dealings with Miss Chinea. She has been advised a number of times about policies related conflict of interest and notability which she seems to have largely ignored. Instead she chose to continue attempting to promote her film through Misplaced Pages. The reason she found it personal and contentious was that she chose to take it personally because it was her film. I've seen this happen dozens of times, where someone finds the process difficult because it is judging the impact their own creative effort. Personally I don't think this is a major problem (aside from being a hassle for non single purpose editors), there are many people who see Misplaced Pages as merely a means to an end. If they don't get their way they feel disillusioned. --Daniel 16:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I wonder how we might soften the edges of the process for people, so that they learn from it and become better editors rather than getting disillusioned... at least more often than happens now. (Some people will never be satisfied, of course.)

For example, rather than the article being deleted, perhaps it could have just been moved to her userspace and put there in some useful fashion with links to the deletion discussion and community advice for getting the article published at an appropriate time and with appropriate content.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)