Revision as of 22:50, 29 March 2006

Reference Desk

March 21

Clarkson

Fine, I search for Clarkson and the maopr British person in natislavery stuff does not come up - and you have an article on him. Why??????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumarest (talk • contribs)

Not sure what words were intended by "maopr" and "natislavery". --Slumgum | yap | stalk | 00:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I am a dyslexic typer, so allow me to translate:

     maopr       = major
     natislavery = anti-slavery
     seardh      = search

StuRat 00:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, searches don't search by "importance", they search by spelling, so it's no surprise that you don't get results in order of "importance" - besides which, we'd never agree on what that order might be. Presumably you are using "Go" and getting our "Clarkson" disambiguation page; Thomas Clarkson wasn't on it, but he will be now. - Nunh-huh 00:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the real question is: "Why is it when I get to the Clarkson disambiguation page, I can't figure out how to click the 'edit this page' button so I can add Thomas Clarkson?" I checked it - clicked the 'edit this page' button and added Thomas Clarkson. I didn't see any problem. --Kainaw 01:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Reason for Congress Recess

Could you please explain why U.S. Congress is in recess from October through December 2006? Is this repeated yearly? What do the Congress members do for those months?

Thank you!

Here's a hint. Elections are in November. -- Mwalcoff 00:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

They are also supposed to go home to remain in touch with their constituents by meeting with them and asking them questions. Of course, some find it difficult to do this while hanging out with underaged hookers in Bangkok. StuRat 00:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Simple solution - bring the underaged hookers to the U.S. so they can visit both at the same time. --Kainaw 00:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah-ha, the real reason for Bush's pro-migrant-worker stance is revealed! (BTW, does StuRat have a specific Congressperson or persons in mind, or is he just casting general aspersions?) --Bth 10:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Just general aspersions. I suppose I shouldn't accuse them of going to foreign countries to have sex with underage hookers, when plenty probably do that right here at home. "Buy American !" :-) StuRat 12:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Elections being every two years, will there still be an October to December recess in 2007?

Yes, because underage hookers can be found in Bangkok every year. StuRat 01:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, because the seats are staggered. Only half the house is up for reelection in 2007, the other half in 2008, so everyone gets the campaigning/fundraising time. Plus, it can take months to get your hands into a lobbyist's pockets. Geogre 02:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no. No congressional elections occur in odd-numbered years. You seem to be thinking of the Senate, where approximately 1/3 of the members come up for election every 2-year cycle to make up their 6-year terms. — Lomn Talk 17:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In 2005, there was no Oct.-Dec. recess. The only long recess was in August. -- Mwalcoff 00:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Underdogs

This might count as psychology or sociology or cussedness of human nature... I've often wndered why the following happens - any ideas? When people watch a sports event featuring no teams that they are fans of, they tend to automatically start rooting for the underdog. Say (to use an example from English football) a Man Utd fan is watching a match between Chelsea and Rotherham - they're far more likely to start cheering on Rotherham. I suppose part of it may be that they're throwing their support behind a team perceived as less of a threat to their own team, but I doubt that that would be a strong enough motivation in many cases. Any suggestions as to what causes this underdog support? Grutness...wha? 07:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC) (who spent some of yesterday cheering on a Papua New Guinean swimmer in TV coverage of the Commonwealth Games)

Perhaps because if they put themselves in the losing team's shoes, they would like somebody to be rooting for them. Do unto others etc .... (btw, a lovely word for a champion of the underdog is infracaninophile). JackofOz 09:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Did you just make that word up on the spot, Jack...? :) — QuantumEleven | (talk) 10:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Not at all, but I'm flattered you imagine this might be the case. I would love to be that creative, but I must rest content with the fame I derive from my other gifts. Credit goes to Christopher Morley, who coined it in the preface to "The Complete Sherlock Holmes" (1930). I notice there are 17,500 Google hits for this word, but I first became aware of it in "Mrs Byrne's Dictionary of Unusual, Obscure and Preposterous Words", a book no serious verbophile should ever be without. Its author is Josefa Heifetz Byrne (daughter of Jascha Heifetz). Infracaninophile has now given rise to infracaninophily (the act or practice of supporting underdogs), infracaninophobe (one who is afraid of underdogs), and ultracaninophile (one who favours those who are in power). JackofOz 13:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, mwalcoff and Geogre (sic) for your real help. One reason is that the non underdogs because of their apparent superiority often behave arrogantly. Furthermore, vast majority of people can see themselves as part of a group of regular underdogs than they can see themselves as elites. Furthermore because the odes are stacked against them, just by pursueing what their pursueing the underdog can be seen as behaving with courage. Even if an underdog losses his courage is remembered, more than the fact that he lost. For example the defenders of the Alamo are international heros even though they lost, and Santa Anna is no ones hero and sometimes is thought of as a villian. In addition their many famous cases where the underdog one, most history most famous cases have been victories by an underdog. Small fundemtalist Jewish sect and their nonJewish adherents took on and latter dominated the largest Empire and military machiene of their time (Christans V. Romans). The American Revolution pitted a small group of farmers against british Empire. The founding of isreal pitted the powerfull oil wealthy Arab world agaist a international wandering race, with no money and little international support. Finally many of the world greatest leaders stories are true underdog stories. Many of the worlds greatest individuals, where considered intellectually, physically socially, economiclly inferior Napoleaon as Cadet was considered an underdog because unlike his fellow cadets, he has and Italian and not from an aristocratic background yet he is remebered as the greatest military men. Eisteien probably had a learning disability, yet is now considered histories greatest genouses. Lincoln came from a very humble background and became Americas greatest leaders. Teddy Roosevelt, as a child was consided sickly yet became a great, soldier, president, and fitness ethusiase. Their are recent living examples. John Major a recent British PM is Highschool drop out and worked as bus driver in his youth yet became PM. Even the US Bernard Kerik the son of Prositute and her pimp, a man who lacks a BA (though probally has at least some post secondary education) reached the highest level in americas national security apparatus.

USA PATRIOT Act renewal

I need to update several Patriot Act articles (in particular Title II. However, I'm finding it tough to find the amendment on THOMAS. Can anyone point me to the right spot? If so, I can update the article. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Edward Jacob FSA

Dear Sirs, I have added an article on Edward Jacob FSA. You state that this is original research. It is not. I have added several sources such as the Dictionary of National Biography, yet the article still has not appeared. Please adivse. Kenneth W Jacob

( saving Mr Jacob's inbox from being utterly swamped by spam )

Looks like a good article ! I hope you didn't copy it from anywhere, though, as that would be a copyright violation. Some comments:

1) You may need to pick "reload" or "refresh" on your browser so you can view the new version, versus the cached version.

2) Your references aren't in the Misplaced Pages format. See Winston Churchill#Notes and references for the proper format.

3) Once satisfied, you can remove the {{OriginalResearch}} text from the top of the article so that template will disappear.

4) I don't think the "FSA" belongs in the title of the article. We generally only use the person's name as the title. One way to rename the article is to create a new article named just Edward Jacob, copy everything over, then change Edward Jacob FSA to:

#Redirect ]

5) Your article seems to lack an introduction. It should give a brief overview of the reason for his fame, and contain the title of the article (his name) in bold text.

6) I notice his father had the same name. This would be a problem if his father ever gets a Misplaced Pages entry, too. If you don't think that is ever likely to happen, then we don't need to distinguish between their names, however.

7) It may take several weeks until the Misplaced Pages index is updated so your article will be found when you hit the "Search" button. Until then, you must type the exact name of the article or redirect, then hit the "Go" button, to find the article.

StuRat 11:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

For #4, don't do it as StuRat describes, but use the "move" function (button just to the right of "history"), as it preserves the edit history. — QuantumEleven | (talk) 13:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The edit history is still preserved with my method, it's just under the old article name, where those changes actually took place. You can also add a comment when creating the new article: "See Edward Jacob FSA for old edit history." StuRat 13:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

True - but it's desirable to keep the entire edit history in one place, splitting it up makes no sense as the two edit histories would still be talking about the same article. See Misplaced Pages:How to rename (move) a page.

Anyway, in this particular case, the point is moot since I decided to Be Bold and do it myself :) — QuantumEleven | (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Research of informations

(Removed post -> Don't post on multiple Reference Desks, see the Miscellaneous Desk for question. StuRat 10:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC))

• Note: Duplicate of Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Research_of_informations Notinasnaid 10:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Mrs Dale's Diary

I have had no luck searching on the Internet, so hopefully one of you can help me here! I wanted to edit the Mrs Dale's Diary article to give the name of the TV professor the daughter Gwen became engaged to in the final episode, from 1969. All I can gather is that the actor's name is "John Justin," and I have no clue (and apparently nobody else does either) as to what the character's name was. Hopefully a former listener from the UK can help this Wikipedian! Mike H. That's hot 11:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

arthouse film?

would you classify "american beauty" as an art-house film? state reasons.

i have read the article on art film, but still have no real understanding or grasp on the classification..

if it could be cleared up, would be appreciated. gelo 12:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think rather than getting us to directly answer your homework it would be better if we try and help you understand the article. Can you start with which bits are least clear to you? Let's focus on the first paragraph, but realise that this isn't a rigid category; it's subjective and answering it you'll need to show you understand the way people use the term. Notinasnaid 12:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

When doing homework like this, you should "compare" and "contrast". If you want to argue that it is an arthouse film, find similar films that are well-known arthouse films and compare it to them. If you want to argue that it is not an arthouse film, find similar films that are well-known non-arthouse films and compare it to them. The term arthouse is not discrete. "Pulp Fiction" was an arthouse film that went mainstream after a few weeks of release. So was "The English Patient". Many in the film industry tend to label any independent film or Mirimax film as "arthouse". That has nothing to do with content - just the production. --Kainaw 13:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

sorry. but this ISNT homework.. im genuinely wanting to know. you probably thought that because of "state reasons". but no, this ISNT homework, honestly. gelo 06:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, even if it isn't homework, as Kainaw and Notinasnaid said, classifying a film as "arthouse" is largely a matter of opinion. There are some for which it's obvious - for instance, Armageddon is most blatantly not arthouse. But for many films close to the dividing line between arthouse and non-arthouse it's largely a matter of opinion. American Beauty has some arthouse elements in it, but according to some definitions, arthouse films cannot be as popular as American Beauty was. In the end, you have to make up your own mind about it. Also, remember that whether a film is classified as "arthouse" or not doesn't make an iota of difference in the end, it's just a label. — QuantumEleven | (talk) 07:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the term "arthouse" derives from the 1960's, when a type of theater in the US opened up that would show films that ordinarily weren't shown. They showed "art films" as opposed to popular films. These independent, isolated movie houses, almost always located near universities and in large cities, developed a set of distributors. The theaters themselves never cooperated to create the "arthouse film," but the genre came from the distributors who would serve art houses with films. The films could be popular, but they had to be unpopular at first -- otherwise the arthouses wouldn't show them because they didn't want to try to compete with the corporate theaters. Arthouses served a niche, and they lived and died by being very faithful and exclusive to it. American Beauty had a major distributor and a large advertising budget, and therefore it can't be an arthouse film. That said, people have begun to use the term "arthouse film" for films that are like the films that used to show only in arthouses. American Beauty satisfies that by having an avant-garde director, disturbing subject matter, naturalism, and light plotting. Geogre 11:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the previous is not an accurate definition, as what is an "arthouse" film is at this point and perhaps always has been , entirely subjective. The English Patient was turned down for production by 20th Century Fox even though its producer (Saul Santz) and director (Anthony Minghella)had great success and could hardly be disputed as great film makers (read: The Unbearable Lightness of Being ) and both the novel and novellest are many a prize winner. But the film on screen as it seems in this article we judge them by, was every bit worthy of the scope and wide breadth of Hollywood film making - they called it the Casablanca of 1996, and an "intimate epic". I do not consider this film "art house". I consider it well made and 20th Century kicking itself in the rear for not producing it. But just because something does not have a major distributor and a large advertising budget does not make it more or less anything. The distribution unfortunately reflects on the success of many films, as does the large or small budget, but it always comes down to the making itself. If American Beauty had less of a budget and the same actors, it may have had less sound quality ( but I doubt it ) but would not have been less of a film, so by the above's definition, it is budget that makes a film "art house" or "Hollywood"? I cannot think so. The films spoken of were not unpopular, but had less opportunity due to less of a budget, to distribute and acquire funding and support. Those who ran the art houses to show these films were the visionaries and probably perpetuated the creation of the term "art house" because the films were being shown in their theatres and they believed in them and loved them or at the very least had an audience that would come to see them and spend their money in their theatres, but the quality was no more nor less than has succeeded or failed in Hollywood. My favourite year of the Academy Awards was the year The English Patient received best picture among many other awards, as it was standing up with so many independent films and the only "Hollywood" film was Jerry Macguire, and I think this woke Hollywood up. The art should stand on its own, and as it was proven in that year, it did. And both American Beauty and The English Patient do this, whether the distributors have the intelligence to recognise it or not, and the producers have the foresight to take on the project when they read the script. In the end, I must ask what is it in the content of a film that makes it "arthouse", for now that a certain director has gained Hollywood success but continues to make the same type of film, are we going to judge him and say it is no longer of the same spirit just because he is being backed by MGM or Miramax? We need only to look at the content of the films we have mentioned to ask the question. Is it disturbing subject matter and an avant garde director and natural acting and lighting that make it "avante garde"? Should we even bother to perpetuate the term anymore when film making is where it is at and we have so many films to choose from and enjoy? Does avante garde mean raw and real? I am a sceptic of Hollywood, believe me. But do not think we should be snobbish and make another category, as other films have always been out there... Ckalliope 08:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

1812 overture

In the late sixties, a british popgroup wrote a song called "Night of fear" (I think). The first line og text is: "Silent night has turned to night of fear". The point is that Tsjaikowskis 1812 overture was part of the melody - What was the name of that popgroup?

Is this it -> ? StuRat 12:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

understanding / Cortazar's work 'House Taken Over'

House Taken Over by Julio Cortazar is about the political strife in Argentina but many things still confuse me, such as the knitting which seems so important to the story. There are other symbolisms which I do not understand.

I haven't read that one, but knitting has obvious connotations of creation, motherhood and integration, for a start. The mothers of the disappeared are a vocal group in Argentinian society, so he might perhaps have had an eye on that. Mark 22:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Help with Fine Art...

i have 2 burning questions that i would like on helping information about if at all possible, or peoples opinions...

1) Discuss the implications of the way that public galleries arrange and display modern art.

2) Is there still an avant-garde?

Any information at all that people an help me out with would be very much appreciated.

Thanks again! --212.219.28.91 14:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This sounds very much like homework questions. They are intentionally very broad; part of the skill of writing the essay is that you should try to figure out a manageable strategy for answering. For the first, clearly you are going to have to find out about how public galleries arrange and display modern art; does your city *have* an art gallery featuring modern art which you can peruse?

For a start on your second question, have a look at Avant-garde. --Robert Merkel 14:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Loretta Lynn & June Carter Cash

Is Loretta any relation to June Carter Cash???

Well, everybody is ultimately related to everybody else, but I know of no documented relationship between these two. Loretta Lynn is the sister of Crystal Gayle, if that's any help. JackofOz 16:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No relationship that I'm aware of, though they're both members of country music royalty. AllanHainey 14:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Phallocrypt or necklace?

Read about the koteka and lonkalonka on WIKIPEDIA. The description of the lonkalonka as a phallocrypt hung from male genitalia seems very peculiar, as I have seen an image of one with a twisted thong made of human hair. But to me it seems more like a necklace or ornament for the upper arm, as the thong is too short to get around the waist, and how it could be hung from the genitalia and called a phallocrypt, is beyond me. I have never seen pictures of aborigines wearing these lonka lonkas, so how do you know this is a phallocrypt? Someone who can explain how they are fixed to the body or lead me to an image so I am no more in doubt... Are there pictures anywhere of the ornaments of jade and hardstone hung from the genitalia in South America, in other words, is this a fact? Nothing surprise me about garments, but seeing is believing... The koteka, on the other hand , has got an historian/entropologist to suggest that they could have been worn by people here in Scandinavia during the bronze age due to the many rock carvings of males with axes and phallos. And why not..? Thank you. Steinar Ådland

• I see what you refer to in the Koteka article. (It might have been better to put this comment on the discussion page there, by the way.) The information you refer to was added by an anonymous editor who apparently could himself use some editing . . . "lonkalonka" refers to the type of carved and decorated shell, not the type of item the shell is made into. I have seen a picture of one of these with a 23" "strap" attached, so I'm not ready to give the anonymous editor the lie just yet. I'm moving a copy of this discussion to the relevant talk page in the hope that your question will be better addressed there. Crypticfirefly 04:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Therston Guast?

where can find one?--152.163.100.72 18:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I find no matches for that name in Google, are you sure it's spelled correctly ? StuRat 20:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Josefsburg, Galacia

I am trying to determine if the town of Josefsburg in the former state of Galacia in the Austro-Hungarian Empire still exists and what it might be called now. It was located about 40 miles southwest of Lemberg, (now L'viv) near the Dneister River. This area is now part of southwest Ukraine. A nearby town previously called Brigidau is now apparently called Laniwka. Was Josefsburg perhaps destoyed in WW2.

--Vic Thomas 18:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)VicT.

This site mentions three Josefbergs in Galicia. I havent got a detailed map to hand to check where they are in relation to Lviv. Presumably Josefsberg was a village in one of the three raions - Drohobych, Strochabiez or Stryi. Jameswilson 00:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

If you go to maps.altasua.net and zoom in real, real close to Letnia (the closest town of any significance), you can see a teeny village called Korosnytsia (Коросниця). This was an alternate name for Josefsburg, according to this old map. If you do a Google search on Korosnytsia, you'll find other people who have been looking for the same village. According to this page, the village has 144 people. -- Mwalcoff 01:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I very much appreciate the assistance. Oh by the way, I can't seem to link to the maps.altasua.net. Is th URL correct?

--Vic Thomas 16:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)Vic Thomas

Works on my computer. Make sure to click on the British flag if you're not up on Cyrillic and Slavic languages. -- Mwalcoff 23:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Band that combines traditional music of three Abrahamic religions

Thanks very much in advanced for any help! I'm searching for a (possibly new age) band that makes music which combines the traditional music of the three major Abrahamic religions, i.e. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Gregorian chants and the like... Mostly instrumental with some vocal hymns. All I can remember is that I followed a link from somewhere onto their website, and that the website had a brownish/reddish background colour, I also listened to some clips provided on their website, I remember a Gregorian hymn, and also a female vocal from the Islamic musical tradition. Lastly, I think their band was formed around 2002-2003ish, sorry that I don't remember much. I've tried to look them up on Google, Yahoo, and Amazon, but unfortunately to no avail. Any help/leads would be much appreciated! --Shibo77 19:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

-- This might not be what you were initially looking for, but is very much along the lines of what you are describing: The Foundation for Universal Sacred Music. They comission several pieces of music each year from composers who - regardless of religion or region - write sacred music. Good luck on your initial search. Don420 14:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you aware of this Misplaced Pages talk:Censorship ?

