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BLP gossip

Are these edits appropriate ? This editor is removing information sources to reliable sources and claiming "unnecessary gossip". Surely its relevant to mention that somebody was with somebody for 4 years? Would you fail to mention Bennifer in the Ben Affleck and J-Lo articles for instance?I mean the Ben Affleck article mentions relationships he had for just 2 years and says things like "Despite a wedding planned for September 14, the couple broke up in 2004, both blaming the media attention - including an alleged incident in which Affleck partied with Christian Slater and some lap dancers in Vancouver." It is a Good Article and if anything that is far more "gossipy" than the articles he's removing stuff from every day. I think its very relevant to mention long term relationships if covered in multiple reliable sources. Its different if it is a brief fling. Any thoughts because this editor removes information from every actor article even if well-sourced and encyclopedic.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Related discussions have been going on for months (see or for recent examples), and there's a strong trend, probably amounting to consensus, that Misplaced Pages is not a repository for celebrity "dating" histories, and that a greater level of significance other than "reported in the press" is required. No one's trying to write "Bennifer"-class relationships out of Misplaced Pages. What we object to is treating every "celebrity relationship" as though it was (nearly) as noteworthy as "Bennifer". As WP:IINFO, which is policy, says, "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia"; WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, part of the same policy, says "routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia."

And many of these dating "histories" are quite dreadfully sourced. The very first article where Dr. Blofeld objects above to my edits, Paula Barbieri is a useful test case. There are four sources cited. The first, supporting a claim that Barbieri dated actor Dolph Lundgren, is from a book about convicted felon Jack Abramoff, states that "Abramoff also claims that Lundgren's girlfriend at the time was not Grace Jones, but model Paula Barbieri, O. J. Simpson's future girlfriend." The book presents this only as an unconfirmed allegation, no better than gossip, and it is exactly the sort of thing that WP:BLP and WP:RS call on us not to present as fact. The second source is a book by Dominick Dunne, and when one tracks down the actual text beyond the GBooks snippet , it again proves to be not a statement of fact, but Dunne presenting examples of gossip he's heard about Barbieri. The third source is NNDB, by consensus not reliable enough for BLP use. The fourth source is the worst of all, the gossip column in New York magazine, and it is nothing but anonymous and quite vague innuendo, followed by an on-the-record denial from an attorney for one of those involved. If the actual title of the piece, "When the Homicidal Maniac's Away", had been cited in the reference, its unreliability might have been a shade more evident.

There's no exception in WP:BLP for celebrity sex lives. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

A rumour?? "my girlfriend" according to Dolph? "Celebrity sex lives" are often very important to that particular individual if it is several years. You cannot even begin to have a comprehensive "personal life" section which ignores the main components of their personal life. The Brad Pitt article mentions his early relationships and who he dated. Its also an FA. Its perfectly appropriate.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I have seen this editor decimate such info in articles that I follow too. It seems to be his mission on WP, but he goes to far in my opinion. BollyJeff || talk 20:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a TMZ ragsheet. If all you can say about a person's biography is, "she dated X", then she dated Y", then IMO a very poor job is being done with said biography. Tarc (talk) 20:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Bennifer, Brangelina, or even Posh and Becks, of course, should be mentioned. In general, non-marital and childless celebrity relationships tend to be firmly in the gossip pages. We must remember that reliable doesn't mean infallible, for example, Fox News is reliable, but we wouldn't use it as a source for party affiliations, and even in reputable sources there can be a lot of gossip and speculation about celebrities in the celebrity pages. Unless relevant to other content (such as Ryan Giggs and his affair with Imogen Thomas) or relevant as a social phenomenon (such as, for example, Brangelina), I'd personally not write about it. Sceptre 20:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

But if the section is named "Personal life" and the person she/he dates for five years and spent a great deal of time with and most most important to their personal life for so long then how is it not appropriate to mention it? Its different if it was a brief fling or one night stand but a long term relationship for several years in my view is appropriate if covered in multiple sources. And the "wikipedia is an encyclopedia" argument is ridiculous given that wikipedia is so many different things on so many different levels and way off being a formal encyclopedia in the traditional sense of the word. We have thousands of pages which violate "we are an encyclopedia not a sports almanac", "we an encyclopedia not a cartoon fansite", "we an encyclopedia not a news source". Could have fooled me. Featured article Katie Holmes says "Holmes dated her Dawson's Creek co-star Joshua Jackson early in the show's run. After the relationship ended peacefully, she told Rolling Stone, "I fell in love, I had my first love, and it was something so incredible and indescribable that I will treasure it always. And that I feel so fortunate because he's now one of my best friends." And how exactly Tarc is this any different, and it passed FAC.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting me: if it's outside the gossip pages, then it'd be fine under Misplaced Pages policy (as, for obvious reasons, gossip pages aren't reliable even if it's in an otherwise reputable source), but I would personally not write about the private lifes of people unless it was relevant to content, because I see such coverage, especially in a "personal life" section, as unencyclopedic unless limited. For example, the article Russell T Davies talks a lot about his sexuality (as it's damn important to his career) but only mentions his partner (of at least ten years) twice, the same amount of times it mentions his ex-girlfriend (who appeared in one of his shows). The article about Beyoncé Knowles only mentions her husband Jay-Z where it's relevant to her career.

