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Misplaced Pages:Verifiability

Discussion moved to /WP:V RFC. Timestamp changed to future until the discussion is over. Alexandria (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• Well, this move was made just after I made a comment that I intended to be on ANI. I hope, at least, that those who are paying attention will continue to watch the new page. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Closing the RfC at WP:V (a preemptive request)

OK... we are now at 30 days (remember, October had 31 days)... we don't have to close yet, but we could close today if we want to. I could close it myself (as the initiator of the RfC), except that I have certainly been heavily involved (far more than Sarek was) and I don't want give anyone (on either side of the debate) grounds to object to the closure when it happens and cause more unneeded drama. Given the tensions and general bad faith that has permeated the discussion recently, I think we need the closer to be someone who not only is neutral, but also has the appearance of neutrality. That means someone who has not commented at all. So... I thought I would ask...who is going to close it? I would like to announce who it will be, so we don't get a drama fest of closures and unclosures and counter closures when it happens. Blueboar (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• Looks messy! 115.64.182.73 (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
• You need 3 closers to reach an agreed outcome to avoid further drama. Not me.. :-) Spartaz 07:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

  Valid idea... although I don't think anyone involved would insist on 3 closers. The point is, a) the closer(s) should be someone who has not yet commented, b) have the clout that comes with admin status so the decision (what ever it may be) is accepted, and c) we need to inform those who have commented who the closer(s) will be (along with a polite request that those involved not add to the drama by closing it themselves). So... could we get some volunteers please. Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

  I assume you didn't read ANI recently, as we have an ANI subpage devoted to this now. Over there at least 3 admins have volunteered to close it: User:HJ Mitchell, User:Newyorkbrad and User:Black Kite. I personally think a triumvirate closure, like recently on the China RFC is a good idea, but I will leave it to the admins in question to work this out amongst themselfs. I am curious where you got the idea that the an iniator of an RFC should close it? The iniator is by definition heavily involved, so that is always a bad idea. Yoenit (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Yoenit. That is all I needed to know (I too am happy to leave the rest up to the admins in question). I got the idea that an initiator could close from reading the instructions at WP:RFC. Perhaps I have misunderstood. Doesn't really matter since I was not planning on doing so in any case. Blueboar (talk) 15:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata

A colleague, Mkativerata, who is an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as defined by WP:ARBPIA, has today deleted variations of 2 sentences in an ARBPIA bio of Ilan Berman (3 times in half an hour). Claiming that they are "close paraphrases". The 2 sentences were edited three times to seek to address his claims, and additional refs added.

Whether or not he may have been correct initially, certainly by his most recent deletion IMHO there was no merit to his claim. I'm concerned with the aggressiveness of his deletions, without talkpage discussion, especially given the ARBPIA aspect of this. I've myself opened up discussion of the issue on the article's talkpage, but not received any response there.

Perhaps an admin can keep an eye on this matter? I'm concerned that it is spiraling. I'm not asking for any other action as to Mkat. Full disclosure: In the past I've communicated concern to this editor about his behavior, and have felt that he responded aggressively and sought to exact retribution inappropriately for my having having voiced my view, so I am hoping that this is not a continuation of that, and that I will not suffer from retribution from him. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche is the subject of a long-running CCI that has uncovered a long history of copyright violations. I'm working through the CCI and I'm not going to be distracted by obstructionism. Working on a CCI requires the deletion of substantive amounts of a contributor's work. And I'm not going to be bullied out of it. And nor am I going to let the fact that I have declared myself "not uninvolved" in respect of ARBPIA stop me from removing copyright violations, being a non-POV matter. CCI needs whatever help it can get. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

My noting that you are "an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict" as defined by WP:ARBPIA is simply a reflection of what you have yourself indicated. Given the sensitivities in that area, and your being an involved editor, when you delete material such as the above under the claim that it is a copyright violation, and the claim appears baseless, that raises a concern that your "involvement" is an issue.

I agree of course that copyright violations should be addressed. Your most recent deletion, certainly, was nothing of the sort. You also failed to discuss the matter on the talkpage, despite making 3 deletions in half an hour. When unwarranted deletions are made by involved editors, that can perhaps be a problem. Involved editors can always alert other editors when they believe there is a problem, especially if it is not a clear-cut matter--I find it hard to believe that you felt that your last deletion, for example, was a clear-cut copyright violation. I'm not asking that action be taken against you. I'm simply asking for more admin eyes, as I feel you reacted with aggressive retribution in the past. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

BTW, in the Mkat matter now before ARBCOM, there are assertions of failure to communicate properly as well. As here, I personally don't believe that the asserted failure warrants sanctions. But perhaps it reflects a pattern. I do believe that communication is called for by wp:admin, and is important, in instances such as this one.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. There is no suggestion being made that Mkati is using copyright policy to game the system, which would be a problem. This would also be a problem if Mkati were ignoring some discussion that had already taken place, but the petitioner doesn't suggest that is happening. According to the complaint itself there is nothing here requiring administrative action. causa sui (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. And I would extend that to blatant copyright violations. Mkat's most recent deletion was certainly nothing of the sort, however -- not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio.

As with involved editors in wp:admin, by analogy, "administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor ... and disputes on topics". As WP:ADMIN indicates, it is best practice in cases where an administrator may be seen to be involved to pass the matter to another administrator via the relevant noticeboards.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a stretch. Involvement is construed broadly so that we can discourage administrators from gaming the system to enforce their own positions in content disputes. According to your own account there isn't any reason to believe that that is what he is doing, and I don't understand you to be implying that either. If I'm reading you correctly, your argument is strictly procedural. Since it is a much bigger danger to include a copyvio than to remove a non-copyvio, it would be better to convince the interested parties that the edits aren't actually copyvios. Then we could move on. causa sui (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Not a stretch at all. WP:ADMIN clearly indicates the concern: "involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about." Such is the case here. Repeated deletions, at an article in the ARBPIA content area, by an admittedly involved sysop. No credible claim of copyvio. Zero talk page discussion, while making the deletions. That this is being done in the highly sensitive ARBPIA area heightens concern as to the approach. There's no need to throw around an accusation such as "gaming the system to enforce their own positions", however apt it might be. Hopefully, the eyes of admins on this will help us avoid future problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you get it. You violated copyright policies for years. Our policies now allow the "indiscriminate removal" of the information you added during that period. You are fortunate that I am not taking "indiscriminate removal" to the full extent to which it is allowed. Any editor can remove your information -- it has nothing to do with being an administrator, I am not acting as one, but even if I was, I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Indiscriminate removal should mean being fairly liberal in removing copyvios that are discovered from Epeefleche's edits, it does not mean removing information Epeefleche wrote just for the sake that he wrote it. That is disruptive. Silverseren 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it does mean that. Policy is that "If contributors have been shown to have a history of extensive copyright violation, it may be assumed without further evidence that all of their major contributions are copyright violations, and they may be removed indiscriminately. See Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations." --Moonriddengirl 18:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Basically, once things reach the point of a CCI, all contributions by an editor are to be assumed copyvio unless proven otherwise. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That seems like it could be very disruptive though, especially when you're considering articles that other users have likely worked on and expanded afterwards as well. Silverseren 21:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a matter of "assuming copyvios". We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules. And the material Mkat deleted here was by no means a copyvio. His assertion to the contrary notwithstanding. Mkat wasn't "assuming" anything. He looked at the language and the source and made a completely unfounded assertion, without tp discussion, in his COI area.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

In that case, uploading copyvios is what is disruptive. That subsequent editors then rework the copyrighted content (making the Wikimedia Foundation a distributor of an unlicensed derivative work) that then has to be removed is disruption caused by the person who uploaded the copyvio, not the person who removed it. A lot of thought has gone into this and the legal implications of unlicensed derivatives combined with the high ratio of (effort to detect copyvios:effort to add copyvios) make wholesale removal of legally dubious content a cost of doing business around here. causa sui (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The issue here, above, involved Mkat hiding behind the dubious assertion of copyvio. I doubt an objective editor would find this -- his most recent deletion -- to be a copyvio. When an editor deletes material under such a dubious claim of copyvio, that could easily be seen as disruptive if it is part of a problem. He also failed to use the talkpage for discussion -- or even respond to discussion opened on the talkpage. That is also not good practice where one is deleting material three times in an hour. This is compounded by the fact that this matter is in the ARBPIA area, where sensitivities are heightened. And, of course, it is further compounded where (as here) the sysop is without question an involved editor. I've no problem at all with real copyvios being struck. But that's not what was at issue here at all, as you can see if you look at the diff provided.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

My initial concern was prompted by the fact that Mkat: a) deleted material 3 times in half an hour; b) with a wholly dubious claim of copyvio (see his most recent deletion), c) failed to communicate via talkpage; d) in the sensitive ARBPIA area; e) where Mkat is an involved editor; f) without modeling best behavior as called for by wp:admin. I raised the issue here so others could keep an eye on this, and ensure that it does not inflate, as I've felt he has lashed out in the past when I've disagreed with him. I agree with Silver that Mkat's edits here were leaning towards the disruptive.

Mkat today appears to be reacting to my having disagreed with him, by seeking retribution. As background, when I first started at wikipedia -- many years ago -- I followed what I saw as wp practice; practice that was not in compliance with our rules. Not knowing our rules in this area, I did indeed make errors at that time, and years ago added some material that should properly be cited, revised, or redacted. I have years of editing since then, with tens of thousands of edits, and now that I have read our rules I've complied carefully with them.

But Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete in toto some articles I've worked on. Articles of Olympic athletes. As in this deletion of the Yves Dreyfus article today. And this deletion of the Vivian Joseph article today I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate ; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, this is what happens to serial copyright violators. I had to do it to User:Gavin.Collins. If it makes you feel any better, I'll do the next batch of content removal. If you could provide a list of all your copyright violations...but given the volume, I doubt you'd remember. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Elen -- as we discussed elsewhere, though it goes beyond what you were requesting above, I'm happy to and have now volunteered to look at old articles I created, and delete or fix copyvios where I see them. Hopefully that will not only help fix them up, but also allow us to focus us on the issues that prompted this AN/I.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a very transparent modus operandi: file an ANI report and then claim that any subsequent action is "retribution". Then canvas (for which you've been blocked before) your mates who tried to prevent a CCI being opened (, ) under the guise of being neutral (soliciting the uninvolved Yoenit as well ). --Mkativerata (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Ugh. causa sui (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Mkat -- you've not addressed the concerns I raised above about your recent deletions. Instead, you seem to be seeking to deflect the discussion. Weren't you an involved editor, deleting material multiple times, the last time (at least) clearly not a copyvio (though you claimed it was), who despite being an involved editor failed both to engage in talkpage discussion and to -- given your being an involved editors -- post the issue elsewhere so it could be addressed? Rather than seeking to engage in character assassination, over what happened years ago (and I don't have clear recollections as to edits from five years ago), and many tens of thousands of edits ago, when I did not know our rules -- let's focus on what you did the past two days. As to your accusation of canvassing -- are you serious? Take a look at wp:CANVASS -- that is an absurd and unwarranted accusation -- it does little for the conversation when editors make baseless assertions. That's not canvassing -- quite the opposite, it is what wp:CANVASS indicates is not canvassing. As to "M.O." -- let's be clear. You are the involved editor who under the baseless (certainly, as to the most recent edit) guise of copyvio deleted material in an area you are involved in, refused to use or respond on the talkpage. And now in retribution, immediately after I disagree with you at a wholly unrelated article, you delete in toto bios of Olympic athletes. I've no problem as I've indicated with copyvios being redacted. But the fact that your reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to do this is problematic -- surely, the entire articles are not copyvios, and surely, the fact that athlete x, from country y, won medal z in the Olympics of xxxx is not a copyvio ... yet you delete even that.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Mkativerata began working on your CCI in January 2011. It's pretty obvious looking at the history of the CCI that what brought him to the article in question was resuming work on your CCI. (<http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Epeefleche&action=history>) He had never touched that article before. It isn't wholly unrelated; it is in fact intrinsically linked to the copyright work -- midway down this section, and he had moved to the next article in that list before you ever disagreed at the other article. Given that Mkativerata's approach to the CCI now is the same as it was in January, it's hard to see this as retribution.

I have in one capacity or another worked on most or perhaps all of the CCIs we've completed. Your CCI has not had much progress yet, so you may not know, but blanking articles listed at CCI where any copying is found is common. This flags that concerns have been located. Reviewers are not expected to rewrite content, although of course they can. They've done a service simply by confirming the problem. Once the article is blanked, you have a week at minimum to work on it. (Anyone else may work on a rewrite, too.) If a rewrite that fixes the problem is not proposed, the article may be stubbed or deleted if the content added by the subject of the CCI is extensive. This is standard operating procedure for CCIs. --Moonriddengirl 14:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Moon -- I think its pretty obvious that, in this edit that kicked off this discussion, Mkat was not doing "CCI work", looking at old edits. But -- hiding behind an unsupportable and baseless assertion of "close paraphrasing", deleting material written that same day, that was nothing of the sort. Moon -- tell me honestly: Would you have deleted taht language under the assertion of close paraphrasing yourself? There have been attempts by some to ignore this issue. There have been attempts by some to ignore that he was doing this in a COI area, that he was making repeated reverts without any talkpage discussion whatsover (and not even responding to talkpage discussion), and that he was doing this in the sensitive ARBPIA area. It is perhaps telling that some editors who have commented here in his support have completely ignored these facts, and ignored how this diverges from the strictures of wp:admin as to how an admin should behave.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to answer this below, since in substance it ties into your last note. --Moonriddengirl 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Come-on people; let’s cease with wikislogans like If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. Even Misplaced Pages sometimes uses *real evidence* here at ANIs. “Close paraphrases” are not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination nor do they constitute plagiarism if it they are merely a “close paraphrase”; the litmus test is stricter than that. Anyone who editwars under such pretense has no leg to stand on. Given that Mkativerata is an involved editor, he must abide by the 3RR and edit warring restrictions everyone else are expected to abide by.

  I note Mkativerata’s fine posturing like how he won’t be “distracted by obstructionism,” but there are only so many ways short pithy English-langauge sentences that are grammatically correct can be constructed. The proper test for whether close paraphrasing must also be accompanied by an in-line citation is paraphrasing very closely. It is irrelevant whether a collaboration between Zeus and Oprah “uncovered a long history of copyright violations” and this caused Mkativerata to role his eyes *extra-extra* far into his forehead, nor does it matter if these two editors hate each others guts, nor does it matter if Mkativerata postures with Great Determination®™© and speaks of overcoming obstructionism; the only relevant issue here in this ANI is whether Mkativerata’s serial reverting has a proper foundation. And that means the basis must pass the “Reasonable Man” test: Let’s see hard evidence one way or another as to whether the deleted text is a paraphrasing “very closely” and is deserving of having an in-line citation.