For myself, I would like to say that the method is not innocent. The subject is truly important : there is one talk page and twoscore people discussing auto censorship for one million (counting non active users). Will you give your advice ? --DLL 20:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Major to Minor

I know the C major scale's relative key is A minor. To get from one to the other (respectively) you must go down 1 1/2 steps. Is this a hard-fast rule? Like F major is is D minor, E flat major is C minor? schyler 21:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the way it works. But I wouldn't call the interval "1 1/2 steps" - it's actually 3 semi-tones. JackofOz 23:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd call it a minor third. —Keenan Pepper 03:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd call it 300 cents. Or 316 cents. Or something like that. But just because I enjoy being pretentious anonymously. Seriously. --George 05:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Was Margaret Beckett Official Leader of the Opposition and Leader of the Labour Party?

The template Template:LabourPartyPresidents (for Labour Party leaders) lists Margaret Beckett between John Smith and Tony Blair. But the Tony Blair page succession boxes list Tony Blair as the successor to John Smith both as Labour Party leader and as Official Leader of the Opposition. There has been discussion of this on the talk page for Margaret Beckett, and I have asked about this on the talk page for Tony Blair, but have not recieved any answers yet. Does anyone here know? I suspect she was acting leader of the Labour Party, but that you can't be acting leader of the Official Opposition (there either is a leader or there isn't one). Carcharoth 22:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

She was acting leader of the Labour party and therefore leader of the opposition. What's the problem? Mark 22:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

She should not be listed as Leader of the Labour party. She was deputy leader when John Smith died, and therefore acting leader. Why is thistemplate so named anyway!? There is no such position as president of the Labour Party in the UK. The title is Leader - see the NEC page http://www.labour.org.uk/nec Jooler 22:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Quite right, between May and July 1994.PhilipPage 23:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

She doesnt count as leader - just a caretaker until the next leader was chosen. And agreed, there is no such title as Labour Party President. Jameswilson 00:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The correct terms appear to be "Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party" and "Leader of the Labour Party". The posts have been split between two people since 1970. For further details see here. Carcharoth 12:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Carcharoth's assumption that "you can't be acting leader of the Official Opposition" is incorrect. She would have been correctly described as "Acting Leader of the Labour Party" and "Acting Leader of the Opposition". When the Leader of the Opposition goes on holidays, or is sick, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition becomes Acting Leader until the Leader returns to duty. When the Leader dies, the Deputy becomes Acting Leader pending the election of the new Leader. If the Deputy is elected to the top job, they would cease being Acting Leader and become Leader. JackofOz 01:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree in the case of Leader of the Labour Party, where there are doubtless clear rules covering who is leader and acting leader at any one time. Though somone has pointed out here that the Labour Party rules at the time drew (and probably still do draw) a distinction between temporarily unavailable (holiday, short sickness) and being permanently unavailable (death, resignation). This is standard practice to avoid a power vacuum. In the case of John Smith dying, Margaret Beckett became leader. The wheels were then set in motion to have an election. The case for Official leader of the Opposition is more complex. This is a salaried job and official title. I will need to follow up the relevant legislation, as stated below, but see the comments on what happened in WW2 here. Carcharoth 12:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

An acting leader is a kind of leader. If you really want to know whether she was officially Leader of the Opposition, then you should consult the relevant legislation: it seems to be governed by the 1937 Ministers of the Crown Act (possibly since replaced) and various parliamentary standing orders. Mark 11:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I do have one further question... If Margaret Beckett was officially leader, then did she stop being deputy leader, and if so, who took over that role in the interim period between John Smith's death and Tony Blair's election and subsequent appointment of John Prescott as his deputy (or was it a joint ticket)? Carcharoth 12:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

From a reply I wrote on Talk:Tony Blair last night:

It's a difficult issue and brings to mind the constitutional disagreement in the US over whether a Deputy President became the President on the death of the incumbent, or became the Acting President, or remained the Deputy President but with Presidential powers. Formally, the Labour Party rules at the time of John Smith's death said this (rule 5 (4)): "When the party leader, for whatever reason, becomes permanently unavailable, the deputy party leader shall automatically become party leader until a new party leader is elected". So Margaret Beckett was actually Leader of the Labour Party, and in fact during this period material was indeed issued which identified her as such. David | Talk 22:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

One more comment, taken from this source is: "On two occasions the death of the Leader of the Labour Party has led to a Deputy Leader becoming Leader pending the election of a successor. The Leader from 18th January 1963 to 14th February 1963 was George Alfred Brown (b. 2nd September 1914, d. 2nd June 1985). The Leader from 12th May 1994 to 21st July 1994 was Margaret Mary Beckett (b. 15th January 1943). Mrs Beckett was the first woman to be the Leader of the Labour Party." This makes it perfectly clear that Margaret Beckett was Leader, if only briefly and in a caretaker role. She did stand in the ensuing election, but from memory was never thought to be a serious contender. That quote also shows that George Alfred Brown needs to be added to the list of Labour Party Leaders. What I don't understand is why Jooler said, quite categorically, that Margaret Beckett shouldn't be listed as leader. This is just wrong! Carcharoth 13:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The George Brown you want is George Brown, Baron George-Brown. PS the author of that source is really very good and someone should give him a job paying lots and lots more! David | Talk 14:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I did find that George Brown, Baron George-Brown page when making the changes, and I thought it was quite funny that a George Brown has already been leader of the Labour Party! :-) Carcharoth 14:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah. I've just read this and this. I see what you mean now! ;-) Congrats on such an impressive website, and thanks again for the advice. Any advice on where to get confirmation of the loose ends of this discussion would be much appreciated. Carcharoth 15:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

And a final response, mainly to JackofOz's comment that I was incorrect to assume that you can't be acting Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, is a quote from the PDF document here PDF link and here Google HTML link: "The Speaker’s decision on the identity of the Leader of the Opposition is final (Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975 (c27) s2 (2))" - though this seems to be with reference to who draw the salary. I would guess that if Margaret Beckett didn't draw the salary, she was nominally the Leader of the Opposition (ie. informally recognised as such), but not officially unless the Speaker recognised her as such. For what it is worth, the list at the bottom of that document does not include the interim Labour leaders (Brown in 1963 and Beckett in 1994) as Leaders of the Opposition. My guess is that the post was vacant until the new leader was elected, with maybe the interim leaders nominally filling the role for a few months for the purpose of parliamentary procedures, but not drawing a salary. That is just a guess though. Wouldn't know where to begin confirming that.

Based on the above discussion, I've tidied up the Labour Leader and Official Leader of the Opposition entries I can find in Misplaced Pages, but may have missed some. Where is the best place to archive this discussion, I wonder? It seems to cover several pages! Apologies for turning a reference desk question into a discussion! :-) Carcharoth 14:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Seems I was wrong (shock! horror!). I was assuming the Australian experience mirrors what happens in the UK, but apparently not entirely. But there is an analogy with our Prime Ministers. Following the deaths of John Curtin and Harold Holt, Frank Forde and John McEwen respectively were appointed Prime Minister, not merely acting PM. The appointments were not meant to be indefinite, but only for as long as it took the party concerned to get over the shock and organise itself to elect a new permanent leader. Because of this caretaker role, they are sometimes referred to as "acting Prime Minister", or their names are even sometimes left off lists of Australian Prime Ministers, both quite incorrect. JackofOz 01:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Immigration

Could you please tell me the U.S.A's current immigration laws.

I can't, but someone at The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services probably can. --Kainaw 23:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

See Title 8, Chapter 6 of the US Code. -- Mwalcoff 01:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

March 22

Parliamentary Sovereignty in Oz.

Hi, Thanks for your previous comments. I guess that I am also asking about the role of the High Court of Australia in the whole law making process. The High Court is able to over turn laws made by the legislature of they are unconstitutional... does this mean that you cannot say that parliament is the ultimate law making body in Australia?

The High Court cannot make laws, only the Parliament can do that. The High Court can overturn laws, which I suppose means the previous law (if any) is reinstated, but I'm not enough of a lawyer to say just what happens when a law is overturned. The High Court cannot act on its own volition. It must wait to be asked to consider the constitutionality of laws. In my view, that means the parliament is the ultimate law making body in Australia. JackofOz 05:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Jack, what about the Common Law courts. They too make laws don't they? This doesn't affect the Parliamentary sovereignty bit, but does that affect the fact that the parliament is the ultimate law making body? Just trying to get my head around it! Thanks Northcoastbaby.

In my view no court can make a law. They can interpret laws, and their interpretations often become precedents for the way future cases are decided. If the parliament doesn't like a court's intepretation of a law, they can amend the law to clarify the intent. Courts often have wide discretion, often virtually none (such as where mandatory sentencing applies), but they are always ultimately subject to the law, which is not their creature but the parliament's. JackofOz 01:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

To add to this, when the parliament amends a law to clarify intent, or makes any other law that clashes with common law, the parliamentary law overrides common law to the extent of the incompatibility between the two. I think. The Mad Echidna 20:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, I know that this is not the right place to ask this, but I have been trying to find how to write up my own profile like your fabulous one, JackofOz, and am unable to get the right information. Thanks, Northcoastbaby.

Thanks. Come and talk to me at my talk page, here. JackofOz 14:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Prisons

Hi. I'm writing a research report on my hypothesis on the future of Canadian prisons. I was wondering if you would know where I can find information on who decides when to build one? I am somewhat pressed for time, and have been through so much information at this point that my kids are about ready to pull my hair out for me! I would appreciate the help, even though this information is probably only going to rank in the intro / context, it is still important to me. Thanks. 207.216.159.184 05:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I would imagine the Department of Correction, or whatever it's called there, would submit a request for a new prison to the legislature. Depending on the law there, it would then either be decided upon by the legislature or put up to the voters as a referendum. Maybe somebody else can give you more specifics. StuRat 05:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Corrections is generally a provincial matter. For example, in Ontario, it would be the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, although I would assume a decision as big as where to be a prison would require Cabinet approval. -- Mwalcoff 04:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

College project, I need help from women

I was told this was a good place to come for help. I'm taking a course in Islamic studies, and I'm doing a project which requires the assitance of women. I've already used all of my friends who are willing to take part in this.

The project has to do with how Muslim women dress. If you're a woman who thinks she may be interested in helping me, please take a look at my website.

http://www.geocities.com/rachelborange

Men, please don't respond or email me unless you know a woman who's interested. It would just be a waste of time. Thanks to everyone interested. Rachel Orange 08:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

add text

hello how can I add text because I have a lot of information about a men named ewald marggraff I was one of his best friends for 14 years he died and we belive he has been murdered so I have a lot to tell about him

There already is an article about him, Ewald Marggraff, so you can edit that. But please remember that wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view and should not present original research or theories. David Sneek 10:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

If someone has the time, that article needs some severe editing. Mark 11:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed. I'll see if I can get some work done on it. --JoanneB 11:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

in the begining......

does anyone know why God created light twice in genesis? cos( correct if wrong) on the 3rd day he created the sun,moon and stars, the source of light before electricity and natural source of today, but on the first day he already said let there be light? can anyone think of what the bible could be referring to? --Crazypinkster 12:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the creation myth in the Bible started out as between 2 and 5 stories, which were then brought together when the Bible was constructed. Two of them are called the J- document and P-document (what, no articles on these ?). This has led to some discrepancies in the order in which things are supposed to have been created. Also, the people at the time may not have understood that the light in the sky during the day is diffracted sunlight (this is the only source of light on an overcast day). So, to them, it made perfect sense that the Sun would be created on one day and this "sky light" would be created later. StuRat 13:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is the theory that there were 4 stories from which the first 5 books of the Bible were written:

A form and redaction critical approach to the Pentateuch that argues four distinct authors constructed the work; J = the Yahwist, E = the Elohimist, D = Deuteronomist, P = Priestly.

JEPD theory came from the form criticism of the 18th century which began to look at units of Biblical texts in terms of their oral forms before they were recorded in written format. Redaction criticism then began to examine how authors might link these story forms into a single text that supports the argument the author wishes to make.

In the Pentateuch two major names are used for God, YHWH (or Yahweh or Jehovah) and Elohim. Some sections of the Pentateuch exclusively use the name Elohim for God (Gen 1) while others exclusively use YHWH (Gen 2). YHWH tends to be spoken of more in anthropomorphic terms (he walks in the garden and creates with clay, Gen 2), while Elohim is described in more majestic, distant terms (he creates by his voice, Gen 1). This lead some to propose that two different authors, one preferring to use YHWH for God’s name, and another who preferred Elohom, recorded various stories in the Pentateuch and that later editors assembled these stories into the Pentateuch we have today.

Formally, the four author theory is as follows:

The Yahwist - a 10th or 11th century B.C. wrote what is now called the J Document. The Elohist – a 7th century author added new material to the stories older YHWH stories. The Elohim stories present a more elevated and advanced God. The stories are called the E Document. The Deuteronomist – 2 Kings 20 tells the story of Israel’s King Josiah recovering the Law and founding that it commanded that worship should only take place in Jerusalem. JEDP theory proposes that in fact Josiah had the Deuteronomist create these laws and add them to the Pentateuch in order to justify his desire to limit worship to Jerusalem. These additional laws form the D Document. The Priestly Group – the temple was destroyed in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians. While Israel was in exile and after they returned, the Priestly group added additional laws to the Pentateuch. This is known as the P Document.

StuRat 13:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Crazypinkster, StuRat has given you one possible answer (the documentary hypothesis explains the possible historical origins of the Bible). If, like myself, you don't assign any divine truth to the Bible, StuRat's further extrapolations are a reasonable guess. If you, however, believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, you may place a different interpretation on things. One possible approach is to accept Genesis as a poetic account of creation; the question then arises, I suppose, is there any special metaphorical significance to the part you describe. For that, you're best off consulting your priest as to what it means. AFAIK there isn't any expert theologians who answer questions here on the RD (if there are any in the woodwork, please come out of it...). If you're asking from the perspective of Biblical inerrancy, again, ask your priest. I'd personally like to hear the answer myself... ---Robert Merkel 13:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

From a poetic perspective, light has to exist before there is a lit star. You have to have the concept and entity before you have any given iteration. God created light, and then he set up the sun and moon which would have the aspect of light to them. Poetically, the authors knew primary vs. secondary qualities, and they especially knew of a difference between an essence and an existence. In fact, in that regard the Hebrews were way ahead of almost everyone. Geogre 13:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

And do poets say you can have light without any source ? Scientists most certainly don't. StuRat 17:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Light would exist without a source as a concept, and to any idealist would exist as an essence without existence. Geogre 20:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Manifestos

May anybody tell me the "manifestos" of the following:

• Christianism as a whole, Catholicism, Protestantism
• Buddhism
• Islam (Qu'ran?)
• Jewism

Thanks in advance.

See Religious text. --jh51681 15:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

These religions don't have 'manifestos' as such. They do have foundational documents. For Christians (all kinds) that would be The Bible. There are also a number of different Creeds, which are statements of belief. DJ Clayworth 18:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

While I'd agree that the Qu'ran is the foundational text for Islam, I wouldn't say that the Bible is that in the same sense for Jews and Christians. Rather, the sacred scripture grew out of their communal experience. The closest thing I can think of as a "manifesto" in Judaism is the beginning of the Decalogue: "Then God delivered all these commandments: I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me...." (Exodus 20:1 ff.). For Christianity, Jesus' declaration of his mission, quoting Isaiah, will do: "He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.'" "Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing," he continued (Luke 4:16-21). Pretty manifestational in both instances. --Halcatalyst 02:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Zambia

Can you plese tell me who wrote the article on Zambia and when/ THanks . I need it for my APA sytle reference page.

Use Special:Cite to look up citation styles for Misplaced Pages articles. --jh51681 15:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

More than 100 edits for this page ; a good average. The "cite" link simply says "Author: Misplaced Pages contributors". This means that it is a collective work, as almost every WP article. --DLL 21:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Paul

I have an old text here, talking of an epistle of Saint Paul, reporting Paul to say something like "you see that those who fight and compete for worldly fame abstain from the lust of the flesh". I was so far unable to identify the epistle referred to here. I was searching for terms like "lust", but nothing came up. Does Paulus say anything of the kind, anywhere? dab (ᛏ) 16:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

This is probably not what you are looking for: "No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer. Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules." (2 Timothy 2:4-6) (biblegateway.com) Thuresson 17:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

hm, at least it mentions athletic competition. KJV has

No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

I searched KJV, but I didn't think of searching for "warreth" or "strive". I think this may well be what I'm looking for, turned to his own purposes by my author. Thanks, dab (ᛏ) 13:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Most famous pope

Which of all the popes would be considered the most famous.

That depends on your definition of "famous"; in the sense of "which pope is currently known and recognized by most people", my bet is on John Paul II simply because he was around for so long that almost everyone currently alive instantly thinks of him when thinking "Pope" -- Ferkelparade π 17:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

In the sense of "which pope has been known and recognized by most people all-time", my bet would be on Saint Peter. --Metropolitan90 05:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The only qualification I would make to that statement is that there is utter disagreement as to whether Peter is properly counted among the popes at all. Even the Vatican is equivocal about it. See a long debate about this issue. JackofOz 09:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Vatican has any qualms about enumerating Peter as the first pope. - Nunh-huh 05:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a perfectly reasonable question and I don't think Peter is the answer, since he's not really famous for being pope per se. Gregory XIII probably has had the most direct effect on the world, with Pius IX and John XXIII just behind. I am blameless 05:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Fame is a very fleeting phenomenon and an ill-defined concept. What is the measure of fame? Somebody who was world-famous 50 years ago might be a nonentity today. The question was not about all the popes who have ever been famous (because that would include rather a lot of them). We can really only look at popes who are famous today. Ask the "man in the street" the name of the Pope after whom the Gregorian calendar is named, and maybe 1 in 50 will tell you the correct answer or be able to give any details of how, when or why it came about. His impact is undeniable (or the reform named in his honour is), but Gregory XIII himself is not famous today. My gut feeling is that most people would immediately mention John Paul II, with John XXIII coming a distant second (he'd get a mention from middle-aged people or older, who remember the Vatican II reforms such as introduction of the vernacular). None would mention Benedict XVI, who is very much an unknown quantity almost a year after his election (in utter contrast to his predecessor who made his mark very early on) and looking like becoming one of the most nondescript and irrelevant popes in history. Very few would talk about John Paul I, Paul VI, Pius XII or any of the earlier popes including Pio Nono. It makes me wonder why we spend so much time sweating blood over our Misplaced Pages articles on these gentlemen. But I guess it keeps us off the streets. (Thus endeth today's rant from Jack). JackofOz 06:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Theme song

I was wondering if anyone knows who sings the theme song to Extreme Makeover Home Edition, and also the name of it.

