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:No, actually I only undid Space Cadet's indiscriminate reverting. Thanks for pointing out the sentence about partitions. It shouldn't be removed indeed. As for the name, it was the Provinz of Posen (Ger. name) and the Poznan in Polish. The part belonged to the German Empire at the time of the Kulturkampf, so I chose both the German and Polish name in the lead (see double naming). Regarding deletion of sources, unless something hid in the red blocks, nothing was deleted. What source was deleted? I didn't claim that " Kulturkampf was involved with persecution of Poles is revisionism". Don't twist my words. I implied in the German-language noticeboard that giving the Polish part an unprecedented notability was. Of all your few sources that usually only focused on Poles and mentioned the Kulturkampf in passing, none could prove that the Kulturkampf was a fight against Catholicism ''and'' Poles. It involved Poles, yes, but have a look at the sources. Some - for example the Catholic Encyclopedia, the largest source on the Kulturkampf I could find - don't include anything about the struggle against Poles. It isn't the most important point at all. It thus shouldn't be in the lead. Don't revise history. Even dictionaries define it like this and I've never heard of any dispute in that respect: the Kulturkampf was the fight against Catholicism. If you like, we can continue the discussion like that. ] 19:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I mainly concentrate on writing articles about various forms of atrocities comitted in the past in Poland. Be it German torture of Polish children refusing to be Germanised in Września or Soviet murder of Polish resistance members. Understandably this means I get often attacked by people with strong attachment to ideology, state or nation that caused such events as well as those with often hostile view towards Poland. I was even attacked by Polish nationalists as well for mentioning attempts of forgivness to Ukrainians in Ukrainian Insurgent Army article.
In the spare time I also guard articles from vandalism and nationalistic POV pushing,(for example deletation of war crimes information from articles or trying to portay Polish territories as German)
Parts of Federation of Expellees were co-founded and led by former SS members implicated in mass murder operations :
Hans Kruger turned to politics and became the district managing director of the Free People's Party (FVP) in Munster, later switchng to the German Party (DP). From 1949 to 1956, he was state chairman of the Association of Former Germans from Berlin and Brandenburg, (Landsmannschaft Berlin-Mark Brandenburg), where he served as spokesman, a high-powered appointment that was his undoing. In 1954, Kruger was a candidate for the NRW state assembly, campaigning on behalf of the League of Eastern Expellees and Victims of Justice (Bund der Heimatvertrieben und Entrechteten), but again was unsuccessful.
Interesting-German wiki has article on that Nazi-he was the president of BdV.
Interesting fact two-he was sacked as minister of the "expelled"
It seems to me you are confusing two people. The Hans Kruger that your first source mentions was born in 1909, but Hans Krüger was born in 1902. Definitely, there should be an article in enwiki on Hans Krüger: he is an excellent example of a Nazi that worked in high government positions in Germany until the early 1960s, not only chairman of the (non-government) BdV, but even Minister for Expellee Affairs for a while until he was forced to step down because of his Nazi past. Should I file a translation request of the German article for you? Kusma(討論)01:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for correcting that but you don't have to ask for translation I will be able to translate it myself. However I do have a source mentioning his activity in Poland. The book I gave link to also mentions he was accused of taking part in atrocities. I shall of course write article on both of those representants of the "Vertriebene".
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/archiv/Antifaschismus/Themen/Revanchismus/nwh/bdv.html
Kontinuitäten von Krüger ...
