Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:19, 19 October 2011

Welcome!

Hello, BesterRus, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.

If you are interested in Russia-related topics, you may want to check out the WikiProject Russia and its task forces, the Russia Portal and the project discussion page. You might even want to add these pages to your watchlist.

Again, welcome! GreyHood 13:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Soviet subjects

Hello! Just few advices for you, in case you continue to work on the Soviet-related topics.

• Do not delete the large referenced parts of any article completely without replacing them with a better text. If you find some such parts to be a conspiracy theories rather than a neutral representation of history, just reduce them in size per WP:WEIGHT so that they do not overshadow the true and impartially represented historic facts.
• It doesn't look nice when you delete sourced material, even if it is conspiracy-like and often erroneous. Better not just remove it, but replace with some other text, preferably a properly sourced text.
• It makes sense to develop the parts of the article less-prone to controversy, such as expanding the parts of Kirov biography related to his administration of the economy. This also could help to maintain WP:WEIGHT for other more problematic parts of the story.
• You should make referenced additions to the articles. That's why you might be interested in creating articles about those historians and books, which you use as references. For example, you could translate an article about ru:Жуков, Юрий Николаевич and create some articles about his books. GreyHood 13:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Request for participation

Dear BesterRus: Hello. This is just to let you know that you've been mentioned in the following request at the Mediation Cabal, which is a Misplaced Pages dispute resolution initiative that resolves disputes by informal mediation.

The request can be found at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor.

Just so you know, it is entirely your choice whether or not you participate. If you wish to do so, and we'll see what we can do about getting this sorted out. At MedCab we aim to help all involved parties reach a solution and hope you will join in this effort.

If you have any questions relating to this or any other issue needing mediation, you can ask on the case talk page, the MedCab talk page, or you can ask the mediator, Steven Zhang, at their talk page.

MedcabBot (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

One more advice

Be civil please, and avoid WP:Personal attacks against the other participants of discussions you take part in. It doesn't matter what opinions other people support, even if they are entirely wrong by your standards, you still should be civil and avoid accusing other people personally or in group with labels like "dishonest". This is counterproductive and doesn't help. GreyHood 18:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry for to strong a statement, I've kind of misread your statement on Holodomor (it is a bit emotional in parts). Nevertheless, as a general rule, this advice holds true (again sorry for reading morals). GreyHood 19:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I made a typo, it might have facilitated the misreading ;) BesterRus (talk) 06:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm going on vacation for the next week and will have a limited or no access to wiki. So you need to continue the discussions on Kirov and Holodomor on your own (Paul Siebert also misses for the last past days but I hope he will return to editing soon). You see, some things on Misplaced Pages might get rather prolonged, just get on with it. If you can't achieve significant results, just wait for the other editors to join the discussion. Adding more text and more sources is always a good idea. Cheers! GreyHood 23:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, we quickly reached an impasse on Kirov in your absence. I'm unsure as to the way to proceed at this point. I asked for another editor's assistance (Steven Zhang), but it seems he's got too much stuff to handle. I guess I'll just wait for when you're back and then hopefully we can make this thing move forward one way or another. Honestly, I never expected that much resistance for an article as simple as Kirov. My plan was to eventually edit Stalin's article, but first I wanted to approach it through smaller articles like Kirov. Now Kirov's talk page looks like WW1 trench warfare, so apparently my plan wasn't as perfect as I'd imagined.BesterRus (talk) 07:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Hiya

Hey, just wanted to give a heads up, I responded on my talk page. Cheers, DBaba (talk) 02:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:STALK