As to the matter of FAs, you couldn't have picked a worse one to defend your point; the article has two issue boxes, has issues with sourcing, accuracy, and completeness, and was promoted in 2006. It wouldn't pass FA today, and would probably not pass GA. Indeed, looking at several arts BLP FAs, personal life sections tend to be rather quiet and reserved, and some articles (e.g. Mariah Carey) don't even have one despite her being in music solely because she was married to a record label executive. I would personally advise against such sections in FACs, and I think most FA writers would too. Sceptre 22:25, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Hullaballoo should be commended for convincing so many former contributors to go elsewhere to add actual information to projects. Some of my own experiences with Mr. Wolfowitz' trademark article-stalking and edit-warring can be glimpsed in such edits as , , and -- in which he repeatedly mass-removed neutral, sourced descriptions of videos, claiming they described the subject's life-- or in which he repeatedly edit-warred out a sourced claim that he simply didn't like (an "adult" performer known for her breasts). Behavior such as this from Misplaced Pages's most-admired Admins and editors (as opposed to hard-working contributors) convinced me that I had a choice to make: 1) Play the "Misplaced Pages game" or 2) go somewhere else to work on contributing sourced information-- which was my reason for coming here in the first place. Thank you again for showing me how admired game-players are, and how despised contributors are here, Mr. Wolfowitz. Dekkappai (talk) 23:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi: you seem to be confused about the purpose of the Biographies of Living People policy: it states that all information about a living person and/or in an article about a living person must adhere to the policies of verifiability, no original research, and neutral point of view. In those cases, I note that the sources in question are most likely not reliable sources, and it is the responsibility of the editor wishing to include information, especially that under the aegis of BLP, to certify that the content does meet all of our content policies. In the context of living people, any edits to remove material that violates policy are not classed as edit warring. Sceptre 00:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Dekkappai, those articles...particularly your versions of them...are quite horrid, actually. If you can't figure out why making claims such as "she has been called indispensable to any discussion of the AV" or "well-known for her large breasts" do not belong in Misplaced Pages articles, then perhaps the project can benefit by your reduced contributions. I especially like the "Hara reportedly went through a nervous breakdown following 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami and decided to retire from show business" that is present in the current revision of Saori Hara. Quality work, that. Tarc (talk) 01:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Dolly Parton article has an entire paragraph devoted to the public perception of her breasts. If it's well-sourced and relevant to her notability / useful for an encyclopedic standard of the subject, or something like that... - Wikidemon (talk) 01:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

You're going to have to explain, Tarc, exactly what is wrong with that statement in the Saori Hara article. It's a statement that is referenced and appears to be true and I think her retiring is a fairly important part of her life, why wouldn't we cover it and explain the reason for her retirement? Silverseren 04:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually Tarc, most of that is not my work, but, unlike you, I try to respect and improve on the good-faith work of others, not shit on it. Those examples are meant to show further evidence of Hullaballoo's edit-warring without discussion, such as that which instigated this thread. Thanks, however, for the snide comments typical of thugs like you, and thanks for reminding me why I left. If you don't believe a well-sourced mention of breasts in an article on an "adult" performer is appropriate, then you believe Misplaced Pages should not cover such topics. So at least have the balls to admit you believe in censorship. I doubt that is a controversial stance here anymore. A quick glance at your "contributions" shows nothing but drama boards. Right, now compare my past 500 edits made after I had completely thrown in the towel at this place. Even though I was blatantly trolling, I doubt they're much worse than your "contributions". Certainly they contributed no less information to the encyclopedia than your talk-page clowning. The potential good of this project has been destroyed by belligerent, self-important jackasses such as the user named at the top of this thread, and yourself who are allowed to drive off real contributors with impunity. Right here you insult the contributions of a longtime editor, author of over 500 articles including GAs and an FA (quick, look them up for deletion!), and Jimbo, who publicly bemoans the loss of contributors, tacitly approves. If Misplaced Pages aspires to be a source of information, then "editors" who come here merely to bolster their self-worth by shitting on real contributors-- such as Hullaballoo yourself-- are the problem. If it aspires to be a circle-jerk session for holier-than-thou thugs, such as yourself, then it is right on course. Dekkappai (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Relevant to a mature understanding of this topic is Kayfabe - a term from the world of professional wrestling, but which applies in a wider context. Individual cases require thoughtful judgment, but one thing we should be clear on: not everything in tabloids is true. A fair amount of it is staged PR fluff. Another portion of it is simply bad reporting that the stars don't complain about because it is harmless. There are often good reasons to take it all with a grain of salt.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:15, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

So what you are saying you would think is unnecessary to mention Bennifer in those articles because the papers may have got it wrong that they actually dated? Is there not a difference between a tabloid reporting a one night stand/brief fling and those who report on a relationship practically every day in every news outlet for five years? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

No, of course I'm not saying we shouldn't mention Bennifer. And I don't see any reason to think the papers got it wrong - they publicly announced their engagement, for example. That's not the same as thinking that we should chronicle every single twist and turn of celebrity romances, and that we should use thoughtful judgment to avoid simply repeating random nonsense trumped up by publicists. There is a difference, as you say, between a tabloid reporting something briefly and things for which there are reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I would consider a relationship over two years to be considered notable enough for mentioning in an article if it is covered in scores of reliable sources. I feel that it is different to the tabloid story of the day xxx was seen leaving xxxx hotel with xxxx type of thing. I have though seen Hullaballoo delete information about long -term relationships which were widely covered in reliable sources like The Guardian etc and were very well known, it just seems a bit odd to remove anything but a marriage and label it "tabloid drivel". That's what I disagree with. I'll agree that Hullabaloo is right to remove unsourced content of brief flings and that but not relationships which people were in for 4 years and is well documented in multiple reliable sources.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

James I of England

Heated debate

There are several attempts at the article discussion page and elsewhere to change the name of this article. It is, I think, quite unique in that that well-meaning editors in both England and Scotland who are usually very cooperative, have, in this case become quite contentious and unyielding in their views based on their individual countries' viewpoints.