Unmittelbar nach dem faschistischen Überfall auf Polen wurde Krüger NSDAP-Ortsgruppenleiter und Richter im okkupierten Konitz (Chojnice) und im November 1940 zum Oberamtsrichter beim dortigen Amtsgericht ernannt sowie 1942 als "Stellvertreter in erster Linie" an das neugebildete Sondergericht berufen. In den offiziellen Vernehmungen nach 1945 sagte der polnische Bürger Pabich aus, daß bereits in den ersten Wochen von Krügers Amtstätigkeit "rund 2000 Polen aus Chojnice umgebracht wurden, die bis zu ihrer Ermordung in Krügers Amtsgerichtsgefängnis eingekerkert waren." (6) Und weiter heißt es in den Zeugenaussagen: "Nach jeder Visite durch Krüger im Gefängnis wurden die Inhaftierten sortiert und ein Teil von ihnen zur Hinrichtungsstätte in das 'Tal des Todes' gefahren, wo sie ermordet wurden." (7) Die Überlebenden bezeugten, daß Krüger "der Schreck des Gefängnisses" (8) war.
Um es noch einmal zu verdeutlichen: Dr. Hans Krüger war Faschist und Nationalsozialist aus vollster Überzeugung. Frühzeitig bekannte er sich zu Hitler und nahm natürlich auch - wie er selber angab - am 9. November 1923 am Hitlerputsch gegen die Weimarer Republik teil. Ab 1933 war er aktives Mitglied der NSDAP und verschiedener anderer nationalsozialistischer Organisationen. Besonders aktiv war Krüger in dem nach 1933 von den Nazis gegründeten und dominierten "Bund Deutscher Osten" (BDO), der ganz speziell in den osteuropäischen Ländern die subversive Wühlarbeit koordinierte und somit maßgeblich an der Vorbereitung des faschistischen Angriffskrieges von Nazideutschland beteiligt war. Der "Bund der Vertriebenen" kann durchaus als die Nachfolgeorganisation des faschistischen "Bund Deutscher Osten" bezeichnet werden, und zwar gerade auch aufgrund vielfältiger personeller Kontinuitäten aus der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus.
Am 16. Oktober 1963 wurde der erste BdV-Präsident Dr. Hans Krüger von dem damaligen Bundeskanzler Ludwig Erhard als "Vertriebenenminister" ins Bonner Kabinett berufen. Allerdings mußte Krüger schon nach drei Monaten seinen Hut nehmen. Enthüllungen der DDR und Polens über seine Nazivergangenheit lösten weltweite Proteste aus und zwangen den Bonner Kanzler zur Entlassung Krügers. Trotz allem behielt Krüger weiter sein Mandat und saß weiterhin als Abgeordneter für die CDU-Fraktion im Bundestag.
--Molobo 10:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
http://zycie.chojnice.pl/print.php?ma=3382&pm=&mn=
Inny osobnik niechlubnie związany z Chojnicami podczas II wojny światowej, to Hans Kruger bo to o nim mowa, - “zasłużył” się jako kierownik okupacyjnego Sądu Powiatowego w Chojnicach w latach 1939 45. Po wojnie minister przesiedleńców w rządzie bońskim. Na początku lat sześćdziesiątych prasa krajowa i światowa rozpisywała się o jego zbrodniach w Chojnicach. Uniknął sprawiedliwości, bowiem niemiecki sąd umorzył postępowanie przeciwko niemu z powodów braku winy. Do dzisiaj żyją świadkowie jego chojnickiego panowania. Zmarł w 1971 r,. w wieku 69 lat. Czy z poczuciem winy? Zapewne nie skoro z takim sentymentem darzył nasze miasto. Wspominał o tym w 1961 r. w wywiadzie opublikowanym w niemieckim czasopiśmie “Stern”.
--Molobo10:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Write an article on Soviet treatment of Polish underground resistance, use a quote from underground newspaper to demonstrate:
It has been established that the NKVD and RB torture their prisoners terribly at the Chopin Street in Lublin, at the Strzelecka Street in Warsaw, and in Włochy The most popular methods of extracting confessions include ripping off fingernails slowly, applying “temple screws” , and putting on “American handcuffs.” The last named method causes the skin on one’s hands to burst and the blood to flow from underneath one’s fingernails. The torture is applied passionlessly in a premeditated manner. Those who faint are revived with a morphine shot. Before the torture session some receive booster shots . The torturers strictly observe the opinion of the chief interrogating officer whether it is acceptable to allow the interrogated to die…. At the infamous Lublin Castle , because of the injuries inflicted during interrogation, mortality among the political prisoners reaches 20 persons per week.