This is just to let you know about such policy. Please keep in mind. Of course if someone edited an article/subject before, it would not be strange that he returns to editing the same. Biophys (talk) 14:54, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• I was aware of that policy and it already crossed my mind that you were following my edits for some reason. I even considered making another account to get rid of it, which I fully intend to do for some articles. Anyhow, this obsession of yours will bring you no sense of accomplishment, nor is it healthy in any way, and it will probably escalate with time from what I remember from my psychology courses. I'm sorry my edits make you feel that way, but I can't help you.BesterRus (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not imply anything wrong by anyone at this point. However, based on your response, you should also check WP:SOCK, just to be informed. Thanks, Biophys (talk) 15:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but the only reason I'm making a new account is for you and your friend to stop following me :) BesterRus (talk) 15:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is the thing. Some people are watching articles in the area of their interest (usually something they edited before). This is not just me: there is a notice from user DBaba on your talk page. As about opening new account, yes, you are welcome to make "clean start" as explained here. Biophys (talk) 16:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Choice of sources and representation thereof

I am glad for editors who contribute Russia-related content, being a closet Russophile myself. Regarding "impasses", you will find your time on Misplaced Pages will be most constructive sticking to mainstream scholarship. I've been a bit disappointed in your recent edits based on interpretations of Soviet jurisprudence as holding sway over undisputed events. How you spend your time on Misplaced Pages is up to you, but it's always more constructive to avoid conflict, so at least make sure to discuss changes first. No response necessary, feel free to delete (not that you haven't already). PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Who do you consider mainstream historians? Quantity isn't quality in these matters. For instance, there were very mainstream Nazi historians at the time, and they were very accepted by the large audience. I hope you don't take offense in this example, by no means am I trying to compare your historians to Nazis, but I hope you get my point. Conquest's (I suppose that is your author of choice) sources are weak and he's been caught on lies numerous times. However mainstream or popular he may be, I'm not about to use his books as sources any time soon. I'd rather stick to archival evidence and to authors who base their findings on archives and not on unscientific extrapolations. BesterRus (talk) 15:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The work of some historians "based on archives," e.g., Dyukov disputing the deportation of Estonians in cattle cars as a lie based on archival evidence, is laughable at best; thus, stating something is work based on archives does not inherently give it any more reliability. So, as to mainstream or reputable/reliable, certainly not Dmitry Lyskov. Lastly, your starting your response here with your twisting of "mainstream" is really quite unwelcome as you expected, which twisting I can only take as a sign you're not particularly interested in constructive discourse. I do get your "point," but perhaps it is not one you intended to communicate. Best, PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

You just followed me into another article and reverted my edit without addressing the discussion I started, and without providing a single source, just your opinion. Way to be constructive! You just made me laugh a fair amount, thanks :) BesterRus (talk) 15:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you really want to know what's mainstream and what's not, there's been a social survey in Russia a few months ago, it was conducted in 77 regions, more than 36,000 people participated in the survey. The survey was about de-sovetization and de-stalinization. If you really want to know what's mainstream, I suggest you take a look at it - http://axio.eot.su/ As you will see, 70% of respondents do NOT welcome de-stalinization and 90% do NOT welcome de-sovetization. There are more details in the pdf. You obviously weren't aware of what's mainstream, so I hope that link will be helpful. BesterRus (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I am glad we have come to be mutual sources of amusement in such a short time span. It would help if your changes cited secondary sources and not primary (law ABC says X, N convicted in accordance with...). But I digress. Regarding popular opinion of de-Sovietization and de-Stalinization within Russia, I have no doubt as to the desires of the Russian (citizens of...) populace after nearly a century of propaganda as to what gives them comfort and predictability in the face of an uncertain future.

Certainty of or (selective) amnesia within communal memory is independent of the reliability or unreliability of such memory—which memory is inadmissible for encyclopedic purposes except where cited in secondary sources focused on communal memory. That is, while communal memory is a fascinating topic, communal memory itself is not a reliable source. (And thank you for the source.)