There is no doubt that James VI was King of Scotland for many years before he became also King of England and united the two countries. Yet, the article title remains James I of England with no compromise as to even a "joint title". So far, attempts at compromise by the Scottish and other editors have gone completely unheard by many English editors. The worst and most distressing thing is that claims and accusations of nationalism have come up against the Scots as well as similar accusations going the other way to the English and it has become ugly. Unless someone who is greatly respected weighs in; I think some good editors may leave Wiki.

One of the most provacative comments I heard was that, since King James had done much work for the English Queen before he took over, that his sympathies" must have been with the English". Can you imagine a medieval Scot being sympathetic to the English over the Scots? It is absurd. I am not criticizing the individual editors as much as showing you where the obvious problem is, i.e., they cannot think "clearly" on this issue.

We need some other English speaking countries, and, I believe "The Big Gun" to weigh in on this. Unfortunately, the evidence, from an American point of view, is not being heard or completely ignored and a discussion is being quickly closed every time it is re-opened.

One of the places of the discussion is on the James I of England talk pages, but there are other sites, also http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/James_I_of_England/archive2 . Emotions are so high that I fear we will lose some well-meaning European editors if there is not some intervention. As stated and emphasized here, that intervention, in my viewpoint, must be made outside of the two countries involved and by someone commanding great respect. That, of course, would be you. Would you take some of your valuable time and look at this? Thank you either way. Mugginsx (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Right, well I live part-time in England and I edit as an ordinary editor in this general area, so I probably don't fit the right mold for someone to intervene in any commanding way. But I can say a few words of calm and hope that is helpful to some extent.

Given that the question of Scottish independence is increasingly in the news, and people may have strong feelings about it, it wouldn't surprise me to see claims of 'nationalism' coming up more often in Misplaced Pages around topics like this. I hope not, but such is the way of the world.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your comment. Unfortunately, I believe this is a unique situation and I cannot find a precedent in the monarchy series of articles. Mugginsx (talk) 19:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Would it not be possible to simply name the article James VI of Scotland / James I of England? It won't harm the accessibility of the article as we will have various redirects which will get the reader there just fine. Yes that is contra our "rules", but come on: a foolish consistency is a hobgoblin, and would we rather lose editors???

(Lots of people have used two names, but in most cases there's one main one. One example where this is not true us Sean Combs. Should his article be named "Puff Daddy" or "P. Diddy" or "Diddy"? Apparently there the compromise was to use his birth name. If we followed that precedent here we could name the article "James Stuart" I suppose, and that would be another solution.) Herostratus (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

See, therein lies the problem - the "main one" is neither or both (in this case). There is no "main king of any European country" taught in America and other English-speaking countries. While we may love to read about them and learn about them, I assure you I have never heard of any king of either country given preference in any U.S. High School or College that I have attended. I think if lots of people have used two names as you state - that is the answer. I do not believe there can be any resolution of the type that Mr. Wales suggests, i.e., except in this way. Mugginsx (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

If there were a compromise name it would surely be James I and VI. But that isn't a good solution, because the same issue would arise for James II and William III (better known as William of Orange), and similar issues would probably start popping up for dozens of other monarchs. There really isn't any viable solution over the long term except to use the most common name. (The case of Mary II illustrates the bizarreness. She happens to be both Mary II of England and Mary II of Scotland, but only because of luck: Mary I of England and Mary I of Scotland were different people.) Looie496 (talk) 15:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

(response to Mugginsx) James did not unite England & Scotland. That unification didn't occur until 1707, long after James expired. GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

This is how he officially styled himself in 1604, according to the article: King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc. He was King James VI of Scotland earlier, just as many U.S. Presidents have been Senators previously, and Kings previously Princes, and so forth, but their earlier positions aren't included in the title of their articles. If he had continued to be both James I and James VI until his death, that would be different. According to the article, he did not (although Encyclopaedia Britannica disagrees). Neither did he remain James I of England. He officially promoted himself. He was the first James of this combination of kingdoms (see James I of Aragon, Sicily, Cyprus or England), so he used James I because James VI of Great Britain wouldn't make sense. I don't know why people insist on arguing over these two titles, neither of which is his final, major title which reflects the unification. (All right, I do know and that's the problem.) Except France, of course, but some things never change. The argument should not be England vs. Scotland, but Great Britain v Great Britain, France and Ireland. I refuse to accept this as a legitimate argument (aka heated debate) until Irish and French Wikipedians are also involved. ;-) 75.60.17.153 (talk) 15:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I think we are going far afield in examples given and in anticipating problems which may or may not come up. To answer GoodDay I would say that he did indeed unite Scotland and England because he was ruler over both countries, whether or not they had their own parliaments, etc. Also, the example given on article discussion page was of a medieval dead monarchy.

