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Mediation Cabal Case

Hello. I am the mediator who has responded to the request for mediation by User:Toure. I think that this situation is getting close to an edit war, but I hope that I can help settle things down and help both parties come to an agreement. First, I would like to establish my neutrality:

• I come from the UK, and have never read any of Toure's published work, in novel, newspaper, or magazine form.

• Neither have I ever seen Toure on TV.

• From the infomation in the article, I don't even have the same taste in music.

I hope that this helps to verify my neutrality.

Now then, I would like to draw both of your attention to WP:BLP, which is a policy on wikipedia which governs the rules about biographies of living people. If you look at the 'Presumption in favor of privacy' section on the page, the first line states,

• Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy.

It also goes on to say:

• Material from primary sources should generally not be used. For example, public records may include personal details such as home value, outcomes of civil court cases, traffic citations, arrest records, and vehicles and real estate owned. Use material only from reliable third-party sources.

and

• ...editors should exercise restraint and include only information relevant to their notability.

May I ask, with this in mind, why, 84.100.38.28, you feel that adding Toure's last name is relevent or important to the article? Thε Halo 14:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This case is now closed, due to inactivity. I would suggest, as I ave written above, that adding Toure's last name is a violation of WP:BLP, and therefore not be put into the article. Thε Halo 11:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus 23:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed move

• Oppose. Need reasons why that spelling should be used. Also, xomeone could help proposer of move by creating proper discussion section. Gene Nygaard 09:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I'd agree with Gene Nygaard on this one. There seems little reason for the move. Thε Halo 10:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)>

• Support if this is what Toure/é himself uses, presumably to indicate how his name is to be pronounced (assuming it is meant to be pronounced "Tour-ray" or the like!)  Regards, David Kernow 03:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral The personality is referred to as "Touré" through the entire article. Title must conform with content. However, I could not verify which one is the correct form (Google and Yahoo render virtually nil results for both forms +).--Húsönd 00:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Support, per Recury.--Húsönd 00:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support, "Touré" is the form he uses on his website. Recury 16:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support "Touré and Toure are different names with different pronunciations. Omitting the accent makes as much a difference as omitting a letter. Touré is the proper spelling of Touré's given name. Toure is an incorrect spelling, though it occurs frequently because many people don't know how to add accents on a computer. At the time the page about Touré was written the Touré page seemed taken and out of respect to the larger Misplaced Pages mission, the page labelled Touré was not disrupted. However, the page about Touré is incorrect until the page is named Touré. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toure (talk • contribs)
• Support Seeing as Toure wants it to be called Touré... Thε Halo 19:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Surname

I have removed Toure's surname from the article for now. Seeing as this falls under the BLP policy, we should take extra care in protecting people's personal information, especially when they have stated that they don't want that information known. I have raised the issue on the BLP noticeboard, so we should receive some feed back and community consensus as to what to do soon. Until that time, please, do not add Toure's last name to the article. Thanks. Thε Halo 09:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see from the discussion on the BLP noticeboard, it is believed that Touré's last name is not relievent to his notability, so there is no need for it to be put into the article. Thε Halo 16:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Cher, Beyonce and many others go by just 1 public name but their surnames are still in their wikipedia pages. So why is the rule different for Toure ? I think it should be this "Toure (born Toure Neblett in 1970 in Massachusestts) "in parentheses in the lead /intro sentence. 173.79.75.65 (talk) 20:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages will withhold certain personal information of biographical subjects in their articles, such as their real names, the names of their family members, dates of birth, and places of residence, if the subject requests it, out of concerns relating to things like privacy, identity theft, etc, even if that information is found within reliable sources cited in the article. There is much precedent for this, and I've been involved in a number of these matters, during which I've sought Jimmy Wales' counsel, and the prevailing wisdom has always been to respect these wishes if the subject requests it. Examples include Star Wars Kid, which does not mention that subject's real name, even though the sources cited in the article do so. Another example was Brian Peppers, whose entire article was deleted, for similar reasons. Touré has requested that his birth surname not be used in his article, and so we will respect that, as per this practice. Nightscream (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Please don't edit my comments. I find that disrespectful.
Did Toure say that it was a reason of identity theft or the other reasons that you gave? Or he just wants a one name moniker? Star Wars Kid isnt a good example as his name here is dangerous as he was bullied, ridiculed, and had to seek medical attention for mental health reasons. Brian Pepper to is not similiar at all. He had an article because of his grotesque face. Toure is a journalist, not a teen being made fun of, not a man with bulging eyes and a cranio facial disorder. I read this http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_personal_information_and_using_primary_sources and it says take out the birthdate not the name. But since you say you have worked Jimbo, please direct me to that portion of WP BLP policy. with As with my previous exmaples, if Cher and Beyonce were to ask that Cher Sarkisian and Beyonce Knowles be removed, you are saying that Jimbo says to do so? What about Barack Obama ? Would WP remove his middle name, last name, birthdate, family names, even though all this information is traceable via website, geneology research, govt war records, govt census records, and more ? This is an encyclopedia of facts, not an encyclopediua of what they want us to know. 173.79.75.65 (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If in the public space, and if that space is a reliable space, then it can be represented here. If that information of his surname comes from insider info, then that is a problem. However, if his name is mentioned in a reliable source per wiki Bio policy I do not think it is wiki job to help Hollywood out and maintain secrets. We should even add a note that he has issue with his surname. Its not like Darth Vader revealing his surname is Skywalker.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I will note that there is an additional discussion on this topic going on at User talk:Jimbo Wales#Touré. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Beyonce Knowles and Barack Obama's surname are already widely known. Toure's is not. Cher's is not commonly known, but it's well-documented enough that I can't see the point of omitting it. In any event, what I understood from previous discussion with people like Jimmy Wales is that Misplaced Pages will respect such requests, but I now see that specifics and distinctions are employed in the matter. Nightscream (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