Answer:

The band O.A.R. (Of a Revolution) sings the song, and the title of it is Unbelieveable. (Not 100% positive on the title, but I found more than one referance to it) :)

President visiting Congress

On the West Wing they said that before the President can give the State of the Union address the Congress must first issue him an invitation to attend. Is this true, and if it is does it derive its heritage from the right of the House of Commons to exempt the monarch from its sessions?

I don't believe the former is true (I expect it's a distinction of "does" rather than "must"), nor is the president required to give the State of the Union address in person -- there was a 100+ year gap (virtually the entire 19th century) in which it was not so delivered. However, this likely falls under the various rules set forth by the House and/or Senate for their own operations, and I've not found those.

As for the roots of such an invitation being from the House of Commons: perhaps indirectly. However, since it would be found only in the internal rules, and not in the Constitution proper (which makes no reference to the issue at all), it would seem to be a minor cause at most. Also, the VP is free to attend any and all Senate sessions in his role as Senate President, so the physical separation of Executive and Legislative isn't really a big deal. — Lomn Talk 20:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Still, as a matter of courtesy, I'm sure the Congress would appreciate it if the President doesn't walk in uninvited, just as the President wouldn't expect Congressmen to just walk in to the White House uninvited. I suppose that if the President had the right to walk into Congress and talk whenever he wanted, he could deliver a Presidential filibuster, and just keep talking until Congress goes into recess, say to prevent them from overriding a Presidential veto. StuRat 00:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Please don't say that too loudly, or else someone might hear you and get inspired...not that he's ever actually vetoed anything...Brian Schlosser42 14:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

That's probably a fairly moot point because the President already has a lot of other, more effective ways to influnce Congress. The White House press room alone give him an unusually useful way to get his message across, especially if presidential press conferences are so rare that any all the media outlets will jump on any occasion that presents itself. So, if the President wants to stop Congress from passing a law he's going to veto, the public may know about it even before the Congressmen do. sebmol 07:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

An island named "Gab-uh-boo-too"

I'm looking for the correct spelling of the name of an pacific island which is roughly pronounced "gababootoo". I seem to recall it was involved in the Pacific War during World War II, but I'm not sure of the pronounciation or the spelling. Does such an island actually exist? -Alecmconroy 17:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I guessed that the most likely spelling was Gababutu and tried a Google search on that. There were two hits. One was irrelevant, but the other was to an item at a "movie nitpickers" web site, referring to the 1965 WW2 movie In Harm's Way. The fact that there were no other hits suggests to me that the place is a fictional one, made up for the movie (or for the novel it was based on, Harm's Way by James Bassett). Alternatively, it could be that it's a real place but the spelling is seriously wrong. (I tried a bunch of other spelling permutations, assuming that the A's and the consonsants were right. The only one that produced any Google hits was Gabbabootoo, but all the hits turn out to be finding copies of the same old message which appears to be using it as an example of a fictional distant place. But if it was a real place with a seriously wrong spelling, this sort of technique wouldn't help.) --Anonymous, 20:30 UTC, March 22, 2006.

Most Pacific languages (certainly all Polynesian ones) only allow a small number of possible consonant-consonant combibations of letters, so the double b spelling is unlikely. Gababutu sounds and looks believable, but the G and B rule out almost every Polynesian language. So if it were a real place and your spelling is close, then it would more likely be in Melanesia or Nicronesia. This would make somewhere from the Solomons through to the Marshalls the most likely locations. Mind you, Anon is almost certainly right about it being fictional. Grutness...wha? 06:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Nepenthes Coccinea

Can anyone give me complete directions on the care, feeding, deadheading, etc of this plant. thank you...68.194.131.37 23:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Good place to start for advice on the care of any carnivorous plant is Peter D'Amato's The Savage Garden (Berkeley: 10 Speed Press, 1998) ISBN 0898159156 Further questions can be asked & answered on the Carnivorous Mailing list. -- llywrch 02:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

morality?

why do so many people feel the need to rebel against Christain moral values? Isn't it true enough that these are universal to most people, and that any decent society should have a good idea of right and wrong?--Mytrjf 23:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this a chat room or an encyclopaedia? Maid Marion 08:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

No, most people don't believe in Christian morality as defined in the Bible, particularly these parts:

• If you feel that God commands it, it's OK to murder your children.

• Women are to be subservient to men.

• Slavery is OK.

• If you feel that God commands it, you may commit genocide against your enemies.

Then again, many people also don't believe there is anything wrong with fornication or adultery. Then there are all sorts of new rules, not found anywhere in the Bible, which some church officials seem to have made up and declared to be "the will of God":

• No abortion.

• No birth control.

• No genetic engineering/cloning.

• No science in general.

StuRat 00:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

totally agree.--Cosmic girl 22:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need the indignation of StuRat's comments to point out that some Christian values are not universal. Monogamy, for one. And premarital chastity. And of course, even within Christianity, there are a lot of disagreements over what moral values should be. The Southern Baptists have a drastically different view of morality from the Unitarian Universalist Association. -- Mwalcoff 00:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, many people don't consider the Unitarian Universalists to be Christian. --Serie 01:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

StuRat is clearly upset over this issue—one of the controversial aspects of Christianity (like all religions with ancient religious texts open for interpretation) is that various passages are open for interpretation—for example, the commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth" (which is Biblical), which some interpret to mean that contraception is bad (and other such things). The Jade Knight 01:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Those first four things that StuRat listed aren't found anywhere in the Bible. Also, who said that science and religion must differ? They don't! They complement each other! Anyway, people rebel against Christian morality for the sake of rebelling. They want to feel special by opposing something. —OneofThem_(contribs) 20:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

As for the first four things, here is my evidence:

• God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Thus, it was expected that anyone who felt they were ordered by God to murder their children should do so:

(Gen. 22) 1Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. 2Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

This commandment is clearly not written for women, but for men, with women as their property:

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

That last example also covers slavery, where "manservant" and "maidservant" were euphemisms for slaves. They sure weren't paid employees and weren't free to leave. Also, with slavery widespread in biblical times, you don't see any commandment against it, do you ?

As for being willing to commit genocide if God commands it, we have this command from God:

(1 Samuel 3) "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

Saul then went and killed everyone but spared the King of the Amalekites, Agag, and God's response was:

(1 Samuel 10) Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."

StuRat 01:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I recommend you read The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis, particularly the appendix, Illustrations of the Tao, for his interpretation of this. By and large, many values seem to permeate most (but never all) major cultures of the world. Some Sociologists argue otherwise, but usually contrary examples are minor or small fringes of society—rarely a substantial proportion of the world. However, these values, then, are not "Christian" values, properly, but universal values—things like not murdering or stealing, the importance of honouring one's parents, etc. The Jade Knight 01:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do people rebel against any moral code? Because they can.

How are people introduced to a moral code? Thru their parents, teachers, religious leaders & other adults -- all of whom are human & likely to act hypocritically or otherwise set a bad example. A minister rails against premarital sex -- then it's discovered he's gotten a teenaged girl pregnant; a businessman boasts that hard work is good for everyone -- only to omit the fact he took over the business his father built up. And then there's the case where a kid decides to express her/his own individuality by attacking everything her/his parents believe in.

So why do you ask? Do you honestly want to know why they reject a moral code, or are you seeking approval to look down on them? People rebel for all sorts of reasons, & the only way you can know what they are is by asking them. Their reasons might just surprise you.

I can't speak about other religions, but one of the foundations of Christianity is the concept of forgiveness. Consider the Parable of the Prodigal Son: a kid demands that his father give him his inheritence, & he pisses it all away on fast living, good-looking women & fun times -- & hits rock bottom. Realizing that he has screwed up his life, he goes home to his father who receives him with great joy -- forgiving all of his misdeeds. The kid needed to express his individuality, & his father understood because he knew his son & did not look for a way to dismiss him as being somehow unclean.

I would hope that a good Christian would care about other people & try to help them find a way to live their lives according to a healthy moral code -- even if it wasn't a letter-perfect expression of what was written in the Bible. However I'm not a good Christian, so I can't tell you this is how you should live. Only you & God know that answer. -- llywrch 03:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How about the fact the so many Christians are about hatred and judgement? Many are also hypocrites. And the fact the W is a "Christian" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the faith. --Nelson Ricardo 06:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It can also be argued that certain people rebel against 'Christian' moral values because not only do they not agree with them (see StuRat's comments above), but they resent having morality imposed on them, as it were. You can consider it in a similar vein to listening to heavy metal music as a way of saying "I won't have my CD collection dictated to me". Flippant example, I know, but I wanted to illustrate the point. Additionally, from what Nelson said, certain people, while they may agree with the basic tenets of Christianity (love your neighbour, respect your parents, do not lie, kill or steal...) they feel that past or presents high-profile adherents (whether self-proclaimed or otherwise) of Christianity have tainted the religion through their actions, and they do not want to be associated with these individuals. So, they may follow a basically 'Christian' morality, but you will never see them in Church or wearing a cross (and you probably won't consider them Christians).

Just something to think about - the world is often not as clear-cut as one might like it to be. — QuantumEleven | (talk) 08:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

As an atheist, I do not consider myself as 'rebelling' against christian values because I have never been a member of the christian church, and to rebel, one must first belong. I also object to christians appropriating the idea of being nice to people and claiming it as their exclusive teachings. Atheists are nice to people because they are nice people, and to be honest, I believe that most christians are nice to people because they are nice people and not because their god has told them to be nice. David | Talk 10:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. Much as parents sometimes tell naughty kids "Santa won't bring you any presents unless you behave", I believe religions are established to scare immoral citizens into behaving, out of fear that "God won't let you into heaven unless you behave". (The other main reason for religion, of course, is a way to give the leaders power over the masses.) To me, being nice only when you think you are being "watched" doesn't really count for much. StuRat 11:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

This whole question of "being nice" as an expression of one's religious values is the greatest furphy of all time. Was Jesus being "nice" when he upended the money lenders' tables and got stuck into them with a whip? Was Peter being "nice" when he cut off Malchus's ear in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18, 10-11)? Was Abraham being "nice" when he was prepared to cut his son's throat with a knife? Was the slaughter of thousands in the crusades, or jihad, "nice"? "Nice" is a middle class value that we've all been gulled into believing is terribly important when we're talking face to face, but please feel free to gossip and criticise people as soon as their back is turned. That double standard is commonly practised by members of all religions, and of none. JackofOz 12:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Christian moral code? What does this moral code entail exactly? Where does it leave the Taoists, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists? That's of course assuming that Muslim and Jewish moral codes are similar to the Christian one.

• Any moral code can be warped - the Christian crusaders and the Spanish inquisitors were very moral by Christian standards - for their time. The Christian moral code is flexible - not absolute. See Joseph Kony.
• There is no evidence that religious moral code is somehow better or superior to the moral code instilled in humans throughout childhood. Argue otherwise and you're saying i.e.. Japanese are less moral than Christians. Crime statistics favor the Japanese moral code in this regard. Celcius 10:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
• Also - Christians don't have a monopoly on certain moral values. "Don't kill people" and "Don't steal stuff" wasn't invented by Christians. Ok, "Don't eat shellfish" - I think you got that one but I'm quite certain that you'll find most of the "Christian" morals embedded in earlier societies and religions. I'll get us started and claim that the Roman law complex had laws which corresponded to at least some of the Christian "laws". So "Don't hurt people" and "Don't steal stuff" is in fact Roman morals. I'm certain pretty much most of what Jesus told you to do and not do is covered by some law or religion at some point - Christian morals are copyvio. Celcius 10:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Christian morals? Yeah right! At leats in Australia we don't claim to be Christian and then enforce the death penalty. And it has been my experience that Christians are the most judgemental, homophobic, exclusive group on the planet. I think that if Jesus really ever did exist, he would be turning in his grave if he knew how people behaved in his name. Northcoastbaby.

I love that delicious piece of circular irony, Northcoastbaby. According to Christian belief, he did turn in his grave, get up and leave, just as he said he would. Which us what makes him special, and why anyone cares about what he said or did, or what's been done in his name. JackofOz 14:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Location of Swords in 17th century British Estate

I'm trying to find out where dueling swords (such as a rapier), when not attached to a person, would have been kept in a typical 17th century English manor. Was there any tendency to keep them in certain places, in that regard? The Jade Knight 01:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Modern estates would likely have them displayed on the wall, but that's not likely back when the swords were still in use. I suspect dueling swords, in particular, would be kept in a case, to keep them dry, so they wouldn't rust. It might be a rather ornate case, with a felt lining, as opening the case and removing the swords would be part of the rather formal dueling ritual. A lock would also be likely, as the owner wouldn't want an angry servant getting at his weapons. StuRat 01:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. It makes sense to me, at least. I wonder what the historical fact is, however. The Jade Knight 09:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Look at Googlimages with those keywords "swords case" --DLL 20:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

2 pages of nothing relevant. The Jade Knight 20:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Oriah Moutain Dreamer

What is the legal name of Oriah Mountain Dreamer, the author of the poem, "The Invitation" ?

On her home page, there is no suggestion that's not her real (legal) name. Why would you think it isn't? --Halcatalyst 02:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It does say on one page I spotted what inspired her to change her name, but it doesn't say what it was previously. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

need assistance

I am doing a persuassive essay on the mdical use of marijuana. I have found plenty of things to back up its use but I am looking for at least one organization that works to fight its use (they are aganist the use). I also might want more information on why people are aganist it such as the side effects. If you dont have anything on this site maybe you can point me in the right directon. my e-mail is amandafloros (at) msn.com

thanks for your help! this is a great site I found a lot of information to back my essay up on this site and I have recommended it to others in my classes.

As to your second query (and quarry), Mike Pence, I think, has been one House member frequently to express objections to the use of medical marijuana. His most remarkable moment on the floor of the House apropos of med marijuana was his explanation that Americans shouldn't speak of med marijuana because--this is no joke--a group of girls in his district, upon finding that one of their number was seriously ill, gave her pot to smoke, thinking it a palliative; in the absence of emergency care, profound trauma befell the girl. The debate on a 1998 anti-medical marijuana resolution in the House of Representatives might offer some info as to arguments against medical marijuana (see also the Misplaced Pages article Medical cannabis and this Wiktionary article). Joe 06:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The arguments I most often hear are:

1) It's a gateway drug, leading to more serious drugs. There is a "cause and effect" problem here, however. It may well be that those with a tendency to use drugs will end up using serious drugs, but will first try milder drugs, like alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana; whether they are legal or not.

2) The "slippery slope" argument. This says that legalizing mild drugs will lead to legalizing serious drugs. This is a rather specious argument, however. Did the repeal of Prohibition lead to the legalization of other drugs ?

3) It can distract people from performing critical tasks. This is true, but so can alcohol and countless over-the-counter medications with the "don't drive or operate heavy machinery" warning, which is routinely ignored. Also note that "driving under the influence" laws could be used as they are, or modified where necessary, to include marijuana intoxication.

This is already happening. In Victoria, drivers can be randomly pulled over and subjected to tests not only for blood alcohol levels but also for being under the influence of a range of prohibited drugs including marijuana. These tests can also obviously apply following accidents. JackofOz 02:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

These are arguments against the general legalization of marijuana, but can also be used against medical marijuana.

StuRat 09:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Photo of Joe Carr

My name is Joe Carr and a photo of me is being displayed on a page about me and I do not wish that photo to be there. I have told the person who put it there that I do not want it there and he said it would be removed. Please remove it. I give permission on my website to use other pictures but not that one. Thanks, Joe

Hi Joe. Image:JoeCarr.jpg appears in the article Joe Carr, and it looks like the uploader thought you had given permission on your webpage for its use. Your fastest route is to show that you are who you claim to be and post a request at Misplaced Pages:Request_for_immediate_removal_of_copyright_violation. I've removed it from the article for the time being. moink 06:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, what is your objection to that photo ? StuRat 09:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I've uploaded a new version of the same photo. Under US fair use laws, it appears to be validly included in articles about him, as no free alternatives are known to exist. -- Zanimum 15:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Who does the picture belong to? or is it in the public domain? Are there places where a person can prohibit a photo of himself from being published (if he did not own the photo)? Not where I live. That's why some people cover their faces when they're being hauled off by the law and newspaper photographers are covering the event. --Halcatalyst 01:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

the commonwealth

If Australia becomes a republic will we still be able to compete in the Commonwealth Games? If not why, and if so why?

Yes, assuming the Republic of Australia remains a member of the Commonwealth (and I can see no reason why it wouldn't). Elizabeth II is head of state of only a minority of the members of the Commonwealth. David | Talk 10:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The majority (or at least a very large number) of Commonwealth countries are republics. A few which spring to mind are India, Pakistan, Singapore, Kenya, Uganda, Ghana, South Africa, Tanzania, Mozambique, Cameroun, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Malawi, and Gambia (there are quite a few more in Africa, but the list was long enough). Grutness...wha? 00:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II is the head of the Commonwealth, which contains 53 countries, both republics and monarchys. She is the head of the group. However, she is head of state for the commonwealth realms, which include australia, canada and the UK. Her role as head of state for the Commonwealth and Commonwealth Realms is merely symbolic and each of these states will have somebody similar to her to do official deeds. As long of a country stays within the commonwealth or commonwealth realms then officially they should be able to participate in the games even if they changed they way the country is run i.e monarchy/republic etc.

