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Revision as of 14:35, 31 October 2011 view sourceJimbo Wales (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Founder14,538 edits →"Verifiability and truth"← Previous edit		Revision as of 14:35, 31 October 2011 view source Jimbo Wales (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Founder14,538 edits →"Verifiability and truth": - fix indentNext edit →
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	:That's not what "V not T" means. When editors see that a given citation is wrong, it fails the threshold of ] and that's the end of it. Verifiability means sources cited in article text can be checked by readers (and editors). It's not a licence to knowingly (bad faith) or otherwise (mistaken) dump wrong factoids into an article. ] (]) 14:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)		:That's not what "V not T" means. When editors see that a given citation is wrong, it fails the threshold of ] and that's the end of it. Verifiability means sources cited in article text can be checked by readers (and editors). It's not a licence to knowingly (bad faith) or otherwise (mistaken) dump wrong factoids into an article. ] (]) 14:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
	::It may not be what it is supposed to mean, but that's literally what it says. And we have plenty of evidence of people misunderstanding the phrase - people say things like "Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the truth" - they are wrong, and this phrase is wrong. It's just false to say that the standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is "verifiability, not truth".		::It may not be what it is supposed to mean, but that's literally what it says. And we have plenty of evidence of people misunderstanding the phrase - people say things like "Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the truth" - they are wrong, and this phrase is wrong. It's just false to say that the standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is "verifiability, not truth".
	:Notice too, the circularity in what you are saying. If the source says something that we know to be false, then that source fails ]. But that's just another way of saying that the truth trumps a source in some cases. We seek verifiability '''and''' truth.--] (]) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)		::Notice too, the circularity in what you are saying. If the source says something that we know to be false, then that source fails ]. But that's just another way of saying that the truth trumps a source in some cases. We seek verifiability '''and''' truth.--] (]) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
	:{{ec}} Just to play devil's advocate, how do we know that she was telling you the truth? Maybe she has some motive to have correct information removed from Misplaced Pages? How do we know that ''you'' are telling the truth? If someone else removed well-sourced information from an article while claiming "She told me it isn't true", should we allow that edit to stand? ] (]) 14:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)		:{{ec}} Just to play devil's advocate, how do we know that she was telling you the truth? Maybe she has some motive to have correct information removed from Misplaced Pages? How do we know that ''you'' are telling the truth? If someone else removed well-sourced information from an article while claiming "She told me it isn't true", should we allow that edit to stand? ] (]) 14:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
	::We can and should exercise editorial judgment. We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always. Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--] (]) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)		::We can and should exercise editorial judgment. We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always. Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--] (]) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

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Sorry to Bother You

Hello, there, Mr. Wales, and I'm sorry to bother you, as I know you're a very busy man. One of the smaller articles in Misplaced Pages is one that I've hand-raised myself, much like the subject of the article, Kayavak, a beluga whale at Shedd Aquarium.. User:Qwyrxian suggests that 70% of the article needs to be rewritten, and that it may have to be significantly cut. I know you probably won't fret over such a small article. But please, look at it yourself, and tell me how it can be improved, if you may. Thank you, Mr. Wales, and good day. --Belugaboy 12:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I will leave space for Jimbo to answer, above, but recently he has been very busy. Meanwhile, some of us other editors have added notes and sources (from the Chicago Tribune) into article "Kayavak" as examples for updating the sourced text. It is an interesting article because the multi-year sources cover the whale's life from birth to age 12 now, and have described reactions to other whales at the Oceanarium. Similar articles (such as a page about "Horse communications") provide indepth information that is difficult to find, combined, on the Internet at large. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't notice this until now. My concern with that article, like every other one that I encounter, is that it not contain unsourced information; particular, that it not contain unsourced POV information. You indicated to me on my talk that you know of more sources, and if you add them then there is no problem. Also, note that I could have just gone in and immediately removed everything that wasn't verified; I chose not to, as it seemed like it could be saved, and that regular editors (such as yourself, Belugaboy) would be able to do that far better than I could. I'm happy that other editors have since added sources and improved the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Donations.