As to the title, it seems to me that, to the rest of the English speaking world, historical accuracy would be of overriding importance. It is not accurate to given either title alone in this article, since the article incorporates James' total life. James VI of Scotland / James I of England would be correct as to WP:Article title, WP:Article Scope and historically and chronologically accurate. I have not found a guideline against a long title, as long as it is an accurate title. Historical accuracy should, in my opinion, be the key here. He was King of Scotland for many years, (the longest reigning Scottish Monarch), and then he became King of England, also for a significant amount of years. I have written this three times and have other editors agree with this title; but as to those who disagree, they do not address this narrow issue in the Monarchy series i.e., this particular argument for historical accuracy. I would welcome a comment as to that narrow (but most important) issue and if I am incorrect, I would welcome that information as well, but only as to that narrow politically neutral issue if you please. Mugginsx (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest that James VI of Scotland and James I of England is aesthetically more pleasing to the eye than James VI of Scotland / James I of England?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Gives the impression of being about two people. What about James VI of Scotland, James I of England? Fram (talk) 08:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

With respect, I don't think people will get that easily confused. I believe "And" would work fine. Have started another vote. Mugginsx (talk) 09:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

James could've styled himself Kermit the Frog, but it wouldn't have made him so. The English & Scottish monarchies were united in 1707, not 1603. James was seperately -Monarch of England, Monarch of Scotland & Monarch of Ireland-. As were Charles I, Charles II, James II-VII, Mary II, William III-II & Anne (up until May 1, 1707). GoodDay (talk) 12:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick question: are we going to see a new vote called every week until those in favour of change finally get their way? And doesn't this count as gaming the consensus-building process? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 13:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

This debate is not about anybody getting their own way but rather to strive for historical accuracy. The fact is that James ruled Scotland as James VI from the date of his mother's (albeit constrained) abdication in July 1567 until his death; by contrast he only ruled England (as James I) from 1603 until his demise. Putting James VI before James I is chronologically accurate; it's not an attempt to undermine the kingdom of England nor his important reign as the first Stuart monarch.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've actually already read your viewpoints on why the name change should occur. In several places. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 14:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I have read your opinions too Suriel11981, on the voting page and they don't wash there either. As I said to you, the Kings of England, are to many English speaking countries, no more important than the Presidents of the United States are to you. OK, let me ask you this: Is Harry Truman more important to you than Calvin Coolidge? I didn't think so.

Also, as to another often-used and equally non-credible rationale, used by another editor, his examples of multiple Kingdoms in the title pages do not have anything to do with this title since this was a King of Scotland who, when he became King of England inherited those other titles, Ireland, etc which were already incorporated into the Kingdom of England. Completely different. This is once again a sample of broadening and deflecting the real issue which is that this is one man with two kingdoms.Mugginsx (talk) 15:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't come here to continue the naming debate - that should be done on the talkpage. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 16:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Restating my points clearly - Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way and this is, IMNSHO, gaming the consensus-building process by refusing to accept a result that has been achieved time and time again (15 times, no?). This is the THIRD attempt in a MONTH! At this point, what concerns me is not who is right/wrong but the fact that certain editors are repeatedly flogging a dead horse. Quite frankly, it's taking the piss.
The opening statement to Jimbo in this section beggars belief in its claims that evil English editors are repressing Scots and denying the "American viewpoint" (i.e. the opinions of a couple of American editors) and appealing for Jimbo to take a WP:POV and force through a change which consensus has been opposed to time-and-time again! What is this if not a piss-take? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 16:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Nationality doesn't come into it. We're debating what the article's title should be called. Full stop.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

If that's the case then why is the opening statement on this section full of references to it??? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 16:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Suriel1981 You have misinterpreted my statements. Please read what I said. I referred to good faith editors on all sides with a small proportion making nationalists statements. I have nothing but respect for editors of both countries and my record and my statements here and on article pages prove that. I love (especially) the medieval history of England and Scotland. Please do not misinterpretete what I said. All countries have issues and sides of those issues. This is just an article discussion. My apologizes to anyone who thought differently.

My more recent statement was to attempt to give an example to show the "perspective" of history from the citizen of one country to another, i.e., an American to a European, not to diminish anyone's history. If I failed to articulate that meaning, I would also apologize for that as well. Let us not get side tracked on this. I pray that is not anyone's intent.Mugginsx (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Have I missed something. Has this issue been RfC'd. If not, why not? It seems like prime RfC material to me, & I think that appealing to Jimbo is rather putting the poor guy on the spot. - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Can we please get back on topic? There is a democratic process going on. The Founder can speak for himself and, in fact, has done so here and on the article talk page. You may wish to read his words there as well. Mugginsx (talk) 10:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I see someone has made an allegation that Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way, if I may respond to that allegation I do not consider it accurate or helpful. The reasons put forward for blocking the suggested move include:

• Those suggesting the move are "Scottish nationalists" and should be ignored.
• We don't want to see wikipedia representing the modern nomenclature for this monarch.
• England was his most important kingdom.
• James I is the most common name known outside of Scotland.

