Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:07, 28 October 2011

Politics of the United Kingdom B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. More information: /  This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.

British Royalty B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Royalty (a child project of the Royalty and Nobility Work Group), an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to British Royalty on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you should visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.British RoyaltyWikipedia:WikiProject British RoyaltyTemplate:WikiProject British RoyaltyBritish royalty B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Edwatd VIII's successor

From a recent TV programme I think I understood that, since Edward VIII abdicated, any of George V's other sons could have succeeded as king: it didn't have to be the eldest. Had Edward VIII died on the throne without leaving children, succession would have been definitely to Prince Albert, Duke of York who was George V's second son.

Of course, Prince Albert did indeed become king but perhaps it was indeed by some political decision. Could this have been His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936? The article hints at it in saying "the Act ensured that the throne passed over to Prince Albert, Duke of York".

Does anyone have any information? Thincat 16:18, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As of December 1936, there was no legal provision for abdication. A law had to be passed. That law could have made anyone King - it could have invalidated the whole Act of Settlement, and put PM Baldwin on the throne as Stanley I. Or whatever. So, yeah, technically anything could have happened. Supposedly, there was some consideration of making the Duke of Kent king. But I think that's largely bogus. There was no real other option than making York king, especially since he had daughters who would otherwise be disenfranchised. john k 18:50, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Discuss/link to discussion of heir presumptive/heir apparent? Mjs 23:51, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

Statute of Westminster

In the Changes section it states: "In practice the provisions of the Statute of Westminster 1931 have fallen out of use." I'm wondering how this claim can be made. The Realms remain equal in status, the Westminster Parliament remains barred from legislating on behalf of any other Realm, and the convention that no alteration to the line of succession by one Realm without the consent of all the others remains in effect. Unless I'm missing something, I think this sentence should be removed. --gbambino 22:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am no constitutional scholar, but my understanding is that, apart from the convention implied in the preamble to the Statute of Westminster, any alteration to the law on succession made by the Parliament of United Kingdom would automatically have legal effect in Australia withouth the need for formal approval by the Australian Parliament. My understanding is based on the The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act, which states in Section 2 that

The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.

Conversely however, any unilateral change in the line of succession to the Australian throne, e.g. to pick a person other than the Sovereign of the United Kingdom to be the King or Queen of Australia, would require IMHO an amendment to the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act, which could be made in turn only by means of approval in a public referendum requiring a double majority of the nationwide vote and of the votes cast in a majority of states. The situation in Canada as I see it is more confusing as the Canadian constitution, unlike the constitutions of Australia or New Zealand for that matter, does not include AFAIK any explicit mention to the line of succession following a demise of the crown. So far however, the understanding of the Canadian courts has been that the preambles to Canada's Constitution Act 1867 and to the Statute of Westminster 1931 imply a line of succession to the Canadian throne that is symmetrical to that of the United Kingdom. Moreover, the courts have also ruled that any unilateral change to the line of succession in Canada would amount to a significant change in the nature of the office of the Queen and, therefore, would require the qualified constitutional amendment procedures set out in the Constitution Act 1982, namely approval by the federal Parliament as well as the Legislative Assemblies of all 10 Canadian provinces. AFAIK however, the constitutional issues involving the succession to the Canadian throne have not been examined yet by the highest court in the land, i.e. the Supreme Court of Canada, and, therefore, I do not consider this matter settled. 161.24.19.82 12:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of what you say is true, except, as I understand it from reading the ruling of Ontario Superior Court Justice Rouleau in O'Donohue v. Canada, the Act of Settlement is now a patriated part of the Canadian constitution, and any alteration to the UK's version of the Act would have no effect on the Canadian version of the Act; meaning that if the UK altered the line of succession without the same being done in Canada, the two nations would have different monarchs. Hence, as the preamble to the Statute of Westminster (which is also separately a part of the constitutions of the UK and Canada) lays out the important convention that the monarch remain the same throughout the Realms, the UK cannot change the line of succession to the British Throne without the consent of at least Canada, and vice-versa. This reliance of one on the other seemed to be demonstrated as early as 1936, when it was necessary for Canada to pass the Succession to the Throne Act, which allowed for Edward VIII to abdicate. As Ireland didn't get their parliament to permit the abdication of Edward as King of Ireland in time, Ireland ended up with a different sovereign to the other Realms for one day.