  It might also be interesting to see if we have an 800-pound gorilla in the room no one is talking about. Is this about a pro-Israeli editor and an anti-Israeli editor bashing each other, trying to make substantial changes to the message point of the articles, and are trying to justify their actions by hiding behind the apron strings of misapplied policies? Who is *really* doing what, and why? Is there *really* “very close” paraphrasing? If that’s the case (and I see no evidence yet that it is) are Mkativerata’s remedies (wholesale deletion of text along with accompanying citations) best serving the project(?) or is are his edits just POV-pushing under a pretense that can’t be buttressed with real evidence? Greg L (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

A close paraphrase of a copyrighted work is indeed a copyright violation as an unauthorized derivative work. T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Can be, but not always. Paraphrasing a single sentence is out of a long article is generally fair use and thus not a copyright violation. A cited statement that is reworded from a single sentence of a source is, AFAIK, generally acceptable in any setting as long as it is cited. Academics do this all the time (summarizing someone's work by using a close paraphrase of a sentence or two of an abstract is extremely common). Hobit (talk) 00:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The blanking Epeefleche describes is typical procedure in copyvio situations, and you need merely to look in the history to find what has been blanked. As to what has been covered over, let's take the Vivian Joseph article. The major source says:

They finished in fourth place, but in 1966, the silver medal-winning German team of Hans-Jurgen Baumler and Marika Kilius were stripped of their medals after they were alleged to have signed a professional contract prior to the 1964 Olympics. The Josephs were then moved to third place and awarded bronze medals. In 1987, however, the German duo was officially reinstated by the IOC and the original results were restored; the Josephs, who had held the bronze for over 20 years, were moved back to fourth place and the USOC does not officially recognize them as medalists.

This is what Epeefleche placed in the article

They finished in 4th place. But in 1966 the silver medal-winning team of Hans-Jurgen Baumler and Marika Kilius of Germany were stripped of their medals, after they were alleged to have signed a professional contract prior to the 1964 Olympics. The Josephs were then moved up to 3rd place, and awarded bronze medals. In 1987, however, the Germans were officially reinstated by the IOC, and the original results were restored. The Josephs, who had held the bronze medal for over 20 years, were moved back to 4th place. The USOC does not recognize them as medalists.

The rest of the Joseph article contains similar copy-and-paste-with-a-few-words-changed blatant copyright violations and its blanking was both utterly necessary and required. If Epeefleche does not want this to happen, then the best course of action would be to actually work with the CCI to correct the problems that s/he admits exists, before they get blanked. A much more productive course of action. --Slp1 (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

As I said above, "I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of. BTW -- can you tell us what date that edit was added? Also, Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete completely some articles I've worked on on Olympic athletes. It stretches the assumption of good faith past the breaking point to think that the timing of his deletions is not accidental, but rather direct retribution. And it is hard to believe that there is not material capable of saving--without any risk of copvio whatsoever--along the lines of "Joe T is an American boxer who won a gold glove in boxing as a heavyweight at the 1976 Summer Olympics".--Epeefleche (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll try again. Mkativerata has deleted nothing. He has blanked an obvious copyright problem, and the complete history, including when you added the information is still in the history. Mkativerata has posted it on the WP:CP board where other editors and administrators will, in 5-7 days, process the listing, checking Mkativerata's claim of copyvio and acting upon it or not as they find appropriate. At any point, you could rewrite the articles to avoid deletion or stubbing. This was explained to you by Moonriddengirl in January, and it is clearly written clearly on the page blanking the articles. Please stop these disruptive claims of "retribution". You added massive copyright violations, and have done nothing to participate in the clean up. Somebody else obviously has to do it for you, and you don't get to obstruct the process by attacking the cleaners. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

• Very good. Thank you for providing the much-needed, hard evidence, Slp1. Indeed, that is not merely the “close paraphrase” that Mkativerata cited for his deletions but passes the “reasonable man” test for being what plagiarism states as requiring an in-line citation (very close paraphrasing). So why doesn’t someone (Epeefleche?) just add in-line citations to the paragraph? This seems to be an edit dispute where the content and thrust of the article is being changed by the deletion. If Epeefleche objects to that, why not add a citation? Greg L (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You appear to have a very serious misunderstanding of copyright issues. In-line citations will not solve this issue in any way. This is neither close paraphrasing nor plagiarism. It is a very clear cut copyright infringement. May I suggest that you read WP's policies on this matter? WP:COPYVIO.--Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

What I actually understand and what you think I understand are two different things. I’m done with you today, too. Adios. Greg L (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Plagiarism is pretty clear that adding an in-line citation to closely paraphrased content taken from non-free sources is not a solution; of "works under copyright that are not available under a compatible free license", it says "They cannot be closely paraphrased for copyright concerns, but must be substantially rewritten in original language." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

But ... the edit that Mkat most recently deleted, under the dubious guise of copyvio, wasn't copyvio at all. The fact that he failed to engage in talkpage discussion, and did it in a sensitive area in which he has a conflict of interest, merely compounds the matter -- if there were even a gray area of concern as to copyvio, and for some reason he was opposed to talk page discussion, he could simply have posted his concern on the appropriate noticeboard so that an uninvolved editor could address it. But the main point is -- Mkat seems to be asserting copyvio where there is none, in an area where he has a conflict of interest.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

It is your opinion, not an objective truth, that there were not copyright problems with that revision. Your judgement on copyright matters have to be taken with a pinch of salt, frankly, given your history. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The above-indicated diff speaks for itself. Anyone can read it. One needn't rely on anyone else's opinion. And it is an objective fact that he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area -- he admits as much himself.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If Greg L thinks close paraphrasing is "not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination" and indisputably not plagiarism then Greg L's opinion on this matter is to be actively mistrusted. In fact, given the precedent of long-standing editors turning up at ANI and making such statements, it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

If you can’t understand what others write, then you ought not spout off as you just did Thumperward. I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

An ad hominem response to a serious copyright situation is not helpful. Actively suspicious, in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Now you are just trying to bait me. Try looking in the mirror next time when it comes to ad hominem responses. You started it with your “actively mistrusted” bit and then jump up and down and cry foul when someone gives you a dose of your own medicine. Then you further tried to bait me by writing it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems, which is straight out of 6th grade. How the hell old are you?? Stop acting childish and attacking others and try reading what they actually write before spouting off with something half-baked; the operative point in my above point was the adjective “very”; that point was obviously lost on you. I’m done responding to you today since I’ve got your number now, fella, and it’s obvious you enjoy personal attacks and baiting (I’d sorta bother with an ANI of my own for that hogwash, but that would be lowering myself to your level). Why not find another venue at which you can be an ornery, miserable cuss? There is ample electronic white space to get the last word. Happy editing and goodbye. Greg L (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I've little interest in being drawn into some interminable flame war, especially not with you. My comments were directed at that wider part of the community whose concern with copyright both in the hard legal sense of "we are liable to be sued here" and in the broader sense of "Misplaced Pages is best avoiding a reputation for a lax attitude to potential copyright issues". Your comment in defense of presented diffs showing at least the latter was troublesome. My experience in this area on WP strongly indicates that editors who make statements defending such things are more likely than average to have made such considerations regarding their own edits in the past. Your response to this was "I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here", which as a rebuttal is seriously lacking. Forgive me for also not taking you at your word that you're disinterested in having the last word here when my current edit conflict indicates you spent at least five minutes editing this response in order to add the "ornery, miserable cuss" comment, a readaibly blockable personal attack only overlooked because there are bigger issues here (serious allegations of copyvio). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Didn't we just topic ban someone for refusing to work on their own CCI? Why isn't the same thing done here, especially since this CCI has now been around for about a year and Epeefleche has yet to help clean up the mess he created? T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Support. It seems more appropriate to ban someone who still hasn't helped after a year, rather than ban someone who's CCI has just opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

For the record, here are the two sentences in question (AFICT)

Source

In the new book "Tehran Rising," author Ilan Berman notes that the U.S. war on terrorism has inadvertently removed two of the major brakes on Iranian power in the region: Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in Iraq and the Islamist Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan.

Misplaced Pages

He wrote in his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States that in displacing Saddam Hussein, in Iraq, and the Taliban, in Afghanistan, the United States had unintentionally taken away two significant checks on the power of Iran in the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=edit&section=36

I think that the "inadvertently" is arguable a WP:OR problem (though common sense probably applies). I think that there are only so many ways to communicate the idea of the sentence and this one would seem reasonable to me. But others, more versed in copyright issues, should probably comment. Hobit (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Even if you think that this version is adequate, it is worth noting what Mkativerata first removed as a paraphrase.

What mkativerata removed

In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman noted that the U.S. had inadvertently removed two major brakes on Iranian regional power: Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan

which is much, much too close to the original source. Epeefleche made incremental changes all of which which Mkativerata stated, I think legitimately, remained too close to the source, before arriving at this current. --Slp1 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Does making incremental changes to a copyvio until the wording is sufficiently different from the original make it no longer a derivative? INAL but my sources say "no". causa sui (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I certainly hope so. Otherwise we should just delete, rather than fix, any detected copyright violations. Plus, a quote that short in a non-profit (yes it matters) is almost certainly fair use so the issue is fairly moot. I personally think the first version is highly problematic, the last was fine and shouldn't have been deleted. Hobit (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry you don't overcome close paraphrasing with a thesaurus. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, I don't have anything better. Could you provide a way to say that same thing without being a close paraphrase? Or is it the attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem? (Sorry that sentence sucked, did I mention I don't write well?) Hobit (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

If an editor lacks the skills to do it (and I don't mean that perjoratively), in-text attribution is a safe way around the problem. And does the sentence need to be in the article in the first place? If the sentence derives from one sentence in one source, it's probably not important. So yes, it can be the very attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem --Mkativerata (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe I understand your points, but I will disagree. There are times that a single sentence can and should be paraphrased from a source. Ignoring if this is such a case, I think that the (final) paraphrasing used is about as far from the source as it could be while still making the same point. Would "In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman claims that by displacing Saddam Hussein and the Taliban from the Middle East, the United States left room for Iran to fill the vacuum they left." be any better? Eh. Like I said, I think the final version was acceptable, but I agree the first was certainly not. YMMV. Hobit (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

• I agree w/Hobit. And my focus is, as well, on the third deletion that Mkat made (in half an hour, without talkpage discussion). I don't think that unwarranted assertions of copyvio should be used by a sysop, who is bound by wp:admin, and who is without question an involved editor, to delete material he doesn't like. Copyvio is a serious and important concern. But simply saying "I assert it is a copyvio" does not entitle Mkat to bludgeon other editors, where there is no copyvio.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with most of what hobit says but would make the further point that we are dealing with here may not even be a close paraphrase of the source stated - that is if the source "Tehran Rising," by Ilan Berman contains a sentence reading

the U.S. war on terrorism has inadvertently removed two of the major brakes on Iranian power in the region: Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in Iraq and the Islamist Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan.

then the first version is a correctly attributed quote. From memory epeefleche's CCI was mostly filled with examples like this where one secondary source correctly attributes a piece of information to another secondary source and this attribution has been closely paraphrased to wikipedia. The material being paraphrased in these cases does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio. That said in these cases our concern should be one of sourcing we should endeavour to cite the claim in the book rather than citing an article discussing the book as the latter is more likely to appear to be a copyvio even if it isn't. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 10:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This issue involves an article that has not received attention for most of a year, but appears to be being investigated as part of a CCI investigation.  However, the current dispute does not involve copyright violation, because we would not allow a copyright violation to be retained in the edit history of the article.  Instead, this is an editorial dispute over non-copyright-violating "close paraphrasing" by the target of the CCI investigation.  Regarding the initial recent edit to the article, the target of the CCI investigation does not dispute the concern of "close paraphrasing", and does not dispute the initial revert of the material, but instead seeks to restore the work product of the encyclopedia without the concern.  This is where the dispute begins, because the subject of this ANI review refuses to allow improvements to the encyclopedia, refuses to engage in talk page discussion, and on this ANI page escalates by threatening to use administrative tools.  This discussion can be resolved by reminding Mkativerata to discuss editorial disputes on the talk page.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

That's not really an accurate understanding of how we handle copyright problems. We allow them to be retained in the edit history of articles routinely. User:Flatscan and I have just been talking about how that should be addressed. But even I only revdelete extensive issues. (And Mkativerata is more conservative there than I am: ) --Moonriddengirl 18:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Unscintillating--Actually, there is nothing in Mkat's immediately prior edits to suggest that Mkat was looking at Ilan Berman as part of a CCI investigation. Nor did Mkat assert it. BTW, though Berman had not been edited in a year as you point out, Berman had just before Mkat's edits written a NYT article that brought him onto the radar screen. Second, I appreciate your bringing the focus back to the facts here. Finally, it was only after I differed with Mkat that he began deleting articles just now ... before I questioned his approach, he had not touched any articles that were part of the CCI investigation for many months. Immediately after I questioned him, he began vigorously deleting articles of Olympic medal winning athletes in total, not even leaving a stub.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

This is in response to this note and this one, as if I answer them separately I'm going to be doing a lot of repeating myself. :)

Mkativerata picked up working on your CCI (which is much appreciated, since nobody else has been doing it and your CCI was cited at AN a week or two ago as specific evidence that nobody cares about copyright problems) at 19:07 on 17 November. Before you edited that article, he had documented his change and moved on to the next article in line at 19:12 before you first "differed" with these two edits (at 19:16 and 19:18). I watch articles I clean for copyright problems routinely (although not always long enough, as yesterday I cleaned the same pasted content out of an article I cleaned up in 2008). If I disagreed with your rewrite, I would have left you a note at your user talk page explaining why after I reverted you, but, then, if I disagreed with admins actions related to my work, I would have left them a note at their talk page explaining why. I would not have opened an ANI without this step. I haven't looked at the text in question; I've been pretty much unavailable for CCI work myself for months. But the point isn't that Mkativerata may or may not have been wrong in his action. Sometimes there are good faith disagreements about what constitutes a close paraphrase. It happens. The point is that you are assuming a bad faith motive on Mkativerata's part (an agenda), and I do not see any evidence to support that. While Mkativerata had not done work on your CCI lately, Mkativerata has been a CCI regular in the past - this is why he is listed as a CCI Clerk. (Which just shows how out of date we are, since admins don't need to be...and that I really need to get User:MER-C some help here.) He's also been doing some much needed work at WP:CP. Sure, we can look at this in such a way as to suggest that he's been doing all this as some kind of smoke screen to allow him to press an agenda, but not without squinting really hard. :) WP:AGF says if we do any squinting, we should be squinting in the direction of assuming that people mean well.