far more worrying than this name issue, which has low weight (either way) and can only really be used in his "bio section" is the unverifiable content which is backup by no R.S. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

That is a problem, and unless some sources can be found that section needs to go. Getting back to the name thing, I don't see any good reason not to include his name. It seems to me that a person's birth name is part of the historical record. It's not "negative information" in any real sense. Many many people adopt pen names or stage names, sometimes to seem more sporty or interesting or sexy or edgy, sometimes to hide their ethnicity or origins or just be more pronounceable, sometimes for political or religious reasons. It seems to me likely that Touré Neblet is one of these cases. From Cary Grant to Alice Cooper to Connie Mack to Bono to Sting and on and on. Probably the majority of rap musicians. This is fine, but the fact that they've done so becomes part of record, and I'm sure that all those people have their birth names in their articles.

The examples of B. P. and the Star Wars Kid aren't germane at all. I was one of the people who's was very adamant about not having an article on B. P., and I don't like it that this is being used to justify the Touré Neblet case. It's entirely different.

For one thing, Touré Neblet has chosen to be in the public eye. If you do that, basic non-controversial and non-negative biographical information, such as your birthplace and where you went to school and so forth are going to become part of the historical record.

Jimbo often has a good take on these things, and he says: "Thoughtful editorial judgment to balance valid competing concerns is, as almost always, the right way forward... I could be swayed towards omission if: there is a physical danger to family members, there is doubt about the sourcing, there is a sense that notability happened to the person rather than being sought, etc. I could be swayed towards inclusion if: there are plenty of reliable sources, there is no obvious safety or privacy issue, the person has deliberately sought fame". That's just his opinion, but I think that's about right.

If someone can up with a good reason not include the person's name, fine. I haven't seen any. Absent that, I'm restoring the name. If someone wants to revert this, fine, but then, absent any new information or argument, the best next step would be an RfC, I think. Herostratus (talk) 15:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Herostratus on this myself; we don't hide pertinent information just because the subject doesn't like it, and the subject's real name is certainly pertinent to the subject. I think Herostratus hit the nail on the head; his post pretty much echoes my thoughts. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Normally, I'm all for supporting reasonable requests for the protection of privacy, but that's not what we're dealing with here. A quote from the author: "As previously stated that name is not part of the Toure story." This is a company, Touré Inc., trying to enforce its brand. Well, they can do that somewhere else. I support the inclusion of the name. Favonian (talk) 21:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk), Toure's name is on the internet from various RS not from a insider info. This is an encyclopedia so why is a notation that toure wants his surname kept off the article neccesary? 173.79.75.65 (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello Herostratus, I agree that his name is part of his historical record. I very much agree about Star Wars Kid and Brian P not being good examples as they became infamous and are not famous, there is a HUGE difference. Toure is a media personality on tv, on radio, writing books, speeches, commentaries, etc. Those two shouldnt be used to justify hiding Toure's surname. You PERFECTLY said this :

For one thing, Touré Neblet has chosen to be in the public eye. If you do that, basic non-controversial and non-negative biographical information, such as your birthplace and where you went to school and so forth are going to become part of the historical record.