From Rouleau's ruling, which is, admittedly, not a Superior Court ruling, it seems clear that the provisions of the Statute of Westminster are still indeed in effect - all the countries under the Crown remain equal in status, no country should alter its line of succession without the consent of the 15 others, and the UK cannot pass laws on behalf of any other Realm. --gbambino 15:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• New Zealand Constitution Act 1986, Part I, Section 5(1):

The death of the Sovereign shall have the effect of transferring all the functions, duties, powers, authorities, rights, privileges, and dignities belonging to the Crown to the Sovereign's successor, as determined in accordance with the enactment of the Parliament of England intituled The Act of Settlement (12 & 13 Will 3, c 2) and any other law relating to the succession to the Throne, but shall otherwise have no effect in law for any purpose.

A Question

• When someone is struck off the line of succession for being a Catholic, does the same apply to their descendents, or are their children permitted to stay on the list (assuming that they themselves are Protestants, naturally)? This is unclear from the article. Jdcooper 01:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The married-a-Papist rule only applies to the person and not to their descendants; Lady Marina-Charlotte Windsor is 23rd in line in favour of her father, who married a Catholic. It be reasonable that the same holds for descendants of persons who are themselves Catholics, though I'm not sure of an example. EdC 23:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a forseeable problem, though: if somebody ever actually gets skipped for real, his or her unborn children must surely be accounted out of the succession (otherwise their place would be AHEAD of the then-incumbent). The inconsistency between this and EdC's answer above is disquieting. Ah, well. Doops | talk 06:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"Furthermore, an individual is not barred because his or her spouse converts to Roman Catholicism after marriage." - what if a person converts from Catholicism to Protestantism before the marriage; whould that make their spouse inneligible? And does any law state specifically that an heir has to be protestant, or just that they can't be Catholic? - Matthew238 07:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Why English only, where's the Scots

In truth this article should begin at 1707, but since it currrently include the 'Succession to the English Throne', it should also include 'Succession to the Scottish Throne'. What's with this continous notion - England became Britain, while Scotland became exstinct. GoodDay 18:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Correction, some (but very little) Scottish material is in the article - however article still seems 'pre-dominantly' English. GoodDay 18:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, most of the article is about the theory, which isn't England-specific. But you have a point with regard to the history section, so I've reorganized and added a "stub" tag. Doops | talk 19:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The other thing that bothers me is the ordering -- James of Scotland in this article is known as "James I & VI" whereas I was brought up knowing him as "James VI & I". Doubtless a lot of that is simply national bias -- but in this case, the national bias towards "James VI & I" has more merit than "James I & VI" given that James was James VI well before he was James I. The same would go, by continuation, with his son James VII and II. Unless there is an overwhelming number of contemporary sources authorised by the King naming himself James I&VI I would argue that the numbers should be swapped. Plus, the current Scottish section is rubbish. In the English section we get a potted history of the English crown. In the Scottish section we get a brief comment about Mary, Queen of Scots being succeeded by James. I don't know the history -- which is why I'm here in the first place -- so I can't correct matters. I, and doubtless others, would definitely appreciate someone versed in the history of the Scottish monarchies putting the same type of potted history as the English get here.92.74.16.126 (talk) 20:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Descendants of Egbert

"Upon the death of Beorhtric who had forced him into exile, Egbert returned to Wessex and took the throne. Overtaking Mercia as the dominant power in Britain, Egbert militarily expanded his realm to include Kent, Sussex, Surrey, some Mercian territory, and briefly all of Mercia; this gained him the title Bretwalda, or "ruler of Britain". Egbert's heirs have ruled England almost exclusively ever since; in the years since there have been only eight monarchs of the country who were not his descendants: the four consecutive Danish kings, and the first four Normans beginning with William the Conqueror."

The last sentence is not correct. The four Danish kings were not descendants of Egbert, it is true, nor was William the Conqueror, but his sons William II and Henry I were, as was his grandson Stephen. This is because the Conqueror's wife Matilda of Flanders was a distant descendant of Alfred the Great, through his daughter Elfrida who married Baldwin II, Count of Flanders. Alfred in turn was a grandson of Egbert.

It is debatable though whether the number of non-descended Kings should be reduced to five or six. Harold II had no certainly known descent from Egbert. There was a claim that his paternal line was from Ethelred I, Alfred's elder brother and immediate predecessor. Ethelred certainly had male children, passed over in the succession as they were minors and the kingdom was at war, but it may never be known with certainty whether this ancestry of the House of Godwin was fact or a convenient fiction. In view of the doubt, I propose to change the relevant portion of the sentence to "only five, or possibly six, monarchs of the country who were not his descendants: the four consecutive Danish kings, William the Conqueror, and arguably Harold II." I will do this tomorrow unless someone protests first.

