Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:16, 24 October 2011

Welcome and introduction

Hi, Papaursa. This is NOT some automated message...it's from a real person by golly! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I'm glad you've made an account! Thanks for joining; you're on your way to making some great contributions.

Because I've noticed you've just joined, I wanted to give you a few tips to get you started. If you have any questions, please talk to us. Any questions, nothing is too silly (we've heard them all). The tips below should help you to get started too. Best of luck! JoeSmack 23:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody can edit; just go to an article and edit it. Be Bold, but please don't put silly stuff in - it will be removed very quickly, and will annoy people. Besides that, you shouldn't feel nervous or anything about a good-willed contribution. If you're concerned, talk to us. Play in your user area. For example, create User:Papaursa/test. If you feel nervous, feel free to talk to us. When you're ready, start your first article using the Article Wizard. You don't HAVE to use it, but for your first article it really helps. It should be about something well-known, and it will need references. If you'd like more guidance, you guessed it, talk to us. Good luck with editing; please drop me a line some time on my own talk page. There's lots of information below. Once again, welcome to the fantastic world of Misplaced Pages! --JoeSmack 23:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

P.S. If you just feel like poking around, Misplaced Pages:Help is a good place to start. :)

Deletion review for Euclid D. Farnham

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Euclid D. Farnham. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Mickmaguire (talk) 17:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for taking the initiative in updating the Tim Cartmell article according to the AfD discussion. Now the article can be expanded as sourced information becomes available. Cheers, Jezebel'sPonyo 18:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Opinion change

I'd suggest you use the strike though on your whole comment @ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ryuichi Murata as at the moment it says "keep Subject fails WP:MANOTE" which is a little confusing, especially with the line underneath. --Nate/_c 10:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Martial arts article review

Hello Papaursa, I was going to post this message the other day (before you posted on WPMA's discussion page), but didn't get around to it until now. I just wanted to say that I think you are doing good work with the article review. A project like this needs people to keep it going steadily, and I believe you are doing just that. (I contribute when I can, but the article review is not the highest item on my priority list.) Thanks for your work on this. Janggeom (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

About Ivan Titenkov

Hi Papaursa, could you teach me about Ivan Titenkov? You had participated in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ivan Titenkov, aren't you? Doesn't this case correspond to WP:CSD#G4? Thanks! --Akira Kouchiyama 00:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It probably does qualify for WP:CSD#G4 since it's still an unreferenced article about the same person. Go ahead and nominate it for speedy deletion. If it fails you can always nominate it as an WP:AFD. Papaursa (talk) 00:43, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind reply! I have watched the argument of this user and an administrator in the Russian Misplaced Pages. It is almost certain that he has not got permission of files. So I gave priority to tagging the file. Thanks again! --Akira Kouchiyama 03:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

UCMMA

Seriously go get a life mate, I'm just trying to help expand knowledge of a promotion of my favourite sport slightly, what is your goal in what your doing?

Notability of Joe Thambu

Hi, you flagged Joe Thambu for questionable notability. I'm sure you're aware martial artists tend not to be the subject of formal academic writing until late in life, or after their death. I do know of a number of independent magazine articles I can dig up to establish notability for Joe Thambu. You reckon these will do? Cheers Jls aikido (talk) 06:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

If you can source independent articles that focus on him (rather than just a passing mention), then that will probably be sufficient. WP:GNG says that multiple independent references are necessary, but it doesn't require the sources to be "formal academic writing". If you're going to edit martial arts articles you should take a look at WP:MANOTE. Welcome to Misplaced Pages and I hope you'll be an active contributer to the martial arts project.

Shōrin-ryū Kishaba Juku

Why don't you have a user page? A blank one will do. Usually when the userid is red ... the user is no longer on wikipedie. But the reason your userid is red is because you have no user page. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 17:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I flagged it because I see nothing notable about the Academy, nor have you given any reasons it's notable. It might be better if you tried to make a page on Chokei Kishaba himself. Papaursa (talk) 17:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I have made pages for Chokei Kishaba and his younger brother Chogi Kishaba and for Katsuhiko Shinzato and Masami Chinen too. I have given a number of reasons why it is notable. There is actually one reason that I have not given that makes it truly notable because I cannot provide a reference for it because it is qualitative i.e. you have to try it to appreciate it. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You have greatly improved the original article and the other articles you mention are off to a good start. Most of them could use some additional sourcing, but at least there's at least 1 decent source for each. I'm glad you didn't give your "qualitative" reason since it's quite subjective. However, there's nothing wrong with being proud of your style. I have removed the notability tag from the original article. Papaursa (talk) 01:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks. It would have been awkward to have tried to merge this article in to the Senseis (that would have involved unnecessary repetition). Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wen-Do

