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Revision as of 19:19, 1 November 2011 edit132.160.54.149 (talk) →Unencyclopedic language← Previous edit Revision as of 19:29, 1 November 2011 edit undoModinyr (talk | contribs)274 edits Undid revision 458508661 by 132.160.54.149 (talk)Next edit →
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Zero, I believe that Palestinian's belonging to resistance movements (like those described in the Third Geneva Convention) that are fighting the IDF (not civilians) are treated as POWs, as have Arabs who surrendered during an Arab-Israeli war. ] (]) 03:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Zero, I believe that Palestinian's belonging to resistance movements (like those described in the Third Geneva Convention) that are fighting the IDF (not civilians) are treated as POWs, as have Arabs who surrendered during an Arab-Israeli war. ] (]) 03:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
:"Convict" is not synonymous with "prisoner", and no amount of special pleading can change this. A convict is someone who has been convicted, not simply someone who is held prisoner. Adding the word "convict" does not help the reader understand, it helps them misunderstand. In any case, this is irrelevant here, since Shalit and the prisoner swap are not the subject of, nor even mentioned in, this article. And please note that your belittling sexist reference to the female prisoners is unwelcome, and I suggest that you amend it. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">] (])</span> 08:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC) :"Convict" is not synonymous with "prisoner", and no amount of special pleading can change this. A convict is someone who has been convicted, not simply someone who is held prisoner. Adding the word "convict" does not help the reader understand, it helps them misunderstand. In any case, this is irrelevant here, since Shalit and the prisoner swap are not the subject of, nor even mentioned in, this article. And please note that your belittling sexist reference to the female prisoners is unwelcome, and I suggest that you amend it. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">] (])</span> 08:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I brought up Shalit because it shows how an exact quote of something can take things out of context. I didn't claim that "convict" and "prisoner" are synonomous, but the source uses them the same way. So if the article is going to be quoted, it should be done in context.

If you have a problem with the word "chick," maybe Misplaced Pages is too raw for you...

To get back to what this section is about, "wholeheartedly" is not how a population's feelings should be described. We should also avoid generalizations like "most" or "prefer."

I have been trying to change these words to neutral ones. ] (]) 19:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

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Edit request from Knightmare72589, 26 June 2011

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Adding more polls to the poll section of the Arab-Israeli article because it seems a little one sided in favor of the Arabs.

A poll directed by Haifa University professor Sami Smooha on behalf of Haifa University's Jewish-Arab Center, part of an annual project by the Center to determine relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel found that: over 62% said that Israelis “are foreigners who do not fit in in this region, and they will eventually leave the country.” Another 71% said that “the Jews are primarily responsible for the 'nakba,' the term applied to the fleeing of the newly declared state of Israel by tens of thousands of Arabs in 1948.

Over half , however, said they would have no problem with their boss being Arab, and nearly 60% agreed that the establishment of the State of Israel was a major “tragedy” for Arabs. ( Majority of Israeli Arabs Oppose Existence of Jewish State)

Results of the latest Arab World for Research and Development (AWRAD) poll showed that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians believe Israel will cease to exist.

A whopping 91 percent said their national historic homeland stretches from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. (Poll: Arabs View All Israel as Palestine) Knightmare72589 (talk) 22:35, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Both pages you cite give 404 "page not found" errors. In any case, Arutz Sheva is not a reliable source for Smooha's findings, or indeed for almost anything in this article. Please find a working link to a reliable source if you want to make any changes to the article. RolandR (talk) 00:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Here are his 2 links working 1st one and 2nd one Jnorton7558 (talk) 00:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Ok, well then here are 2 others.
A 2010 Arab Jewish Relations Survey, compiled by Prof. Sami Smoocha in collaboration with the Jewish-Arab Center at the University of Haifa shows that 71% Arab citizens of Israel said they blamed Jews for the hardships suffered by Palestinians during and after the “Nakba” in 1948. 37.8% denied the Holocaust. The percentage supporting the use of violence to advance Arab causes climbed from 6% in 1995 to 11.5% in 2010. 66.4 percent say they reject Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state, while 29.5 percent opposed its existence under any terms. 62.5 percent saw the Jews as "foreign settlers who do not fit into the region and will eventually leave, when the land will return to the Palestinians."
Poll shows hardening of Jewish-Arab attitudes
'62.5% of Israeli Arabs see Jews as foreign imprint' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knightmare72589 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I am closing the edit request as moot, the user is now auto-confirmed. Monty845 00:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone can find the report of the 2010 Arab Jewish Relations Survey. I can only find mention of an unpublished document. It would be good to be able to use its actual wording, rather than relying on sources like JP which add their own spin. Zero 00:15, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

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Unencyclopedic language

RolandR, look at the edit you are defending. "Wholeheartedly" is not an encyclopedia word. "Many" "most" and "prefered" are all words to be careful with. My edit is using a neutral voice. You are pushing a polemic.

Also, don't accuse me of editing "without any attemppt at explanation." You can plainly see my edit summaries, so don't be baseless. Modinyr (talk) 03:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Modinyr, please read tthe sources cited. They support the wording used. Its not polemic, its quantifying and emphasis that reflects the realities iit describes. The sources are impeccable, and the wording was carefully chosen. I should know because I spent many hours on it. Tiamut 20:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No source can support weasel words. An encyclopedia should avoid words like "usually" "most" and "prefer." I'm not trying to contradict any source, just use a neutral voice. Modinyr (talk) 22:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not following you. NPOV is about representing all significant viewpoints as reported byrealiable secondary sources. The sources used are RS and the information is presented in a way that is faithful to the descriptions provided. How is it neutral to subtlety distort the meaning they convey? Tiamut 20:52, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of self-identification labels currently in use among Palestinian Israelis. Seven of the most commonly used were included in the 2001 survey. They range from "Israeli" and "Israeli Arab" to "Palestinian.