Commonwealth Games Countries

Why do Scotland and England compete individually in the Commonwealth Games when countries with states like Australia and Canada do not compete similarly, also if Scotland and England are not Commonwealth of Nations member countries as is the United Kingdom then how do they compete legally in the Commonwealth Games? Dale

--Dalecarr 10:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The divisions within the UK are more autonomous than the states in Australia. For example, Scotland has its own parliament. England and Scotland were also separate nations for centuries. StuRat 10:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Those examples don't really illustrate the difference, StuRat. All the Australian states have their own parliaments (as do all the Canadian provinces), and prior to 1901 they were all separate British colonies. Scotland was indeed once a separate kingdom, and Wales was a separate principality, and Northern Ireland was a part of the separate country of Ireland. At some point Wales was attached to England, to form the political entity "England and Wales", which I understand still exists. Nevertheless England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Guernsey, and Jersey all have separate teams in the Commonwealth Games. But at the Olympics they're all just one country, the United Kingdom. It's all very mysterious. JackofOz 12:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me clarify what I meant by Scotland having it's own parliament. If the UK had a parliament, and if England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, etc. all had their own subsidiary parliaments, then you would have a "federal system" much like in Canada, Australia, or the US. However, since England doesn't have a separate parliament, that's not the case. So, it's more like Scotland is a semi-autonomous region within the UK while England is not. Very confusing. StuRat 04:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What that means is that Scotland is less autonomous than the Australian states are, not more. The UK Parliament gave Scotland its parliament, and could take it away again (and probably will at some stage). But the Australian Parliament has no power over the existence or structure of any state parliament. That is entirely a matter for the constitution of the state in question (eg. Queensland abolished its own upper house in 1922). JackofOz 00:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the NT and the ACT have a similar level of autonomy to that of Scotland. Their Legislative Assemblies were set up under laws of the Federal Parliament (1978 and 1989). Those laws could be changed, in theory. JackofOz 08:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

For the Olympic Games, the teams that compete have to be those sent by national Olympic committees and as there is only the British Olympic Committee, there is no way that the Olympics would admit England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland separately. There is a long-running issue in Football (soccer) where there has never been a British or UK team and all international participation is by England, Scotland, Wales and NI separately: proposals for a British team have generally foundered because of a fear that it would be a precedent for insisting that the UK sides amalgamate for everything. I suspect the real reason for separate participation at the Commonwealth Games is that it helps the diversity of the winners to break the UK down to lower levels. Remember, the Crown Dependencies also compete separately at the Commonwealth Games. David | Talk 12:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Scotland and Wales are also somewhat fearful of (even symbolic) further English control, and forcing them to compete as part of the UK would likely meet with some resistance. The Jade Knight 17:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it was more to do with tradition, than real-world politics. And having four seperate orginasations (as they do in soccer f.x.) gives them four votes rather than one. Eivind 17:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What are these clothes

What are these people wearing? I've never seen them before. Susie Platterton

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548283256/2564430850078515824wUfXZb http://community.webshots.com/photo/548283256/2576632380078515824VIWhFt http://community.webshots.com/photo/548313534/2593464720086967025hIwAkL http://community.webshots.com/photo/548313534/2241418020086967025qKcBeW

Looks like black spandex zentais (featuring a facial mesh), fluorescent green ties, fluorescent pink gloves, white horned-rim plastic glasses, fluorescent necklaces, and either white headbands with pink flowers or while bowler hats. StuRat 17:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

These are stage performers. They perform on a black state lit with blacklights so the gloves, ties, and such glow brightly. Then, they dance around and the audience is impressed by the glowing clothing that appears to move by itself. --Kainaw 18:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Weird stuff, zentai. All of these people have facial mesh though, what fabric would that be? Susie

Look at zentai. It is normally nylon/spandex mesh, which is easy to see through. --Kainaw 19:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Plutarch's Moralia

In our article on the Moralia by Plutarch, we list 7 of 78 titles. It would be nice to have the full list. Does anyone have it, or find it online? dab (ᛏ) 15:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

ok, I just found it, in amazon's "look inside" ; help in transcribing is welcome. dab (ᛏ) 15:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What help do you need exactly? Maid Marion 15:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I've just seen the Moralia article - you mean you just want the Latin titles listed and translated into English? If so, happy to do it for you, just shout. Maid Marion 16:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

human family?

how many humans are there in this? theorically of course?--64.12.116.72 17:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In "this"? What do you mean by "this"? This room? Just me. This house? Two humans. This city? A few thousand. This state? About 4 million. This country? About 300 million. In the world? Over 6 billion. Theoretically though, just one. I'm the human. Everyone else is a figment of my imagination. --Kainaw 18:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

According to solipsism, there's only one person, you. Thuresson 19:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

But there are three personalities inside of me...what does solipsism say about that? No matter, I prefer solecisms in any case. :) Joe 20:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

42 - Adrian Pingstone 21:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but we are all ontologically alone, so the other 41 may as well not exist. JackofOz 22:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

We have an interesting article on Humans. I didn't know that besides our sub-species (Homo sapiens sapiens) there was also another branch of homo sapiens, Homo sapiens idaltu. I don't see any reference to it on our pages, but I recall hearing or reading something recently about the discovery of a third branch somewhere in Oceania. Can anybody confirm this? Back to the question, it used to be argued that the Neanderthals were a human species, but apparently that argument was put to rest and they are Homo neanderthalensis. So the answer appears to be that there are two, or maybe three, subspecies in the human family. --Halcatalyst 01:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Re the Oceania question, are you thinking of Homo floresiensis? JackofOz 02:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's the one, but I see it's only a homo cousin. Oh well, a descendant of homo erectus can't be all bad. --Halcatalyst 05:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

In a 'normal' nuclear family, I guess it's arround 4 or 5.--Cosmic girl 22:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Deals ...

Hey all hope you can help me with this. I was reading last week about the Americans buying Manhattan from the Dutch for beads. It got me thinking about other great deals that have taken place. Can anyone else think of any famous/unique/funny deals that have taken place in the last few hundred years? Thank you! Aidan

The Louisiana Purchase and Alaska purchase come to mind. The Jade Knight 17:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The recent deal in which NBC acquired Al Michaels from ABC in exchange for, inter al., the rights to Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, though not on the scale of the land deals referenced above, is rather amusing.Joe 18:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

See also

You can eat hockey players? --BluePlatypus 18:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Rugby players are edible. User:Zoe| 02:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Note that many uneven deals are agreed to under duress. For example, the French sold the Louisiana purchase because they sorely needed the cash for the Napoleanic wars and were, in any case, unable to defend that area from the Americans or, even worse, their enemies, the British (in Canada). StuRat 18:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Aiden, your history is rather mixed up. There were no "Americans" back then. It was the Dutch who bought Manhattan from the Natives. --Nelson Ricardo 20:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It's actually worse than that. Nearly every history textbook published since 1880 reports that the Dutch settlers bought Manhattan from the Canarsie Delawares for beads. In fact it was 60 guilders in trade goods, but it's not clear that it was beads , and it's not clear that Manhattan was the Delawares' to sell. - Nunh-huh 01:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

North Carolina public records

Template:PD-NCGov quotes a North Carolina statute which may or may not put public records in the public domain. Any informed opinions about this? The statute says that public records "are the property of the people" and are made available free of charge, which certainly sounds like public domain. This template was recently redirected to "no license". -- Curps 18:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like public domain to me. StuRat 18:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Stu. Joe 20:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Diagree. "Free of charge" does not mean "no copyright", which is what "public domain" means, in a copyright context. "Property of the people" could be interpreted as "public domain", but that's just one interpretation. You'd need a judge to tell you if that would be a correct one. (Any government property could be said to be "property of the people", which still doesn't give you license to do what you want with it) --BluePlatypus 23:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I was formerly an NC legal resident, and what it had meant was that all public records were public domain. They were "property of the people" in that no one could make them copyright, as the ownership resided with the people of the state. I.e. you couldn't take state census data, publish it with a shiny cover, and affix a copyright to it and sell it. That material was always public. That's how it was treated and how it was explained in the Introduction to Bibliography class in grad school (in NC). Geogre 03:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: This is now being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion#Template:PD-NCGov as well. -- Curps 04:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• From the searching I have done, I agree that the template is correct: property of the People=public domain. User:Zscout370 06:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Troll Question?

I am a troll question, please give me a serious answer-Imat 19:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

42 - Adrian Pingstone 21:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

No, sorry, wrong answer. The correct answer is 23. Ferkelparade π 22:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

If I answer the question correctly, do I get to cross the bridge? --Kainaw 23:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Only if you pay a toll. --Halcatalyst 01:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

No need to be gruff, Kainaw. --LarryMac 14:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

British people in India

I'm trying to get an idea of why there seems to be no significant minority of British Indians. Did all people of British ethnicity leave after Indian independence? I suspect that the answer is hidden somewhere in our many fine, detailed articles on the history of India, but my attention span is weak. The closest article I could find was Anglo-Indian, but it does not answer my questions. Actually, my best question is not really about the history itself, which I'm sure I could find through a web search, but about Misplaced Pages. Do we have an article or articles to which British people in India and British Indians could redirect? Thank you. Pissant 21:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, seems most did migrate. This article quotes a figure of 200,000 Anglo-Indians. Not a small number, but certainly enough to disappear among one billion. --BluePlatypus 22:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

They are two separate groups.

1. Anglo-Indians were the descendants of mixed marriages which were common in the early days but then mostly stopped happening. They often worked on the railways. Many still live in India, some went to Western Australia and other English-speaking countries.
2. British people living in India on the other hand were always a tiny minority. Less than 0.1% of the population. On independence only a minority "stayed on" - a higher proportion in Pakistan than in India. Jameswilson 23:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Those of us who live in the eastern states of Australia sometimes wonder whether Western Australia is an English-speaking place. On balance, it probably scrapes in. (Cheers to my sandgroper friends :) JackofOz 00:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

March 24

Water Problems

I live in a fourplex and my landlord has recently started landscaping the property. When I asked the contractor where are they going to get the water for the sprinklers, I was told that is was going to be hooked up to my unit. I contacted my landlord to question why do I have to pay for irrigation to a property I am only a tenant at? The responce I got was it is going to be hooked up to my water and the reason why I have to pay for it was because I live here. I do not know how legal this is, but I do know this much... I do not feel I should pay for watering a property I do not own.

Agreed. You would have a good legal case, unless there is some clause in your lease which says he can do that. However, you might find that the amount is so inconsequential as to not be worth fighting over, if it's only a few dollars a month. Depending on your water rates and the humidity and watering schedule, it could be quite a bit or hardly anything. StuRat 00:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr StuRat.. I agree with your thoughts, but there is no lease and the water rate here in South Florida is very high. At this time the sprinkler system has not completed yet, but I am going to keep a close eye on my water bill since I've been living here for over four years and I know what my usual amount would be.

I see. The relatively high humidity in South Florida will at least limit the amount of watering needed. StuRat 00:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You should consult a lawyer who does landlord-tenant law. In the mean time, keep records of everything. Keep your water bills and communicate with your landlord in writing, retaining a copy of each letter to present in court, if it comes to that. Brian G. Crawford, the so-called "Nancy Grace of AfD" 01:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

You should consider your relations with your landlord as well. If you actually go to court it's not for certain he will be very forthcoming to any future requests. However, if it is a large amount it is of course unacceptable. I would keep records and confront him with it if it is a substantial amount. If he does not comply wait untill the total sum is worth the hassle of court and go for it. Celcius 10:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey"

I just saw an anonymous contributor ask on the Bobby Goldsboro talk page if the song "Honey" was about a suicide. I always thought it was about his wife who died, but not necessarily someone who took her own life. Is there any definitive ruling one way or the other? All I know is...it's not a "romantic love song" like the article says. ;)

I'm also curious because it was one of my mother's favorites...it was #1 the month she first got married. Mike H. That's hot 05:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It's about the most sentimental song ever recorded, and it was part of a spate of "dead girlfriend/dead boyfriend" songs -- perhaps the apex of the trend. All we know from the lyric is that she's dead. One assumes that it's cancer or some other dreadful disease that would take a young wife. (Needless to say, "Johnny Angel," "Teen Angel," "Last Kiss," "Patches" (sort of), "Seasons in the Sun," and "DOA" are other "dead object of love" songs.) Geogre 18:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There are no more than two hints in the song for a would be suicide : "See the tree, how big it's grown " (if she hung herself) and "caught her cryin' needlessly" (was she depressive ?) I don't think it is the case ; thank you for mentioning it, the song is very nice. --DLL 19:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

John Gowen

Ok. So, after doing a lot of research nad looking at census records and old family documents, not to mention Misplaced Pages articles (Melungeon in particular), I have ascertained that I am a descendent of one John Gaeween/Gowen/Goyne/Guynes/Going/Goings/Goins (the list goes on). From what I understand, and what I have read, He was born in Angola somwhere around 1615 and imported to Virginia as a teenager, as a slave. In one or more documents, which I cannot seem to be able to find, I read that this man, John Gowen, was the first black man to be manumitted in North America (I assume this is meant to designate the non-Spanish parts of the new world...), the first Freeman in the English-speaking New World. I am curious to know if anyone has heard or read anything about this particular man, or any sources that I should look into?

--Dlayiga 05:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Note that "North America" usually also includes some formerly Spanish regions, including what is now Mexico, the Southwest US, Florida, and the Gulf coast of the US. Central America (most of which was Spanish) and the Caribbean (some of which was Spanish) are also sometimes included with North America. Of course, in the time frame you mentioned, the Spanish were quite brutal and unlikely to free any slaves. In English and Dutch colonies, I believe slavery was rare at that time, being far before it's peak was reached, with indentured service, for all races, being far more common. I'm not aware of their having been any slavery in French regions. StuRat 09:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I hope you realize that "Melungeon" is probably the most disputed subject in American genealogy. I notice our article doesn't even mention the recent DNA study which claimed Jewish descents for many early families. Rmhermen 16:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I know that Melungeons are disputed, I just meant in the sense that I used the article to help tie my Guynes family into the Goins family. I had other sources, however, non-Wiki--Dlayiga 23:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• What I've read (not that much) indicates that the Spanish treated their slaves far better than the nortamericanos did. I'd be wary of sweeping generalizations. We have an article, not very detailed, on Slavery in the Spanish New World colonies. --Halcatalyst 21:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

That may be more of a there is nobody left to complain situation. It wasn't until after most of the Indian slaves died/were killed off that the Spanish even needed African slaves. The majority of slaves imported to the Americas went to the Caribbean and South American colonies, where they died off at unbelievable rates. Rmhermen 00:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill would be the most logical spot to search, as they have meticulous and plentiful sources on the first European and imported settlers in America. Their center for American Studies and Southern Institutes would be good places to query. Goins is a common name in Virginia and North Carolina, and therefore it is likely that the impressing family would have been in the Piedmont region of present-day North Carolina or Virginia. Geogre 18:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This page includes a "history" of the John Gowens family but please take with a whole handful of salt as almost every one of its conclusions and even some of its facts are denied by other Melungeon researchers. This uses the "any mixed blood person is a Melungeon" theory which is very strongly denied by others. Rmhermen 00:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Innocent owner defense

Apparently, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on March 4, 1996 that there is no constitutional right to invoke the innocent owner defense against a civil forfeiture (Bennis v. Michigan, 116 S. Ct. 994, 58 CrL 2059 (U.S. March 4, 1996); "High Court: Constitution Doesn't Require Innocent Owner Defense," BNA Criminal Practice Manual, March 13, 1996, p. 116). Anyone know anything about this? - Ta bu shi da yu 05:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's just as your link suggests. I agree that it's a horrid decision (on par with the recent decision that anyone can be forced to sell their home simply so the government can make money), but do you have any specific question about it ? StuRat 12:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Pen pals

Does anyone know any good websites where i can have a christian pen pal without any costs or hazards.

Thanks you

As for safety, as with any web site, don't give out any personal information beyond your first name, and you should be perfectly safe. If, on the other hand, you give out all info including your address and where you keep your key hidden outside, you are taking a serious risk, whether it's a Christian website or not. StuRat 09:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish Brigade

Does anyone have any information about the 5,000 strong Jewish fighting force which fought in WW2 other than the article supplied in site...

The external links section of that page has a lot of links to useful sites. - Akamad 23:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Try doing a Google search on "Jewish Brigade". -- Mwalcoff 23:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher

What was the name of the woman who gave margaret thatcher such a hard time about the sinking of the belgrano on the phone in programme on the bbc?

According to this page, it was Diana Gould, of Cheltenham. --LarryMac 22:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

World's Largest TV Networks/Channels

According to Misplaced Pages:

"Rede Globo (Portuguese: Globe Network) is Brazil's biggest television network and the number one producer and provider of Portuguese language television programming in the world. It is also the third biggest TV channel in the world, watched by 80 million people daily."

What are the first and second biggest TV channels in the world (and I'm guessing it's commercial, not cable, TV networks that they're talking about)? I can't seem to find a list like that anywhere!

Thanks for any help you can provide!

I notice there isn't a source for that statement. :( It sounds impossible to prove- how do you measure the size of a TV channel? The most viewed channels are probably Chinese and Indian state TV, though you won't get accurate audience figures for those countries. Or do you measure by how many people can receive the channel, even if they never actually watch it? Henry 23:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This says #1 is CNN, but doesn't take into account viewership. -- Slumgum | yap | stalk | 01:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Now that site mentions 149 million households capable of viewing CNN. According to this site, China has 361 million households, with 90% national TV penetration. I'm not sure what 'national TV penetration means', but I'd be amazed if there are any households in China which a) watch TV but b) can't view the main state TV channels. Very puzzling. Henry 01:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, the title of the article is "Largest Worldwide TV Network," so I guess that rules out a national TV station. If you're right about China, then one of their stations might well get the most viewers. -- Slumgum | yap | stalk | 01:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, we had a few Brazilian editors who made trouble with innumerable "This is the best in Brazil" articles. We also got the usual run of amateur input. The consequence is that we have had very, very little review and fact checking of Brazil-related articles compared to US- and UK- and Australia-related articles. Therefore, the usual disclaimer that Misplaced Pages is not definitive should be amplified with regard to pop culture in non-English nations. (In other words, the article may well be incorrect or naive.) Geogre 03:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest, lack of sources is so damn common around here (in several medias) that most things are really unverifieable. I have several problems tracking things around here. ☢ Ҡi∊ff⌇↯ 06:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the place for it, but I have a sort of law about how much to trust an article. The more common the interest, the more likely the subject has many editors and therefore the more likely that it will be vandalized and the more likely it will be correct. The more esoteric the knowledge, the more likely it will be correct. In cases where the knowledge is popular but there is a barrier to accessing the interested population (Finnish pop culture; pop culture in Zambia), the more likely that it will be random. The democratic editing model is such that esoteric subjects invite specialists, while popular topics invite enthusiastic amateurs. Specialists usually can cite their information, but they tend to be at Misplaced Pages either as IP's or just temporarily. The pop culture folks tend to police themselves, so long as there is a sufficient population of editors. Geogre 14:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

March 25

Joe Carr - Part 2

Hello. My name is Joe Carr and I am writing to you for the second time in the last few days because there seems to be a misunderstanding about the nature and intent of an image of me which his appears on the homepage of my personal webspace http://www.lovinrevolution.org/Bio.htm If you visit that site, to the right of the page you will see a small logo of me with text that says JOE'S BIO & STATEMENT OF IDENTITY. If you click that link, you get to another page, where that small thumbnail appears in a much larger form. And if you visit the website http://en.wikipedia.org/ and type my name into the search box on the right of that page, you will also find that picture of me. The rights to that picture belong to me and I have not authorized that picture's use on wikipedia's website. I have a lawyer friend of mine about whether that picture is in the public domaine, and he says it is not. I would like you to please remove it from your website.