I contested the prod on that article. If you look in the history, I started to nom it for AfD back in Feb, but I found a couple of good sources for it. I just haven't gotten around to adding them. I'll try to get to it soon. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I did see your comment, but the only source given wasn't independent and I was wondering what you were referring to. I was just hunting martial arts articles of questionable notability without reliable sourcing and this article qualified. Papaursa (talk) 01:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

• Here are a couple: , (about a man who sued because they only teach women), , (kind of trivial, but gives some background on it too), , (one of the better ones), (about govt funds being used to pay for it), , , , . There are more, but I think this is probably enough to get it past notability :) Niteshift36 (talk) 05:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

New Japan Kickboxing Federation

Removed tags of speedy deletion on the page. Its a notable article on Martial Arts/Kickboxing project.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 06:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Notability at WP:MMA

I've noticed a comment you left on one of the AFDs. I'd be happy to discuss how we can go about establishing some notability guidelines for MMA, if you'd be so happy as to participate. If so (and don't feel obliged btw), what would you recommend we do first? Ideally, I'd want to involve a few people, but that's difficult considering there are very few regular MMA editors on the wiki and a lot of discussion on WP:MMA shut down very quickly due to the lack of participation. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I find that participating in the martial arts project is pretty time consuming. That said, I'd be willing to put my 2 cents in on MMA notability guidelines. I doubt I'll ever be much of a contributor to MMA articles (I'm not that big a fan), but establishing some guidelines seems like a worthwhile activity. It's clear you and I have different ideas about what makes someone a professional, so perhaps that's a good starting point for discussion. Also, what events are notable--UFC and PRIDE are, what about Strikeforce and WEC? Which European and Asian promotions qualify? Does MMA have to include groundwork? Most people think so, but others would argue any competion that involves multiple traditional martial arts, like sanda, would qualify. I also feel that the results of every event don't need their own article. Papaursa (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, that's fair enough if you're not a big fan, but if you're willing to help and discuss, that would be a big benefit. I'm going to start a discussion at WP:MMA in about 10 minutes. Just bear with me whilst I verbalise my thoughts. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Tristão da Cunha (aikidoka)

Hello Papaursa. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Tristão da Cunha (aikidoka), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: The article makes a credible assertion of importance or significance, sufficient to pass A7. According to the article, he "introduced traditional aikido in Portugal". Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Fumio Akimoto

Hello Papaursa. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Fumio Akimoto, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: The article makes a credible assertion of importance or significance, sufficient to pass A7. According to the article, he attained the highest rank of his day. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Fabiano Scherner BLPPROD

I noticed that you BLPPRODded Fabiano Scherner as a new unreferenced BLP. I did some checking and discovered that the article was not newly created; in fact, it has been here since May 2008. The page was therefore not eligible to be BLPPRODded, since it is only intended to be used on articles created after March 18, 2010. With this in mind, I removed the tag. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

You're right, that was my error. I must have looked at the bottom of the history page and thought that was the only page. Papaursa (talk) 22:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Additional tool to help with sources

Black belt magazine has released archives of many of their back issues see here it may help in getting reliable information of the less well covered martial artists and thinks such as fight records. Dwanyewest (talk) 15:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Notability of Michael Moreno

I went to start the AFD on this article Michael Moreno from the week of May 19th. I was surprised at the number of references and the claims "He is the chief instructor of American Aikikai Federation as well as one of its founders. and is the chairman and technical director of Federacion Mexicana de Aikido ".

This article has been speedied and restored 4 times. It has survived one AFD Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Moreno.

Although the notability is borderline, I don't think the article is clearly fluff. Could I ask you to put it up for AFD? Thanks! jmcw (talk) 11:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

MA Barnstar

		The Martial Arts Barnstar
		I, Janggeom (talk), hereby award Papaursa the Martial Arts Barnstar for valued contributions to WikiProject Martial Arts. Your contributions in the Article Review have helped improve Misplaced Pages significantly. Thank you for your efforts. Awarded 23 July 2010

Thank you. Papaursa (talk) 22:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

BLPPROD

Hi Papaursa. I couldn't help noticing your concern over the use of the WP:BLPPROD. I would just like to confirm WereSpielChequers' reply to you. We both took place in the long discussions that developed it. the rule, strange as it seems, is simple:

• If there are any links anywhere on the page to anywhere (except another Misplaced Pages page) that mention the subject, then the BLPPROD annot be used.
• Any single WP:RS reliable source that is added to the page is enough to allow removal of the BLPPROD. This does however still leave the article open to the possiblity of a standard WP:PROD, or being sent to WP:AfD.