In terms of avoiding distress, I'll offer you an idea: if you are unhappy with the way other people are cleaning up the CCI, why don't you do it before they get there? While you should not mark an article as resolved on your CCI, there is absolutely no reason that you can't put a note underneath the article title that you believe you have fixed it. Other CCI subjects have done this, and it can work well. --Moonriddengirl 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Moonriddengirl. Her remedy (get in there preemptively to fix things) is more of a challenge than it is a solution I think Epeefleche will avail himself of. I think the best way for Epeefleche to handle Mkativerata’s deletions of his content is—rather than revert Mkativerata—to just revise the deleted text so it no longer appears as a “very close” (or merely “close”) paraphrasing of the original cited work. Thus, if Epeefleche perceives that the deletions had a POV-pushing effect, he can easily fix that problem by taking the time to address the plagiarism concerns. Mkativerata, for his part, can just make sure to leave pithy but accurate edit summaries so that Epeefleche clearly understands the true basis for the edits. Greg L (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

That is good advice. Unfortunately, it seems that Epeefleche has shown little interest in collaborating with the CCI, which has made little progress in a year or so since it has been opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

So if Epee is altering the text repeatedly to ameliorate the copyright violation, that's a good thing right? I'd imagine Mkativerata would, on reflection, agree that even limited cooperation from CCI subjects is better than no cooperation. Since the text has been adjusted significantly to the point that it no longer appears to be a copyright violation (demonstrating, by the by, how easy it is to avoid such a violation in the first place), and Mkat hasn't reverted it again, we're done here with this issue, yes?

And now the next issue: let's discuss (as with Richard Arthur Norton) if Epeefleche's activities should be restricted by topic ban to working with the CCI until his/her contributions have been fully cleaned. Nathan 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Let’s be clear about something, Nathan. Epeefleche is a mature and highly educated editor; he’s not some sort of 16-year-old kid out to make trouble. Notwithstanding his education, he dicked up with some colossal plagiarism and he’s admitted that he screwed up. But part of why he keeps finding himself embroiled here at ANI is because he works in a controversial area: terrorist-related articles. That sort of area intrinsically brings editors with a pro-Israeli bias into conflict with those who have an pro-Islam bias (known, using the standard wiki-quoloqialism, as “POV-pushing where the respective parties have a hard time comprehending other’s worldview”). So…

I have a better idea. Rather than give a productive and mature editor the equivalent of an atomic wedgie (with a splendid public-humiliation tar & feathering aspect to it), we just sit back and watch how Epeefleche and Mkativerata collaborate on Targeted killing; Mkativerata just got through blanking the article for copyright violations. I propose we keep a keen eye for the sort of behavior that these two editors accuse each other of: Epeefleche’s alleged failure to revise very close paraphrasing, and Mkativerata’s alleged use of copyright violations as a pretense to POV-push. Let the sunshine of public inspection reveal the truth of the matter. Greg L (talk) 00:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Greg L's first two sentences. I don't think there's a need for any editing restriction. Fact: Everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free. It's irritating in a way that the CCI remains on foot while Epeefleche enjoys full editing privileges, but irritation isn't a ground for an editing restriction. All I ask is that Epeefleche stays out of the way of editors trying to clean up the copyright violations. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I think we can move forward with that consensus: Epeefleche isn't uploading any copyvios since the CCI started; Mkativerata is using a blunt instrument to remove coypvios uploaded by Epeefleche in the past, but that is sometimes necessary; anyone distressed by this is invited to clean up coypvios in the CCI in whatever other way they see fit before Mkativerata gets to them. Resolved? :-) causa sui (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

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I had some trouble understanding some of the positions taken in this discussion. I found the urls and references in the diffs made it harder to see just what had changed between the versions. So I created a scratch page, in user space, where i could strip out the hidden material, and just use diffs to see how the text changed.

It is my understanding that ideas aren't copyrightable -- only how they are expressed.

We are all volunteers here. No one can force us to undertake a specific task. But, I think once we have undertaken a task we have a responsibility to see it through.

As an administrator Mkat is authorized to excise passages he or she thinks represent a problem. He or she did that here. Mkat edit summary said "Rm a couple of close paraphrases and fix a couple of quotes." -- I suspect most administrators wouldn't have thought any further explanation was necessary -- this time.

However their 2nd excision only said "remains a close paraphrase.. ." And their 3rd excision said "Synonyms and syntax changes do not change close paraphrasing. As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground."

The contributor who made repeated attempts to rewrite the passage says they hoped for more useful feedback as to why their subsequent attempts were being excised. It seems to me that Epee's good faith efforts to draft replacement passages deserved more effort on mkat's part to explain what was wrong with the replacements. Am I missing something? Has mkat made any effort beyond those edit summaries to explain these excisions?

In particular, others have questioned mkat's third excision. I really don't think this thread should be closed without greater discussion as to why that attempted rewrite merited excision. I too don't understand why it was excised.

As I understand it, blocks and bans are not punishment, they are tools intended to preserve the integrity of the project. As I understand it contributors who return from a block, or who have had a topic ban, or other administrative condition agreed upon, should be entitled to the assumption of good faith, so long as they seem to have learned their lesson.

I was not aware that epee had been the subject of a CCI -- whatever that is. But he seems to have made good faith attempts to remedy whatever lapses he made in the past.

It seems to me that one interpretation of mkat's edit summary "As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground" was that this may have been mkat's way of warning epee that he would be blocked if he made another attempt to draft a replacement passage. This really concerns me. I am really concerned when I see an administrator making a vague warning to a good faith contributor that they may block them in the future, when that warning doesn't clearly say what future behavior will trigger the block and under which policy they think the block is authorized.

This warning -- if that is what it was -- seems very problematic to me, if mkat can't offer a fuller explanation for the excision that accompanied it.

Included for your reading pleasure -- diffs with extraneous hidden material excised, so you can see more clearly, how the different versions varied. Geo Swan (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

	target of 'close paraphrase' claim
	diff between target and version 1
	diff between target and version 2
	diff between target and version 3	If you only click on one link here, click on this one. It is the excision of this version that I think most clearly merits further explanation.
	diff between target and current version

• I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee. I hope they will return here and do so. Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

New blanking by Mkativerata in his COI area; Mkat's threat to block

Mkat admits he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area. In deletions that triggered this AN/I, he ignored his COI. (His claim of "close paraphrasing" was highly dubious, but even had it not been dubious his correct course given his COI would have been to post his concern on a noticeboard, where someone non-involved could pursue it). Mkat was alerted to this issue.

Mkat responded above: "I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI." But -- I haven't been disrupting any CCI. That sysop Mkat would threaten me with a block, for reporting my concerns above, troubles me.

Mkat has just now, after the above AN/I discussion, gone 1 step further. Blanking the entire article targeted killing. An article that is clearly within his COI area. (which I contributed to significantly this past year).

As an aside, it is highly dubious that this 194-ref targeted killing article was a copyvio. And that Mkat's blanking of it was proper--even if Mkat had not had a COI.

Mkat is thus continuing to delete material in disregard of his COI. And of wp:admin. And he only began blanking articles I had worked on after our disagreement 4 days ago on 2 sentences in the Berman article -- before the Berman article, he had not blanked or deleted material from any articles I worked on for at least 10 months, as far as I can recall, but after I disagreed with him he engaged in the above behavior. That adds to the impression that his blanking here is part of a pattern of retribution. By an involved sysop.

I gather that Mkat is displeased I disagreed with him 2 days ago, as to what constituted a "close paraphrase". And as to his failure to use the talkpage for discussion. But I wonder whether his blocking threat and his article blanking here, especially given his COI, are what wp:admin had in mind.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

You are attributing motives when there does not seem to be one. Frankly, at this point I'm sorely tempted to just write a script that adds {{subst:copyvio}} to all the articles referenced in the CCI. You are also totally confusing conflict of interest and involvement. T. Canens (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the explanation for my self-declaration of ARBPIA involvement. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

So the entirety of your "involvement" is having endorsed two views in an RFC in 2010? Honestly, I think you are being overly cautious here. That makes the claims here even more spurious... T. Canens (talk) 11:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I have demonstrated, with diffs, that Mkativerata picked up on your work on CCI and was continuing to work on your CCI before you objected to the first edit. It's true he had not yet blanked an article on this go-around; had Mkativerata never blanked an article of yours before or if blanking articles for further evaluation at WP:CP wasn't standard, you might have cause for concern. But Mkativerata's behavior here is no different than Mkativerata's behavior was in January (for one example of many: ). It is the same behavior he has brought to bear on other CCIs in unrelated areas (for one example: ), and it is the same behavior others bring to bear on CCIs, where blanking articles is one of the standard operating procedures. (We even have a special template for articles that are blanked without evidence where presumption of copying is strong: {{CCId}}.) I have no reason to think that Mkativerata is handling your CCI any differently than anybody else's CCI has been handled. Actually, I think blanking is likely more prudent than text removal at this point given your presumption of bad faith on his part. That way, he flags the problem, but another administrator will oversee any proposed cleanup you place in the temp space and work with you through any disagreements on whether or not content has been rewritten from scratch. I have myself taken this tack when contributors personalize cleanup efforts of their CCIs to help minimize any feeling that I might be subjecting them to unfair scrutiny because I don't like them or because I have a bias against their subject areas. (That said, I don't at all mean to discourage Mkativerata from removing or rewriting the content directly.) --Moonriddengirl 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, you're not doing yourself any huge favors here. You fail to mention in your complaint that Mkat first removed numerous specific examples of copyright violations, and only upon deciding that it was likely the entire article was suspect did he proceed to blank it. This thought progression is pretty clear and obvious just from the edit history. If you want to rescue the article, fix it. If you want to avoid having this happen to other articles of yours, fix them. If you'd rather go on working on new content and avoid any attempt to fix your past mistakes, just wipe your watchlist and start over. Nathan 15:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I came here from another users talk page where Epeefleche had left a message with a link to this thread in a section below a message I had left that user. As such I know little about this case other than what I haver read here.

@Greg L, I thought your tenacious defence of Epeefleche's behaviour over the introduction of the Targeted killing article was misguided, but there you are, it was a matter of opinion. To my surprise I find you here in this thread trying to defend the undefendable. Just out of interest can you provide a diff to the last time that you criticised anything Epeefleche has done, or vice versa? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I am amazed that Epeefleche opened this ANI and there are several points I would like to make: Epeefleche wrote above "Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. ... not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio." That statement shows that Epeefleche has no understanding of how much copyright infringement endangers this project. Blatant petty vandalism is annoying, but it does not threaten the project. Subtle vandalism that introduces libel that goes undetected for months does, and so do copyright violations if we are not seen to be using due diligence to prevent it and clean it up. This makes me wonder how likely it is that Epeefleche has seen the light and understands how much damage (s)he has done to the project.

I find this statement baffling "We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules." Is Epeefleche stating the when (s)he wrote the Targeted killing article on 30 September 2010 (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules"? Or is it that there were no copyright violations in that article? If (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules" on 30 of September last year on what date did (s)he become familiar with them? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

User:JaMikePA

I don't think I'm putting this at the right place, AN confuses me. Anyway, JaMikePA (talk · contribs), refuses to build consensus and would rather revert repeatedly. Recently, the Miami Marlins and and Toronto Blue Jays had a makeover of their logos and uniforms. As such the article for the two was updated. I updated the the colors using a graphic design industry trusted blog. Determined he was right he's revert me at least 20 times of the past 6 days saying blogs cannot be reliable sources and citing this failed proposal. As the blog is reliable, I and other have reverted him every time and asked him a couple times to stop and if disputes the reliability to start a discussion on the talk page. He hasn't, instead he's continued to revert and redo the colors. I would like someone to either tell him to stop or block him for disruptive edit warring. Thanks. CRRaysHead90 | 20:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi, you can try WP:AN3 - and be prepared with diffs of the revert war/3RR/edit war. Also be sure it is recent, and I'd suggest ensuring you did not engage in edit warring as well (ya know, the whole WP:BOOMERANG effect) - I haven't dug too deeply, but I haven't found a revert war in a very quick perusal. Regardless, AN3 may be the way to go if you have tried and cannot resolve this on the article's talk page(s). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 01:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the Toronto Blue Jays article, why do the colours even need to be cited with that blog? It seems entirely superfluous; as far as I see, that data is already appropriately sourced. WilliamH (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

CRRays, perhaps you should follow WP's rules by not using blogs as sources. I have every right to revert something b/c you fail to follow the rules. Stop using blogs! JaMikePA (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the rules for WP:REVERT might not say exactly what you suggest. Yes, blogs are not WP:RS, but reversion is for vandalism (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I think he's using the term "revert" Colloquially, and not in the terms that you and I have come to know as regular editors on wikipedia.--JOJ 20:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Both editors are rather gaming the system and working to avoid violating 3RR. I've fully protected both pages and I remind them that page protection is not an endorsement of the current version, and that the onus on them to include their changes is establishing mutual agreement among editors. Since both pages are protected, blocking at this stage would only be punitive - the sooner consensus is established the better, and blocks would only delay this. WilliamH (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'm gonna ask now that those pages be unprotected. The full protection is disruptive to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Baseball and there are many league and team changes that need to be made to not just these, but all MLB pages, due to the winter league meetings and free agency.--JOJ 23:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not willing to withdraw full protection for an edit war incase it hinders constructive edits. Preemptiveness is no part of page protection, that's also why we do not protect pages for fear of unconstructive edits. Feel free to request uncontroversial changes via the established means. WilliamH (talk) 01:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Is full protection necessary for an edit war involving just two users? {{uw-ew}} both of them, then start handing out blocks if they prefer to continue a battle rather than hash it out on the talk pages. Resolute 01:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No, this is overkill. See no reason to fully protect these pages. And there is no time table as well, since the protection is indefinite.--JOJ 02:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I've lifted the protection per the two points raised here, remember that it can be lifted at any time, irrespective of how long it is set for. I would implore the two parties to not revert until they have discussed their proposed changes fully, because that'll probably cost them their editing rights the next time they do. My first inclination has been and always will be to see stuff upheld by consensus, not blocks. WilliamH (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned this edit war is over, I'm done reverting him on this. I was being point-y and I apologize, however, I still think the other user at question was wrong for ignoring my requests for discussion on the talk page, if he had listened this wouldn't have happened. Then again it would have happened if I hadn't kept reverting either, so we're both wrong. From this point I hope the other user in question submits to consensus building on the talk page so we can put this to rest once and for all. Once again, I apologize for my behavior. One last thing, I request the other user quit citing that failed proposal since it officially has no barring on how Misplaced Pages is run. Thanks. CRRaysHead90 | 07:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, an indefinite full protection makes little sense. If it does need protection, a month-long semi seems to be called for. –BuickCenturyDriver 08:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Both editors are autoconfirmed, so that would be inconsequential. WilliamH (talk) 20:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban review

I've been under an indefinite topic ban on Indian history since April 8, 2011. While I never thought that this community imposed ban was appropriate and hold the same belief today, I've tried to stick to the conditions of the ban as I have understood them. If and when I inadvertently violated the terms of the ban while fighting vandalism or while editing a topic that sometimes strayed in to "ban territory", I (or others) have reported it to the relevant admin. I was told AN/I and RFC/U were possible relevant avenues to get the ban lifted. I chose AN/I because it is simpler and less time consuming.