I would also like to mention that this will be the second time that picture has been posted without my permission. I have previously posted a message similar to this one (asking that that photo not appear on your website) in this help section (I am sorry I cannot remember where).After I did this the photo was taken down, but then new one was put back up. I then sent an email to info-en@wikimedia.org asking that it be removed again. I do not really understand why people seem to think I am important enough to warrant my own encyclopedia entry, but apparently some of my past poliltical actions have upset some people enough that they now feel compelled to never let the world forget me. I have received death threats in the past, and this is why I do not want my picture appearing on this website. This is a very serious matter. There is no reason for my picture to be on this website and I have not granted permission for that picture to be used. I trust that you will do your best to make sure this does not happen again.

Thank-you, Joe Carr Olympia, WA

This really doesn't belong here at the Humanities section of the Reference Desk. Have you posted this message on the discussion page of the article itself? That might help. The Jade Knight 02:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Joe. The place to complain is here. You'll find there an e-mail address to use where someone can actually help you out. This page is a reference desk manned by volunteers, not representatives of Misplaced Pages. Good luck. --Halcatalyst 03:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the pic from the article, but have no way to prevent others from putting it back. You might want to ask an admin to delete the original image and lock the article, to prevent anyone from putting it back. StuRat 03:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Your original post is here: . StuRat 03:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

If that's your rationale for wanting the picture removed, you might also want to prevent Google from indexing your personal website. Currently a search for "Joe Carr" gives your website as the 4th result (where there are other pictures of you) - the Misplaced Pages entry for you is the 47th result returned.--inks 04:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Joe, the most obvious thing to do is remove all pics from your website immediately. StuRat 04:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to try to maintain more than one identity, it's pretty much essential. Ask Valerie Plame. - Nunh-huh 04:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Someone is playing games with us here. The user who originally added that image to the page has admitted he is posting from User:192.211.25.9, the same IP address that was last used to post here by the person who is claiming to be Joe Carr, aka Joseph Smith of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). That same IP address has been trying to control ISM-related content in several Misplaced Pages articles using two different user accounts: User:TroiS6 and User:Jonathansword. It was TroiS6 who added the Joe Carr image to the article in the first place. I don't know what's going on and I don't care, but we shouldn't be taken in by it. If Joe Carr cared so much about hiding his appearance because of death threats, he wouldn't have several photographs of himself on his website. Having said that, I also don't care whether Misplaced Pages has a photograph of him on the article. SlimVirgin 04:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the many questions raised by Slim, FWIW, Zanimum concluded, upon reading "Joe's" initial post, that the use of the image was fair; in view of his formidable Misplaced Pages credentials, I don't imagine that anyone, absent compelling reason, should be inclined to disagree (this is not, I should say, argument from authority, but, instead, a recognition that, considering the sundry substantial responsibilities that the community writ large and the Foundation have invested in him, it is likely that his pronouncement is considered). Joe 06:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Freak Flag

Periodically I come across references to the word "Freak Flag", as in: "let your Freak Flag fly..." or in some 1960s song lyrics (f. ex. David Crosby)

Question: what exactly is a freak flag, and what does it look like?

Thanks, Peter Paller

I've always taken it as just an idiom as in the idea of presenting a banner or flag to make it obvious that you are not willing to go along with convention. I've never come upon any actual "freak flag" in any of my reading of the 60's counter culture which Crosby lived through. Dismas| 02:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a flag with a marijuana leaf on it ? The would seem to qualify. StuRat 03:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This page while it does not source the claim, claims it refers to a man letting his hair grow long. Maybe it could be any "flag" (sign or symbol) signifying hippiness: clothing or whatever. I wonder about the origin of the quote. Esquizombi 05:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The line from the song that the original poster mentions is from "Almost Cut my Hair" which was written, I believe, by David Crosby for Crosby, Stills & Nash. Dismas| 14:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

In the context of the "Almost Cut my Hair" song it clearly means that having long hair is an indication to others that the singer is a "freak", i.e. not of the "mainstream establishment". Whether long hair on males would today still count as a "freak flag" is questionable, as times and fashions change, but a better modern analog might be a mohawk, which would signal to most people that the wearer is a "freak" in the sense meant by Crosby, and would carry with it a series of negative and positive effects. --Fastfission 17:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

African ancestry

I don't know if I'm harping, but I have another question, somewhat related to my prior: What percentage of people who consider themselves "white" have African ancestry? I know that it is probabably a much smaller number than those "white" people who have Amerindian blood, but between the shameful hiding of ancestry and simple ignorance, I imagine it would be difficult to ascertain. I guess percentage is a wrong word, it might be too precise. I don't know if there is even an answer to this. I'm just curious.

--Dlayiga 02:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

If you accept the "Out of Africa" theory, everyone is of African ancestry to some degree :)--inks 03:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous question reminicent of Nazi ideas of "racial purity". If you look white then you are white. That is the only thing the term means in the modern sense. It does not mean "devoid of african ancestry" (as if such a thing were even possible to define). --BluePlatypus 14:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of people who look white (to me) who consider themselves black. Personally I consider a social definition of race to be more interesting and useful than one based on hue. Henry 15:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Total Participants in Korean War

How many total participants were there in hostilities during the Korean War? The article desperately needs figures on it. The article has strength figures-- total troops active at any one time. But all told, how many Americans, Chinese, S. Korean, and N. Koreans were actually "in" the Korean war?-Alecmconroy 05:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

biography of a musician

I remember reading an article in a magazine quite a while ago about a biography about a musician. This musician wrote music that broke a lot of rules and he created his own instruments. However, very little of his instruments survive and there are no recordings. He was a wanderer and died fairly young. I forgot to mention that he lived in the 20th century. Can anybody identify the composer's name? KeeganB

Adding a person with the same name as some one already listed in Misplaced Pages

hi

just wondered what the wikipedia protocol is for creating a page for a musuician who has the same name as another musician who has a listing in wikipedia already?

thanks

brian

Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation may prove helpful. The Jade Knight 09:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

yes very (i think!) thanks

Funny Laws

Does any one know any funny, usual or strange laws around the world?? for example: not sure which one, but one of the asian countries its illegal buying or chewing gum.

That country would be Singapore. They like it very clean there, and will inspect your stall after leaving a public bathroom. -- Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 12:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Now there's a job to covet: post-poo stall inspector. Henry 19:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Better to be the post-poo stall inspector than the post-poo stool inspector. Proto||type 14:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I wonder why they don't just install automatic flush toilets. And just in case someone gets the bright idea of stuffing the toilet, make the stall door unlockable until the toilet flushes correctly-- trapped with an overflowing toilet! :P --Uthbrian (talk) 06:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This example, from Australian tax law, is proof that the sinister forces we always suspected were at work, are legal:

For the purpose of making a declaration under this Subdivision, the Commissioner may:

a) treat a particular event that actually happened as not having happened; and

b) treat a particular event that did not actually happen as having happened and, if appropriate, treat the event as:

i) having happened at a particular time; and

ii) having involved particular action by a particular entity; and

c) treat a particular event that actually happened as:

i) having happened at a time different from the time it actually happened; or

ii) having involved particular action by a particular entity (whether or not the event actually involved any action by that entity).

JackofOz 14:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• Funnily enough, each of the last two US presidents (Clinton vis-à-vis Monica Lewinsky, Bush vis-à-vis Iraq) adopted that power. Joe 20:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed. JackofOz 14:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading that there was a club with a rule that was written into the charter, and could never be changed, which said "Absolutely no pets". Some time later, the attitude changed, and they passed an addendum "Henceforth, dogs shall be considered to be people". Some time after that, they passed another addendum "Henceforth, cats shall be considered to be dogs". :-) StuRat 02:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC) In Denver Colorado it is illegal to store any live stock on the second floor or above. Nigelthefish 20:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

fascislamism

Hello! I am Yong-Ju from South Korea. When I read one article of Time,weekly magazine, I found an unidentified word, fascislamism. I could not find its definiton although I have an abridged Oxford English Dictionary,2nd. Please, What does that mean? Is it relevant with the Facism or anything? Please, Help me!!!! Good bye, and Thank you for reading my question. Have a good time.

See Islamofascism

Seems like a portmanteau of "fascism" and "islamism". --BluePlatypus 14:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to be sure without the context, but it sounds so strange to me I think it must be a parody of neologisms like Islamofascism. Like muslimonazi. David Sneek 14:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC) P.S.: It's from an interview with BHL. Therefore it is probably just the result of confusion. David Sneek 14:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a more standard portmanteau IMO in that it joins the words at a shared letter, whereas the other adds an "o" which is in neither. Esquizombi 15:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It's done that way round so it follows the standard form. See cryptofascism, neofascism, etc. Proto||type 14:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

War Memorial dates of World War One

Embarrassingly, I work at a Tourist Information Centre and I've just been asked a question I couldn't answer. A member of the public asked why our local war memorial listed "European War 1914 - 1919" Now, from the World War One article I've found out that 1919 is carved as that is when the Treaty of Versaille was signed, but why does the memorial say "European War" and not "Great War"? I'm in North-East England. Henriksdal 14:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe they said it that way because it was only a European war until the last couple of years, when the US entered the war. StuRat 15:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It's hardly right to call it only a European war until the US joined in - there were land campaigns in German South West Africa, Tanganyika (German East Africa), West Africa (Togo and Cameroon), the southwest Pacific (German New Guinea and other places); naval battles and commerce raiding all over the place; Japan was a belligerent on the allied side from very early. -- Arwel (talk) 21:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

You might want to keep an index card with the critical dates:

Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand:       Jun 28, 1914
World War 1 begins:                        Aug ??, 1914
US enters the War:                         Apr  6, 1917
Armistice Day (cease fire):                Nov 11, 1918
Treaty of Versailles (official end):       Jun 28, 1919
Treaty of Lausanne (Turkish independence): Jul 24, 1923

The actual day in August, 1914 on which the war began is unclear, as the war slowly ramped up from colonial disputes to all-out war in Europe. 1923 is sometimes also used as the end of the war, as the war for Turkish independence blends directly into WW1. StuRat 17:05, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I would check to find out when the memorial was built (or specifically when that notation was carved) and try to determine the terminology that was in use at that time. --LarryMac 16:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys - some great stuff there for me to start on looking into it! Henriksdal 13:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

GB - House of Lords: Is SIR Bob Geldof a life peer?

I looked up the list of life peers and found that the life peers in the British House of Lords are all barons or baronesses. Titles like "SIR" given to Peter Ustinov, Peter Geldof or to Mick Jagger - are these life peerages,too? Is "Sir" is the way of addressing barons? Or is the rank "Sir" inferior to that of a baron and does not entitle its holder to sit in the British House of Lords? Thanks!

See the articles on Baron, Life peer, Peerage, and List of Life Peerages. Note that virtually no new hereditary peerages have been created in half a century (since the Labour Party came to power). The Jade Knight 18:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

"Sir" is the title of a knight or of a baronet. Bob Geldof may be referred to as "Bob Geldof KBE", but not as "Sir Bob Geldof", because he is not a citizen of the Commonwealth. Knighthoods and baronetcies are not peerages, but rather are honours. Sam Korn 18:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Life peers are called Lord not Sir. As Sam Korn says Bob Geldof is one of the relatively few foreigners (ie non-Commonwealth) with a knighthood. IIRC its only an honorary knighthood because of that. Jameswilson 00:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

"Relatively few"... well, there are quite a few. As pointed out, Bob is Bob Geldof KBE since he can't officially be called "Sir Bob" as it is an honorary knighthood (despite what British newspapers seem to think). But Americans given honorary knighthoods, and British people who take US citizenship, cannot even add the letters after their name (owing to some clause in the US constitution, ISTR). Thus it wasn't Sir Bob Hope or Sir Alistair Cooke. Quite a large number of prominent Americans (including a lot of Presidents) have received honorary knighthoods. And - to return to the original question - knighthoods aren't peerages, they are the next level down. Grutness...wha? 00:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The list is quite long; see List of honorary British knights.

The media have short memories. Whenever someone famous gets an honorary knighthood, the media tell us it won't be "Sir" whoever, and why not. But with Geldof alone, they always ignore their own preachings. I have taken this up with several news organisations, and their response has usually been à la "That's what he's most often called, so that makes it OK for us to call him that. We need to relate to our readers". They could at least meet us half way and call him "Sir" Bob Geldof - but that's too hard, apparently. A lot of readers don't know what quotes mean (or any punctuation at all).

Even if full knighthoods were awarded to foreigners, Americans are prevented by law from accepting foreign honours without the permission of the president. But there's nothing to prevent an American accepting an honorary award from a foreign government. Despite their honorary nature, honorary knighthoods carry with them the right to use the postnominal. The reason American honorary knights (and those from most other countries) don't use the KBE while in their home country is a question of custom, not law. In various foreign contexts they are appropriately referred to as, eg. "Mr Steven Spielberg KBE". JackofOz 05:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

There's absolutely no prohibition against Americans accepting foreign honors. What's prohibited is for employees of the federal government to accept such honors without permission of congress (and congress has delegated granting such permission, so it can occupy itself with other matters....). I think the queen once made a remark to someone who had gained British citizenship (after being made a knight as a foreigner) along the lines of "Oh, how nice, now you can use your 'sir'" - though I don't think that would necessarily be so unless the honorary knighthood were "upgraded".... - Nunh-huh 06:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Thanks. But permission is only rarely granted, isn't it? JackofOz 11:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

My impression is that it doesn't come up very often (largely because the British government knows the rules very well and offers honours mostly to those no longer in service to the federal government), but that it would almost certainly be approved if it did. The purpose of the prohibition is to prevent foreign influence in the conduct of government affairs, and an honorary knighthood isn't going to buy a congressman... - Nunh-huh 01:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I think the last "employee of the federal US government" to be so honoured was Colin Powell. Grutness...wha? 13:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The Esperanto flag.

How many people would recognise the Esperanto flag and what it means? (It's a green flag, with a white square in the upper-left corner and a green star inside that square). Is it a commonly recognised item?

I would say most people would not recognize the Esperanto flag, nor would they recognize most flags, for that matter. I don't. --Halcatalyst 21:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I would recognise most flags, but before I saw this, I'd never heard of a language having a flag. Definitely not a commonly recognised item. Slumgum | yap | stalk | 00:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I suspect you mean most national flags. There are thousands of flags for other organisations. Henry 00:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Quite a few languages have flags, but the Esperanto one is the best known of those. Even so it is not widely known. I'd have recognised it, but then again I'm a vexillologist :) (I could probably recognise 2-3,000 flags, but there are some 55,000 listed at Flags of the World alone.) Grutness...wha? 01:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did mean national flags. I'd assume that the mention of flags would, to most people, conjure up the idea of a national flag, or perhaps the regional flag as well - not a language flag. (There's an illustrated list here). I could probably identify 250-300 flags, which is possibly more than most people, but I wouldn't have known the Esperanto one. Slumgum | yap | stalk | 02:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Not many. Most people don't even know what Esperanto is. I know what it is (and have for quite many years), but didn't know there was a flag until just recently (running across the Esperanto article here). I still probably wouldn't recognize it if it wasn't fresh in-mind, it's kind of generic looking. I'd probably assume it was the flag of some islamic nation, since it's all green. --BluePlatypus 02:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I doubt many would. And I'd agree that very few would even know what Esperanto is. Though maybe everyone that I've never met is a vexillologist. (yes, I've been dying to use that word in a sentence for some time now).  :-) Dismas| 03:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the flag. But I would have thought Esperanto is widely known as some kind of language. If this is any guide, it regularly crops up on places like TV quiz shows and newspaper general knowledge quizzes. JackofOz 05:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Does English have a flag? What about other languages? —Keenan Pepper 06:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Lojban has a logo, but I don't know whether it counts as a flag or not. I doubt that the English language had a flag: it doesn't even have an academy or institute to guard it and publish official rules and dictionaries like other languages do. – b_jonas 15:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

For people who use computers, you often see a flag icon used to indicate your language preference -- Mac OS X seems to be using the Union Jack to represent UK English (or International English as some programs insist on calling it), and the Stars and Stripes to represent American English.

Example

I remember some program displaying a mixed flag, diagonally divided between both US and UK flags to represent the english language, but can't remember whether that was an OS or a website. Ojw 16:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd never seen or heard of this flag before. I did know about the green star as a symbol of Esperanto. Don't some people wear a green star as a lapel pin to indicate fluency in the language? JamesMLane t c 17:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

To answer B Jonas's question - most constructed languages have their own flag: Esperanto; Interlingua IALA; Ido; Volapük; Klingon; Lojban; Glosa; Bolak; Interlingua L.S.F.; Novial; Occidental/Interlingue; and Vikto all have or had flags (see and the links from it - also listed here are the other Esperanto flags). Grutness...wha? 06:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Could that be because constructed languages are intended as cross-national? --Halcatalyst 21:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Could well be - or more to the point a flag is a good rallying image for anyone on a specific mission to introduce a new "product" such as a constructed language. Grutness...wha? 00:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Interlingua IALA does not have a flag or official logo. The flags at FOTW are "conjectural". --Cam 04:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

plane crash

I was watching the National Geographic channel and a commercial for a show called Seconds to Disaster played. It was featuring a plane crash "caused by the loss of a 5 inch screw." It also said it crashed in to an urban area. I was wondering if anyone knew which plane crash it was talking about. I'm quite sure however it is not the plane that crashed in to the New York Neighborhood a couple years ago. I would appreciate any help. schyler 18:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Air France Flight 4590 was caused by damage from a loose metal strip on the runway, and crashed in an urban area, but not sure if that's the one you mean (not at an airshow). Ojw 20:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

National Geographic's site has a list of episodes. I'm not sure exactly which one it is, but the flight could have been British Midlands Flight 092, United Airlines flight 232, or EL Al Flight 1862. --Cadaeib 01:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I knew I'd seen it somewhere - this question on the science reference desk mentions an F-22 Raptor whose "engine was destroyed by ingesting a five-inch metal pin". Ojw 16:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it must be American Airlines Flight 587 and the famous "jack screw"... AnonMoos 21:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Drawings

What is the name of the old stylized Japanese line drawings that predate manga? They were always of samurai's and half naked women going to public baths. I think I heard they originated in shady taverns where no longer needed samurai's went to gamble and drink. Also, are their any famous artists of this art type?