An important part of Polish history. Other facts should be mentioned like the deaths of prisoners in the years 1944-1948 in Soviet prisons on Polish territory(estimated at 25.000 victims).
--Molobo00:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
To remember
Write article about treatment of Poles in Germany and German slogan demonstrating that attitude towards Poles:
'Wenn das Polenblut vom Messer spritzt, dann geht’s noch mal so gut.
--Molobo13:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
A conference organized by the Poland in Europe Foundation was held July 4 at the Melchior Wańkowicz Academy of Journalism, with the participation of many leading politicians and intellectuals, dealing with the issue of Polish-German relations. Artur Heinicz, former director of the International Studies Center at the Polish Senate, stressed that "in fact, there were no Bierut decrees." Bolesław Bierut was the first postwar president of Poland from the communist party. According to Heinicz, an expert on Polish/German issues, the idea of the "Bierut decrees" was to enable a comparison of the situation of Germans in Poland with the situation of the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia. But Benes's decrees are a historical fact, while their Polish equivalents were not even issued by Bierut. In reality, they were merely part of Art. 13 of the Potsdam conference agreement.
That is not to say that the Russian thinkers of the 19th and 20th centuries did not display a real interest in the Slavic question. On the contrary, the question always occupied an important position because Russian thinkers and statesmen felt that Russia could exploit the Slavs for the greater glory of Russia. Thus, for example, the 19th century pro-Slav movement was a self-serving attempt to expand the interests of the Russian Empire with the help of the Slavs, or to use the Slavic population as a source of justification for the Russian policy of expansionism.
--Molobo14:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Interesting:
n his last work, Slovanstvo a svetbudúcnosti (Slavdom and the Future World), Štúr called for all Slavic nations to immerse themselves in a single Russian sea by accepting a common script (the
azbuka), tongue (Russian), religion (Eastern Orthodoxy) and system (tsarist au-
tocracy). Correctly anticipating resistance on the part of the Poles, he cursed
them as Slavonic traitors.
--Molobo01:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
To remember
"Tied to Fascists corpse, he can only hate, lie and deceive." General Okulicki was described as "the murderer and traitor to the cause of his people and Slavdom ... an odious, scandalous figure, well-known in the sphere of espionage and diversion."
--Molobo01:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
To remember
And there is no denying that Sarmatian literature takes a view of Muscovy that the Russians would dearly love to erase. To a Sarmatian, Muscovy had little to do with European civilization. It was a "rude and barbarous kingdom" to be viewed with pity rather than awe. Sarmatian attitude contrasts sharply with the "powerful brother" image the Russians have tried to build in Slavic countries in the nineteenth century, and also in the Soviet period.