• Subpage that made the ban formal
• ANI that led to my topic ban
• Subsection of the ANI that discussed the ban
• Other relevant diffs available from here

I am requesting the Misplaced Pages community to consider a review of the ban. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• I think it would be appropriate for some explanation to be provided. For example, was the original topic ban totally wrong, or was it at least partially justified? What has changed to warrant a change in the topic ban? I am involved, as I supported the March 2011 topic ban. Johnuniq (talk) 07:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Although related to current affairs in India rather than history, the POV apparent in the wording of the first edit to a new article, and then the subsequent reinstatement of it later does not bode well. There have been other problems recently, at other articles, eg: see Talk:Kunbi#Shudra and Talk:Kunbi#Kunbis_are_not_non-elite (in fact, all over that particular article, there were insertions/removals of stuff that were of of clear POV-pushing nature). I know that Zuggernaut can do good things but the hang-ups about the British Raj and the promotion of a modern-day "nationalist" agenda still seem to be issues.

I do find the interaction ban with User:Fowler&fowler to be a little strange and perhaps that needs to be revisited. If nothing else, it is one-sided & has proved to be next to impossible reasonably to enforce.Was not involved in the original ban discussion but have had dealings since.. - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

The non-neutral canvassing was wrong and I've used neutral wording since then. There are no other changes, i.e:

1. I would definitely support the Ganges to Ganga move and help those who initiate it
2. I plan on initiating a move from Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi to Mahatama Gandhi once every year as new sources are generated
3. The lead of the India article is highly POV and unbalanced. By jumping from the Indus Valley Civilization to the East India Company, it skips one vital line capturing the period in Indian history that has shaped Indian culture, the Indian mind and the Indian character, i.e, the period when concepts of the Atma (or also their Buddhist and Jain equivalents) and the Brahman, the unity of the two and various other philosophies were developed. I will work towards building consensus on the inclusion of this one line if the ban is lifted.
4. No new material on famines and Churchill has emerged so I will not edit anything in that regard for now. As soon as a new source other than Mukherjee and Amartya Sen (whose views have repeatedly been rubbished by POV warriors), I will attempt to update relevant articles.
5. I have little interest in the lists of inventions.

I have updated my original post to include a link to ArbCom where most of the relevant diffs can be seen. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Declaring a desire to pursue tendentious editing is a bad way to ask for a topic ban review. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose"No new material on famines and Churchill has emerged so I will not edit anything in that regard for now". (emphasis mine) This statement alone shows that Zuggernaut has not understood the necessity of their topic ban. --Blackmane (talk) 11:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed community ban of User:Shakinglord

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(rescued from IncidentArchive727 at 12:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC))

Shakinglord (talk · contribs)

Per this user's continued sockpuppet abuse and constant denial of it, I'm hereby proposing an indefinite ban. Calabe1992 03:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support per proposal. —Scheinwerfermann ·_C05:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support. It's better to make this official because that makes it easier for other editors to revert them and deny them attention. Hans Adler 18:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support Nothing really productive (e.g. article creation > vandalism-reversion) has ever came out of him. HurricaneFan25 18:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Reluctant support - but the frankly bizzare behavior of this editor leads to the conclusion he's WP:NOTHERE and that Misplaced Pages is better off without him. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:12, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Claims not to be a sock, but then admits. Curious statement about sharing a sock account with another user. Nothing sounds right here. Glrx (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support; they seem to be a net negative to wikipedia. bobrayner (talk) 11:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support: the less attention we give these individuals the better it is for everyone, including them. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 04:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
• A little hasty methinks. Shakinglord only seems to have discovered the joy of drama relatively recently (pretty much a month ago today he started hanging around ANI), and up until then basically behaved himself. Leave it at indef and explain exactly what Shakinglord needs to do to get back into the community. As an aside, some of the above comments are pretty nasty, and people should remember that just because an editor is blocked that doesn't make him fair game for abuse. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree on the comments comment, but an editor who creates socks or allows "friends" to create accounts indistinguishible from socks - for the sole purpose of harassing himself, then claims he has no knowledge of them at AN/I and SPI, is somebody who is WP:NOTHERE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support Strong Support -- This user has exhausted our patience. Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 15:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Can an uninvolved admin close this please before the bot ignores the do-not-archive thing again? :) Thanks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• Archive avoidance: The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:38 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack by Sswonk

• Sswonk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Evertype (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• User talk:Sswonk (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), User talk:Sarah777 (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), User talk:Thryduulf (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

At user talk:Sarah777 SSwonk made a statement that I considered to be highly inappropriate , so I gave a "formal warning" explaining why I felt that way (copied also to Sswonk's talk page). Perhaps this was over the top, and certainly Everclear has disagreed with my assessment. I disagree that it was, and would normally just continue to discuss it civilly so we could reach an agreement. If I had been presudaded that it was inappropriate, then I would have redacted and/or altered all or part of my statement. However, Sswonk's response to me (also at mine and his talk) was full of personal attacks, "I formally reject your authority, because you use it to stifle critics, prop up your ego and spread fantastic, poisonous lies about other editors", leaving me disinclined to reconsider my original statement.

I would like independent validation that Sswonk's comments were personal attacks, that they are and were inappropriate and either a civility block of Sswonk, or a statement noting that a block was considered but rejected that explains why it was rejected (this is not saying that I cannot see any justification for not blocking, quite the opposite, but if a block is not considered appropriate I feel it would benefit all parties to understand why). Additionally, I would like independent eyes on my original "formal warning" and feedback on it's appropriateness or otherwise. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I posted the above at WP:WQA, where it was suggested that WP:AN/I would be the better venue, so here I am. I'll notify people about the venue change with my next edits. Thryduulf (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

(As the request includes a ban request, I asked Thryduulf to move the post here from WQA but he has requested my feedback).

Sswonk's comments are undoubtedly incivil but do not rise to the level requiring intervention. It is my understanding Sarah7777 is under arbcom ban and showed wisdom in passing on comment. I do think Sswonk's request to quote her was ill-advised but not "seriously inappropriate," and did not warrant a harshly worded "formal warning." Simply leaving it at "Sarah is to be commended for her actions in voluntarily consulting with her mentor and then taking his advice" would have been sufficient. I generally don't consider single posts to talk page "hounding." While I commend Thryduulf for being willing to speak up in the situation, the best response to inflammatory replies is to ignore them and move on. Gerardw (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. Congratulations to Sarah for dodging a potential missile and behaving perfectly. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, well done to Sarah. Perhaps we could use this apparent storm in a teacup opportunity to relax her topic ban conditions as suggested on her talkpage by her mentor User:John. Off2riorob (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I can't imagine why someone at WQA said to bring it here ... blocks will not be handed out, based on what I see ... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Imagination is not required as the discussion at WQA is available for review. Gerardw (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I am Evertype not Everclear, and I think it is ridiculous that Thryduulf has escalated this to an Administrators "Incident". I think he overreacted in the first place, and that he owes Sswonk an apology twice over now. -- Evertype·✆ 16:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Recommend both editors 'forgive & forget'. GoodDay (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• First I just want to echo Kitty above, I've been a critic of Sarah777's for a long while so kudos to her for doing the right thing in the midst of this.
  That siad I sympathize with Thryduulf - Sswonk is and has been using Sarah777's page as a forum for a while - sometimes to do the right thing (ie talk to Sarah and try to help her see another perspective) but obviously this time not to. A warning for that outburst was appropriate (maybe not a 'formal final warning' though) and a reminder that his reply is not acceptable either wouldn't go a miss either. This instance may not warrant a block this time, but this kind of behaviour is close to that territory--Cailil 16:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As yet another party to the discussion that's been the cause of this discussion, let me say that I think everyone involved in the conversation with Sarah777 (whom I don't know) was acting reasonably and in good faith. One user asked a genuine question - were there editors who found the current page title of Republic of Ireland fundamentally objectionable. There may be circumstances I'm not aware of that meant asking Sarah777 about it directly was unwise or even risked getting her into trouble, but as far as I can see nobody (whether Sswonk or Dmcq) was trying to so anything other than make sure that all views were fairly represented in the discussion about the page title. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's assessment. -- Evertype·✆ 17:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

My only problem with this issue is that at user talk:Sarah777, Sswonk suggested that Sarah type "What Sswonk wrote is accurate, I am exceedingly unhappy with the title, and do not want to participate in discussions due to discomfort with the atmosphere". Sswonk should be well aware that Sarah is topic-banned from the page in question, so her non-participation is not due to any "discomfort with the atmosphere." That said, I've no problem with the first clause of his suggestion. Agree with Cailil and Kittybrewster above - fair play to Sarah. There's no need for a block here, that would just escalate things unnecessarily at WP:IECOLL. Let's close this and move on? Bastun 23:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Agreed; and also as regards Sarah's response. However, Sswonk's response is distinctly problematic (this one, which I suspect people have missed in the links above, because it's buried in the middle of the text). Starting with "here is a formal warning, you are a WP:DICK" is not a promising start, and "For someone of your caliber to become an administrator after only six months of work in 2005, and proceed to consider that license hold the views you do and lord over people who disagree with you is a severe insult to the intelligence of the populations of wiki editors and readers alike. I formally reject your authority, because you use it to stifle critics, prop up your ego and spread fantastic, poisonous lies about other editors." is something which, had I seen it at the time (stale now), I would probably have blocked for. I would strongly suggest that Sswonk doesn't come out with that type of personal attack again. Black Kite (t) 20:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Sswonk

This is over, as far as I am concerned. However, I want it made very clear that I am deeply insulted by Thryduulf's behavior and by some of the statements on this page. There is no excuse in society for a person under pretense of authority to act in a decisive way to defame another that they do not know without cause. From the article Defamation: Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. The original statements by Thryduulf were outlandish and defamatory, they were slander. That doesn't deserve backslapping nor sympathy, Cailil. Take a minute to view it from my perspective, read what this person I do not know, said to me out of the blue sky:

"I find that comment very close to seriously inappropriate behaviour. It gives the distinct impression of trying to put words in another user's mouth. It is clearly against the spirit of canvassing, and it smacks of trying to 'stir up trouble' (for possible want of a better phrase) by way of tempting Sarah to go against the advice of her mentor, possibly in the hope of getting her involved in a large and potentially uncivil discussion where consensus is not currently matching your views."

Even though he has learned to cleverly throw in lawerly words like gives the impression and smacks of, it is nevertheless still defamatory. He seeks to directly accuse me of canvassing and stirring up trouble, tempting my friend to do something against her better judgement, and wanting her to get involved in a discussion I am "losing". All of that is a lie, what I did was ask her to respond in the affirmative on her page to something I had at that moment summarized and attributed to her. Nothing there is against the advice John gave, and I was seeking, as he does, to protect her from further trouble. I offered an example statement of the length and tone I felt would be appropriate, not the actual words to use. To call it "canvassing" still has me dumbfounded, I find that absurd. Not one thoughtful reading by a thoughtful person of what I wrote to Sarah should cause a person to defame me and accuse me of asking her to write something on IECOLL, or any of those other things. The amount of untruth within that series of words is breathtaking, even if an attempt was made to color it as speculation through use of escapes such as "smacks of". To find someone will "commend" this sort of thoughtless, rude and yes, defamatory behavior by administrators, as Gerardw commends Thryduulf, is troubling. And Black Kite, I won't disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but you misquoted me. If you are going to go through the process of participating in this sort of action, please be very sure you get the word right. It was "Thryduulf, consider this a formal warning: you are being a WP:DICK.", not as you wrote "...you are a WP:DICK". Also Black Kite if you were in a public space, say a newsstand, talking to a friend in plaintive tones asking for a minor act of assistance, a nod of agreement, and someone you did not know suddenly came up and accused you of gross misbehavior, of seeking to do her harm, of asking her to go against advice of other people and to go fight your battles for you, how then would you feel? If any of that were the case, you might not feel insulted or a need to tell the accuser off. If it were all untrue, I would like to see how you would react. I think that having that happen to you might cause you to tell the person they are wrong, and have no business making those accusations, and are in fact not deserving of any authority to do so.

To have the freedom and right to act anonymously and irresponsibly in public like that does not exist... unless it is on a web forum such as this, when the person doing so if he is told off can then run and complain to denizens of a forum such as AN/I. This is not reality, and your positions here are not deserved if you think defamation, and then making the vicitm of defamation feel a reaction to that is something he should feel bad about, are warranted. So, I am done telling you this is done. But I did not start the situation, and even though he deserves it I would never run to some star council and ask for action against Thryduulf. Just suffice to say, I am not swayed at all to believe that he was within any right to write what he did, which served to initiate lies and make insults. Think about that, Thryduulf, before you jump in anywhere else. Sswonk (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• If you don't want to have people tell you what you've done wrong, then it's probably best that you don't give them reason to - in this case trying for no apparent reason to get an editor to violate her topic ban. Whilst Thryduulf may have gone a little further than I would, he was effectively correct. You said "This website is such a cesspool that a highly intelligent grown woman can't even speak her own mind.". Well, first of all, no, she can't when she's topic-banned on that issue (and again, well done to Sarah for not doing so), and secondly, you probably need to read WP:FREESPEECH. Also, your statement was utterly pointless; everyone who has ever edited on Ireland-related issues knows that Sarah disagrees with the RoI article title, and how difficult would it have been for you to dig through her previous contribs, rather than do what you did? If you disagree with what someone has done or said, then there are ways and means of doing so, rather than rather speciously claiming defamation (which incidentally needs to be a deliberately false statement). Throwing around insults is never a good idea; I note you're still accusing him of lying in this reply, and it would be a very good idea to stop now or take it to dispute resolution of some type. Black Kite (t) 07:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Uncooperative editor has serious problems with WP:FRINGE and WP:RS

Wheres Dan (talk · contribs) is always using sources (most WP:FRINGE) from the 1800s which contain information that modern sources don't bother to reprint. Dougweller, Heironymous Rowe, and I have repeatedly asked him to find the information in modern sources to verify that the information is still accepted by modern scholarship. To date, he hasn't (or hasn't found anything), and I know I failed to find anything as well (even though it's his job to find that stuff, not mine).

• He has previously been blocked for various personal attacks, including refering to good faith edits as vandalism (in that case, while reversing WP:BRD after I explained it to him elsewhere) and calling Dougweller an antisemite.
• Here he suggests that a 1938 occultist source is an appropriate source for to suggest that historians think that the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio is connected to the unrelated deities Kneph (more on that later) and Ahura Mazda, and unspecified "Japanese and Indian traditions."
• Even after his previous block, he shows contempt for anyone not supporting his edits, and makes up imaginary editors to support him.

The few good edits he's made (like this), do not begin to outway the amount of following after he is going to require, as he does not understand cooperative discussion in the slightest, and twists guidelines to his own ends (such as reversing WP:BRD to insist that other people discuss his edits without reversion, reinterpreting WP:RS so that outdated, unscholarly, or fringe sources have to be countered).