Ukiyo-e? Shunga? A famous artist was Hokusai. Peter --195.93.60.129 21:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

A priori

Can I be skeptical about a priori knowledge somehow? or is that imposible and stupid.--Cosmic girl 20:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• The A priori article mentions Descartes' statement 'I think therefore I am' (Cogito ergo sum) as a possible example of a priori knowledge, but Nietzsche disagrees, so you are in good company -

'when I analyse the event expressed in the sentence 'I think,' I acquire a series of rash assertions which are difficult, perhaps impossible, to prove - for example, that it is I who think, that it has to be something at all which thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of an entity thought of as a cause, that an 'I' exists, finally that what is designated by 'thinking' has already been determined - that I know what thinking is.'(Beyond Good and Evil, section 16)

Are you skeptical about a particular piece of knowledge, or the possibility of any a priori knowledge? --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 20:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I dissagree too...I've found quite a lot of parallels between Nietzche and me...maybe I'm his reincarnation...lol!. I'm not skeptical about any particular a priori knowledge..it's more like something general...like existence...the natural numbers, logic... and I haven't got any satisfactory answer... I mean... of course those things are TRUE...I just want to know if they have been doubted by which philosophers besides Nietzsche and found to be unprovable meaning they can always be doubted...one a priori notion that I also 'doubt' is 'truth' itself...like, it can never prove itself from within i guess... It has to always be justified...I hope I didn't confuse you :S...but you seem pretty smart Squiddy!, cute username by the way! XD.--Cosmic girl 22:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

questions

who was the first pope?

Saint Peter, Pope Linus and Pope Leo I are sometimes said to have been the first pope. --195.93.60.129 20:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Unless someone's being extremely tendentious, the correct answer will be Saint Peter. - 00:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it's fair enough to distinguish "bishop of Rome" from "Pope" and to argue that the latter is a position that did not exist until some time after St. Peter. Geogre 03:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The question would be a very reasonable one from someone who knows nothing of the history of the papacy. The issue is explained here. But there is a permanent debate going on about it at Talk:Saint Peter and Talk:List of 10 longest-reigning popes. JackofOz 05:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

At least one Catholic scholar holds that the institution of bishops only developed gradually in the early church. The idea of a pope came even later. See Francis A. Sullivan, S.J., From Apostles to Bishops: The Development of the Episcopacy in the Early Church (New York: Newman, 2001). --Halcatalyst 01:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Himmler

Would Himmler have succeeded Hitler as leader of the Third Reich had he not betrayed the Führer and/or been found out? Would Himmler have been an effective leader? cassidy

Have a look at Himmler and see what you think. --Halcatalyst 21:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

At the time of Hitlers death, the third reich was about to colapse. Because of his distance from fuerer bunker he might have been logical successor to Hitler, he would be safe from imediate allied apprehension, so it is possible might have endorsed Himler as the leader. Ultimatly Hitler gave the chancilorship to Goebels, and the tilur presidency to Admiral Doentiz. As Hitler was close to Goebels he probally intended Goebels to be be the dictator, and Doenitz to serve as head of state. However Goebels took his own life this put Doentiz in a possition to negotiate the surrender of the Germans. The Germans would have been horedously badly served if a Nazi such as Goebels or Himmler took over as dictator. The war was lost, the Germans was to end the war as quickly possible. Doentiz because of his level head, lack of extreme Nazi ideology, relativly clear concious could do that. Indeed had Goebels or Himler been in charge they might have tried to keep the war going so to avoid their own culpability.

OK, fine, you've answered your own question. Why did you ask it in the first place? --Halcatalyst 01:30, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I was just curious as to the opinion of other people. I did not write the above reply. I study the Third Reich for my degree, I have Ian Kershaw, who wikipedia has an extensive page on, as my tutor. I am just finishing a dissertation on the subject of the end of the war and the relationship between Himmler and Hitler. In actuality it is not clear if Hitler did want Himmler to be his successor, even though he was perceived as the natural choice by almost all within the Reich. Certainly Donitz had no idea of the situation. Hitler expressed serious doubt over Himmlers abilities as a leader, for good reason, commenting to Goebbels that he lacked the 'divine spark'. Of course once Himmler's behind-the-scenes negotiations had been broadcast across the world the matter was decided. Thanks for the reply - wikipedia seems like a decent place. cassidy

Had Hitler died before the war turned south, he likely would have been succeeded by Gorring, and after him would have been Hess (except he flew himself to Scotland because he was nuts...). Captain Jackson 23:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

As has already been pointed out, the question is moot since there was practically no Third Reich left at Hitler's suicide. I just wanted to add that Himmler was appointed the leadership of Berlin's last defense, and proved himself woefully inadequate, as he had no military experience. He was sacked/resigned pretty quickly, though. Asav 19:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Celebrity Deathmatch

Hi! From which band is the music played during the end credits of Celebrity Deathmatch? Thanks in advance. Peter --195.93.60.129 20:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The soundtrack, with audio samples, can be found at . You can check those and see if any of them match the song you're looking for. Night Gyr 22:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

vietnamwar

what contries were the allies and who were the enemies in the vietnam war?

Perhaps you are asking which countries were allied with which other countries? See Vietnam War.--inks 21:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Very apt comment.

At first, I thought the real question was: Who were the "winners" and who were the "losers"? But then I realised they could only have meant: "Who was on our side and who was on the other side?". The answer to that question will depend on where the questioner is from. JackofOz 04:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Eve

The following comment was initially placed on Image_talk:Symbol question.png by a first time editor. I moved it here so it could be answered. → J@red  _ubx  21:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

While many of the comments are interesting all as well as mine are in true scientific terms theory. Even though many of the comments state that there were many peopel alive at the time of "Eve" this does not have to be the case does it\? It could be possible that there was only one woman at the time. I understand the bias against an understanding from the "scientific community" against this possibility but to state that it is impossible is subjective isn't it? Therefore to reject this possibility only promotes the agruement that science is biased. Would this not imply then that we are afraid of a view which challenges our theories? Isn't scient supposed to explore "all" possibilities. To neglect one would deny our right to call it science and then it would be religion wouldn't it? --144.137.131.242

Well, while I'd agree with a sentiment that "impossible" is too strong, could we settle on "extremely unlikely"? As a scientist, I would accept that in place of "impossible", and I don't think that doing so changes the MT Eve theory in any significant way. I suppose the use of fully restrictive terms like "impossible" should be limited to statements of logical contradictions - e.g. "It is impossible to have a square circle". However, I think that to suggest that use of the term "impossible" is indicative of a fear or prejudice against religion is mistaken - the word is used to convey a sense of extremes of improbability (i.e Where P approaches 0.000). Like saying it is "impossible" for pigs to fly.--inks 22:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

If there was only one woman and only one man (or very few men), you would expect to have a problem with a lack of genetic diversity. This does appear to have happened in the case of cheetahs, since they do have a lack of genetic diversity. See Genetic_bottleneck#Humans for an account of a similar event with humans. Unfortunately, this was some 70,000 years ago (far earlier than Biblical accounts) and there seemed to be several thousand individuals left at the time, not just a few. StuRat 01:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Just because something is possible does not mean it is plausible, and all ideas are not equally plausible. Just because something cannot be known with absolute certainty doesn't mean it can't be known with greater or smaller certainty. And that certainty can be known. Also, science does not in general work by assuming a conclusion and exploring for evidence for it. That is a classical method of pseudoscience, not the actual real science that generates real knowledge. Science starts with observation, then the building of a theory that generates predictions, which then lead to new observations. --BluePlatypus 02:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

There could have been only one woman alive at the time of Eve - as long as you accept that the Book of Genesis is at least partly fictional. If you accept Genesis 4:16-17 as fact then it is clear that Eve could not have been the only woman on earth (unless, that is, she was two-timing Adam with her own son). Even if 4:16-17 is false and Cain had no wife, there are serious genetic problems, since Seth would have had to produce children either with his mother or sister (and no sister is mentioned in Genesis). Whichever way you look at that, there were either serious genetic bottleneck-problems (and somewhat deranged interfamilial relationships) or there were other women at the time of Eve. And, of course, this is all without even mentioning Lilith... Grutness...wha? 05:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In other words, the things you'd have to accept for there to have been only one woman are not the things you'd like to have to accept given the ostensible moral code of the religion. There's plenty of other problems with assuming only Adam and Eve and their children, but that's a deeper biblical scholarship issue. - Taxman 16:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

March 26

Bridge laying tanks

Does in anyone know the name (and details) of the primary American Bridge layer tank in the '80s. --24.247.126.44 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Since the late 80s, we've used the M60A1 Armored Vehicle Launched Bridge (AVLB). Our article on it is a copyvio, but you can read the original at . I'm not sure what the predescessor was, and I haven't been able to find any information on it. Night Gyr 18:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I started a temp page with Marine Corp info. See M60A1 Armored Vehicle Launched Bridge (AVLB)/Temp. Rmhermen 02:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Total War Crimes in the Vietnam War

I've looked everywhere for the total number of war crimes by americans in the vietnam war, and i cannot find it...

You're unlikely to do so, since the definition of a war crime is not concrete. User:Zoe| 04:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

And aren't you interested in war crimes by other parties during the war ? StuRat 11:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

It's an impossible question, of course. A crime requires a law and a court. At the time of the Vietnam War, there was neither, except for laws and courts internal to each nation. Winter Soldier argued that there were multiple instances of war crimes by US soldiers, and both the South and North Vietnamese were known to have committed multiple war crimes by US legal standards. However, only Mai Lai got prosecuted. So that would leave a list of one warcrime committed by US forces as defined by US law, as documented by US forces, and as prosecuted by US non-military courts. Anything else is smoke and trollery. Geogre 14:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Freedom in Marriage,Sex, and Having Children

I have four questions to ask you about freedom in marriage,sex, and having children:

1.How much freedom to people nowadays usually hav in areas such as marriage,sex, and having children? Depends on where in world you go in the U.S. and Europe, with some exceptions people are free to engage in the forementioned activities. A consenting adult can marry any consenting adult of the opposite sex (and in some place of the same sex) regardless racial, religous or socio economic difference. Consenting adults are more or less free to engage in most sexual activities and can limit or not limit the number of children they have. Their are some limitations, many of these limitations are often on public health concerns and insuring that one person by exercising their right their not violating another individuals rights. Some of the limitations relate moral concerns. In a sexual or matrionial relationship both parties must be consenting adults. This of course is meant to preserve rights of a weaker party. Even among consenting adults their are limitations, specifically with marriage. Even among the most liberal societies homosexual marriage, inscest and polygamy. Espessally with the two latter the limitations are based legitament societal concerns, such as disease prevention, and the bring in the world of children who cannot be take car. Beastiality and incest also carry certain public concerns. Some societies are less free. China limits the number of children can have

2.Is it true that people nowadays usually have more freedom in those areas than in the past? In general yes.

3.If so, then why has the law allowed people to have more freedom in those areas nowadays?

4.If so, then is this the reason why marriage and the family are in the condition they are now in the modern society?(I mean, so many divorces,teenage pregnancies,sexual immorality,etc.)

5.If so, then how much freedom should people have and be allowed to have in these areas?(I think this is one of the big questions to do with marriage,sex, and having children nowadays, don't you think?) Media:User:Bowei

Looks like a school assignment. Try the article on marriage and/or ask your parents. Ouro 07:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I love when they have questions based on you picking a certain answer to the previous question. I've aced tests on topics I was completely unfamiliar with using this method. Or, altrnatively, you can answer NO to question 2, then, by definition, questions 3-5 are not applicable, LOL. StuRat 11:35, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Composer/arranger Clair W Johnson

I have lost my copy of Grove's and need to know any info that is available on Clair W Johnson. Does anyone know anything that might help?

Thanks! sveeb

A Google search on Clair W Johnson turned up 469 references. Try it and see if any of them have the information you're looking for. --Halcatalyst 01:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate to list band?

I notice that several bands, including some friends of mine in indie groups are included in Wiki pages. Is it appropriate to add info about my own band? We have 4 albums out and have been written up in Billboard, but I wanted to check before I just contributed.

thanks for any guidance, Craig The Taters email: info@thetaters.com web: www.theTaters.com

It sounds like you would be notable enough but it's probably not a great idea for you or your friends to do it since the article would probably be very one sided. See WP:MUSIC and WP:BIO for more info. Dismas| 19:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

japanese culture

I'd like to know more about the culture the japanese have in wearing white uniforms in the workplace either in japan, but mostly in a japanese owned facility in the United States. When did it start and why? I also need references for such. Thanks.

The Japanese are rather obsessed with cleanliness, and white uniforms show any dirt very effectively, making for a good check. Note that American gas stations in the 1950's also featured attendants in white uniforms. This is also why medical staff are given white uniforms to wear. StuRat 21:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

... among other reasons, see white coat. — QuantumEleven | (talk) 08:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course a white coat also conceals white dirt which is really the worst kind of dirt. Celcius 17:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

March 27

Ptolemies...

Can anyone think of historical and current uses of the name Ptolemy? People, things, descriptions (Ptolemaic), and so on? Any donations gratefully received at Ptolemy (disambiguation). I think I've covered most of the historical ones, but more contemporary uses of the name would be great. Thanks. Carcharoth 02:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

One of Harry Partch's instruments was called "the Ptolemy". It doesn't deserve its own article, but we could use an article about Harry Partch's instruments. —Keenan Pepper 05:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've added a section to the Harry Partch article. If it gets big enough, it can be spun out into its own article. There is stuff in the section I labelled biography that should be moved to the new instruments section, if anyone wants to do that. Carcharoth 14:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

there is a chap who turns up on TV now and again who rejoices in the name of Ptolemy Dean link. Makes one wonder about the mentality of the parents. Jameswilson 01:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

LOL! That's funny. I wonder if it is possible to find out which Ptolemy he was named after? I've been wondering whether people in general are more familiar with the Ptolemies that ruled Egpyt, or the Ptolemy who was an astronomer (among other things)? Carcharoth 02:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I also found an author called Ptolemy Tompkins... Carcharoth 02:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There's also the Ptolemaic system of astrological houses. - Nunh-huh 01:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Tetrabiblos currently redirects to Almagest. From reading Ptolemy I see that the former covered astrological stuff, while the latter covered astronomical stuff. Looks like that redirect is wrong. Anyone agree? Carcharoth 02:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I also noticed that problem. I have looked at both books and you are right, they are on different subjects. Plus, they are two separate books, making it like redirecting The Hobbit to Lord of the Rings. Someone needs to un-redirect. Maestlin 18:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

For the moment I have blanked the redirect page so it no longer redirects. I think there are two options for now: (1) Someone writes a stub article; (2) The page is deleted until someone can write an article (thus turning the blue links red). At the moment, what is in Ptolemy#Astrology is sufficient. Copying that into Tetrabiblos is another option, but rather redundant. I've copied the above three comments to the discussion page for Tetrabiblos. Carcharoth 22:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I am the chupacabra!?

fear me!?--Chupacabrads 03:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

No I don't think anyone does. AllanHainey 11:30, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

A Painting of Fate Sitting on a Bubble

I am looking for the title and artist of a painting that I saw a long time ago. It depicts several nude women in a garden, who I believe represent ideas like "happiness" or "loyalty" (but not those ideas specifically)and one of these women is "fate." Fate sits on a huge bubble in the picture, supposedly representing how she is fragile, etc. It is a renaissance-era painting. I'm sorry I have so few details! Thank you for your help, Sara

undergraduate essays by famous authors

I am curious to read undergraduate essays, or exam scripts, by famous authors. Does anybody know of printed or electronic source of such a resource?

Highly unlikely. Except for public performances (dissertation defenses), in most European and American schools, at least, student essays and the like are private. When the teacher has the student, he or she doesn't know the student is going to become Victor Hugo or Thomas Woolf. I have had two students who are now famous professional athletes, but their student papers were handed back to them with a grade, and I doubt either wanted to hang onto them and publish them later. On the other hand, public performances like dissertations and dissertation defenses are available, but they're not usually very interesting. The exception may be Kierkegaard's M.A. thesis, The Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates. This is because academic work is... well... academic and not creative. (T.S. Eliot's dissertation is supposed to be about, as well, and of moderate interest.) Otherwise, juvenalia is generally not available. Geogre 11:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm aware personally of at least one case, and anecdotally of two or three others, where a school has retained the early work of someone interesting - usually it's through a particular teacher suspecting the kid has promise, or seeing some unusual merit in the work, and filing the essays and so on on the off-chance. But this material is generally also kept private (at least until someone sells it!), more as a curiosity than as anything published for academic research. I suspect this may be more common with poets, but couldn't say. Shimgray | talk | 12:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Additionally most universities have very strict confidentiality policies in regards to the work of former students, often not granting access until decades after their deaths and even then not usually giving permission to reprint in full. Most famous authors are probably not interesting in sharing their very early work, either (though there are exceptions to this -- Bertrand Russel has excerpts from his gradeschool papers in his autobiography, lord knows why). Anyway, I think all of this adds up to it being unlikely that there has been any systematic compilation of such things, much less an online archive. --Fastfission 19:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Thomas Wolfe is a bit of a test case. His great novel was written about his time at UNC Chapel Hill, and so quite a few people got interested in what he wrote while he was there. No joy. First, the university wouldn't release even his transcript until decades and decades after his death, and all of the literary productions he did that were preserved went silently into a collection per his wishes. There's an author who draws attention to his juvenalia and yet who, perhaps because of when he died and how, did not end up with things shared, even though they were preserved. Geogre 21:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Allah

Can the omnipotent Allah send a prophet to humanity in the 21st Century? Ohanian 04:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If you accept His omnipotence, then of course the answer must be yes. This does not mean, however, that He will or would do so. The mere fact that something can happen doesn't mean that it will happen. Muhammad (PBUH) is still The Last Prophet in Islamic tradition, and will remain that way - possibly even if a new prophet were to arise. Most of the major splits in the church (Judaism to Christianity and to Islam) have been caused by the rise of a major new teacher of the Word. A new prophet would amost certainly bring a major schism in Islam. Grutness...wha? 06:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this prophet is among us: Jimbo Wales. Joe 07:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Revolution cometh Celcius 10:10, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

See Joseph Smith, Jr. for a modern prophet of enormous affect. Marskell 12:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

What was so enormous about Smith's externally displayed mood? (wink)JackofOz 14:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's quite certain that they'd remain that way. There already are a number of sects (like the Bahá'í) who've split off as new prophets have turned up. Those aren't usually considered Muslims. And Muslims aren't usually considered Christians, depsite acknowleding Jesus. Neither groups are considered Jews either, although they all agree on Moses, Abraham and friends. Mandaeans acknowledge John the Baptist, but not Jesus or Moses. At any time there's always a bunch of people claiming to be the successor to (insert favorite prophet here). So I don't quite agree with Grutness: In my opinion, a successful scism is more the result of politics than of the existance of a dissident prophet. Martin Luther was successful more because he had powerful friends, less because of his theology, if you compare to the failure of Jan Hus. --BluePlatypus 16:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

"Is there a truly fundamental alteration in theology?" I disagree with Grutness too. I think Muslims couldn't have a split over Mohamed without one party ceasing to be Muslim anymore than I can imagine Christians having a schism over Christ's existence without the deniers ceasing to be Christian. To be Muslim is in large part to acknowledge Mohamed as the final prophet. You don't schism over that; you leave the faith over that. But you may schism over (and I think I'm agreeing with Blue here) whether one Caliphate is to be obeyed, one follower is to be followed, etc. etc.