There are reliable sources for his surname so it should be included in the article. 173.79.75.65 (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I agree. But. It's really a very minor matter. And the person has requested Jimbo to consider it, and let's how that goes. There are times to stand on principle, but this isn't one of them. And besides, "Don't cause an unoffending person genuine distress for very small benefit" is also a good principle -- not only on Misplaced Pages, but in life. Herostratus (talk)

Hello Herostratus, Is it a small matter? If people are able to influence articles based on emailing jimbo heartfelt emails & using keywords like "genuine distress", we have a huge problem. It is a small matter. WP doesnt want to go back to the days when it was called not reputable, not legit, so all info should be the best. It is a fact what his name is, from vital statistics... so how is that a small minor matter? I dont want to make Toure mad but his name is mentioned only briefly as a statement of fact. We re not going into detail of his family history. This is an encyclopedia and it has to have full information. Why he is distressed over his name is hiw own problem. I dont think it is a small benefit, this encyclopedia being accurate is a big benefit. 173.79.75.65 (talk) 18:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Yes, it is a small matter, 173.79.75.65. It would be a problem if 1) this was a constant, regular occurrence or 2) it was in any way important. Neither of these is true, so I'd recommend not worrying about it. I really don't think this is going to send us spinning down into a living hell of being considered illegitimate. Not all slopes are slippery, and not every tiny thing has to be an occasion for standing on principle. Herostratus (talk) 03:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you happen to know why exactly it is bad for people to know Toure's surname? Considering what Jimbo wrote below, it seems to be a catastrophe on par of revealing someone's social security number or bank password or something. Why does he care if people know his surname? Just wondering if you or anyone knows. Silverseren 06:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I asked a couple of days ago on Jimmy's talk page if he had any follow up comments or remarks; he hasn't replied, but I can try pinging him again—he noted at the time of the original discussion that he was going to be busy for a week or so, and I think it's fair to say that he has a number of demands on his time. Jimbo rightly points out that you can't put toothpaste back in the tube, and there's no urgent rush here.

Nevertheless, absent any clarification, I would have some difficulty with permanently redacting this individual's surname. Persuant to the previous discussion on Jimbo's talk page, it appears that – however the name might have gotten 'into the wild' in the first place – it has since been included in press releases promoting Touré, and remains on the website of the company that distributes one of his television programs. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

May I ask why it is important to include it? Press releases aren't usually considered reliable sources, and the subject has indicated that the press release went out in error and that he objected to it. The name only became public, if I understand the story, as a matter of theft of information.

His reasons for not wanting the name known are personal and, to put it in my own words, spiritual and historic. The name is not "real" as it was assigned to his slave forefathers, and he has rejected it at a deep personal level. I think as a matter of human dignity we need a good reason to include it under these circumstances.

I am still in conversation with him (though slowly, due to both being quite busy) about alternatives in case we can't come to consensus here not to include it. So far I don't think I have any good ideas. But one thing I hope we don't have is a general attitude to "stick it to him" because we have access to sources. One of his arguments, which is surely valid, is that whatever is in Misplaced Pages will be repeated by journalists in the future. I think including it without explanation in the lede would be a really really bad idea - but I feel personally more comfortable (he doesn't, as far as I can tell) with it in the body of the article with a full explanation of why he doesn't use the name and doesn't like it to be used.

I think the most important principle here should be one of moving slowly and thoughtfully. There's no deadline. Let's have a reflective and thoughtful conversation about it for awhile, and I'll keep talking to Touré.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Request for respectful delay

The subject of this article has written me a very kind and thoughtful and poignant email about the surname issue, and we are discussing the issue. As a matter of good WP:BLP practice and courtesy and human dignity, I have removed the alleged surname from the article, possibly temporarily. I've let him know that due to various other work and personal commitments, I won't be able to look at this in detail until next week. I hope that everyone will give me time to work with the subject and to study the situation in more detail.

One point that he makes is absolutely true: Misplaced Pages is influential, and if we have the name, it will randomly start to pop up in press accounts. You can't unscramble an egg. So my view is that while we take the time to explore the issue fully, we should err on the side of caution and not publish the name in the article. He's worked very hard to distance himself from his surname, and it seems that it only leaked into the public through an act of maliciousness and information theft.

I don't have all the information yet, and probably wouldn't feel comfortable speaking publicly about all the details if I did, but I'm persuaded by his kind and thoughtful letter, and by the fact that nothing important *at all* from a Misplaced Pages perspective hinges on this, that we should take this slowly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look into this, Jimmy. Nightscream (talk) 00:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Very well. Herostratus (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

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