Currently most modern texts refer to him as James VI and I, this was the suggested name but its been frustrated by arguments such as those above. Were we to go with the Scottish nationalist suggestion it would be James VI of Scotland but from the outset a compromise was offered. The fact that this keeps arising is because the article is is being held at a non-neutral name by arguments such as those above. The current title ignores other relevant viewpoints in the English language, is anachronistic and incongruous with modern scholarly references and utterly at odds with an encyclopedia professing to offer a WP:NPOV. I say your comments are unhelpful, because I could point out that "like-minded" individuals seem intent on keeping the article at an anachronistic title that doesn't reflect modern usage. In point of fact, they're an attack on the integrity of those arguing for change, who are genuinely seeking to improve the encyclopedia and it seems an attack designed to justify disregarding an opposing viewpoint. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster has expressed my sentiments exactly. We are here to improve the encyclopedia not accuse other editors of having a nationalist agenda.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Following up on Touré

Following up on your comment at Talk:Touré#Request for respectful delay and the previous discussion on your talk page, has there been any progress on this issue? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

*ping* I think this request might have gotten lost in the bustle on your talk page. There's been a further request for attention at the article's talk page, and your input would be greatly appreciated. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Ice hockey articles.

I wish you could put a ban on diacritics usage, Jimbo. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I think a total ban is going too far, but I agree that we misuse/overuse/abuse them. If you could give some of the worst examples, that'd be helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I used to agree. But the more I see things like the image in Sven Bärtschi's article, the more I realize that North American usage of foreign letter marks is growing. Resolute 15:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It isn't really a North American issue only, though. It isn't as if these characters are universal in the UK - far from it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's 4 examples: Jaromír Jágr, Miroslav Šatan, Teemu Selänne & Marek Židlický. These squiggly wigglies, mean nothing to an english reader as they don't learn an english reader how to pronounce the names. All these diacritics do is appease those with 'mother country' pride. GoodDay (talk) 16:01, 24 EOctober 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. They also tell me as an English reader that the name involves non-English pronunciation. The diacritics give me a way of figuring out what the correct pronunciation would be. The Interior (Talk) 16:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a template {{foreignchars}} for such cases, used it for Marek Židlický (so it says "The title of this article contains the following characters: ž and ý. Where they are unavailable or not desired, the name may be represented as Marek Zidlicky." on the top of the page)--Sporti (talk) 16:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

And by banning diacritics, you give additional argument to those who disagree that Côte d'Ivoire is the real name of a country; even in English. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I've no hopes for a total ban. I would like to see them banned from the ice hockey articles, though. GoodDay (talk) 16:18, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ban of diacritics? What crime did they commited? Just remind that diacritics are part of people´s names and that it is not equal to have them, or not, because in many cases removing a diacritic is basically completely changing a letter (and its pronounciation). Exemple, having C, Ć or Č, is all but equal and they are even a disambiguating factor in ocasions. I honestly beleave that English language world is becoming increasinly "international", as mostly allways was, and this type of characteristics of different cultures is a plus of knolledge and information, specially for people we are familiarised with, or that were accepted in "our world" (exemple, ice hockey players). FkpCascais (talk) 16:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

We english readers, don't need'em. GoodDay (talk) 16:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It isn't as simple as that, though. Here's my name, according to Misplaced Pages in various languages: جيمي_ويلز, জিমি ওয়েলস, Джымі Вэйлз, जिमी वेल्स, 지미 웨일스, ജിമ്മി വെയിൽ‌സ്, जिमी वेल्स, جيمى ويلز, and ジミー・ウェールズ. It would be as wrong for me to go into any of those languages and complain that they aren't using English letters, as it is for people to come into English Misplaced Pages and complain that we do use English letters. Some minor diacritic usage is known in English and therefore acceptable; much of what we do is just wrong, wrong in English; and some of it is even wrong in the sense of wildly misleading the reader.

The pronunciation issue is an important one, but take as an example the Japanese version of my name (the only one that I can read, having studied Japanese for a year). If you read those characters, it leads you to pronounce my name as something like "Uweruzu" - and that's in fact close to how Japanese people do pronounce my name. (Japanese doesn't have the 's' sound at the end of syllables the way we do, so Japanese people have trouble stopping at the 's' sound, and they don't have the distinction between 'l' and 'r' the same way we do - so 'rake' and 'lake' sound the same in a Japanese accent.)

And do you know what? That's perfectly fine. They are Japanese people, so they speak Japanese.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Right on, Jimbo. GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

To avoid that problem of mispronunciation (and also because my favorite part of Japanese culture is studying the Ainu, who still use this katakana), I spell my last name in Japanese using ヱ instead of ウェ. Otherwise, you make quite valid points (I don't greatly care which way this ends up resolved, I just want to see some resolution). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't follow the British media, so I can't speak to it. I am just stating that there are signs that attitudes in at least part of the English speaking world is changing. Consequently, we may come to the point where we will find it beneficial to follow suit. Today might not be that day, but the debate rages on. For myself, I've switched from opposed to neutral on diacritics... but not yet supportive. Resolute 16:52, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

So Miroslav Šatan would become Miroslav Satan? LOL. The foreign letters are crucial for pronunciation! José Mourinho or Goce Mourinho. The "chosay" pronunciation is made clear by the diacritic. Why does wiki -xenophobia spring to mind.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Those non-english symbols mean nothing to we layman english readers, so we don't need'em. GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