Not all the people who helped developed the policy were happy with the outcome, but we have to live with it, at least for the time being. After six months or so of use (around January 2011), the BLPPROD will come up for review again for possible improvement and will be most welcome to voice your opinion there.--Kudpung (talk) 01:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. That's not how I read the policy and I've seen it applied differently so apparently I'm not the only one confused. I wasn't aware of the previous discussion, but hopefully I can contribute when the topic comes up again. Papaursa (talk) 23:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)h

It's understandable. When policies that have been crafted finally get drafted, what results is often a bit confusing. The previous RfC was huge, it took several months and at the beginning over 400 editors participated. About ten or fifteen editors did the final mopping up and conluding the consensus that was reached. There's also the fact that some people don't agree with our policies and simply do whatever they want. It gets put right of course. --Kudpung (talk) 02:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Ketsugo jujutsu

In June you PRODded this, and it was deleted. Undeletion has now been requested at WP:REFUND so per WP:DEL#Proposed deletion I have restored it, and now notify you in case you wish to consider taking it to AfD. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Thai & Kickbox SuperLeague

Hi - you recently added some text some text talking about notability outline and that I need references. This is the first stand topic I have ever created so I would appreciate some more specific info on what you consider a good reference. As far as I can see the SuperLeague website is the most reliable reference out there and most of my page relies on information on their rules, fighters and event results. I have created a large number of pages related to SuperLeague, so I would really not want it to all be deleted. Thanks. jsmith006 (talk) 16:20, 03 January 2010

Congratulations on your first new article. The SuperLeague website is not considered a good reference because it is not independent of the topic. I suggest you look at WP:RS to get a better understanding of what makes a good source. The primary tag that I inserted shows that the article has no independent sources and that is a requirement if you don't want to see your article deleted (see WP:V). I did see you created articles on their events and I believe they should be removed. That's my personal opinion based on WP:N which states that "routine news coverage such as press releases, public announcements, sports coverage" is not considered notable and that's all those event pages are. I know I've thrown a lot at you, but you need to understand the Misplaced Pages policies that other editors wiil apply when they look at your article. If you have questions, let me know. You can also post them on the talk page of the martial arts project Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Martial arts. Hope this is helpful to you. Papaursa (talk) 23:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I've added some additional references for the main SuperLeague page and I will add additional references for each event where possible. I have still seen plenty of wikipedia articles which use the same sort of referencing that I have used which in turn have not had tags added but will try and get it sorted. Thanks for your help. jsmith006 (talk) 10:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

It still seems to lack independent sources--just press releases and the organization's web page. You're right that other articles exist with poor sourcing (or none at all), but that doesn't make it correct or prevent them from being deleted if someone wants to. Papaursa (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

While I appreciate your concerns with the SuperLeague page and agree that it could be better referenced it’s official website seems a good source (I agree it could be biased in favour of the organization but I do not see how listing details of events, rules etc affects this). In terms of other articles I notice that a lot of the K-1 pages (many of which I have contributed to - urghh) use the K-1 official website for a large proportion of information – does this mean that the majority of the K-1 results pages should be considered for deletion? In terms of SuperLeague results I have added as much external information (i.e. non SuperLeague affiliated information) as I can i.e. Iron Life Magazine etc – is this okay or is this not considered an independent source? I feel that when listing results of sports pages the best way of doing so is using sports articles as it is a sport that we are discussing - how else I can get information on events and the results? I felt that the advantage of Misplaced Pages over other websites was that all the different kickboxing organizations, their events , fighters etc can be interconnected and also that other users can add to existing articles (or correct if need be). It was only a lack of information on events that inspired me to start creating Misplaced Pages pages in the first place. I agree that if information is totally incorrect or obscure, badly written or obscene, then it should be removed, but I do not feel that any of these factors affect the pages I have created. On the other hand I appreciate your feedback and want to get articles as accurate as I possibly can. Thanks. jsmith006 (talk) 12:28, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