--Molobo01:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
To remember
Write an article on Wola Massacre by German forces, give quote to demonstrate the issue of German soldiers attitude toward Polish civilians:
I stayed in the cellar of No. 18 until August 5, when, between 11 and 12 noon, the Germans ordered all of us to get out, and marched us to Wolska Street. This march was carried out in dreadful haste and panic. My husband was absent, taking an active part in the Rising, and I was alone with my three children, aged 4, 6 and 12, and in the last month of pregnancy. I delayed my departure, hoping they would allow me to remain, and left the cellar at the very last moment. All the inhabitants of our house had already been escorted to the "Ursus" works in Wolska Street at the corner of Skierniewicka Street, and I too was ordered to go there. I went alone, accompanied only by my three children. It was difficult to pass, the road being full of wire, cable, remains of barricades, corpses, and rubble. Houses were burning on both sides of the street; I reached the "Ursus" work's with great difficulty. Shots, cries, supplications and groans could be heard from the factory yard. We had no doubt that this was a place for mass executions. The people who stood at the entrance were led, no, pushed in, not all at once but in groups of 20. A boy of twelve, seeing the bodies of his parents and of his little brother through the half-open entrance door, fell in a fit and began to shriek. The Germans and Vlassov's men beat him and pushed him back, while he was endeavouring to get inside. He called for his father and his mother. We all knew what awaited us here; there was no possibility of escape or of buying one's life; there was a crowd of Germans, Ukrainians* (Vlassov's men), and cars. I came last and kept in the background, continuing to let the others pass, in the hope that they would not kill a pregnant woman, but I was driven in with the last lot. In the yard I saw heaps of corpses 3 feet high, in several places. The whole right and left side of the big yard (the first yard) was strewn with bodies. (A sketch of the yard was made by the deponent.) We were led through the second. There were about 20 people in our group, mostly children of 10 to 12. There were children without parents, and also a paralysed old woman whose son-in-law had been carrying her all the time on his back. At her side was her daughter with two children of 4 and 7. They were all killed. The old woman was literally killed on her son-in-law's back, and he along with her. We were called out in groups of four and led to the end of the second yard to a pile of bodies. When the four reached this point, the Germans shot them through the backs of their heads with revolvers. The victims fell on the heap, and others came. Seeing what was to be their fate, some attempted to escape; they cried, begged, and prayed for mercy. I was in the last group of four. I begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, but the German supervising the execution would not allow them to do so, and when I begged him to let me go he pushed me off, shouting "Quicker!" I fell when he pushed me. He also hit and pushed my elder boy, shouting "hurry up, you Polish bandit". Thus I came to the place of execution, in the last group of four, with my three children. I held my two younger children by one hand, and my elder boy by the other. The children were crying and praying. The elder boy, seeing the mass of bodies, cried out: "they are going to kill us" and called for his father. The first shot hit him, the second me; the next two killed the two younger children.
The German view of the swashbuckling, adventurous, disorganised Polish past was picturesque but not designed to appeal to middle-class cultures based on thrift and hard work. German historians demonstrated eloquently that Poland had been a chaotic backwater which needed stabilising and civilising. Their obsession with racial theories ensured that the achievements of any Pole were denigrated, and that any Pole whose achievements were beyond dispute was saddled with German origins
--Molobo02:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Keeping pages readable
Molobo, aside from the issues of the arguments we are having, please help everyone, including your opponets and outside readers, to be able to follow the discussion with you by formatting your comments properly. Don't make a mess. I know you are in rush to accomplish as much as possible in the time you have at wiki, but please be considerate to others.
Similar to how stating the point of the outside page briefly yourself is more helpful for discussion but takes more time than pasting the whole page, proofreading your comments, separating them from others' comments will facilitate the talk page discussions for the mutual benefit. Check for instance this edit I made. I had to take my own time to tidy up after you in order to be able to make sense of who said what and when. Please slow down, excerise some care and you would help youself and the others. Your point mady sloppily, will be actually less voiceful. Thanks, ---Irpen00:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