There are of course limits. I mean, we don't feature Cryllic names like Russian and Bulgarian or the oriental languages for names.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:52, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The squiggly wigglies are merely distractions. GoodDay (talk) 16:57, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) You are absolutely right Jimbo, although there is still one issue. If we want to do it right, we should use the rule of transliteration for each languge, and not just removing the diacritics, as that is not the same. For instance Czech Š should evetually become Sh, and not S, but the problem is that even transliteration rules for some language indicate diactitics to be used: exemple Romanization of Macedonian where the letter Ш is to be transliterated to Š, and not Sh and never ever simple S. This is a bit more complicated that simply removing and baning diacritics, as in many cases letters with diacritics are distinctive letters completely different from the same one without diactitics (exemple, Serbian Č, Ć and C are each a separate letter, not like Spanish O / Ó which only marks accentuation of the sound. Another exemple is that Serbian Ð is Dj and not D like GoodDay would like to simplify it). To be honest, we have transliteration rules for most languegs, and most of long standing editors usually correctly follow them. FkpCascais (talk) 17:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

We should go with the english common usage, for those article titles. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this discussion really limited to diacritics in article names? The lede should surely include the common name (with variations), the native language name, the diacritical name, and the transliteration name, along with various pronunciation aids. All those help the users. The standard for article name is "most commonly used in the language", as that's what most people will look for and expect to find, and there's no limit on redirects. That also helps the users. The English language Misplaced Pages includes the countries of the US, UK, Australia, Canada, Ghana and others. I would not expect all those people to be up on all the diacritical marks, but if they are, and that version is in the lede, then what's the point of this argument? It's there for those who want it. The common name is there for those who want that. This ongoing argument is nothing but a pissing contest, an "I'm more global and multicultural than you are" thing, and it's a shame it's become such a focus of time wasting. Misplaced Pages exists for its users, not its editors. 99.50.191.156 (talk) 20:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Diacritics are useful, they're proper and allow those who understand them to better pronounce the article's title. Those who don't understand them aren't hurt by there presence. No harm. Albacore (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The point is, it just isn't true in all cases to say that they don't hurt others by their presence. There are many examples where they are misleading as to pronunciation, for English speakers. You do identify one among many factors that we should consider, though: if the diacritic doesn't materially mislead speakers, then it's less harmful to have them than in cases where they do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I am intrigued by this point. I admit that I haven't been following this dispute, but could you provide some examples of diacritic usage that actually mislead naive English speakers? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, taking Miroslav Šatan. Having no idea what "Š" means, I'd pronounce his name "Satan". If you want me to pronounce it (more) correctly, I guess you'd write "Shatan". (This is done a lot for German ö (in real life I mean) where you see it rendered as "oe" in names). So I guess "Š" is misleading opposed to "Sh" (but not opposed to "S"). Herostratus (talk) 02:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

All one would need to do is have - pronounced 'Sha-tan' in the intro. GoodDay (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and that would solve the problem. But we don't don't do that. We use some system for describing pronounciation (I think it's called IPA) that imparts zero information to me and probably 95+% of readers. The symbol given for the start of his name is some squiggle that looks like an integration sign. So no relief there. Herostratus (talk) 04:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

One just gets the impresson the squiggly wigglies are in the article titles more for show rather then tell. GoodDay (talk) 04:15, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It could be a coding challenge to create a IPA-to-speech engine. As far as diacritics go, I personally have no preference over article titles other than prioritising transliteration over blind lookalike letter substitution despite what the letter of WP:COMMONNAME; Non Makkapthn never released an album called Choba b CCCP, after all. However, most news sources do that already, for example the Serbian letter Đ is transliterated to Dj, and it's obvious that the World's Number #1 tennis player would pronounce his name "No-vac Jock-o-vich". And even English isn't a phonetic language; if you pronounced the name of a small village in the Pennines Slay-th-wait you'd get laughed at. Sceptre 04:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't now where you found japanese language, which is irrelavent to this discution, but in all the Latin alphabet wikis the article is named "Jimbo Wales", eventhough not all the languages have a letter 'W' (so it should be Jimbo Vales in those cases?). Transliteration is only used for names from other alphabets. English language uses the Latin alphabet, whch includes characters like č, ć, ž, đ, š... --Sporti (talk) 06:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hahahaaa... removing blindly diacritics is like using Faux Cyrillic, hahahaaa that was brilliant!!! FkpCascais (talk) 06:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

To Sporti's eloquent remark, let me also add that those who campaign for the removal of diacritics from article titles are promoting inconsistency and arbitrariness: the reader is expected to see the article title with diacritics everywhere but in its very title. To click on Bohumil Mořkovský and run into an article titled Bohumil Morkovsky - which is simply inane. Or is the proposal just meant to put the foot in the door, pending a future removal of all diacritics? If that's the case, prepare for the new Illiterate Misplaced Pages. Dahn (talk) 18:54, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