This is a highly uncooperative fringe-pushing editor, who one admin has considered blocking indefinately. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

 Question: Were you going to let us know who it is, or just keep us in suspense? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

D'oh! Meant to put that in the beginning. Editted in. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE has steps for liberal blocking of longstanding pushing of fringe sources. Trying to link a mound in Ohio with Ahura Mazda is definitely way fringe. If the editor has been sufficiently warned and can be shown to have continued afterwards (diffs, please, if you have them) then escalating blocks are definitely called for, in my opinion. Just need an uninvolved admin to do it. (And what was the more on Kneph?) DreamGuy (talk) 16:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion we have too much patience for this type of editor. There are obvious WP:COMPETENCE issues, and that should be enough for a block. Hans Adler 16:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ack, forgot that (should really finish my morning Mt Dew before I do anything). At Kneph, Wheres Dan continued to push fringe and outdated material, taking a 19th century source (which should have been removed) that conflates Kneph, Osiris, Jesus, and Krishna and turning it into the primary source for the article, and citing a metaphysical text by René Guénon for historical information.

The histories for the articles Tribe of Dan, Kneph, and Serpent Mound show nothing but continued reversions after being asked to not use fringe and outdated sources.

Wheres Dan has just cited several outdated and fringe sources that were previously removed, claiming that Dougweller approved of all of them because Wheres Dan included two sources Doug suggested along with the fringe material.

He is also being a hypocritical when it comes to sourcing. This demonstrates that he understands that 19th century romantic, reductionist, and religious material are not reliable sources for historical claims, but when ignores this when it supports his point of view.

Even if it weren't for the fringe issues, that his concept of cooperation is a bit one-sided seems reason enough to not want him on this site. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

And now he's reported me for edit warring (even though I have yet to violate 3rr and have reverted no more than he has), where he accuses me of acting out of a religious bias by taking a comment out of context (at first, he tried to accuse me of an anti-Biblical bias, which prompted me to point out that I'm a Baptist). As I've stated over at WP:3RRNB, I will no longer be nice about this, he is useless to this site and should be blocked. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement that editors of this persuasion are given way too much leniency here. The user has shown, per this conversation at Talk:Serpent Mound#Tribe of Dan Egyptian gods nonsense, that they either have WP:COMPETENCE issues or are on an elaborate trolling mission to insert inaccurate information into articles. The user couldn't seem to understand the difference or wouldn't admit the difference between the armchair philosophizing of a historian (if you want to call an author publishing in "Rosicrucian Digest" in 1938 an actual "historian") in the early 1900s and the 100 years of peer reviewed academic archaeology that has taken place since that armchair historian wrote his book. They have also yet seemed to understand our policies on WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:OR, and WP:RELIABLE. It's not our job to tell a person what to believe, but surely, we can stop them from serially inserting this] sort of nonsense into history and archaeology articles? Heiro 18:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Since they've been blocked before, I've just blocked for a week for edit-warring at Tribe of Dan during which they overstepped 3RR as well as WP:COMPETENCE. I've pointed out both in the block notice, and also noted how they can contribute to this discussion. But frankly, if anyone wants to up it to indef, be my guest. Black Kite (t) 19:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

"conflates Kneph, Osiris, Jesus, and Krishna" — where have I seen that before — Caesarion and WillBildUnion (talk · contribs). Maybe.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

To be fair, Wheres Dan is citing a lot of 19th century sources, and a lot of people (whatever their beliefs) who wrote about religion in the 19th century were kinda stupid (IMO more so than in eras before or after). He doesn't quite smell the same to me. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree that there are generally very serious, questions about the current reliability of sources from the era of the source in question. Having said that, I think that there probably is, to some degree, information of this type which is relevant to at least some article, maybe a spinoff, in wikipedia. We do rather often have child articles which might address or summarize previous opinions regarding a subject, and it rather often is the case that such older premises, for good or ill, are in some way foundational to current theories, of varying reliability. I think maybe confining the editor to relevant talk pages, until and unless there is obvious and poorly-defensible editing abuse there as well, might be the best alternative. John Carter (talk) 22:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

*Ahem* I'm thinking it's time for an indef. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

To be clearer about my previous remark, a sockpuppet of Wheres Dan has been found and indefed. The block on Wheres Dan is still for a week. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

More socks have been found. This guy knows what he's doing. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Wheres Dan after looking at the various contribs of the socks at the SPI, which go back for weeks and months even, I think my above mentioned suspicion that WP:COMPETENCE may not be the issue but that an elaborate trolling mission to insert inaccurate information into articles may be. One of the accounts (User:Sourced much) seemed to be overly drawn to articles on Nazis, specifically attempts to white wash their reputations(see here). I would like to ask for an indefinite block or possibly a community ban for this editor. Would there be any support for this? Heiro 03:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If you can find evidence of him using the socks to votestack, vandalise or commit other offenses, then the block can be extended. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Ban proposal

• I support a community ban on Wheres Dan and associated accounts due to the systematic and planned disruption of the encyclopaedic process by pushing FRINGE. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support community ban as per my statement above. Heiro 03:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support community ban, as Where's Dan is too academically and/or ethically incompetent to be of help here. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support community ban, with regrets, based on editors apparent inability or unwillingness to abide by basic standards of good conduct. While it is possible that some of the material he seeks to include might be appropriate, his actions to support that material very clearly are not. John Carter (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Strong Support Serious competence issues, refusal to act collaboratively, and a preference for wholly unreliable, extreme fringe sources, and the use of sockpuppet accounts - we need to protect the encyclopedia. --NellieBly (talk) 04:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Weird activity on fish stubs

This isn't a complaint, and it's not vandalism. I don't know what it is, but the editors won't talk about it, so I thought I'd mention it here. It's a bunch of SPA's editing fish stubs by pasting in what looks like term papers. Here are the three I spotted. It seems like a class project or something, given the sporadic and longterm nature of the editing. I also notified the fish wikproject:

1. Popeye Shiner by Lmb213 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Etheostoma neopterum by Jkaitchu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. Luxilus coccogenis by Jusabelle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Forgetting for a moment whether they are term papers or not, what is the quality of the articles, in terms of content and references? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

It's really random. At first it was super lousy, now some of them are improving, but they generally include a lot of off-topic material. Instead of being about the fish, they have sections like "recommendations for management". They could be turned into good articles, but they really need some guidance.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 03:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I just went ahead and deleted the entire "Management Recommendation" section in the Popeye Shiner article, and included a detailed edit summary. I don't have the time or desire to go through the rest of these articles, but if the others are like this one, there might be a big problem of an editor, or group of editors, though well intentioned, not writing articles in accordance with the NPOV policies. Quinn 03:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look. The others are exactly like that one, and I'm sure there are some I haven't found. It seems that they're working off some kind of template. I left multiple messages for them asking them to tell their teacher to get in touch, but so far no responses.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 04:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If they won't talk, block them. It is possibly an unregistered school project or something like that done by people who are familiar with how we write articles here. That kind of stuff strays into WP:NOTHOWTO and the like.--Crossmr (talk) 04:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can't exactly block them. It's amazing how much they won't talk, though.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 05:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I think a temporary block for the accounts involved would probably solve the problem. It might seem harsh, but remember that blocks are preventative, not punitive, and there is clearly a threat to content; as alf said, we don't even know the full extent yet. After getting a block and decent explanation on the talk pages they'll probably get the message that wikipedia isn't the place to write a class project. Or the deadline will pass, they'll all flunk and the danger will pass. Happy days. Basalisk ⁄_berate 06:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If these are good faith edits to stubs, blocks are grossly excessive. Correct deficiencies through the normal editing process — this should not be an ANI matter at all. I'm just finished watching an hour of Sue Gardner video before the UK Misplaced Pages Chapter, during which she touched upon the serious issue of Rogue Administrators. Tread lightly around new content creators!!! —Tim ///// Carrite (talk) 08:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Carrite. These appear to be good faith edits and I do not see anything here that would require a block. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 12:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No communication is a serious issue for any editor, new or old. It's very disruptive especially in the case of controversial edits. It's hard to miss people posting to your talk, even if you're a new user. that big banner is pretty obvious. While their edits may have been made in good faith, so were the attempts made to communicate with them and stop the disruptive behaviour. If they behaviour continues, and they don't respond, blocking is the only choice a responsible administrator can make. There is nothing else to be done with people who refuse communication.--Crossmr (talk) 12:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Why? Are they reverting to a version with the bad content? Why can't you oversight them as an editor instead of getting out your great big disciplinary bit? Fifelfoo (talk) 12:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it is not at all unreasonable to block the members of a badly done school project if you can't otherwise get their attention. Anyone who just dumps essays into article space and doesn't start communicating is fair game for a block. Hans Adler 13:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• I disagree. Blocking in this situation is excessive. Jehochman 13:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Reiterating Fifelfoo's point, have they edit-warred with anyone? If not, it would be interesting to see just what grounds there would be for blocking. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• I recently made two fish stubs and was paranoid for a second I agree a blocking is not needed. There are other ways to get their attention before that, and it often takes me more than four hours to reply to a talk page message too. Not unreasonable for a seasoned admin, let alone a newbie. I don't think this ANI report was made with anything other than the best intentions, though. S.G. _ping! 13:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I left messages on the article talk to try to get their attention that way. S.G. _ping! 13:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Newbies may not understand how the talk page works. We need to be more patient, as long as they are not edit warring. Jehochman 14:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I definitely think blocks would be a bad, bad idea. I left a note here because I wanted advice on how to get them to talk, not because I wanted anyone blocked. If I'd known it'd get to this stage, I probably wouldn't have done it. But anyway, a big part of what editing WP can teach students is the sometimes contentious nature of collaboration, and they're certainly getting a lesson in that. My feeling is that their stuff must be due this morning, and their teacher will see what's been going on and probably get in touch and it'll all be OK.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

They may not be communicating but it does seem like they are partially getting the mesage. For example User:Lmb213 self removed two of the more problematic sections which they had added back, I think because they were working on this externally and added the newest version. Also if you look at the edit history there, Lmb213 first appeared in 28 September and then did a small amount of of work until now which supports alf laylah wa laylah idea there's likely a deadline soon. Also this IP 216.96.195.102 once added content after Lmb213 appeared which looks a lot like the stuff Lmb213 has been adding so I think we can guess which university this project is for (unless it's a school not university project and the student was just there for research). Nil Einne (talk) 15:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems this isn't something new. Conasauga logperch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Yellowfin madtom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) suggest it has happened before. Nil Einne (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there any indication that these accounts may be related to an education program. When the education programs started, this is what it looked like to me. They looked like SPAs adding term-paper-like material to articles that were common in some way. Failing/refusing/being unable to converse with other editors was an issue for some IEP students but not many. I'm not convinced that these accounts belong to students in an education program but the article should probably be checked for copyright violations if they haven't already. OlYeller21 20:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah revert them first, and if they edit war with you, then block them. causa sui (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The IP address (216.96.195.102) provided by User:Nil Einne traces back to the University of Tennessee. --64.85.214.213 (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Title

Does anyone else think "Weird activity on fish stubs" is the most surrealistic AN/I section header we've had in a while? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought something was fishy. Alexandria (chew out) 21:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Could be worse - could have been weird tasting fish sticks... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll try not to take that as a challenge to come up with something surrealisticker next time...— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I figured initially that fish stubs are something you would have with tater tots. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Could have been weirder ... someone with a stubby and a fish ...? No more visuals, please. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 01:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Holy mackerel! - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll have the fish stubs with a side of US Congress-defined culinary vegetables, please. LadyofShalott 05:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Unless you're Australian like me, in which case a stubby is a short 375mL beer as opposed to a long neck which is a tall 375mL beer. Hmmm is that a red herring I smell? --Blackmane (talk) 10:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

List of culinary vegetables

List of culinary vegetables‎ has has a spate of anonymous edits attempting to add "Pizza" (usually with foul language as pseudo-latin species names) as a culinary vegetable. They've been from a variety of IP addresses, which is puzzling. Each has been reverted, but they keep coming back. Would this be a good case for semi-protection? Waitak (talk) 03:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If it continues, you could report it to WP:RFPP. You'll usually get pretty fast action there. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

For what its worth the Feds have classified pizza as a vegetable regarding school lunch menus, so perhaps that is what is provoking this bout of vandalism. Quinn 03:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Pizza in the United States is fully protected right now for precisely this reason.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Reported to WP:RFPP. Thanks for the feedback. Waitak (talk) 04:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If our government actually has defined pizza as a vegetable, maybe removing it constitutes vandalism (except for the bogus Latin stuff). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Honestly? Pizza is no more a vegetable than ketchup, despite what one nation's government may declare at the behest of the food industry. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I would say at least a mention of the controversy should be allowed in Pizza in the United States (and it's not as if it's a great article anyway). The story has been reported worldwide, admittedly quite often in a "Hey before we go today, here's a funny story about how stupid Americans are" way, though Americans themselves have contributed too (I liked this; "Because we live in America, where people, who have been elected to public office, do not believe in climate science, but do believe pizza is a vegetable." ). Black Kite (t) 07:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

That, or perhaps even Pizza as a vegetable along the same lines as the ketchup article. But certainly not "The US Congress said it's now a vegetable, so it must be so." --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

A tomato is technically a fruit, so no vegetable classification is possible. Talk amongst yourselves. Doc talk 08:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As noted in the Tomato article, it is botanically a fruit, but from the culinary standpoint it's a vegetable. (For example, you'll find tomatoes in vegetable salads but not fruit salads.) Presumably pizza being considered a vegetable has to do with the use of tomato sauce on it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Botanically is the key, of course. Cucumbers, pumpkins: seed-bearing plant ovaries are all technically fruits. Sweet things is what we call fruits. Carrots... ah, forget it. Doc talk 13:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Carrots are root vegetables. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure tomatoes actually are, for legal purposes, vegetables, not fruit. (Ketchup, on the other hand...) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Checking the ingredients of Ketchup, I could argue that Ketchup is even more of a vegetable than a plain tomato is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind that newborn humans are called "fruit of the womb" (not to be confused with newborn underwear called "Fruit of the Loom".) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who would put Fruit of the Loom on a newborn deserves the consequences. Ntsimp (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Not underwear on newborns, but newborn underwear, i.e. hot-off-the-loom. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting such a classification was possible. Ketchup as a vegetable doesn't suggest that ketchup is a vegetable—it just covers the moronic USDA proposal in the 1980s that would have classified it as such in school lunches, and the subsequent reaction. A pizza article could do likewise. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No argument. Thread's... dead. "Grape-Nuts contain neither grapes nor nuts. Discuss." Doc talk 09:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

How about the carton of eggs whose label declares: "May Contain Eggs"? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Or the bag of peanuts that said "Peanuts" on the front, and "Warning, contains peanuts" on the back. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

At least they admit there's no doubt! - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I can't find reliable refs for this at the moment, but it would appear that The Colbert Report will soon be running a story about how the consumption of pizza by Wikipedians has tripled over the past 24 hours.--Shirt58 (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Hurricanefan25/Pizza as a vegetable for AfD DYK... HurricaneFan25 15:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Threat against head of state

I just noticed an edit that included a death threat against a sitting head-of-state, made from an IP address within that country. Personally, I don't think it's credible, but there it is. I seriously wonder what that editor was thinking, though, given reports from HRW et al concerning that particular country. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The prime-minister is not the head of state, but whatever. Just revert and ignore.--Atlan (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Another editor had blocked the IP in the meantime (well, I could have done that...). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:VIOLENCE, which indicates that blocking the editor, and reporting them to the Foundation, is generally the preferable way to deal with such cases. John Carter (talk) 01:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

98.100.197.206 (talk · contribs)

This IP has a long history of vandalism (iover three years). It seems like it's obviously a school IP but a whois doesn't show that it is. They've never been blocked as they usually vandalize with one to three edits then stop for about a week, making a block quite useless. Is there a common practice when dealing with such IPs? OlYeller21 20:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Given the low volume I think just reverting and moving on is easier than giving it a second thought. causa sui (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this sort of stuff ok?