Hello, these donation ads are getting tiring. Please out of respect to your members, consider removing these ads. These volunteers do enough work by writing these articles, then you ask them to write code for you like the coding event that was just held, you ask them for storytelling services. Please pay these people, rather than continuing to ask them of this. I know not all of the blame should be upon you as it should also respectively be upon the WMF, but you are the owner. Regardless, thank you for your service for the largest encyclopedia on the net. As it regards, 66.116.153.66 (talk) 21:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

We look forward to your pending membership :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:07, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not the owner. :) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent activity at Verifiability policy page and talk

Closing this discussion in the interests of harmony. Sarek's close was a good close, but I see no harm emerging from allowing the RfC to run a few more days. I think SV should take a break from this issue.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
FYI. There was an RFC on a proposal that began on Oct 5 re WP:V. The RFC had the participation of about a hundred editors. About 8 hours ago it was closed as successful by an administrator and the changes were implemented in WP:V. Since then, the changes have been reverted. A couple of hours ago there began intense activity opposing the proposal, after this edit. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Hi, Jimbo. I was just coming over myself, because I'm very distressed at what's going on. (I was the admin who did the close.)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Reminder: Well, I am not convinced that moving "verifiability, not truth" to be lower in the policy page was really a helpful, significant change. What people should understand is that the word "verifiability" requires "truth in representing sources", plus some sources are not correct, so "truth" is an aspect required to judge accurate sources (articles should not cite known false, out-dated sources). Hence, the broader reality is "verifiability and truth" (while the word "not" has been misleading for years). Meanwhile, the phrase "verifiability-not-truth" sounds like convoluted "Yoda-speak" (Yoda: "Do, or do not; there is no "try"), so even when people do not gag about verifiability requiring truth ("verity"), some viewers will read the "verifiability-not-truth" phrase and think, "WTF??" (trendy term for "sounds like utter patent nonsense"). I can appreciate a compromise, to lower the "not-truth" phrase further down into the policy, but "Can't we all just get along" with reality, and accept the fact that Misplaced Pages is in the truth business? -Wikid77 (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC) You make some good points, but you also miss a few (possibly though due to how obvious they are). Articles should be permitted to cite known false/outdated sources. It's how they are used that's important. I can point out thousands of articles where it is required to cite such sources. One example is Flat_Earth. Besides reasons such as applicable to that article, often, to show historical changes in perceptions and understandings, it is also required to cite incorrect/outdated sources (grossly paraphrased made up example: "In the 1500's scientists believed (some item we believe to be nonsense now){incorrect/outdated cite}, which was later proved to be false{newer cite with current beliefs/theories}"). And of course, truth is often largely irrelevant when beliefs, belief systems and such come into play. In those instances, since for each belief system there are dozens or thousands of conflicting ones, we cannot determine truth, but can simply only posit what each believes without giving weight to which is "true". These are some of the key reasons why verifiability is more important than our own individual "truths". It's one of the reasons that "v... not t..." is so important. Numerous (many many many) Misplaced Pages articles are comprised of way too many beliefs that have counter-beliefs and no universally held "truths". Even the same goes for BLPs, where all we have is what's reported, which is at best just a shadow of the truth. Of course, in those situations, it again boils down to properly using all sources; correct or incorrect, outdated or new. If BillyBob made (notable) claims about MarySue, which were later proved to be false, they still (sources and all) should be included - but with the new information and cites presented as well. Of course, that gets back to weighing the notability and relevance of each. Simple point is, it's far more complex than "old vs new" or "incorrect vs correct". It's a balancing act that needs to be encompassed by numerous other policies and guidelines to determine how such is applied in each article. And with a lot of NPOV and BALANCE (not bias) applied to ensure due weight to each individually and conflicting views as a whole. At least, those are my thoughts. One last thought. Too many people seem to pick apart one single policy or guideline in an effort to improve it without looking at the bigger picture to realize that one cannot do that without determining how it affects the interaction of that policy/guideline with the numerous others we are required to adhere to. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI \| /_CN 17:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Overcomplicating issues can obscure the role of truth: I agree there is a balance, but when dwelling on "it's far more complex" then there is the danger to overlook the simple factors. It reminds me of the student talking to his parents, "We had a long discussion in philosophy class today, and I no longer know what really exists, perhaps it is all an illusion, and is anything real?" The parents, of course, reply like, "Well, we always thought your car and your allowance were real, but perhaps they no longer exist." Articles should be true to the sources for a specific topic, and the sources should be checked for known factual errors. The key issue is that truth is determined by the collection of sources; when there is a mixed difference of opinions, then that is the limit to the truth of those sources. When people have tried to justify the "verifiability-not-truth" phrase, they use terms such as "no absolute truth" or Misplaced Pages does not seek "The Truth" because that seems to be the heart of the problem (versus truth relative to sources). Instead, when articles are written and copy-edited for corrections, the editors are working with so-called "journalistic truth" where a reporter focuses on what the sources have said or written. That is why "Flat earth" addresses the concept as an out-dated mode of thinking (compared to "The earth is round"), and the old sources are used to show that some people formerly believed in that concept, but secondary sources judge the earlier primary sources as having mistaken notions. WP uses secondary sources to give true opinions about the concepts, where possible. For example, a controversy in that topic concerns quoting Greek philosopher Aristotle out-of-context, where he wrote a comparison of the flat-earth and round-earth concepts, but some people used only part of his text to "prove" he believed the earth was flat (not actually), by quoting selected phrases, out-of-context, and omitting the parts where he noted the earth as round. Step 1: Focus on truth, then the next steps involve weighing the sources and avoiding a partial out-of-context quote about a topic. The focus on truth is how slanted text is judged. When a new WP:RS source is published which reports, "The conviction has been overturned", then WP should change the article to reflect the truth, not pretend the conviction stands as verified by an out-dated source. That is how current up-to-date sources are detected as being omitted, and the focus on truth is why an article which omits the acquittal would no longer be viewed as correct. Misplaced Pages is in the truth business, where truth is determined by all the sources, to the extent possible. Beyond that point, the truth is uncertain, but WP articles do not depend on "verifiability-not-truth" in practice, just in policy wording which confuses many people. The focus on truth is how an editor can determine a word is misspelled, versus a variant spelling, and when to append "" to emphasize a misspelled word is truly a direct quote from a source. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC) IMHO, a splendid example of how things work all too often on Misplaced Pages -- for a rather different sort of take try reading WP:Ab initio showing an attempt to explain the reasoning behind policies, rather than counting angels on the heads of pins within policies <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Closing this discussion in the interests of harmony. Sarek's close was a good close, but I see no harm emerging from allowing the RfC to run a few more days. I think SV should take a break from this issue.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