An interesting question has always occured to me, and is pertinent given the Joseph Smith example: are Mormons Christian? Yes, obviously in that they follow Christ. But no, insofar as Mormonism rather radically introduces a new prophet and interprets Christ through him... That's absolutely not an insult to Mormons BTW! What makes a "new religion"? Somebody post it on the Wiki ref desk? :) Marskell 22:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the simple answer would be that the LDS church considers itself Christian, and that most other Christian groups don't recognize it as such. A historical attempt to define "Christian" which is still highly regarded is the Nicene Creed. (The LDS's disagreement with it is one of the main reasons most others don't consider them Christian.) --BluePlatypus 16:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Old Theatre in Paris

I am looking for information about the Theatre De La CiGale in Paris, France. Its' history is what I am interested in. Information would be helpful. Also, any coins they used in the old days for a pass or fare. (Instead of tickets)

A Google search on your terms above turned up 151 references to théâtre de La Cigale, though they seemed to be mostly in French. If you don't read French, but you can specify what information you're looking for, somebody here might be able to help, though we can't do your research for you. --Halcatalyst 21:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Good advice. But here's some preliminary info. The théâtre de La Cigale is located in the Pigalle in Paris. The name translates to "Theatre of the Cicada (or grasshopper)". It was built in 1887, and has been a theatre, a cabaret, and since 1940 a movie theatre, specializing for a time (the 1970s) in Kung fu movies. It was renovated and reopened in 1987. It sounds like you are looking for historical information to use in writing. What time period were you interested in? If your specific question is, say, how many centimes admission might have been in 1890, you could try writing them at the address on the web-site cited, but I think it's a long-shot. - Nunh-huh 02:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hebrews and Phoenecians - Hamites or Semites?

Ok- from my modicum of familiarity with languages in general and Hebrew and Arabic in specific, my understanding of the Bible and other secular reading on the subject, I have never seen spelled out just what the deal is with languages and ethnicities in the Levant in ancient times. I am half Lebanese and have seen many place names which are pre-Arabic (Canaanite) in their vocabulary there (Kfar____), plus of course almost every town or village there was named before the Arab conquest. eg. Nabatiyeh, Sidon, Tyre, etc

Here's my confusion; as far as I understand... 1)The Phoenecians and pre-Israelite Canaanites were Hamites (Gen.10:15). Canaan was the son of Ham and in turn had these sons: Sidon, Heth, and the Jebusites, Amorites, and Girgashites.

2)But both the Phoenecian and Hebrew (being Canaanitic adopted by Abraham ?)languages are Semitic.

3)Where did the Semitic lang's in this area come from? Are there Hamitic words carried over into Canaanitic/Hebrew, and if not, why not? If so, what are some simple, common Hamitic words that survive? How are they attested to in other Hamitic Languages?

Thank You, Daoud F., Milwaukee, WI, USA(4.252.149.34 07:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC))

There is tradition, originated in the Bible, saying that people and nations come from three sons of Noah. There is convention nowadays to use a term like Semitic for some languages - cultures - &c. I am not sure that any concordance works ... --DLL 20:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Have you read Hamitic and Canaanite languages? According to the former, the idea of a Hamitic ethnic/linguistic group is essentially a myth. Henry 00:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Mona Lisa

I was just wondering does anyone know the actual price of the mona lisa or is it actually priceless?

In the (unlikely) event that the Louvre decided to sell it, it would go by auction, and the price couldn't be guessed in advance; however, it must have a nominal price for insurance purposes, although I don't know what that would be. I don't think many people would disagree if you called it 'priceless', though. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually it probably won't have a nominal price for insurance. I doubt very much if it is actually insured, most high profile works at major galleries aren't due to the valuation problems, cost involved & the fact that the gallery (if its big & fancy enough) generally feels its at low risk of fire, theft, etc. AllanHainey 11:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The issue of insurance came up when it was exhibited in the USA in the 1960s. I can't imagine the Louvre permitting it to be sent across the Atlantic without very clear agreements about monetary compensation in the event of damage or destruction. JackofOz 11:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The original question has been answered, accurately in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not insured while it is at the Louvre, since insurance is just one tool in risk management, and they probably feel the money is better spent on preventing theft, fire, etc. And it's not like the 100 million or whatever it would sell for could replace it, so there's not much point in insuring it for that. For moving, you're right it was probably insured, but if not, I agree there certainly was an agreement for compensation. Since it was for a relatively short time, and was likely profitable to exhibit it here, the insurance was probably feasible. - Taxman 16:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

As with most irreplacable items, it is not insured for replacement. It is insured for loss. For the Louvre, it will be insured for expected monetary loss due to reduced revenue and investigation costs. --Kainaw 18:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

glass slippers

could cinderella have really worn glass slippers ? if not or if yes, please write a scientific explanation

thank you

Cinderella is a fictional character in a fairy tale, so of course she couldn't really have done anything. In science we posit that fictional characters do not exist; this is widely accepted. Also, "glass slipper" is generally considered to be a translation error for "fur slipper", or a later poetic invention in retelling the tale. Notinasnaid 11:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This discusses the issue at some length. JackofOz 11:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

i have read that article. it proves that glass slippers is not a mistranslation for furslippers.

the main answer i want is , weather if cinderella ever existed, could she have been able to walk/dance/run with them...... or maybe it can be can anyone dance/run/walk with glass slippers without breaking them or damaing them etc..pls can i have scientific explanation /reasoning

Assuming the glass is unbreakable, it would probably be like wearing wooden shoes because both substances are unbending. Seems uncomfortable but people did. alteripse 12:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

can i have a better explanation pls ??--Pearline 12:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Glass is a very strong material. Glass is prone to shatter with a strong impact, but glass can readily be made that withstands likely impacts. It's used to make floors that many people can walk on. So there is no reason it couldn't be used to make footwear except possibly it may be uncomfortable or a little heavy. But not too heavy, and probably no more difficult to walk in than very high heels. A google search for "real glass slippers" suggests that people have indeed made them, and many people seek them for a fairytale wedding, but the details are tantalisingly brief. You'll need to make your own decisions about how you present this when you write up your homework. Notinasnaid 12:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

thank u for all ur help . i really appreciate it . i will not ask anymore questions on this cinderella's glass slippers issue.thank you for ur time spent to help me.

I daresay if it is possible to turn rags into a gown and a pumpkin into a carriage, then glass slippers that are comfortable are possible. Looking to science is not right for a fairy tale. Bippity Boppity Boo! Esquizombi 23:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Liability

If I were to have a store that sold devices that purpose were to cheat on exams what is my liability? My idea is a data communication pen that can transmit and recieve ABCDE silently. Would I break any laws assuming I called them something like "spy pens" or something that wasn't stating its true purpose.

In the US, you would have no liability whatsoever. Cheating on a test is not illegal in a legal context. If, however, you skipped over all the FCC regulations concerning electronic devices, you'd have a problem. — Lomn Talk 16:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not necessarily true. A professor's test is copyrighted. Receiving that copyrighted information and disseminating it again would run afoul of copyright laws. Generally, those who used the service would be the ones breaking all sorts of laws, but hosting copyrighted material can get you sued, especially if you set out to do so. In the case of Napster, they argued that their service was not intended primarily to house copyrighted material, that some people used it that way, but that such was not their intent. On the other hand, setting up specifically to grab test questions would probably be tough to explain any other way. Geogre 17:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

There also seems to be a (large) distinction in broadcasting a test question (which can be copyrighted) and broadcasting a suspected answer (which is the impression I get from the original question). Multiple-choice A-E would not, I think, be copyrightable. — Lomn Talk 19:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the copyright question would come up, anymore than taking notes and passing them around to others in class would be a copyright violation. Assuming you got into court, it would certainly be "fair use", and even if not, the professor would have no claim to a loss of funds in such an instance, substantially reducing any incentive. --Fastfission 19:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be hard to make up another use and claim that is what it is for. For example, rolling papers are for legal tobacco, not marijuana, right? Those 6-inch long vibrating things are muscle massagers, not sexual aids, right? Magazines showing kids in their underwear are product catalogs, not child porn, right? --Kainaw 17:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you took my test, you would be robbing me of my intellectual property. It's my metric for assessment in a class, and I not only cooked up the language, but I had a design, too. I may have cleverly asked about material from week 1, then week 6, then back to week 2, intentionally preventing list memorization from helping. There is absolutely copyright adherent to that. A list of answers, if it's just multiple choice, would be the answer key, and I'm not sure what applies there. However, any short answer or essay is another matter again. As for class notes, those are your property, as they represent your digest of what was said by me. If you tape my class, though, and try to pass that around, I can sue, again. (There are some companies and some profs who make small fortunes selling tapes of their lectures. ("Get an Ivy League education at home! Hear the Great Thinkers!")) As for a professor who uses only objective testing.... He or she is already a sitting duck. Geogre 21:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• If I took a set of professor's tests and tried to sell them as "My super-duper collection of practice tests," yes, I'd definitely be violating copyright. But simply passing around the answers in an ad hoc way -- whether by notes or magic pens -- is going to be well within the bounds of fair use, and in any case is not going to be looked at as a copyright problem for the developer of the magic pens. --Fastfission 21:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Complicated music

What is the most complex piece of piano music ever composed? Despite Liszts "Hungarian Rhapsodies". I would appreciate any suggestions. -Funper 20:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no way to answer this question. Many different people have different diffuculties. SOmebody may have trouble with rhythems, while other can't read a piece in the key of concert G. A beginner may feel Mary Had a Little Lamb is the most difficult piece ever. schyler 23:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, complexity is difficult to measure. "Most instructions per phrase" might be a metric, but that's not necessarily accurate. For example, Philip Glass's music is "simple" melodically, but it is rhythmically very difficult, and yet the number of instructions is minimal. On the other hand, some of John Cage's Music for a Prepared Piano is devillishly complex in the number of instructions, but these instructions are really directions for the replication of a particular artifact. At a certain point, complexity becomes an impediment to aesthetics as well as performance, and therefore the most complex music ever written probably isn't performed. Thus, it seems like you're asking for "a list of highly regulated musical pieces that yet are pleasing enough to be performed." You're probably on the right track with Listz, as it would come from the virtuoso age of the late Romantic movement, probably, but it could go as late as Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev or Ives. (It ain't Ed Cobb and The Standells or The Shaggs, I promise.) Geogre 00:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the sheet music for both Hungarian Rhapsodies and the piano duet arrangement of Holst's "Mars" from the Planets Suite. Liszt is easy. Grutness...wha? 00:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Both? He wrote 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies. I assume you meant "relatively easy" compared with the Holst - Liszt is never easy.
  • wrong meaning of "both". Let me rephrase: "I've seen the sheet music for both the piano duet arrangement of Holst's "Mars" from the Planets Suite and the Hungarian Rhapsodies..." And yes, only relatively easy. Another toughie would be a piano arrangement of Falla's Ritual Fire Dance, but - as with the Holst - that wasn't primarily written for piano. Grutness...wha? 13:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
• It used to be said that Scarbo from Ravel's "Gaspard de la Nuit" was the most difficult and complex piano piece ever written, but that's probably been superseded by Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum.
• The question was titled "complicated" music, but it actually asked about "complex" music. The two things are not the same. Some of Schumann's notation is needlessly complicated, but the inherent structure of his music is not particularly complex, compared with the likes of Scriabin or Godowsky. JackofOz 02:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Names in Faust

Title added. —Keenan Pepper 22:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

What are the two (2) fools specific, exact names in Faust? There are several retellings of the story, but somewhere along the line I believe that they have names. They were very important ot the story line, and I would like their names for a novel I am working on. Thank you.

Full text of Goethe's version from Project Gutenberg, if that's of any help to you. --Bth 11:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Whar specific scene are you thinking of? I would guess it's the one in Auerbach's cellar. There are several 'fools' there, though: Frosch, Brander, Siebel and Altmayer spring to mind. The inn is still there, so take a trip to Leipzig and do a bit of research there :) Best of luck! Asav 19:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What's it called? Not prohibitionism?

I was wondering if somebody remembered the political terms for the expression "anything not forbidden is allowed" and "anything not permitted is forbidden" in respect to law (the basic difference being that the executive can do whatever it pleases in the first case if there's no law against it and can't do anything unless it's explicitly told to in the second). I feel like there are terms for these two different approaches but I can't remember them at all. Any pointers? Thanks so much! sebmol 21:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you are in the USA but if you are that would probably fall under the ninth amendment. It protects the rights not speciffically enumerated in the BIll of RIghts. schyler 23:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the answer but I know of an example of a law that has changed from the first case to the second case. The Australian road rules on U-turns were changed a few years ago. Previously, a U-turn was permitted unless there was a "No U-Turn" sign. Now, U-turns are forbidden except where there's a "U-Turn Permitted" sign. JackofOz 02:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Googling around (and ignoring all the stuff about parsing input that just refers to the principles longhand), I see the first referred to as a Common Law (ie UK and related polities) concept and the second as a Napoleonic Code (Revolutionary France and related polities) concept, but, erm, not by people whose POV I trust. --Bth 11:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the concept of "everything if allowed unless prohibited by law" is a French revolutionary concept. See Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

5. Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.

Note that the Napoleonic Code establishes that law cannot prohibit things retroactively. It may be validly argued that judge-made law, as in traditional Common Law countries, amounts to establishing laws after the case (thus, allowing people to be convicted for things that were not strictly establish as crimes before the case occured), though this is largely an academic and provocative consideration... David.Monniaux 20:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Petrarch

Italian literature, originally a 1911 article, claims that Petrarch's political poems "are remarkable for their vigour of feeling, and also for showing that Petrarch had formed the idea of Italianita better even than Alighieri." My question - what is Italianita? (This might be better for the language desk, not sure.) zafiroblue05 | Talk 22:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Italianità- Italianness. Don't ask me to define Italianness. ;) Henry 22:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Another example of why all 1911 articles need professional attention and why pasting them into Misplaced Pages isn't very helpful. (Petrarch knows what Italianness is better than Dante? Uhhh. Well, since Italy is, for both of them, a collection of states and not a single one, and for both of them peninsular nationality is still a dream, that dream's ability to reflect what nationalists would later say was true is a dubious achievement and not well measured. Isn't it enough to say that they're fine political poems?) Geogre 22:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Petrarch & Dante Alighieri would think of the subject in a literary and cultural mood. The latter talked about the language of "Si" (now Italian), amongst other Latin-derived ones, "Oïl" (Northern France French) and "Oc" (Occitan), the three words meaning "yes" ; he was the first to publish in the vulgar (Italian). --DLL 20:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Tarikah Es-Soudan

While reading the book, "The miseducation of the Negro, by Carter G. Woodson, it metions, Tarikah Es-Soudan on page 19. I tried to look up the term for clarity, but could find nothing on the topic. Is there anyone who can tell me what is meant by this saying?

Possibly a Tariqah of the Sudan? What is the context? Esquizombi 22:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

There's also a book titled Tarikh es-Soudan (probably a different transliteration for the same phrase) Esquizombi 22:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Tarikh means "history", as in History of the Prophets and Kings (book). AnonMoos 21:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"From literature of the African was excluded altogether. He was not supposed to have expressed any thought worth knowing. The philosophy in the African Proverbs and in the rich folklore of that continent was ignored to give preference to that developed on distant shores of the Mediterranean. Most misionary teachers of the freedmen, like most men of our time, had never read the interesting books of travel in Africa, and had never heard of th tarikh Es-Soudan"

Is there an English version?

It seems there was a French translation by Octave Houdas & Edmond Benoist, not sure about English. There's a mention of the book here too The Negro, by W.E.B. Du Bois: VIII. African Culture where the title is translated as Epic of the Sudan. It's mentioned at African_Jew#Igbo_.28Ibo.29_Jews so maybe try posting on the talk page for that article for more info or look in the history and see who added it and post on their page. It's referred to there as a record, but I'm guessing that's in the broader sense of the word as a document. Esquizombi 23:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It looks like you can find an English translation in the Timbuktu and the Songhay Empire: Al-Sa'di's Ta'rikh Al-Sudan Down to 1613 and Other Contemporary Documents, edited by John Hunwick. (Amazon link). --Cam 04:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Divorced in Brazil

Is divorce in Brazil now legally allowed? When I lived in Brazil in the 1960s it was not. One might be able to get an annulment but other than that, legal divorce was not allowed.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

• Looks like divorce following three years legal separation was legalized in 1977 or so. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

People in Pakistan

I have been looking everywhere for this information and I couldn't find it. Does anyone know what children in Pakistan call their parents?

I would appreciate it if someone could answer this question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeghanN2 (talk • contribs)

The two dominant languages there are Urdu and English. In English, they use "mother" and "father". In Urdu, they use "Ammi" and "Baap". As with English usage of "mom", "ma", "pop", "dad", "pa", etc... I'm sure there are many other ways of saying mother and father in Urdu. --Kainaw 00:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Also Ummi and Abu I think. Esquizombi 03:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

My sources for the Urdu give abbaa for father and ammaa.N for mother (in ITRANS transliteration, I don't know the Urdu script). Baap is very informal and I have heard one wouldn't address one's father using that unless it was a particularly informal household. Also keep in mind there are many languages spoken in Pakistan besides Urdu, and what children would call their parents will sometimes vary based on the mother tongue spoken at home and the ethnic group. Panjabi's are likely to use the Panjabi word even if they speak Urdu in public. See our article on Pakistan and each of the articles for the languages spoken there. Then try looking for the words in each language, or asking Wikipedians that speak those languages. Unfortunately our Wiktionary articles on mother and father don't give the translations for any of the languages in Pakistan, though you could ask there for translations. - Taxman 15:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

March 28

Median Family Income

I am interested in the United States' epicenters of wealth. I would like to know if there is a subject on wikipedia where you can see a ranking of American cities' median family income, ranked highest and lowest.