Forty-five percent said they were Arab, 24% think of themselves as Palestinians.

Israeli Arab" is the second-most popular response in the survey (among Arab citizens of Israel).

These three quotes come from three different sources. There are several used to support various generalizations. They don't all agree. In the beginning of the Terminology section, it says...

the preferred terms are Israeli Arabs or Arabs in Israel

but a few paragraphs later...

Terms preferred by most Arab citizens to identify themselves include Palestinians, Palestinians in Israel, Israeli Palestinians, the Palestinians of 1948, Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel

Because of this contradiction, I changed "preferred by most" into "used by many." That is more neutral. We can use the source that calls these terms important, but the source doesn't have enough weight to say "these ARE the preferred terms." Maybe you could say "in certain sectors of Palestinian society, the following terms are preferred."

But it is hard to generalize about people with words like "most." An encyclopedia should avoid them. That is why I'm not subtly distorting anything. There are seven or eight different sources. Torstrick uses the word "prefered", but she is contradicted by the survey. She also doesn't quite agree with Amara, who uses the word "widespread" and different labels.

So are you saying quoting one source and ignoring others is more neutral? Modinyr (talk) 01:12, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no contradiction. Someone deleted information that explained who prefers what. I've restored the information. If you would like to review the section sentence by sentence, I would be happy to. But please stop making changes that alter the quoted and paraphrased content to read differently than what is actually written. Tiamut 08:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Look at this edit. He removed the word "convicted." The source said, "releasing 20 female Palestinian prisoners." He was erasing the word "convicted" so that the wiki would be an exact quote of the article.

Is an exact quote always a true quote? The source said elsewhere that the prisoners released were all convicts of crimes. They weren't political prisoners or prisoners of war. Gilad Shalit is a prisoner of war. Since Sean made the article say "Gilad was exchanged for Palestinian prisoners" that makes it seem like this soldier was released for Palestinian soldiers. This is a way to "subtlety distort the meaning they convey."

So, when you use a source, you need to take it into context and use it to serve the article, not have the article serve a point of view. That is why exact quotes can take things out of context.

I was right to return the word "convicted," so the reader would know more about the context. Plus the fact that they were convicted is supported by the source. The sources we use to verify what Arab citizens of Israel like to be called shouldn't be used by an editor who wants to tell readers what they want the top term to be. Why can't we just list popular self-designations without picking which of our many sources gets to crown a winner? Modinyr (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem with your argument is that you try to follow a distinction invented by Israel. As you know, Israel does not recognise that any Palestinian prisoner is a POW, so the fact that Israel "convicted" them is not by itself a genuine distinction between them and Shalit. Zero 02:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Modinyr, I strongly advise you to think very carefully before you write anything on any talk page from now on. I removed the word convicted because it's not in the Bloomberg source cited. There is no information in the source about the conviction status of the 20 women referred to. They may have been convicted, awaiting trail, imprisoned without trial, who knows. The source cited does not say elsewhere that the prisoners released were all convicts of crimes as you claim. The source doesn't even contain the word "crime" and the only conviction status information in the source cited relates to Armaan and Barghouti. So, the word was removed. You were wrong. Perhaps there is information about the conviction status in a source that isn't cited as I said in my edit summary. I wouldn't know. What I can say with confidence is that if you continue with this level of nonsense I will be pressing for a topic ban. Read sources properly or stop talking. Anymore "This is a way to subtlety distort the meaning they convey" out of you it's back to AE. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

"Subtly distort the meaning they convey" is a quote from Tiamut. But I say an exact quote, taken out of context, can be a distortion.

Anyway, the article clearly calls Shalit a "captive soldier" in the same paragraph that says he'll be swapped for "prisoners."

Armaan and Barghouti are both "among the prisoners." They were convicted of violent crime. There is no exact quote that says "these 20 chicks were all criminals" but the article does make clear that information about Shalit was exchanged for 20 prisoners. In the Bloomberg article, prisoner means convict. It is used only in one context, a prisoner of a (criminal) prison. Shalit is called someone "seized," a "captive," a "soldier," but not a prisoner.

So that is why I added the word "convict," to help the reader understand. The article, in context, said that Shalit was exchanged for 20 Palestinian women from Israeli jails.

Zero, I believe that Palestinian's belonging to resistance movements (like those described in the Third Geneva Convention) that are fighting the IDF (not civilians) are treated as POWs, as have Arabs who surrendered during an Arab-Israeli war. Modinyr (talk) 03:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"Convict" is not synonymous with "prisoner", and no amount of special pleading can change this. A convict is someone who has been convicted, not simply someone who is held prisoner. Adding the word "convict" does not help the reader understand, it helps them misunderstand. In any case, this is irrelevant here, since Shalit and the prisoner swap are not the subject of, nor even mentioned in, this article. And please note that your belittling sexist reference to the female prisoners is unwelcome, and I suggest that you amend it. RolandR (talk) 08:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
  1. Cite error: The named reference undefined was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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