FYI. There was an RFC on a proposal that began on Oct 5 re WP:V. The RFC had the participation of about a hundred editors. About 8 hours ago it was closed as successful by an administrator and the changes were implemented in WP:V. Since then, the changes have been reverted. A couple of hours ago there began intense activity opposing the proposal, after this edit. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Jimbo. I was just coming over myself, because I'm very distressed at what's going on. (I was the admin who did the close.)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Reminder: Well, I am not convinced that moving "verifiability, not truth" to be lower in the policy page was really a helpful, significant change. What people should understand is that the word "verifiability" requires "truth in representing sources", plus some sources are not correct, so "truth" is an aspect required to judge accurate sources (articles should not cite known false, out-dated sources). Hence, the broader reality is "verifiability and truth" (while the word "not" has been misleading for years). Meanwhile, the phrase "verifiability-not-truth" sounds like convoluted "Yoda-speak" (Yoda: "Do, or do not; there is no "try"), so even when people do not gag about verifiability requiring truth ("verity"), some viewers will read the "verifiability-not-truth" phrase and think, "WTF??" (trendy term for "sounds like utter patent nonsense"). I can appreciate a compromise, to lower the "not-truth" phrase further down into the policy, but "Can't we all just get along" with reality, and accept the fact that Misplaced Pages is in the truth business? -Wikid77 (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You make some good points, but you also miss a few (possibly though due to how obvious they are). Articles should be permitted to cite known false/outdated sources. It's how they are used that's important. I can point out thousands of articles where it is required to cite such sources. One example is Flat_Earth. Besides reasons such as applicable to that article, often, to show historical changes in perceptions and understandings, it is also required to cite incorrect/outdated sources (grossly paraphrased made up example: "In the 1500's scientists believed (some item we believe to be nonsense now){incorrect/outdated cite}, which was later proved to be false{newer cite with current beliefs/theories}").