History of PL 39-45. Thanks for not reverting this time. I will provide the explanation you requested shortly. I am out of time right now. --Irpen17:39, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Kievan Rus
Molobo, please stop uglifying the article by throwing the "fact" templates for every, no matter how widely known, statement. I could easily make your life difficult by going into articles where you wrote something and throw a "fact" template after every sentence (too bad there isn't that many articles that you wrote because warring take up all your time but maybe it is time to correct for that). Anyway, please reconsider at least some of your fact templates. --Irpen20:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Will you agree to bringing back fact template over the disputed section brought by Piotrus ? It was more simpler solution but removed. --Molobo20:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I left Piotrus a similar message. I don't mind reasonably justified templates provided that they are supplied with a good-faith explanation at talk. Challenging the obvious is nothing but an unfriendly fuss. If I go to Polish articles throwing tag templates to every unreferenced statement, several people will have to seize working on any articles for a while adding the refs instead. --Irpen20:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Pics
Hi there! Due to some problems with the {{PolandGov}} I contacted the Internet Information Department of the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs recently and asked for their permission to use the pics on some other license that would enable wikipedia commercial mirrors to use them as well. I called the chief of that department yesterday and he told me he's going to contact his lawyers, but he believes there'd be no problem with that as it's Misplaced Pages, after all (his own words :) ). So, let's wait a tad and I'm sure we'd be able to use those. Halibutt22:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't panic
Don't panic and check the new category I created today:
Category:World War II crimes in Poland. Also, always write which articles you dispute. I can read your mind, but not always. mikka(t)
Czesc Molobo - moge sprawdzic w posiadanych przeze mnie ksiazkach na ten temat. O ile jednak wiem, Polskie miasta w podanych przez Ciebie latach byly raczej niewielkie. Wyjatkiem moga byc pozne XIII wiek, Slask, moze Gdansk i Krakow. Pozostale watpie czy mialy wiecej niz co najwyzej 2-3 tysiace mieszkancow. Rozumiem, ze chodzi o dyskusje kto kogo cywilizowal (my Rus czy Rus nas) :) IMO dyskusja jest bez sensu. Nikt nie moze zaprzeczyc, ze w wczesnym sredniowieczu Rus Kijowska byla bardzo do przodu. Ale potem przyszedl mongolski walec i wszystko wyrownal. W latach renesansu Polska, czy tego Rosjanie chca czy nie, byla nosnikiem zachodnich idei (ale nie jedynym!) do Rosji. Zachodnie (i Polskie) dziela byly tlumaczone z polskiego na rosyjski, a polski przez jakis okres nawet pelnil role funkcje taka, jak u nas francuski.
Szopen09:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Dzieje Gospodarcze Polski (Maczak, Zientara,Ihnatowicz, Landau) podaja nastepujace dane dla okresu druga polowa XIII wieku/Pierwsza polowa XIV wieku. Najwieksze miasta: Wroclaw (19.000) Krakow (12.000) Gdansk (10.000), Torun, Chelmno (oba powyzej 10.000), Poza tym Sandomierz (3.000), Poznan (5-6000). Wroclaw przezyl w XIII wieku okres b. szybkiego wzrostu, to samo tyczy sie Gdanska, a zwlaszcza Torunia i Chelmna. Nie wydaje mi sie, by wczesniej miasta w Polsce zblizaly sie do granicy 10.000 mieszkanców. Szopen09:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Dzięki. Czyli nie 1.000 ludzi w glinianych chatkach jak pewni użytkownicy twierdzili. Ale cóż propaganda ciągle działa.
--Molobo12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't see much there except for the main slogan, which reads Poland: the last dog of the Entente. As to the link - thanks, indeed that was refreshing. Just imagine the dreams I head after reading rubbish like that ;) //Halibutt05:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
User notice: temporary 3RR block on German Empire/Blocked for deleting simple vandalism and violation of 3RR rules by admin
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. The duration of the block is 1 week, due to your previous form William M. Connolley15:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Good then. I shall return in one week and restore all information about Nazi and Soviet atrocities as well as persecution of Poles that will be deleted.
--Molobo15:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to inform you that you violated Wiki rules, a block on 3RR is only maximum 24 hours.
If you violate the three-revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24 hours (UTC), sysops may block you for up to 24 hours
I shall now try to reach you by email, hopefully you will respond this time.
--Molobo18:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It didn't took long
For certain users to grab opportunity
Let's see:
deletion of information that Prussia annexed Polish territory
changing of accepted name of Grand Duchy of Poznań to Posen(the user appereantly is unawere it was the official name)
erasing sources about anti-polish aspects
claiming that Kulturkampf was involved with persecution of Poles is revisionism