As for the law of..., that had been a feature of Soviet life since the Volga basin in 1921-22 and on into the Holodomor. So, completely related to my area of interest. If you change article content without prior discussion and I feel there is no editorial basis for your content change, I might revert you again. You, of course, are free to revert any such undiscussed content changes on my part as well. On the other hand, prior discussion will avoid future misunderstandings. Don't take it personally. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I do apologize for having missed your article talk page entry. Regardless, next time discuss first, then change after gaining consensus, not change content and then notify. If you think something requires additional citations, request citations, don't delete content. Regardless of your contentions, barging in and deleting prior stable content will tend to be undone. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Almost forgot to mention you appear to have "followed" Biophys. Let's just stick to content. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

This is hilarious, first you want mainstream, now you don't, whenever it suits you. And poor Russians who've been affected by communist propaganda, but somehow while they lived in heavy anti-communist propaganda for last 20 years, they weren't affected by that one at all, amazing!! Must be the broken collective memory!! Something must be broken, because communism is evil and bloodthirsty! It's such a good thing there are these Baltic states who play puppet to Americans, because they remember whatever America tells them happened. While organizing SS parades, calling Nazi the liberators and trying to push Russians out of its territory, depriving them of natural human rights. Cause SS parades are mainstream! And yes, your logic is flawless, of course. Please continue to instruct me on the way to think, we Soviets have hard time to understand how capitalism is superior when our levels of production dropped to the levels of 1950-1960 after 8 years of American-suggested reforms. We need more brainwashing to really appreciate the "invisible hand". BesterRus (talk) 04:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

«Sigh». There is much in Soviet era scholarship that is of immense value, I'm sorry to inform you I'm not the one throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater (to be eaten by Stalin). As for Waffen SS parades, nothing to do with Nazism, only with the attempt to keep the Soviets from re-invading. And as for post-Soviet Russian production and reforms, blame the oligarchs who stole everything after the fall of the Soviet Union, stripping everything to the walls becoming millionaires in the process, leaving a Russia producing nothing. (It was the same in Latvia, every factory was stripped bare.) As I recall, the situation in Russia was so dismal that when someone in Moscow began manufacturing and selling T-shirts it made the evening news in the west. It's sad you've chosen to express pride in your heritage (an educated guess) by attacking others. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:01, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Given your air of familiarity and derision in expressing knowledge of my (alleged) views, I'm starting to wonder if we've crossed Wiki-paths before. Oh, well, perhaps I just bring out the best (no pun intended) in people. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:12, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm meeting you for the first time. The reason I know your point of view by heart is because it's not special. Example - I've met two Latvians girls last week who came here for Erasmus (I live in Belgium). I discussed USSR with one, she had a very positive opinion about it, saying most people in Latvia miss it. The other girl, when asked if she spoke Russian, started yelling "what! don't talk to me about Russians, I hate them, don't associate me with Russians!", almost starting a hysteria... This is what anti-communist rhetoric does to some people, creating a caste of anti-communists who can't examine their history without bias, who feel pure hatred towards another nation. This is nothing new, we've got people like that in Russia as well (Russians who hate Russians...), I'm sure you know what derogative name they've earned in the popular opinion. Editing wikipedia irresponsibly (without providing proof of guilt beyond doubt) is what makes more people join their ranks.