I mean this . He's talking about me. (P.s. No, you're not dreaming, its a Direktor thread containing less than 1,000 words :)) --DIREKTOR 20:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I smell Kohs. Alexandria (chew out) 21:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I concure. It has a certain Kohs-ish odor. Especially the promotion of MyWikiBiz. --Jayron32 01:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Having found the MyWikiBiz page and referencing it doesn't mean they're Kohs. A SPI case would be helpful. If it's not Kohs they're pushing buttons and limits around ARBMAC but not clearly over the line, and it doesn't reach my duck test threshold on Kohs at the moment. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, why on earth can he even link to mywikibiz? Is it not on the spam blacklist?? Bobby Tables (talk) 14:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I can't imagine what kind of person would associate himself in any way, even indirectly, with a banned user. Misplaced Pages needs some kind of loyalty test to make sure we're all on the same team..67.168.135.107 (talk) 04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Alas, some banned users have people flock to their banner to take up the trollhammer... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Kohs or not, can we get back to the original topic? An editor left comments of the following form on two other editors' talk pages: "read about political agenda of user who is well known for his blatant propaganda! What to do?"

What to do indeed.

• Is this behaviour acceptable? If it is, I have a few pieces to write about other editors. They will be in much better taste than the Kohs hackpiece and will only slightly go beyond what is allowed on-wiki, but they will be of a type that I would not want to see in my user space. Once written, I can then notify other editors individually about the off-wiki links.
• Can these comments stay on the user pages? Or maybe they should even be revision deleted?
• Should User:Daneto be warned not to do this again? Sanctioned? Hans Adler 08:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• No, the comments are not ok, and I hope this discussion quickly establishes that a final warning (at a minimum) is appropriate, and that the comments should be revision deleted. Johnuniq (talk) 09:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Robert Friedland white-washing

Someone calling themselves User:GlobalMM has been white-washing the biography of Robert Friedland. Freidland seems a modest guy, he calls his company Galactic Resources Ltd, so I can't think who would choose a username of GlobalMM... Anyway, the work of GlobalMM has made the article look like the shiniest CV of the greatest guy in the world.. Any mention of his ethical lapses - http://www.newint.org/columns/worldbeaters/2006/08/01/ - seems to be missing. Worth watching. - Leroule (talk) 20:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a resume. Why not revert the changes? causa sui (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I added a template and discussion about how the lead section should include a summary of the article's negative points. Right now it has only positive material. Binksternet (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Stephfo, disruptive editing after unblock

Stephfo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked Sept 3rd for disruptive editing, but was unblocked late October after agreeing to work with a mentor on his talk page. This week, his problems have resumed, and he's been contacted by a slew of editors requesting that he work more productively. I notified his mentor when the problems began, and his mentor has been contributing actively to Stephfo's talk page, but to no avail. Recently, he's begun edit warring, making personal attacks, and slinging accusations of disruption and vandalism at other editors. I, his mentor, and other editors have requested that he stop editing until he can resolve these problems. He responded that he wasn't interested, and planned to continue editing anyway.

Please review his talk page for a small sampling of the issues. I'm afraid that, either due to competence, tendentiousness, or intentions, he's unable to contribute productively to the project, and is only serving as a disruption to the community. I feel that he may need to be reblocked.

Prior to bringing this issue here, I made my intentions clear, and asked him to reconsider, but instead of responding to me, he continued editing and then (presumably) logged off. For context, here's a previous ANI case, but most of his history is contained on his talk page (some of which has been deleted). I can provide more diffs if necessary. Notified Stephfo, Alpha Quadrant, Amatulic, and Dominus Vobisdu. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, I believe the issue is due to the fact that he currently doesn't have a good grasp on several Misplaced Pages policies (in particular WP:IRS, WP:NPOV, WP:VANDNOT, and WP:NPA#WHATIS). Part of the problem is due to the fact that he appears to have a strong opinion regarding religion, creation, and evolution topics, resulting in further difficulty in remaining neutral when writing in these areas. Eventually, he may make good contributions in the area. I believe he needs to edit in other less controversial areas, where he can gain editing experience. I suggested he do this, but he continued to edit the in the topic. Before he is indefinitely blocked again, perhaps we could just try a six month topic ban from the areas of religion and creation/evolution. After that time period, he should have gained enough experience in editing and would have a better grasp on Misplaced Pages policies. Alpha_Quadrant 21:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

My concern here is that he has previously said he will not do X or Y, and then has done X or Y. I am not sure that just a topic ban will do the trick. I may just be cynical, but, that is my opinion. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

(Stephfo has never specified gender, and for that matter neither have I for myself. For some reason I have always thought of Stephfo as "she" but I'll use "he" established by precedent in this section unless Stephfo feels the need to correct it.)

I was one of several admins who declined one of Stephfo's frequent unblock requests back when Stephfo was indef-blocked. I also supported Stephfo's unblocking.

Since then, Stephfo has made the mistake of creating disputes in controversial areas, activity which resulted in blocking in the past. For the most part (except for in Christian terrorism), Stephfo has adhered to the spirit of WP:BRD, in that he actively uses talk page to challenge reverts. Unfortunately, Stephfo's conduct on talk pages, while civil and polite, borders on tendentious, causing the patience of others to wear thin. Whether deliberately or through misunderstanding, Stepho has given the appearance of ignoring explanations, demanding clarification for answers that have been given repeatedly, as well as some amount of Wikilawyering.

There's a battleground mentality evident here, where Stephfo sees atheism or anti-Christian bias everywhere, and feels that it is proper to "correct" this, not by attempting to re-write anything neutrally, but to introduce opposing bias, regardless of whether that bias is non-neutral, relies on fringe theories, misrepresents sources, or otherwise quotes sources out of context.

I think Stephfo can become a good contributor to Misplaced Pages. Re-enacting the prior indefinite block would be a mistake. At this point, however, I support the view of Stepho's mentor (Alpha Quadrant) above for a temporary topic ban of areas in which Stephfo evidently has a conflict of interest, namely articles with topics that would be controversial to fundamentalist Christians (creationism, evolution, articles critical of Christianity, and so forth). ~Amatulić (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Part of the problem I see is that the editor plainly doesn't have the English as a first language, but unfortunately has taken it as a personal attack that someone asked them about it. A good deal of the disputes seem to centre around not understanding what others are saying, and their own communications are not that great either. We could try a topic ban for a month - tell them to edit anywhere from architecture to zoology, but avoid creationism and intelligent design. I don't want to stop them creating articles - the notability hurdle seems to have eventually been got over, and they can always just use a sandbox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) 00:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with everything said so far. His contributions to Busch and Hartnett were good ones (even if one doesn't quite meet WP:N), and I'd hate to see those sorts of contribs go, sparse as they are. On the other hand, he has a major problem communicating which is divorced from the topic area, and which seems unlikely to ever be fixed. Whether it stems from a language barrier or (more likely) competence, Stephfo has consistently shown that he simply cannot work with other editors on even the most basic of tasks. That's a problem for a collaborative project. Frankly, I would rather see him topic banned until he gains an understanding of policy (or indefinitely if coming back is too problematic) but after all we've been through, I simply cannot fathom any possible resolution than an eventual block; if topic banned, I fully anticipate these same issues will turn up everywhere he interacts with another user, and we'll be back here in no time at all. I mean, look at the "Big Bang" dispute he had with Farsight. Farsight's explanation couldn't have been clearer, but Stephfo drove him off in frustration, demanding he clarify every minor detail. His primary contribution in any topic is to frustrate and drive off productive users everywhere he goes. That's not a negligible issue.

Maybe I'm wrong. The issue may be a language barrier, exacerbated by a strong opinion on the topic, and perhaps with extensive mentoring on a neutral area, he'll improve. Perhaps a topic ban is worth a shot. However, if we go with a topic ban, it needs to be broad ("religion, science, and controversial topics"), and there needs to be an understanding that 1) his behavior thus far has been inappropriate, and 2) if it continues on other topics, he will be blocked. I have reservations on even this, since Stephfo does not yet have an understanding there even is a problem, much less what that problem is, so I can't imagine how he's going to change, but if users are willing to work with him to improve, then perhaps we can salvage a few of his positive contributions.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I can read Stephfo's native language (not perfect, but well enough to follow a discussion), and the problem has nothing to do with a language barrier. Misplaced Pages's problems with Stephfo predate his appearence on English WP. Before he came to English WP, he had been an editor on Slovakian WP as "Steffo" since April 25, 2011. (No outing here; Stephfo clearly identifies himself as Steffo ]). He edits mainly articles related to creationism, and quickly gained a reputation there for being a POV warrior. He has been repeated warned by multiple co-editors that "Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum. It's not for making statements either of your political, religious or other views", and that his edits were disruptive ] ].

Stephfo's debut here on English WP involved expanding a stub that he wanted to use in a discussion on Slovakian WP. He was discovered, and the article was deleted. A copy of it and it's history remain on his user page: ].

After that, he focused his attention on English WP, especially on the article on Intelligent Design, where his disruptive behavior led to a couple of blocks before he was eventually indefinitely blocked. As one of the main editors that dealt with Stephfo at that time, I can assure you that the experience was unpleasant to the extreme. He inserted highly POV material that was essentially OR and SYNTH based on unreliable sources, and when challenged, adopted a battlefield attitude that included abundant accusations of bad faith on the part of other editors. He engaged in interminable deadhorse arguments, ignoring the responses of other editors and repeatedly demanding answers to questions that had already been answered several times, or that were completely irrelvant to the topic.

Both content-wise and behavior-wise, his editing was vastly at odds with WP policies. He ignored repeated instructions to familiarize himself with WP policies, using them solely as a source of cherry-picked quotes taken out of context to support his own POV and behavior. He never demonstrated any interest in building consensus, and consistently treated anyone that disagreed with him as an enemy that was out to get him. He wasted huge amounts of his fellow editors' time in pointless deadhorse arguments and Wikilawyering. This is what led to his eventual indefinite block.

Stephfo appealed his blocks several times, during which he demonstrated that he did not understand why he was blocked, and placing the blame on other editors. Eventually, a sympathetic editor told him to find a mentor, and having done so, successfully appealed the block with their help.

After his return, Stephfo took his mentor's advice and avoided controversial topics like creationism for EXACTLY one month before returning to the article on Intelligent Design and resuming his previous disruptive behavior. In the discussion about a change he had made and was reverted, Stephfo wrote an astounding 31 posts in only 10 hours, which demonstrates that he barely took the time to read the responses of other editors, never mind to understand them. He repeatedly demanded answers to questions which had already been explained in great detail, and his posts and edit summaries demonstrated that he holds his fellow editors in very low regard, repeatedly calling their contributions vandalism, weird, odd, or just plain dishonest.

I've only peripherally participated in that discussion, but have been dealing with Stephfo on an AfD of one of his creationism-related articles. While his behavior there has been somewhat more civil, there still have been multiple accusations of bad faith as well as Wikilawyering. The most important thing, though, is that it is patently obvious that he does not yet understand what Misplaced Pages is about, and what the policies mean. Not even the core policies. And I have to conclude that he has absolutely no intention to ever educate himself in this matter.

He has ignored all warnings to cease his disruptive behavior, even those of his mentor. When it seemed that he had calmed down an tacitly agreed to stay away from the Intelligent Design article, he moved on to another highly controversial article on Christian Terrorism, where he is contnuing his POV warring.

I'm sorry, but unlike Amantulic and his mentor, Alpha Quadrant, I see no hope for Stephfo ever being a constructive editor here on WP. He is by nature first and foremost a contentious POV warrior, and he has come to WP in order to pursue his own agenda. Stephfo has amply demonstrated that he is a leopard that will not, and cannot, change his spots.

I believe the reasons he gave in his last block appeal and his month-long period of "good behavior" were not sincere, especially considering that that period of good behavior lasted EXACTLY one month. His behavior indicates that his agenda is fundamentally not comaptible with Misplaced Pages's mission, and that he has no intention of complying with WP policies. Most of all, there has been no improvement since before his block, and no sign that he intends to improve except for self-serving reasons.

I therefore recommend that he be indefinetely blocked. I would strongly object to only a topic ban, but if one is decided upon, it must include all religion-related topics, including atheism, creationism and all areas of science relating to creationism, including biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, very broadly construed. And it should be indefinite. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You agree that the problem is that he cannot maintain a neutral point of view on this topic. If a topic ban were imposed, would that not solve the problem? As you have said, Stephfo had a productive period of editing while away from this topic. Indefinitely blocking him therefore seems a bit premature. At this point, I believe a temporary topic ban may be imposed, if anything is done about this. I don't believe that we should rule out the possibility that that as he gains experience, he could learn to edit this topic area neutrally. If after the topic ban is lifted, and he goes back to the same behavior, it could always be extended to indefinite. If after the time period he does fine in the area, then we won't need to do anything. Alpha_Quadrant 01:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Alpha, but, as I said, I don't believe in the sincerity of Stephfo's one month of good behavior. I believe that during that period, he was just biding his time and itching to get back to POV warring. That is why a temporary topic ban simply will not work. The second the ban expires, Stephfo will undoubtedly resume his bad behavior. Stephfo is here on a mission, and that mission is fundamentally at odds with everything that WP strives to be. There is just no place for Stephfo in a collaborative project like WP in my view. He is far too hot-headed, rash, hasty and hostile to work with others. Even if we topic-ban him, he is eventually going to get into a dispute with other editors on non-controversial topics, and he will behave then as he has had on controversial topics. Frankly, we have spent a lot too much time indulging him and giving him second, third and fourth chances, and now you want to give him a fifth? Even after he has ignored your advice as his mentor? There is no point in chasing good money after bad anymore. Sorry, but I don't see any baby in the bathwater. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I am afraid that I have to agree with DV. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've seen editors with far worse behavior, who received much lighter sanctions; WikiManOne/BelloWello comes to mind. Alpha Quandrant, Stephfo's mentor, has been working with him and can best appraise the situation. If Alpha has that much faith in Stephfo--it's good enough for me. It's occasions like these where we need to trust in the mentorship system: it's here for a reason. – Lionel 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Mentoring works only with editors that are able to restrain themselves and consult with their mentors before making any rash moves, and then to accept the advice they receive. Stephfo is either incapable, unwilling, or both. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Stephfo is currently ignoring his mentor's advice. I don't know how a mentor is going to help when he's being ignored.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

I propose a topic ban on Christian and science related articles, broadly construed, for a period of 6 months. During this 6 months Stephfo is expected to work closely with their mentor so that the same behavior does not repeat when the ban is over. If the behavior resumes after a period of six months or if the behavior continues into other topics, then ban extensions and blocks are expected, respectively.