86.165.100.95 (talk) 09:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I did, but the wording was as follows: "in the years since there have been only five, or possibly six, monarchs of the country who were not his descendants: the four Danish kings, William the Conqueror, and arguably Harold II, whose claimed patrilineal descent, referred to below, is not universally accepted as true." I left out "consecutive" before the Danish kings, since they weren't, Sweyn being followed by the restored Ethelred II and then by Edmund II before Canute, and added the explanation for Harold II as the descent is referred to elsewhere in the article, which should not appear to be arguing with itself.

86.165.100.95 (talk) 08:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The Queen is a great-grandmother

Shouldn't the list be updated with Queen Elizabeth became a great--grandmother ? Ronbarak (talk) == Britain's Queen Elizabeth became a great--grandmother for the first time with the birth of a daughter to the Queen's oldest grandson. Peter Phillips, the son of Princess Anne, and his wife Autumn became the parents of a daughter born Wednesday at Gloucestershire Royal Hospital. Ronbarak (talk) 21:05, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/articles/90029167?First%20great-grandchild%20for%20Queen%20Elizabeth%20born%20to%20grandson%20Peter%20Phillips#ixzz19dBve156

Line of succession to the British throne

I suggest adding the beginning of the line of succession to the British throne to this article, maybe the first 10, 20 or 40 individuals. It's obviously relevant for this topic, and a good "summary" of the complete 3,000-people list "Line of succession to the British throne". --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Done.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Statistical tables

In accordance with a discussion on the Line of succession talk page, I have moved the section "Statistical tables" to this page. Its content largely refers to history, rather than the current line. There are some parts of this section which some editors (myself included) may think could be removed as unsourced trivia. I leave this decision to others. Noel S McFerran (talk) 10:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Charles and William

Is Prince William #2 in line no matter what? I was under the impression that if Charles were to pass away before Queen Elizabeth, then Andrew would become Prince of Wales (with his children next in line) and Charles's sons would drop down a few spots. Is that correct? Funnyhat (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

That's completely incorrect. If (heavens forfend) Prince Charles were to pass away before Her Majesty, Prince William would be first in line (heir-apparent) and the Queen would probably make William the new Prince of Wales. Prince Andrew (and his daughters) can't "leapfrog" Charles and his sons — the line of succession works through additions (births) and subtractions (deaths) and that is it. ✝DBD 00:14, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a common misconception. Charles has already established his lineage in William and Harry (and their assumed future progeny). If all of Charles's descendants died or somehow became ineligible before the Queen died, only then would Andrew become heir apparent. -- Jack of Oz 10:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Minimum age?

Something that I'd like to know, that I don't believe is covered in the article, is what is the minimum age for succession to the throne? Let's say, as a purely hypothetical example, that the queen had her son Charles, and then died the next day - does 1-day-old Charles become king? Nzseries1 (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Others may know better but I don't think there's a minimum age. A one day old ruler would need a regent, though. Regency Acts#Regency in the case of the minority of the Sovereign looks relevant. Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 15:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The minimum age is conception. Seriously. See posthumous birth. ✝DBD 16:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Charles and William (B)

Is it possible for the crown to bypass Charles allowing William to ascend to the throne?Ajpacella (talk) 15:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. But it would take an Act of Parliament to amend the existing law, and that would involve not just the UK parliament and people, but the parliaments and people of the 15 other Commonwealth realms. Unless Charles himself suddenly renounced the throne he's been patiently waiting in line for for the past 62 years, there is no reason in the world why such an act would ever be considered. "We like William more than Charles" is not a reason.

However, Charles would become ineligible if he were to convert to Catholicism, or married a Catholic (which assumes Camilla has first died or been divorced from him). -- Jack of Oz 21:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Presumably Camilla converting to Catholicism would also count? Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Become a papist or marry one. Being married to a convert doesn't count. I'm sure there was a recent example... ✝DBD 23:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Lots of news today

Lots of news today as David Cameron announced unanimous agreement among the 16 realms to change the rules of succession.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:07, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• B-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• Unknown-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class British royalty articles
• Mid-importance British royalty articles
• WikiProject British Royalty articles