... And the benefit of starting this discussion here again, after it has been rehashed a thousand times elsewhere, is exactly what? GoodDay, you know perfectly well that there is no consensus on this issue project-wide, the chances of this debate here achieving one is zero, and the idea implied in your initial posting that Jimbo could simply decide the issue by a decree from on high is, frankly, disgusting. So why is this discussion here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Because JW has the authority to inforce english usage on English Misplaced Pages. The only reason those non-english accents are plastered on hockey article titles, is because of 'mother country' pride. They're in place merely for show not tell. GoodDay (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No, he doesn't have the authority to "inforce english usage" (ahem). It still works by consensus. And let me add that the main argument against-diacritics, the misleading "this is English-langauge wikipedia", is the only one to show any trace of language patriotism. The pro-diacritics ones are generally of practical nature, and have many native English speakers among their supporters. Dahn (talk) 18:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Also it has nothing to do with 'mother pride' but with respecting someones name. Although not a concept very much observerved in British media as they try to mutilate anybodys name (if they can add some pun all the better) the British media is more and more using diacritics in their articles even provincial papers like the Western Telegraph can spell (sometimes at least on par with getting local placenames right). Agathoclea (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It's about 'mother country' pride, period. Those who are so anxious to have diacritics in article titles? there's plenty of non-english Wikipedias out there, for you. GoodDay (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Remarkable: fighting xenophobia with xenophobic remarks. Dahn (talk) 18:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Call it what you wish. GoodDay (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, my "mother countries" are England and Ukraine. Given the latter would require transliteration to the Latin alphabet, there is no "mother country pride" going on when I note my views on the matter are shifting. Dahn's got you nailed - you're the one obsessed with language patriotism, not others. Resolute 19:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Having those non-english symbols in the hockey player article titles, don't help atall. GoodDay (talk) 19:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Come on GoodDay, I can´t beleave you think diacritics are there showing off, that´s insane. Like, "look at me, I am a diacritic and I am trendy and fashionable!!!". I mean, you act like if the diacritics are some evil things waiting for the opportunity to jump from the page and hit you in the eye or something...

Now seriously, until now I belave we had been using the name versions without diacritics for foreigners with enough English language sources using the name in that way (Novak Djokovic for exemple). Now, for the vast majority of cases, you don´t have a strict rule of diacritics or not. Anyway, where is the limit? If I find 5 sources 3 using them, and 2 not, what should we do? And what about 4 - 1 ? Also, don´t forget that sports sources are not specialised in linguistics, and they will often make mistakes in foreign names until corrected, often just copying how another source wrote it. So it is not easy to go by sources either, only for well known cases. And I cannot understand why is there such a drama regarding this, as after all it is only used for foreign names from countries who´s languages use them (not all foreign countries use them), and not allways are included (even the ones that use, you have many names without them), so it is quite a minority we are talking here. FkpCascais (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Diacritics have no value to the ice hockey article titles. If pro-dios editors are concerned about names being pronounced properly, let them concentrate on the intro. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, could you please explain what precisely it is about Misplaced Pages that requires us to remove diacritics in the same way that wire news does because of technical restrictions and many newspapers do because it's too much hassle to restore the butchered diacritics to the wire news – as opposed to following the lead of scholarly publishers, Britannica, Encarta and, ahem, all of which go to great lengths to use diacritics correctly for all European languages? The only dropped diacritics (in titles) that I have seen in any of them were in Vietnamese and Pinyin names. Note that even the 1911 Britannica used diacritics consistently for European languages, even for Polish and Czech, which must have presented considerable difficulties. Apparently some of the Polish letters didn't exist in their typeface, so they had to stitch them together from unaccented letters and punctuation marks.

It is simply a lie (for want of a more accurate word, given that editors such as Good Day, who keep repeating this canard even after being corrected numerous times) that diacritics in European names are unusual in English in the appropriate context, which is that of headings in English-language encyclopedias. In fact, so far nobody has given so much as a single example of a reputable general-purpose English encyclopedia that drops European diacritics in this context.

The Chicago Manual of Style gives detailed advice about how to get diacritics right in foreign names and how to make sure that they are printed correctly. As far as I know it does not even mention the option of dropping them. For the closely related case of place names, an editor of the Chicago Manual recommends using the main spellings in Webster's Geographic Dictionary. This dictionary does not drop any diacritics. Where entries exist for place names with dropped diacritics, they say "see ". (The one exception is "Zurich", which is a bona fide English spelling that just happens to look like the German spelling with ü replaced by u.)

So it appears that your preference for dropping diacritics is just that, and that pushing it on Misplaced Pages would be very inappropriate. As are Good Day's appeals to you. Hans Adler 20:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The project is meant for the laymen first, not the professionals. GoodDay (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is for idiots who are incapable of removing diacritics themselves if they don't like them, while Britannica and Encarta are for experts only? Interesting argument. Hans Adler 20:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

This is English Misplaced Pages, stop forcing non-english symbols on the article titles. Stop pushing the 'mother country' pride on the rest of us editors. GoodDay (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Stop your obnoxious and disruptive WP:IDHT behaviour. You are pushing to make Misplaced Pages diverge from universal practice of English-language reference works, based on your own preferences and original research. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as you admit that that's what you are doing and don't try to dominate the discourse with your lies about the motivations of others. Hans Adler 20:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Leave the diacritics on the non-English Misplaced Pages article titles, where they belong. GoodDay (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

For stuff like this, we should simply follow usage in other reputable encyclopedias, Britannica foremost. If they bother putting in the diacritics, so should we. (Besides, quite a lot of people who read Misplaced Pages do know other languages than English.) --JN466 22:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Aren't we supposed to use secondary sources (news articles) instead of tertiary ones (like encyclopedias)? And also, Brittanica doesn't use diacritics for Jagr Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:44, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Jaromir Jagr plays for the Pittsburgh Penguins. People who move to the US almost always get rid of their diacritics in one way or another, and Misplaced Pages usually reflects this in its titles. There is no link to the talk page archive, but the two relevant discussions are at . In both of these, nobody even mentioned the important point that Jagr is a US resident. Just propose a move, and unless someone makes a really good case that this is a borderline case in that there is evidence that Jagr/Jágr has not actually changed his name for US use but is merely being misspelled systematically by American sources, I predict that the article will be moved. Hans Adler 06:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