And of course, truth is often largely irrelevant when beliefs, belief systems and such come into play. In those instances, since for each belief system there are dozens or thousands of conflicting ones, we cannot determine truth, but can simply only posit what each believes without giving weight to which is "true". These are some of the key reasons why verifiability is more important than our own individual "truths". It's one of the reasons that "v... not t..." is so important. Numerous (many many many) Misplaced Pages articles are comprised of way too many beliefs that have counter-beliefs and no universally held "truths". Even the same goes for BLPs, where all we have is what's reported, which is at best just a shadow of the truth. Of course, in those situations, it again boils down to properly using all sources; correct or incorrect, outdated or new. If BillyBob made (notable) claims about MarySue, which were later proved to be false, they still (sources and all) should be included - but with the new information and cites presented as well. Of course, that gets back to weighing the notability and relevance of each.

Simple point is, it's far more complex than "old vs new" or "incorrect vs correct". It's a balancing act that needs to be encompassed by numerous other policies and guidelines to determine how such is applied in each article. And with a lot of NPOV and BALANCE (not bias) applied to ensure due weight to each individually and conflicting views as a whole. At least, those are my thoughts.

One last thought. Too many people seem to pick apart one single policy or guideline in an effort to improve it without looking at the bigger picture to realize that one cannot do that without determining how it affects the interaction of that policy/guideline with the numerous others we are required to adhere to. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 17:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Overcomplicating issues can obscure the role of truth: I agree there is a balance, but when dwelling on "it's far more complex" then there is the danger to overlook the simple factors. It reminds me of the student talking to his parents, "We had a long discussion in philosophy class today, and I no longer know what really exists, perhaps it is all an illusion, and is anything real?" The parents, of course, reply like, "Well, we always thought your car and your allowance were real, but perhaps they no longer exist." Articles should be true to the sources for a specific topic, and the sources should be checked for known factual errors. The key issue is that truth is determined by the collection of sources; when there is a mixed difference of opinions, then that is the limit to the truth of those sources. When people have tried to justify the "verifiability-not-truth" phrase, they use terms such as "no absolute truth" or Misplaced Pages does not seek "The Truth" because that seems to be the heart of the problem (versus truth relative to sources). Instead, when articles are written and copy-edited for corrections, the editors are working with so-called "journalistic truth" where a reporter focuses on what the sources have said or written. That is why "Flat earth" addresses the concept as an out-dated mode of thinking (compared to "The earth is round"), and the old sources are used to show that some people formerly believed in that concept, but secondary sources judge the earlier primary sources as having mistaken notions. WP uses secondary sources to give true opinions about the concepts, where possible. For example, a controversy in that topic concerns quoting Greek philosopher Aristotle out-of-context, where he wrote a comparison of the flat-earth and round-earth concepts, but some people used only part of his text to "prove" he believed the earth was flat (not actually), by quoting selected phrases, out-of-context, and omitting the parts where he noted the earth as round. Step 1: Focus on truth, then the next steps involve weighing the sources and avoiding a partial out-of-context quote about a topic. The focus on truth is how slanted text is judged. When a new WP:RS source is published which reports, "The conviction has been overturned", then WP should change the article to reflect the truth, not pretend the conviction stands as verified by an out-dated source. That is how current up-to-date sources are detected as being omitted, and the focus on truth is why an article which omits the acquittal would no longer be viewed as correct. Misplaced Pages is in the truth business, where truth is determined by all the sources, to the extent possible. Beyond that point, the truth is uncertain, but WP articles do not depend on "verifiability-not-truth" in practice, just in policy wording which confuses many people. The focus on truth is how an editor can determine a word is misspelled, versus a variant spelling, and when to append "" to emphasize a misspelled word is truly a direct quote from a source. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, a splendid example of how things work all too often on Misplaced Pages -- for a rather different sort of take try reading WP:Ab initio showing an attempt to explain the reasoning behind policies, rather than counting angels on the heads of pins within policies <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

FUD tactics or admins know best?

I agree that this was an embarrassing incident, but in the interests of harmony, let's just move onwards
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
After this notice got posted on WP:AN there was a flood of opposes in that WP:V RfC. That's quite interesting sociologically because a notice had been up for nearly month at WP:CENT, which is transcluded on WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Oh, and you only have 15 minutes to comment on the issue above before the offer expires! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Many editors do not pay attention to WP:CENT on a regular basis. Thus, there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the "flood" of opposes and essentially equal flood of approves. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC) For policy change proposals, perhaps something similar to what we use for "Gee, we're all getting together in NYC next weekend. Yay!!!" should be used, that way all editors are made aware of such. I understand the importance (and fun) of interacting with the community at such events, but I'd posit that community involvement in potential policy changes is probably a lot more important. And oddly, though rarely used for such, the mechanisms are already in place to ensure such involvement. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI \| /_CN 17:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this was an embarrassing incident, but in the interests of harmony, let's just move onwards

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

After this notice got posted on WP:AN there was a flood of opposes in that WP:V RfC. That's quite interesting sociologically because a notice had been up for nearly month at WP:CENT, which is transcluded on WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and you only have 15 minutes to comment on the issue above before the offer expires!

ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Many editors do not pay attention to WP:CENT on a regular basis. Thus, there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the "flood" of opposes and essentially equal flood of approves. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

For policy change proposals, perhaps something similar to what we use for "Gee, we're all getting together in NYC next weekend. Yay!!!" should be used, that way all editors are made aware of such. I understand the importance (and fun) of interacting with the community at such events, but I'd posit that community involvement in potential policy changes is probably a lot more important. And oddly, though rarely used for such, the mechanisms are already in place to ensure such involvement. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 17:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

A great idea that can't be missed!!!

Dear Mr Wales,

I was wondering if you would like to include WikiBates into part of the Wiki organisation. WikiBates is a debating part of the Wiki organisation, where once or twice a month you come up with a topic and allow to teams to battle it out to win that certain argument.

I believe this is a great idea and I have 2 people to back me up so far.

yours Sincerely, MYGAMEUPLAY (talk) 12:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

We already have that as part of Misplaced Pages and it happens a lot more then once or twice a month. Just check out WP:ANI or the talk page of any contentious article :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the smile - even if what you say is probably sadly true. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 20:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Happy Halloween!

Sp33dyphil has given you some caramel and a candy apple! Caramel and candy-coated apples are fun Halloween treats, and promote WikiLove on Halloween. Hopefully these have made your Halloween (and the proceeding days) much sweeter. Happy Halloween!

If Trick-or-treaters come your way, add {{subst:Halloween apples}} to their talkpage with a spoooooky message!

"Verifiability and truth"

This may provide an interesting case study on why I think "verifiability, not truth" is a poisonous formulation. Here we had a fairly unimportant claim in an article that Justine Thornton attended Nottingham High School for Girls. The claim was not backed up by the source, but actually sources do exist to back it up. By normal standards, this would be considered legitimate to enter into Misplaced Pages.

But as it turns out, it isn't true. (She told me it isn't true.) There are no sources that I can find of her publicly denying it - it's a silly small error typical of tabloid newspapers, so I doubt if she ever made a big deal out of it.

If you accept the "verifiability, not truth" formulation, you are likely to think that unless we find a source debunking the claim, then merely knowing with some confidence that it is false is not good enough. I don't agree. I think that truth matters too much to be silly about it. Yes, verifiability is a good thing. It is not the only thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That's not what "V not T" means. When editors see that a given citation is wrong, it fails the threshold of WP:RS and that's the end of it. Verifiability means sources cited in article text can be checked by readers (and editors). It's not a licence to knowingly (bad faith) or otherwise (mistaken) dump wrong factoids into an article. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It may not be what it is supposed to mean, but that's literally what it says. And we have plenty of evidence of people misunderstanding the phrase - people say things like "Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the truth" - they are wrong, and this phrase is wrong. It's just false to say that the standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is "verifiability, not truth".

Notice too, the circularity in what you are saying. If the source says something that we know to be false, then that source fails WP:RS. But that's just another way of saying that the truth trumps a source in some cases. We seek verifiability and truth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just to play devil's advocate, how do we know that she was telling you the truth? Maybe she has some motive to have correct information removed from Misplaced Pages? How do we know that you are telling the truth? If someone else removed well-sourced information from an article while claiming "She told me it isn't true", should we allow that edit to stand? Peacock (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

We can and should exercise editorial judgment. We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always. Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain how that statement does not create conflicts with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I still haven't seen a single example of an editor knowingly insisting on adding material to an article based on the fact that it's verifiable. Nor have I seen any evidence that it happens so often, it requires a change of this magnitude. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent contributions (10-27—28) to Alec Baldwin, maybe? It was a case of I-have-one-ref-that-says-what-I-want-so-all-the-rest-of-the-refs-must-be-wrong.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not a change of any magnitude. It's the removal of a false statement that a majority of people have voted to remove, for the main reason that it is misleading and wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)