I do know from doing other internet research that Scarsdale, New York has the highest median family income in the United States at over $200,000. I have found that you can go to the individual city pages and find median family income for a specific place, but I was wondering if there is a certain subject where these cities were ranked in order. Can you please help me?

"Per Capita income" is a subject on wikipedia, but you can only find these statistics listed on an international level, by country.

Thanks,

AUTiger789

Cant find a full list on here. Try searching google or the census site for "median household income". But bear in mind that comparisons can be misleading depending on how the local city/county boundaries are drawn. If a city is large in area rich and poor districts will be within the same city. In other cases the the wealthier outlying areas may be administratively separate from the inner city. It might be better to search by metropolitan areas, not cities, if you want to iron out those anomalies. Jameswilson 01:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC) yes

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the wealthiest county of at least 250,000 people in 2004 was Fairfax County, Virginia, with a median household income (not per-capita income) of $88,133. The wealthiest city of at least 250,000 people was, by far, San Jose, California at $71,765. (The poorest? Miami, Florida.) PDF file here.

And have you seen this page? No date, unfortunately -- Mwalcoff 04:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Total Rapes In Vietnam War

what is the total rapes in the vietnam war, can be an estiment..

Internalized Oppression?

Hi, I'm writing a psychoanalytical paper on a character from The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. I need help finding an article on anything having to do with social oppression, or anything that can explain how society or a community as a whole can be to blame for the upbringing of children in those communities. Basically, I need an article to support my thesis which is a little girl goes crazy because the town and everyone who believes she is crazy, therfore in the end she believes it to.

I would greatly appreciate anyone who can help me find an article about this.

--69.110.11.20 04:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Are the references in Social_psychology of any use?--inks 05:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Self fulfilling prophecy? Whether the link is blue or not, there has been a great deal of research on the power of self-fulfilling prophecies and the power of expectations of success or failure, and the social psychology research should be fairly plentiful. Geogre 12:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

many thanks for all the help.

Nazi Images

Would images taken by the Nazi government be subject copyright laws as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned? Captain Jackson 05:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC) Who would hold copy right?

Opinions differ. The government of Bavaria, for example, claims copyright on Mein Kampf (that, of course, started out as Hitler's copyright and not the Nazi government's). Realistically, Nazi government posters and documents have no copyrights that civilized people are obliged to honor, and not using them because of fear of copyright infringement is "copyright paranoia". - Nunh-huh 06:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to read a long discussion both ways on it, look at Template_talk:PD-Germany. There is nothing that makes the Nazi copyrights fall into public domain automatically, but just the same, as Nunh-huh has said, I'm not sure anybody has tried to enforce them. --Fastfission 21:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Given that the current (reunified) Germany seems to be considered the legal successor to Nazi Germany (for the sake of restitution payments, etc), it would seem to me that they probably own the copyrights on any government material from that period which is still copyrighted. I doubt very much they'd enforce those copyrights though, unless the material was used in ways they didn't like (read: for antisemitic purposes). --BluePlatypus 22:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

many thanks to the responses.

Reichsmarks

My history professor said that at the end of World War II, the Soviet Union demanded that Germany pay them 100,000,000 reichsmarks in reparations. How could these be worth anything if the government which issued them no longer existed? Captain Jackson 05:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the German Constitutional Court, Germany as an entity continued to exist following World War II (and has been in continued existence since the end of the Franco-Prussian War 1871). If the Soviet Union asked for reparations in Reichsmarks, it most likely also specified what exchange rate it was talking about. So, 100,000,000 Reichsmark could definitely be worth something even though there wasn't much in the way of a national currency between 1945 and 1948 (the year the Deutschmark was created). sebmol 05:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Antique war time brooch from Scotland?

I have acquired a (pewter?) brooch which is mostly circular, the outine being the image of a belt, and within the belt is a fire, and around the border in the belt is inscribed "Stand Fast". On the back of the brooch is nothing but "made in gt.britain". I should think it is a wartime brooch from the UK, sounds very Scots to me. I am eager to learn where it is from and can find nothing on the net so far...

http://www.clangrant-us.org/symbols.htm. Clan badges are worn all the time, and up to date, so there is no particular reason (from what you describe) to assume any particular war. I don't think it would be worn in to war, there would be regimental badges for that. Notinasnaid 12:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It does sound a lot like the clan badge of Clan Grant. They are quite common, and are still made today (often as souvenirs of Scotland). The value is unlikely to be much unless you can date it somehow - dating it might also help you find out more information about its history, of course. Grutness...wha? 13:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The Pro Life Alliance

Does anybody have any specific information on this group? Their website is not helpful.

I would like to know:

- names of certain members, I already have Dominica Roberts as current Leader - (is this correct?) and Julia Millington as Political Director. If any more are known I would be grateful.

- are there any famous supporters of this group?

- Any information on their history. All I know is they were formed in October 1996.

- Their succes in past elections, I have some information on his but only for 2004.

All other information would be gratefully appreciated.

Thank you

Natasha

Performer on the Ed Sullivan show

What is the name of the performer who had the act of spinning plates on the Ed Sullivan show?

• It's pretty amazing; it seems to be an act everybody is familiar with -- tons of references and metaphors abound -- but I've not been able to actually identify the spinner (or spinners). See plate spinning, by the way. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• His name seems to be Eric or Erich Brenn , , , . User:Zoe| 23:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Penal Law in UK

Hello, in Switzerland an in Germany, you have a so-called "Strafgesetzbuch", a law/code that includes all crimes and their punishment. Being curious I googled (and searched Misplaced Pages) for a UK equivalent, but was unable to find one. I got the impression that their exist rather different laws, but I'm unsure which was is a) valid at the moment (in Misplaced Pages Articles you find a lot of historic information) and b) where I find the most "usual" crimes, e.g. libel/murder/assault/theft and so on). Further on, where can these laws be found? In CH and DE, there are all law texts on the internet at the webpages of the government, I failed in looking for something similar again. Thanks a lot for your answer! --Mbimmler 16:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC) (de:User:Mbimmler)

• I believe that Switzerland and Germany are civil law systems, whereas the UK (generally) uses the common law system. As such, there is no single legal code. Shimgray | talk | 16:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. So as far as I understand it, in UK a judge which has to deal with assault would rather look at precedent cases than at (as in CH) a code which tells him "For assault the punishment is no less then 2 years of prison and not more then 10 years of prison"? --Mbimmler 16:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. For most crimes, there's some relevant legislation; in the case of assault, it's the Criminal Justice Act 1988, where s.39 tells us that "Common assault and battery shall be summary offences and a person guilty of either of them shall be liable to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to both." But what actually constitutes "common assault and battery" is likely to be controlled by precedent, rather than by a law; see, say, . Shimgray | talk | 18:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, come to think of it, the CPS guidance site is pretty much what you're looking for anyway... Shimgray | talk | 18:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• (I'm not a lawyer but I think the difference is this)

1. Precedents are to determine what is or isnt legal (when the law is unclear). In Shimgray's example, does "hitting someone with a lettuce" constitute common assault or not? Also precedents are binding for procedure (what evidence is admissible, etc). The judge has to follow what was decided when the same doubt occurred before.
2. But sentencing is a different thing. There the judge or magistrate has much more freedom. He doesnt need to follow previous cases. As Shimgray says, the law about common assault was last changed in 1988 and that text includes the maximum punishment - 6 months. Below that maximum, he would look at the sentencing guidelines, which are updated more frequently. But they are only guidelines, not rules. So the punishment given can vary widely, especially in Magistrates' Courts, which handle minor offences (max sentence one year). Criminal A might get a small fine, whilst identical criminal B gets sent to gaol. Jameswilson 23:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Astronomy

What sort of fields were most popular for amateur/professional astronomers to research in the 18th century?

Transit of Venus was huge. They were also very interested for the longest time in the longitude, which they attempted to divine by a lunar method. Amateurs and professionals alike worked at this. Then there was the continuing work on sun spots. They were also extremely interested in figuring out comets, especially after Halley. Geogre 21:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Though not entirely the same field, ISTR several astronomers were also involved in the attempts to create accurate clocks for use on board ship (which culminated in John Harrison's chronometer. Grutness...wha? 02:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference between a U.S. citizen and a national?

Dear Misplaced Pages,

Under the definition or meaning of the "REAL ID Act" it says under the section of "Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card" that the applicant has to provide "Documentation showing that the applicant is legally present in the US (in other words, is a US citizen or national, is an alien with permanent or temporary residence status or a valid visa, has applied for or been granted asylum, is a refugee, etc.)." It states, "is a US citizen or national", could you please answer what is the difference between a US citizen and a national? I have copied the info exactly from your definition of REAL ID Act below. I am new to Misplaced Pages and not sure how to get my answer back from you guys but would certainly appreciate an answer as soon as possible. Thank you in advance.

Sincerely, Richard Alan

REAL ID Act (Redirected from REAL ID Act of 2005) Jump to: navigation, search The REAL ID Act of 2005 is Division B of United States Public Law 109-13 (H.R. 1268).

Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card

Documentation showing that the applicant is legally present in the US (in other words, is a US citizen or national, is an alien with permanent or temporary residence status or a valid visa, has applied for or been granted asylum, is a refugee, etc.).

• Good questions! http://uscis.gov defines a "national" as "A person owing permanent allegiance to a state." What the heck does that mean? Ah, well, I did find another site explaining, "The term “national of the United States” designates a citizen of the United States or a native resident of a possession of the United States." But which possessions are these? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

  That would be anything in our {{United States}} (political divisions of the US) template.

• There is some discussion of a citizen and a national at our article on United States citizenship, esp. the part about nationals who are not citizens. --Fastfission 21:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Ah-ha. So, basically, it's only people from American Samoa and Swains Island. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Number of Canadians Living in the US?

Most recently a column in the globe&mail mentioned there were 2.9 Canadians living abroad. With approximately 1million Canadians living in California, does anyone know where to find data on how many Canadians are living in the USA? OR, simply the number of how many are living there in total? Dozens 19:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the 2000 U.S. census, there were 820,770 Canadian-born people living in the U.S., of whom 378,060 had become nationalized U.S. citizens. Only 141,181 Canadian-born people lived in California. Other states: Florida, 99,139; Michigan, 49,515; Mass., 40,247; N.Y., 54,876; Washington state, 47,568. These numbers are not exact counts but estimates based on sample data. -- Mwalcoff 23:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

iconic or classic lines in popular music

I'm working on a presentation about popular music, focusing on Bob Dylan. Part of it is that I want to give people a list of classic quotes from songs, and get people to try and guess which ones are by Dylan and which aren't. I can come up with enough iconic lines from Dylan (Desolation Row alone is fertile enough). But I can't possibly find enough gems from other people that are even half clever enough to be confused with Dylan at his best. Without a good supply of classics from other artists, the challenge of sorting Dylan from non-Dylan would be painfully simple. Can anyone help with lines from their favourite songwriters? I'm looking for lyrics that won't look second-rate compared to, say, "Dr Filth, he keeps his world/ Inside of a leather cup/ But all his sexless patients/They are trying to blow it up." (Desolation Row) or "I've been in jail, when all the mail showed./ A man can't give his address out to bad company." (Absolutely Sweet Marie). Sorry for going on about Dylan, but I'm levelling it as a challenge for all followers of other religions. The Mad Echidna 20:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's a few from two bands I've seen in the last year and one that I didn't: "Words that are spoke alone/Phrases you will never hear/Empty rooms and a telephone/That I will never use, never fear"; "You said the things you did in the past/Were all because you're living too fast/But now I'm here you're taking it slow/You know what you know you know you know now"; "Avalanche is sullen and too thin/She starves herself to rid herself of sin/And the kick is so divine when she sees bones beneath her skin". Notinasnaid 20:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Mouse and the Trapps and Leonard Cohen were both accused of being the "next Dylan." Also, for that matter, Stevie Forberg, with his "Jackrabbit Slim" record, was Dylanesque. If you want to really trip them, though, grab lines from Bruce Springsteen's "Greetings from Asbury Park." He was in major Dylan mode then, so, if the audience isn't familiar with Springsteen, they'll miss every time ("Blinded by the Light" is pure "Desolation Row"). Geogre 21:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm a huge fan of Robyn Hitchcock, who himself is a dedicated Dylan fan. Some of his less whimsical and more poetic lines are very Dylanesque (an example: I'll reach your lungs like smoke in the orchard, scattered in bushes, the firemen laughing, from "Cynthia Mask"). Also the 1980s Australian band The Church (best known for singles"Under the milky way" and "Unguarded moment") had a lot of Dylanesque lyrics (an example again: Anna comes and goes in shadows/paintings of the open windows/her photograph is always faded/her sister's eyes are blank and shaded/Don't you understand her science/Merging in a strange alliance to her? from "Sisters"). Grutness...wha? 02:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

For cleverness, Richard Thompson trumps Dylan. Indeed, his best stuff is too good to be mistaken for Dylan. <ducks> But pick the right lyric, and the two might be confused, e.g. You can be a gambler/Who never drew a hand/You can be a sailor/Who never left dry land/You can be Lord Jesus/All the world will understand ("Down Where the Drunkards Roll"); or I gave my youth to king and country/But what's my country done for me/but sentenced me to misery ("Al Bowlly's in Heaven"). --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 06:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Protests

Today and yesterday there were protests outside my school and other schools in the metroplex (I live in Bedford, Texas). The kids seem to be protesting some new immigration law. What exactly does this law include and why would the kids (mostly of latin american ancestory) be protesting it. schyler 00:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a bill sponsored by Senator Kyle of Arizona. It would, if passed and signed, make all presently illegal aliens into felons and make a felony any act of aiding the arrival of illegal aliens. The latter would, for example, make priest and ministers felons who leave water and food out in the deserts to try to prevent illegals from dying of exposure. Another bill, though not receiving the same chances as Kyle's, would construct a 700 mile long fence across the Mexican border. These two bills are causing significant protest by those who have descended from recent Latino immigrants, including a recreation, specifically, of the Los Angeles school walkouts. The Senate is debating immigration reform. There are less punitive bills as well -- one creating a guest worker status where aliens would need to go back to their nation of origin and register and then return and one creating a guest worker status for aliens presently here without their going home. Both of these are given less chance of passage than the harsh and punitive measures. The current President favors a guest worker status, but he has been very vague otherwise, and so the Republican Party is not getting led very powerfully away from the punitive measures, and this leads those representatives of border areas to answer to hyped up fears of "terrorists" and "illegals taking our jobs" by pushing solely for harsh laws. The protestors have every reason to try to remind senators that there are people involved, although it's likely that the areas seeing significant protests are already represented by a pro-guest worker representative, so the political calculus may not help. Geogre 02:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The most controversial part is, as Geogre noted, the part which would make those who aid illegal aliens into felons, which apparently also extends to giving medical aid. --Fastfission 03:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

removed due to parents seeing schyler 03:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Immigrant helpers encounter the same problem in France since law is getting harder. Near Calais (facing UK's coast), first a helping center was legally destroyed and people were sleeping in the street ; then helpers were arrested for giving clothes or shelter. Countries going towards barbary and giving lessons. --DLL 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

social Science

I just want to know whether Nikko(Japan) is part of the four main Islands if Japan.So can you please tell me where in the four main islands is Nikko located.Thank you for your help

We have an article on Nikko, Tochigi, which is located on Honshū, the mainland. Is this what you mean? See the article on Japan, and particularly that on Geography of Japan. --Halcatalyst 03:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"Die yuppie scum"

From where does the phrase "die yuppie scum" originate? --CrypticBacon 05:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it in the American Psycho movie (it's written (in blood, I think) by Patrick Bateman on a wall in Paul Allen's house), I haven't read the book, so I don't know it's in there too. Of course, there may be an earlier usage of the phrase, though the term yuppie existed for only 10 years before the book was written. --Aramգուտանգ 07:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info :-) --CrypticBacon 08:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

cinderella again

I daresay if it is possible to turn rags into a gown and a pumpkin into a carriage, then glass slippers that are comfortable are possible. Looking to science is not right for a fairy tale. Bippity Boppity Boo! Esquizombi 23:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

may i please know how a pumkin may be turned into a carridge ?

--203.124.2.16 11:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

You have to find a fairy who has become your godmother. (People forget that "fairy godmother" is from the land of fairy, which means that she can only be in the human world at certain times of the year and her magic would all be vegetative and that she has to have a trick in her magic.) The fairy will be good at changing vegetables into things and changing animals into other animals, but she'll have a catch to it, like only lasting until midnight (when she has to return to the land of fairy) or making you smell of pumpkin pie or something. Geogre 11:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

oh . k. thanks. so... on the whole i understand it is not possible.( i knew it in the beginning, just wanted to confirm)

thank you :)

population of Cape Breton—1910

What was the population of Cape Breton Island in 1910?

Thankyou

---74.12.2.246

Religous roots of Chinese occupation in Tibet

Seeing as Tibet is a strongly budhist state, and China has strong influences of philosophys such as Confucianism and Toaism, I would like to know what few events are most important in causeing the invasion of Tibet in 1949, in a religious context - Particularly religous causes for the conflisct. What caused the level of imperialism displayed by the Chinese? Why Tibet- it is not the only state considered to be a part of China by the Chinese government. Did religion play a significant, or even noticable role?

China's Ideolog then and now is communism. Their goal for invading tibet was to created a barrier between them and india, and to further advance communism. Since communism will not tolerate any opposing ideologies, once it invaded and occupied Tibet china began to suppress its religion of Buddism. Because Buddism is strong their, Buddism and its leaders have become a rallying point the tibet soverignty campaign.

Read Tibet. It isn't just that China said "Hey, let's beat up on those guys in the funny orange robes." --Kainaw 21:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Althusser's theory of ideology

Hey, I've a problem understanding the difference between the early Marxist/Feuerbachian theory of ideology and Althusser's theory as proposed in Ideology and Idealogical State Apparatuses. ie. this sentence:

"it is not their real conditions of existence, their real world, that 'men' 'represent to themselves' in ideology, but above all it is their relation to those conditions of existence which is represented to them there."

Well I kinda get it, in that Marx's ideology is once removed, while Althusser's ideology is twice removed... but I can't think of an example to illustrate the difference. Essentially that's what I'm asking for.

The portion of the text where Althusser makes the distinction can be found here. (It's on page 164)159.134.255.224 21:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

yes or no?

+that is the question--205.188.117.12 18:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)