• Support as proposer. I share Dom's characterization above after being involved with the original editing disputes that got Stephfo blocked in the first place. Without a doubt, I have never personally dealt with a more tendentious or disruptive editor. I assume good faith on their part, in that I believe that they believe they are helping the encyclopedia, but results are results and the results are that this editor cannot seem to grasp nuanced WP policy or how editors are expected to interact. However, we have reason to believe that this editor can function in less controversial areas and so I believe that a block is unnecessary until proven otherwise. If s/he begins to act the same elsewhere then we'll know that it isn't limited to these articles, but in the meantime it's worth a shot. Nformation 18:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support, as a last chance to avoid being re-blocked. The emotions surrounding these articles make it all the more difficult for a new editor to get to know wikipedia policy. This will also allow the rest of the community to fully ascertain whether or not Stephfo is really interested in productive editing. eldamorie (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

POV pushing on article Spartacus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hi all, despite all the reasoning on the talk page the user User:ian.thomson has persisted in changing the WP:Style of the article Spartacus from BC/AD to BCE/CE.The article was created in 2001, and for the last ten years, with the exception of edit wars, the article has been BC/AD. User:Ian.thomson has been at the forefront of these edits and has put the message (see below) every time he has made this date change.

<!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->

Point 1: other users have explained to him that this is NOT a valid reason to change the dating system. Even if BCE were to be used, Spartacus not being a christian has absolutely no influence in the matter at all.

Point 2: Ian.Thomson has also used the argument. "You're being ridiculous. The earliest version that we can find is a change from BCE. We can see that. That is all "BCE -> BC" can mean and it is only insanity or some other mental deficiency to deny that. We cannot find any earlier version. Ergo, the earliest version, for all intents and purposes, is BCE. Period"

and "Actually, the oldest oldest material was lost in the transition from Nupedia to a Wiki format, which is why we end up with this curious diff featuring an edit by an apparently time travelling conversion script bot. The first edit saved summary indicates that the article was changed from BCE to BC. There would be no reason to do that if there was no older version, it would actually be ridiculous to do so. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)"

I have at length tried to explain to him that judgement on something that you cannot see (i.e Nupedia) or have evidence for is not valid at Misplaced Pages. The first available source for the article is here and is clearly NOT BCE, also being called insane is not pleasant either. This edit war has being going on for the last 6 months or so with no decisive action being taken.

Additionally, there was no consensus on the talkpage] and so no change to BCE/CE is merited. Please read the recent disscussion of the BCE/CE problem here. All the arguments are laid out in full.

If you require any more information please let me know. I shall notify all those involved, thank you. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so concerned about it? What POV are YOU trying to push? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The earliest version that can be found is a switch from BCE to BC, thus the earliest version is BCE. I am not the only editor to restore it to BCE, and I am not the first, that has been shown on the talk page, you are lying when you say I'm at the forefront of all those edits.

How else can "BCE -> BC" be read? You have failed to answer that in any sane or thoughful way. That is the edit summary for the earliest stored version, hence the earliest version that we can see is really BCE. You'll find that I leave a number of other articles alone, so your accusation of me being the POV-pusher here is false. That, combined with your misrepresentation of my claims and edits here, along with calling good-faith edits vandalism, and making an ad hominem attack by comparing those reverting to BCE with Obama birther conspiracy theorists, really show that you're the POV-pusher here. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me Baseball bugs, but shouldn't you be saying that to the person who made the changes and not the person who is reverting them? Please read the arguments. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Could it be that you're wrong? Ian.thomson (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring is no fun for anyone, so I bothered to write this out here. If you can suggest a better option other than letting people change the dating system surreptitiously, then I'm all ears. Wrong about what? the first version is clearly BC, as is made clear on the talk page, and there was no agreement for change. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The earliest existing history entry, from 10 years ago, indicates someone changing from BCE to BC for no stated reason. That editor is still active. Maybe you should invite him here? Although he might not remember all the details from a week after 9/11/01. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The IP has reverted 7 times in the last day and a half or so. Should he be blocked, or should the article be semi'd? Or both? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

EXcuse me, but you've not even given an argument here. I bothered to write all this out and you just dismiss it. nice democracy you hve here. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Make that EIGHT reverts in the last day and a half now. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

EXcuse me, but you've not even given an argument here. I bothered to write all this out and you just dismiss it. nice democracy you hve here. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and 4 for Ian. I'm sure you're well aware that if something has been the norm for a significant period of time, as stated in the WP:Style manual, that there is no reason to change it. Also, you've failed to adress this "<!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->". THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT for or against BCE. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)To the edit-warring, POV-pushing IP: The first version is not BC, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that it is not BC, you are coming across as a useless editor refusing to get the point, either because you're a troll or you're just honestly incompetent. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

To Bugs: Both a block and a protect sound nice.

Re number of reverts: I've only had 1 in the past 24 hours, and 3 in the previous 24 hour cycle.

Re no reason for change: yes, that's why it should stay BCE. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The best evidence we have is that it was originally BCE. I've asked for the article to be protected. I recommend no more reverts, from either side, until the admins take some action. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If you'd just said that in the first place we wouldn't have had all this bickering. Thats why I brought the issue here, for a proper opinion. until last year the article was happily bc, if you wanna mess with that for your own reasons, fine. I've had enough. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The page is now semi'd, and I've asked that you be suspended for edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Ian has just made his 5th revert. He already has a ban for edit warring. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

He doesn't have any "ban", though he had a short block this past February. I've asked the original editor (Zundark (talk · contribs)) to come here and explain his actions from 10 years ago, changing BCE to BC, while realizing that he might not remember it all that well. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"<!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->" <--- that should be renmoved. you added it, take it away. It is not an argument. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

WEll thank you for your efforts anyway. It was my opinion that (Zundark (talk · contribs)) was reverting a change in the first place, as 99 percent of articles written in 2001 used BC by default for which I got it in the neck. BCE has only become popular in some communities in the last 4 years, despite its existence for of a century.94.194.34.10 (talk) 01:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You have no evidence that he was reverting a previous change. It is hypocritical to say that I can't call on the edit summary as evidence that the earlier version was BCE, but to completely make up an older version with BC. As for the note, I'm not removing it: you do it sometime this week :P Ian.thomson (talk) 01:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

All we know is that the first record in the history indicates a change from BCE to BC. BCE and CE have been in wide usage for quite some time, although some may not have gotten the message. As to what happened in 2001, I think only the user Zundark can answer that question. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• I would have blocked the IP for 3RR, but EdJohnston has semi'd the page, so there's no point at the moment. Leaving him unblocked to discuss on the talkpage. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The IP refuses to get the point, though. It has been explained over and over and over that the earliest version we can see is BCE, but that only reasonable assumption is dismissed as imagining an article which doesn't exist while he sees it perfectly fine to imagine that the article a few revisions prior was BC. Even when other editors have explained this, he refuses to get the point. This IP editor is only tendentious, and that's assuming good faith, if not competence. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I AM SPARTACUS! Er, I mean, why are we having a content argument on ANI?--Tznkai (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Because the IP came here to complain about the content. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Why did I take it to ANI? Because I thought that's where it should have been taken. However, how can I discuss something when no one gives a counter argument to my complaint. Ian, is being obnoxious and I find myself taking it personally. Not once have I made a personal attack at him, and I've been on the receiving end of a few. I'm not the most experienced editor for sure, but he just rams wikipedia policy down my throat by citing WP:this or WP:that, and having read them myself i see that he's not adhering to them either. For instance here "The site-wide consensus is not to use BC/AD22:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)". That's plain wrong. and his argument that Spartacus wasn't christian thus BCE should be used, that's plain wrong as well. Please someone tell me otherwise (not you ian, you've made your point very clear). He's as much aPOV to use BCE as I have to preserving what was already there. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

News just in lol. "Comment Per WP:COMMONNAME it really ought to be BC 1650 hits for BCE 71600 for BC User:Darkness Shines (talk) 01:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)" evidence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.34.10 (talk)

Darkness Shines (talk · contribs)
94.194.34.10 (talk · contribs)

Hey, thanks for tipping us off to your normal login ID. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Obvious sock is obvious sock. WP:COMMONNAME is a completely unrelated policy for article titles. It has nothing to do with dates. Per the already established policies and guidelines for dating formats, we use the earliest version unless there is a discussed consensus for change. No discussion occured. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You can request a checkuser but I don't think so with this one.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 02:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The checkuser would likely turn it down because it's as obvious as the nose on his face. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

A previously uninvolved editor also from Britain conveniently comes in and makes illogical arguments for BC... Seems likely to me. Still, I'm going to wait to see if Darkness Shines does something before filing a SPI. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Huh? what are you guys on about? This is on the ANI board, Britain has 65 million people in it. I'm sure it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone stumbles across this post and adds his tuppence worth. By all means ask him if he's me, but lmao I don't think he is. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 02:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, but those 65 million people aren't trying to disguise their identity at Misplaced Pages by editing from multiple accounts and IP addresses. --Jayron32 04:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Can we just hang on a little bit here. Whilst multiple reverts and sockpuppeting is obviously not a good thing, the IP may actually have a point. It is not clear what the earliest version of the article used - the earliest version here indicates a change but it could easily have been reverting a change from BC to BCE. We simply do not know. What we do know is that from 2001 to 2009 it was BC. After that it has seesawed back and forth a bit, but has generally been in BC. Ian.thomson added a statement here which seems to be completely false (it had not been BCE for a long time, the opposite in fact). Now, rather than coming to a consensus (which clearly does not yet exist at the talkpage) they chose to revert. The IPs initial edit summary seems perfectly sound. Polequant (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This looks like a good application for a targeted RfC. The original version is lost in the dust of history, so our normal rules are of limited use. So lets just try to establish a new consensus one way or the other. This topic has been discussed sufficiently all over Misplaced Pages to know that convincing a significant fraction of either faction via further argument is unlikely. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've been asked to explain the rationale for an edit I made more than ten years ago. Well, that's a long time ago, but the edit was no doubt done for clarity: BCE and CE are not very widely understood in the UK (and were perhaps even less so back then), whereas BC and AD are almost universally understood, and therefore preferable. There was no manual of style back then, so we just did whatever we thought best (unless Larry disagreed with it).

As for the question of what the article originally used, I have no idea. I looked on archive.org to see if they have anything earlier, but the earliest they have is 1 March 2002. --Zundark (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

SO if we're finished calling people ducks, shall we discuss this, or are we going to be rude to other users defending the article as well? The article has used BC for most of those ten years, the original is no longer valid anyway, you all know that if a style has been in use for a long period of time it cannot be reverted willy nilly. gave this reasons for SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! which is simply mad, and it's Pot calling the kettle black to say I have issues if he's using this as a reason to change it. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 12:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of "ducks", when are you going to quit ducking the question of why you're so hung up on this minor matter? Zundark at least has a logical explanation for why he changed it. All I've heard from others is that BCE/CE are somehow "political" - as if BC/AD aren't. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems clear that the earliest known version of the article used BCE/CE, and that Zundark didn't revert to some even earlier version that used BC/AD, but rather made a good faith change to BC/AD because he perceived this would be clearer to UK readers. This is a tempest in a teapot. It is justifiable to revert back to the format used originally, there should be no controversy over this. Personally I'd have blocked both editors for warring (you don't need to exceed 3 reverts in 24 hours to be edit warring if it's clear you're edit warring), but that is not necessary now. ~Amatulić (talk) 13:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This has rapidly escalated into a content dispute, which are not held here. It is not ANI's role to determine WP:CONSENSUS here. Both Ian and the IP have been a little aggressive here. We have had tit-for-tat filings. Push comes to shove, someone was WP:BOLD, someone else WP:REVERTED, now you discuss and look for where a) consensus was formed earlier, or b) use WP:3O, WP:DR or some other method to determine a new consensus. Pointe finale (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It's been nothing more than a content dispute from the moment the IP posted his complaint here. Recommend you box this up, and let the discussion be confined to the article talk page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

And especially now that the OP has been blocked for using several socks to push what appears to be a personal agenda. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Beatles songs

95.29.146.1 (talk · contribs) and 95.29.146.240 (talk · contribs) and 128.68.192.41 (talk · contribs) and maybe others are starting to post links to a site which has recordings of Beatles songs. That seems to me like a copyright violation. What say y'all? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That sounds very familiar. . Quack quack. bobrayner (talk) 01:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep. I'm thinking the simplest solution might be to get the URL blacklisted, but I don't know how to request that. Maybe a passing admin could take care of it here? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

They're being smarter this time and using archive.org backlinks. Can't blacklist that, we use that for dead sources in many articles. Tarc (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The fallback step, then, would be to semi the articles. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• I highly recommend to revise this topic and block "Corbina" ranges; it's a long-term story in ruwiki and enwiki;it's a very persistent person... OneLittleMouse (talk) 02:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • He did it again: 176.15.148.251. Is there any abuse e-mail etc. on www.archive.org ? It seems to be useful to write a letter about this collection (but for me with {{babel|en-1}} it will be not easy...) OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
    • From archive.org's FAQ: "To report an item which violates the Internet Archive's Terms of Use, please send an email with the URL (web address) of the item to info -at- archive.org ". Part of the Terms of Use state, "In particular, you certify that your use of any part of the Archive's Collections will be noncommercial and will be limited to noninfringing or fair use under copyright law." --NellieBly (talk) 05:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• And again, now with WP:NPA violations... OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • There's a obvious language barrier here, as from what I can gather from the past discussions, this person fully believes he has a legal right to stream Beatles songs from his website. No amount of discussion seems to dissuade that notion. Tarc (talk) 05:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Discussions about Beatles, copyright and WP:C also took place in ruwiki (here and other) and, as far as i know, on Creative Commons wiki, but this person seems to be WP:NOTLISTENING. OneLittleMouse (talk) 06:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• If everyone's okay with it, I'll e-mail archive.org with the list of files these IPs have been trying to upload. --NellieBly (talk) 05:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC) ETA: IP 2.93 has attempted to refactor other editors' comments on this noticeboard. --NellieBly (talk) 05:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • A kind soul reverted that; I blocked the IP moments before your post here. I wonder, is there any point in blocking the other IPs mentioned above? Either way, that's for someone else: it's late. Drmies (talk) 06:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Thanks, and thanks to the kind soul too. I really don't think this is a language problem but a philosophical difference; it appears that the IP editor doesn't understand how copyright works, or as said otherwise doesn't believe that it matters. I'm going to propose semi-protection for the affected articles given the determination of the editor and the number of ranges he's using. I know nothing about rangeblocks (not sure even what they are), so I'll leave it to someone else to determine if a rangeblock would be useful. --NellieBly (talk) 06:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Have you attempted to contact the ISP to tell them that someone is violating copyright? Or perhaps you could contact Apple Records (or Paul, Ringo, Olivia, Dhani, and Yoko) and tell them someone is violating their copyright?—Ryulong (竜龙) 06:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