As regards K-1 and MMA--if I were king I would delete most (if not all) of the individual event websites. However, I know this would be met with bitter resistance and so I don't bother to try, even though I believe WP policy would support me. I had a signficant role in drafting the MMA notability rules (WP:MMANOT), so I have some idea of what will and will not be supported. I agree with WP's advantage of linking things, but I doubt you'll ever convince me that individual events pass WP:N. I do appreciate your efforts to make the articles well referenced. I would also claim that the fact that the league went bankrupt quickly would argue against its notability (and especially against the notability of its individual events) since it obviously didn't generate enough interest to survive. Papaursa (talk) 00:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok while we'll agree to disagree about the events pages (which I think are extremely important) you have put across your points well and in a considerate manner - so thank you for that. As far as SuperLeague is concerned the amount of TV interest in the organization and the calibre of some of the fighters involved in events such as Albert Kraus, Dmitry Shakuta, John Wayne Parr et al, suggests that it was on its way to being a real player on the kickboxing global circuit (I'm thinking that European events would have finally branched out to global if it had keep its momentum). I guess over reliance on one key sponsor spelt the end of the organization, which only being three years old had not got the brand regonition that other organizations like K-1, plus global recession blah blah blah. I'll keep trying to get the information and turn this thing around. I believe that the fight reports (I know you don't like em) are okay as I have used a variety of sources but the main page will need work. If you have the time I would really appreciate some concrete examples of what you consider a good source (just link me to a page that you know uses them or an external link would do). Thanks.jsmith006 (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I've been around long enough to see a lot of good ideas and fighters involved with organizations that died early on (e.g., Chuck Norris's World Combat League) and this appears to be another one. I would say you need to make sure the main article can withstand a deletion challenge, because if it is deleted there is no way to claim the individual events are notable. As far as good sources go, I'll refer you to WP:RS. Some examples of good sources would be the New York Times reporting on how the SuperLeague is a huge hit in Europe or a book describing it as a significant Muay Thai organization. Make sure they're published by a well regarded publisher or organization. With the growth of vanity publishers this has become more important. People or organizations directly connected to the subject are never considered reliable sources. That doesn't mean you can't use them, but if you can't find independent sources then your article has a good chance of getting deleted. Hope this helps. Papaursa (talk) 20:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Modern Sports Karate

Just a note that I undeleted this article per a request at WP:REFUND by the article's creator. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion converted to PROD: Chuck Jeffreys

Hello Papaursa, and thanks for patrolling new pages! I am just letting you know that I have converted the speedy deletion tag that you placed on Chuck Jeffreys to a proposed deletion tag. The speedy deletion criteria are extremely narrow to protect the encyclopedia, and do not fit the page in question. You may wish to review the Criteria for Speedy Deletion before tagging further pages. Thank you. Dusti 06:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Notability of Kung Fu To'a

Hello Papaursa. I'm new to Misplaced Pages. Could you please explain why you added the notability tag to the article Kung Fu To'a again, although on the discussion page other users have confirmed that the style can be considered notable? Thanks for helping. Drindy (talk) 11:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

The notability tag was added because the article gives no independent sources that talk about this style. To be considered notable for Misplaced Pages requires significant coverage by sources that are not connected to the subject of the article. I suggest you look at the notability guidelines at WP:N. Comments by users do not prove notability. Papaursa (talk) 05:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

IMAF

I do not believe that is still an active organization. I think that it split into 2 groups about 10 years ago when the founder died. That said, Black Belt Magazine and Inside Kung Fu gave Remy and IMAF a lot of writeups in the 70's and 80's. I'll see what I can find tonight.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Both groups claim to be the true successors of Remy Presas and I couldn't find any independent sources. I'm thinking this article should be merged into Remy Presas. Papaursa (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

That would be my reccomendation, it's not like it was an organization that was around for several hundred years. I'll see what I can find to source it, and we can roll it into his article if it doesn't seem notable enough to stand on its own.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 23:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Hunt

• Brandon Hunt · ( talk | logs | history | links | watch | afd ) ·

Just a heads up that I restored this per a request at WP:REFUND. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:04, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I have put the article up for AfD. Papaursa (talk) 01:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

CSD notification

The page Master Fighters Championship looks like it may be a valid CSD, but I prefer not to delete a page unless the creator has been notified. I understand that sometimes automated tools fail to do the notification for some reason. Not sure if that was the case, but could you make the notification?SPhilbrickT 18:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

He's been notified and given my reasons. I also pointed him to the MMA notability guidelines (WP:MMANOT). Papaursa (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Re:Thai-Boxing at W.A.K.O.

This series of pages was created before this thing blew up (I had everything in Sandbox and had already created main page). I was a bit bad and did another page (WAKO Varna) but take your point. If I create anything new it'll be fighter pages or upcoming It's Showtime events. I agree that creating pages like this could probably inflame situation so thanks for your advice. Enjoy the day. jsmith006 (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2011

Nomination of Genbukan for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Genbukan is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Genbukan until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. jmcw (talk) 09:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

K-1 World Grand Prix 2007 in Amsterdam

Past AfD's have indicated that just having a world title "fight" does not confer notability, so the article sill needs better sourcing. Mtking 22:11, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I removed the notability tag because I believe the event to be notable (a world title fight for the planet's major professional kickboxing organization), but I didn't remove the reference tag. It clearly needs better sources. Papaursa (talk) 22:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• WikiProject Martial arts participants