As for SS marches and it supposedly having nothing to do with the Nazis, I'm not 8 years old, I know the importance of symbolism. The hammer and the sickle have been banned in Georgia because of their anti-communist ideology, Nazi symbols banned in Germany... SS marches applauded in Baltic states..! Shame of Europe, they call it. The president of Lithuania fought side by side with the Nazis, then lived in USA. Estonian president is an American citizen, who grew in America. Want a quote of that democratic president? "Если Россия когда-нибудь признает пакт Молотова—Риббентропа неправильным, ей придется признать и последствия "оккупации". А тогда защита национальных меньшинств в странах Балтии станет бессмысленной". Pretty straightforward, isn't it? Minorities should have rights, except if it's Russian minorities... Still think the SS marches hold no meaning? I don't mind Baltic states leaving Russian Empire and Soviet Union, all nations should have this freedom of choice. I don't mind Baltic states talking badly about Soviet presence in your countries, even if the Soviets built thousands of schools and hospitals, brought in the best specialists, helped Baltic states form your own specialists,... That is gray area depending on an individual's value ladder. What isn't clear to me is why your foreign policy is openly anti-Russian in any matter, why you oppress Russian citizens that live in your countries and lived there for a very long time, there is no excuse for that, basing it on anti-soviet hatred doesn't make it alright, reading heavily biased anti-soviet books and fueling your hatred isn't okay. Your leaders and political elite are guiding your people into Nazi ideology that will be followed by a certain demise. And you applaud it. BesterRus (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you don't know me at all then. Your ranting and railing ignores that the Soviet Union invaded and crushed the Baltics, unprovoked. Yes, I regularly read about "the shame of Europe," it makes for good rhetoric in domestic politics to denounce your opposition by association—unfortunately, like you, those politicians are interested neither in history nor facts, only in attack tactics.

Speaking of Latvia, Russians are "oppressed" only in the rhetoric of those politicians who build their career on persuading their constituency that said constituency are powerless without them. (Happens all the time in the U.S. too, nothing special there.) Oppression? Yes, I'm reminded of the Russian woman who called in to a radio show to complain about oppression, she was going to the embassy to complain the next morning. The offense? The Latvian landlord of her flat wouldn't give her a second parking spot for her second Mercedes. The majority of Latvian Russophones have long since become citizens. The point? There are Latvians and Russians who make wonderful Latvian citizens and Latvians and Russians who make the worst of citizens. It has absolutely nothing to do whether the person is Latvian or Russian.

You paint everything as polarized extremes. That only reflects back on yourself and your axe grinding perspective, not reality. As for Estonian politicians quoted in Russian, Russia doesn't acknowledge occupation, as the (by choice) legal successor of the Soviet Union, Russia would be liable. Can't have all that oil revenue going to Soviet victims, now can we? Russia wants all the glory, building ever more grandiose monuments to the Great Patriotic War, but accepts none of the responsibility for the crimes of the Soviet legacy, not regarding the peoples and territories the USSR subjugated, not even regarding its own citizens. Even Ghaddafi shared oil revenue with every citizen of Libya ($500/month). But in Russia, oil just goes to make the wealthy wealthier.

At least I now know why you've been harping on Nazis (insisting all the while you're not), bringing them up out of nowhere in discussions of unrelated topics. Don't suggest I have leaders pursuing Nazi ideology again. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh that story of a parking spot!!! Nice! Like that's the peak of Russian problems in the Baltic states... http://ru.wikipedia.org/Русские_в_странах_Прибалтики#.D0.94.D0.B8.D1.81.D0.BA.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BC.D0.B8.D0.BD.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.8F ... And about Soviet "occupation", just a quick question, since you're such an expert. When you served under Hitler, fought alongside with the Nazis, served as prison guards in concentration camps where Jews, Russians and other Untermenschen alike were burned and gassed, did you pay reparations for that?.... And now you want Russian oil. I see what all this is about then.

P.S. a little present for you, I'm sure you'll be happy to print it and show it to all you friends http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6767/7477777.jpg BesterRus (talk) 11:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Communal memory survey

I took a quick look at the main page. Having some experience in surveys, the questions are not worded in a non-neutral manner; they are worded in a manner guaranteed (whether intended or not) to garner the most votes against objective reconcilement with the past. If you like, we can discuss the survey when I've had a chance to review. I often find it's more constructive to discuss and debate a topic when it's not directly related to article content. Do let me know if you have any interest. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Download Суд Времени, you'll see how many vote for what ideas. Same results. Useless attempts to distort reality from your part. BesterRus (talk) 04:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. Clearly (my perspective) you have no serious interest in the study of history or of the formation of popular opinion or communal memory—or that these all, while closely intertwined, are not the same. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)