As sources for content, yes. But we are an encyclopedia, and when it comes to questions of what encyclopedic presentation should look like, reputable encyclopedias are a germane model. --JN466 04:00, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what do English-language Canadian media do about names with 'French' diacritics? --Boson (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the French, but they don't use them for other names . Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:44, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

François typically always has his diacritic. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Not really: . Most Canadian media drops diacritics. The reasoning for this likely goes back to Hans' argument. Resolute 00:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollectio

Jimbo, I'm bringing to your attention this recent discussion on the MOMK page. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher#Split_apart_sections_of_the_article_into_Trial_of_Amanda_Knox_and_Raffaele_Sollecito. This section suggested the seperation of the Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito away from the MOMK article now that they have been acquitted. The discussion went on for a couple of weeks and the final vote was 20-8 in favor of the new article. It would have just pulled out all of the AK,RS trial info out of MOMK. There is no reason that their trial should be any more than a note with a link on the MOMK page. It has nothing to do with her murder and it has everything to do with the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. It is at this point its OWN event that should be seperated from MOMK. I do not understand how an admin can just ignore such a large concensus to have the Trial seperated from MOMK? Why did we even vote? What is the point of having a concensus if it is completely ignored. I do not want Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to be tied in wikipedia to a murder they had nothing to do with. This was discussed long before the acquittal even happened that if they were acquitted it would be best to make it a new article. The MOMK should concentrate on her murder. I would appreciate your response and hopefully your support in making a new article. Issymo (talk) 23:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking of me. Who is preventing the creation of a new article separating the trial from the murder article?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Our motto

I am increasingly uncomfortable with Misplaced Pages, the 💕 that anyone can edit, because so many people interpret it as Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia that anyone has the right to edit in any way they feel like. The result is that people come here, make edits that serve some goal they have, and then are angry when the edits are rejected. I suggest as an alternative Misplaced Pages, the 💕 that everyone can help write. It carries the same connotations of freedom and openness, but adds a connotation of cooperation in pursuit of a universal goal. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 15:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's been the motto for a very very long time. :) I doubt if it is any worse (or better) today than ever.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:45, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, the fact that a problem has existed for a long time doesn't mean it can't be fixed. Anyway, I'm not expecting anything to happen quickly, just trying to plant a seed. Looie496 (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia we write together." — Coren  19:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Beware changing a motto: Perhaps some see: "Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia some draft and others copy-edit for years". I formerly thought there should be much more emphasis on collaboration, such as in gaining consensus about contentious articles, or defining coherent sets of articles, but looking at hundreds of typos or grammar errors in articles, now I really see the need for brave loners to quickly edit each article, boldly as WP:BRD, and correct many minor errors and fix some basic source references as fast as possible (perhaps dozens of changes in many articles per day?). Remember: over 80% of articles do not even show conversions of km/miles. Most article images do not set the "alt=" (in ) to say the physical picture description for sight-impaired users. Most town articles have out-dated population counts. Plus, numerous hollow articles need some basic text added, by anyone who knows some details about the subjects. I can understand that there are many articles where POV-pushers try every tactic to slant, or distort, the text, but changing the motto will not stop them. Calling a robbing mugger either a "mugger" or "wealth-challenged would-be saint" is unlikely to alter their actions to attack and steal what they want to take. The WP motto is not what prompts people to distort and slant many articles. Perhaps a more accurate motto would be: "Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia anyone can edit to improve dozens of details in each article". -Wikid77 (talk) 23:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
• Planting a seed for a new motto is good. No text will eliminate POV pushers or troublemakers, but I know at least one long term abuser who fully rationalizes his actions based on anyone can edit—why should elitist snobs have some right to remove his contributions when anyone can edit? Johnuniq (talk) 23:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Because anyone can edit, of course. →Στc. 03:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

In Chinese Misplaced Pages we have an essay zh:Misplaced Pages:海納百川，有容乃大 to explain a motto, is just a motto. You guys may consider to create a similar one to clear things out. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 05:06, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Another thought: changing the actual motto would be pretty hard to do. But what is easy to do is change what we write on the front page of English Misplaced Pages. I have always liked what they say on the front page of German Misplaced Pages: "Gute Autorinnen und Autoren sind stets willkommen." - Good authors are always welcome. (Literally they speak of both male and female authors which is in a way a nice touch given our desire for greater diversity, but that's actually just a feature of German as a language: there's no useful and modern-sounding way to invite both so easily in English, as "authoress" sounds positively Victorian.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:24, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The "the 💕 that anyone can edit" for me has always been a major reason why wikipedia isn't taken seriously by many scholars. "The anyone can edit" part basically immediately advertises and implies the whole encyclopedia as being amateurish and lacking trustworthy information. It also implies that anybody an do anything they like as Looie has said and that they can tamper with any information and for it to be accepted. This is far from the truth. There's nothing wrong with the current model and being open to an extent, just I think the motto is so dated now. I mean, it was created at a time when people hadn't heard of wikipedia or didn't know they could edit. Surely its now common knowledge, at least to the english speaking world? Might be time to consider a change. "Misplaced Pages, the free collaborative knowledge resource" would be better. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:02, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I like the motto and will not support attempts to change it. It is true, it has always been true, and will continue to be true. If that causes some people to jump to false conclusions, that's a shame, but there are better ways to correct that. It's an important statement about what Misplaced Pages means to the world - it isn't just a "free collaborative knowledge resource" although it is that. It's actually the encyclopedia that anyone can edit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)