My intent is not to police copyright for Apple Corps but to prevent blatant copyright infringements from being linked to on Misplaced Pages. As a user of archive.org I'm also personally interested in ensuring that their terms of service are adhered to. I'm sorry if I did something wrong; please let me know if there was a better way to handle this. I'm not sure how to contact the user's ISP. --NellieBly (talk) 06:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No, you're doing just fine. I wouldn't want to police that kind of thing either. A range block (see WP:RANGE) is an option in such cases, but I'm not smart enough to see from the IPs offered here if that would be helpful in relation to the collateral damage. Semi-protection, in the case of determined serial vandals, is often the last resort, at least until the geeks come by and invent some clever filter--but I don't know if that's feasible here. Until then, we're whacking moles. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

And thusly, yet another case for Sign In To Edit is made. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

As one of the editors who attempted to show the user why they were wrong, why they couldn't remove other people's comments that were not-supportave of their position (WP:TPG), and why their selective parsing of information volunteers have given them was not helping their case. I was threatened with "violations United Nations Civil Rights" multiple times when they tried to buttress their position. Hasteur (talk) 17:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Daicaregos & GoodDay

• Daicaregos (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)
• GoodDay (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

On the 19th Daicaregos left a message for me asking whether I saw user:GoodDay's editing on biographies as waranting a block. I don't see it that way and recomended dispute resolution or here or ArbCom. Now while I agree that GD has (and I've crticized GD for having) a less than perfect atitude to others and a sometimes counterproductive last wordiness I don't see him acting in bad faith (and neither of these matters are blockable anyway). Let me underline here that I'm not defending or condemning GD's actions - I see this as a content dispute & using the block button would be inappropiate (see full discussion here.
A day after I refused to block GD, Daicaregos made this post to WP:WikiProject Ireland which is a gross misinterpretation of my post here and of the situation itself where GD only went over the 1rr limit (he did not make "a second (or a third, fourth etc.) revert within 24 hours" as Dai is suggesting I said see these diffs revert breach self-revert). This an attempt to attack me and is beng undertaken because I didn't block on demand.
There is a long running and obviously personally issue btwn Dai and GD but Dai's last post is unacceptable and demonstrates a serious battle ground mindset. I'd be happy with the post simply being striken but this wider issue (the interaction btwn GD & Daicaregos) needs eyes on it & needs de-escalation--Cailil 02:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

One could argue that Daicaregos' post calls for a warning that WP:Discretionary sanctions will be imposed next time Dai makes a disruptive post like that. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it was a mistake, and he should be given a chance to withdraw it. He is a very good record on content and article creation compared with GoodDay who would try the patience of a saint. He went OTT in his response and frustration but I think Cailil is right, that conflict needs more eyes on it. When good editors get into that mindset the community needs to work with them if possible. --Snowded 10:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree Snowded hence I'd be happy if it were striken, but Sarek is also right - Dai needs to realize that continuing in this vein is a cul de sac--Cailil 13:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

He is taking a wikibreak Cailil, I talked with him off line. He has had enough of the drama and he won't be the first good content editor to do that. --Snowded 20:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've popped out of retirement for a short while to enable me to come here and make a point. Cailil, do you remember this conversation on your talk page.

:"Also, upon reflection, I wish to point out that Carson's assumptions about why I made the edits I did at the British boxing articles, are accurate. I was infuriated by the current results of discussion about the UK intro & second paragraphs & thus 'in a fit of anger', moved onto the British boxing articles - looking for a fight. Therefore, due to my inability to control my temper around these topics, I request that I be restricted from such articles - except for on my own talkpage". GoodDay (talk) 22:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

::"Ok GD well if you feel you can't control yourself in this area stay away from it. I wont be placing a restriction (topic ban) on you by request, as that would be as inappropriate as blocking on request (see WP:BLOCK). Also if you see that your edits in an area are problematic and are willing to stay away such a sanction is rendered moot. Therefore I will ask you to agree to stay away from this area ("disengage") for as long as you feel necessary until you can control yourself. I would suggest 3 months of a holiday from the area. However, if you make another series of edits "looking for a fight" anywhere I or an another sysop will be forced to take action to prevent disruption to the project"--Cailil 19:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

You see there that you have warned GoodDay that if he ever again looks for a fight you or another sysop will take action to prevent his disruption. Over the last few days you were shown GoodDay doing just that. Apart from the diffs that Dai showed you of his disruptive actions I should you this diff were I quote a line from the Scottish poet Robert Burns to GoodDay. Myself and GoodDay are certainly not on the best of terms but even then, I was a little surprised that he would go straight to the Robert Burns article and make his pov change to it. That was definately a dig at me and not something he would have thought of if I hadn't mentioned Burns poem. He was for sure trying to wind me up and perhaps start a "fight" as he would put it. What most surprises me is that after issuing him a warning for picking fights you could not see the same thing happening again. Remember, for a good while he denied picking a fight with Dai until his eventual confession you see above. Carson101 (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That's an OTT breach of AGF on your part, Carson. Do you have proof, that I was "looking for a fight" with you, making a "dig" at you & trying to "wind" you up? Also, what's with the cloak & dagger method? You come out of retirement to attack me & then retire again. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:DUCK does come into play eventually GoodDay. As per AGF you only need to assume good faith until you have been shown otherwise, and I think everyone has been shown time and again that you go around just to start trouble. You have quite the reputation of doing it so I think AGF has pretty much flown out the window at this point. -DJSasso (talk) 20:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You're biased in these discussons, per our disagreements on usage of diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Hate Filled Personal Attacks by Anon IP

190.45.54.212 (talk · contribs)190.46.95.25 (talk · contribs)
Pretty obvious hate filled personal attacks coming from the above ips. Appears to have an interest in World War II articles among others. Recommend immediate blocks and monitoring. Obvious troll, cursing and swearing at other users . -OberRanks (talk) 04:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Blocked him for 31 hours. If this continues at other IP addresses, report those as well. --Jayron32 04:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

95.25 does not appear to be blocked yet. -OberRanks (talk) 04:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I only blocked the active IP. There's no need to block an IP which isn't editing anymore. --Jayron32 04:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Well, there is a problem here. One can say that the IP has been edit-warring, but it takes two to edit-war--or more, if there's tag-teaming. Kierzek's edit summary here, which I reckon is the first revert, accuses the IP of vandalism, and there is no justification for that: the IP made three edits, all explained in a summary, and all of them (in my opinion) improved the article. So they get reverted again and again, without explanation, and then break out the FUs. Well, they shouldn't, but neither should they have been treated like shit.

  Jayron, is the IP blocked for vandalism, for edit-warring, or for incivility? Do you think their actual edit was vandalism? And if not, is Kierzek reprimanded for a phony accusation of vandalism, which arguably led to this? Drmies (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The block was for personal attacks and gross incivility over a period of time. You could check the talk page of the most recent account, and the contribs of both, it is obvious this is not a noob, but someone with an intimate knowledge of Misplaced Pages's culture, policies, and behavioral guidelines. If you can make a case that you think this person is going to stop personally attacking other editors, feel free to make that case here, and then go ahead and unblock. If you have no reason to suspect his behavior will change if you unblock him right now, I would oppose undoing my block without consensus from other editors that it was incorrect. --Jayron32 04:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to go against you--the rant was unacceptable, yet understandable. I don't know this person and I'm not going to make a case that they won't do it again. I wanted to know what the precise reason for the block was, since OberRanks and Kierzek have not acted appropriately here, in my opinion. All the cussing (at least in relation to this article) came after unexplained reverts that claimed vandalism. Drmies (talk) 04:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The behavior of OberRanks and Kierzek is yet to be assessed by me, I have no opinion thereof. Saying This to another user is never understandable. Being frustrated is understandable. Saying "fuck you, you cunt" to another user is not. Ever. One can be frustrated without doing that. --Jayron32 04:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That's the extent of the message I left on the blocked IP's talk page. Thanks for clearing it up: good-faith edits followed by unjustified revert followed by some edit-warring leading to inexcusable cussing makes for a convoluted mess, and I just wanted to know what made you press the button. Thanks Jayron, Drmies (talk) 05:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• OberRanks, please look at this in context. This was the first edit: there is nothing trollish about it, unless by 'trolling' you mean 'attempting and probably succeeding in good faith to improve an article while explaining the edit in summary'. Drmies (talk) 04:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Reprimanding for a personal attack accusing someone of "trolling". Who's going to do it? Doc talk 04:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
    • (Signing off for the night after this) Any attempt at analyzing edits or reasoning with the ip address went out the window with this edit . I think a "revert on sight" is clearly warranted after that kind of a deep vicious personal attack against another user. It should also be noted that KZ approached the user I think at least twice with warnings about behavior, trying to reason. The purpose of those ips is clear - to cause trouble. Let's not feed the trolls any further. -OberRanks (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
      • This IP's rant is really quite understandable. And if you don't see the contradiction inherent in "approached the user with warnings"--well, then I have nothing more to say to you. As for this accusation of trolling, that's total bullshit: the diff I gave above is productive, and none of you even tried to talk to the IP or gave them the courtesy of even explaining what was wrong with the edit--well, I can understand that last part, since there was nothing wrong with their edit. Drmies (talk) 04:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
        • Throwing around unfounded accusations of trolling is unfortunate indeed and should be discouraged. Doc talk 04:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
          • I couldn't agree more; it's almost as bad as trolling. Drmies (talk) 05:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
            • Well, actual trolls... troll. They can't be stopped if that's all they want to do. But labeling someone a troll when they're really not one: I can see why you'd object to Ober's characterization. It all makes sense now... Doc talk 06:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a very long history of this particular editor getting into this same sort of conflict in different places. See the history of Ian Gow and Falklands War, for example. I've tried to help this editor -- see 200.104.120.204 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 190.163.3.204 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for some examples -- in particular User talk:190.163.3.204, and these two threads on my talk page: User_talk:Antandrus#Falklands_War, User_talk:Antandrus#Aggressive IP Editor. The pattern that happens again and again is this editor makes good edits, is reverted, often for no good reason, and explodes. Sometimes the reverts are reasonable; but not always. I'm quite certain this is the same person -- IP from Santiago, Chile, which changes every day or two. His comments are clearly abusive, but he's often treated badly; it's not entirely his fault. I would plead with people to make sure you give a reason for reverts -- particularly when the edits are clearly made in good faith. Antandrus (talk) 04:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Being treated badly by others is not entirely his fault. His reactions to it are, and calling people "cunt" is 100% his fault; no other person pressed the "c", "u", "n", and "t" keys for him, and no one else pressed the "save page" button when his personal attack was in the edit window. As I stated above, I can understand frustration. I will not condone his behavior in the place of frustration. We cannot remove his agency from his own actions, regardless of the antecedents to those actions. He freely chose to respond to that frustration as he did. Also as I said above, I have not reviewed the actions of any other editors here; if our IP friend was baited that may need to be dealt with seperately, but he will not be excused by me for his behavior regardless of what other misbehavior may (or may not) have been going on around him. --Jayron32 05:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Guys I was on my way out and checked the thread once more - I can see why perhaps KZ and I appear to have acted a bit too quickly reverting without discussing first; my apologies for that. After reviewing the threads of the two other ips, though, seemingly run by the same person, this is indicative of a much more serious problem. Whoever is running these ips has committed numerous personal attacks and incivility against several users across a wide variety of articles over an extended period of time after numerous warnings and blocks. In addition, as the person is not establishing a registered account, we have multiple edits from multiple accounts, leading into a possible WP:SOCK situation. To avoid getting into a WP:INVOLVED situation (even though I'm not an admin), I wont file any more complaints or charges since it might look like a vendetta. I will leave this in the hands of others, but this does appear to be a problem which needs to be dealt with. Good night. -OberRanks (talk) 05:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

As you noted, WP:INVOLVED is hardly an issue with non-admins. There's no vendetta either, for if they are disruptive then the disruption needs to stop. The IPs are all from Chile: that's something to go on. Keep digging... Doc talk 05:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Mass copyvio on Japanese fiction articles

• 67.191.47.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Having stumbled upon List of Ultraman Ace monsters, much of which appears to have been copied from http://www.freewebs.com/godzilla_2000/ and its sub-pages, I had a look through this IP's edits and it seems likely that pretty much all plot material this user has added to articles is copyvio. I've flagged a couple of the most obvious ones where all the content was from a single page, but it might be worth digging deeper.

As an aside, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if we had editors involved in editing articles in this genre who paid the slightest bit of attention to WP:WAF, or notability of fiction in general. List of Ultraman Leo monsters (one of this IP's deleted contribs), for instance, is a straight copyvio of this, and yet at its AfD nobody apparently bothered to check this and multiple editors who should know better were happy for the content to be kept. List of Ultraman Ace monsters was PRODded only to be declined by Jclemens (talk · contribs) without a rationale. I've notified the WikiProject which supposedly watches these articles along with active editors in the area I recognised from the AfD linked; please ping other parties who may be involved as well.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Nyttend has already removed the copyvio on List of Ultraman Ace monsters. There is a similar blatant copyvio on List of Return of Ultraman monsters which seems to come from here for example (2006). A prod was also refused by Jclemens in March 2011. Mathsci (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

To summarize the longer response on my talk page: Glad the copyvios were cleaned up; it would have happened much sooner if the nominators had used the most appropriate deletion process for copyvios, CSD G12. Jclemens (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The copyvios aren't cleaned up. As I say, it is likely that every edit by this IP is tainted in this manner. Furthermore, there's evidence to suggest that all of these problems are still live, as none of the editors subsequently touching these pages (save for the ones adding PRODs or AfD tags) have fixed the copyright problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Chris, are you sure he's copying from the Ultra fan site, not the other way round? If so, it looks like every Ultra edit he has made was copied from that site :( --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Even given that it would be deeply unusual for an external site to copy our content and improve it (taking an essentially raw text dump and reformatting it with images and statistics), this archived revision from January 2009 of the Ultraman Leo monsters page contains content which first appears verbatim in Misplaced Pages in December of that year. So that site couldn't have gotten it from here, and I'm disinclined to believe any of the other articles are any different. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Complete list

Complete list of edits made by this IP. All of these need checked.

• 1910 Dianna (talk)
• 1970 in film Dianna (talk)
• 1984 in film Dianna (talk)
• 1989 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1993 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1994 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1995 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1996 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1996 in film Dianna (talk)
• 1997 Dianna (talk)
• 1997 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1997 in film Dianna (talk)
• 1998 in American television Dianna (talk)
• 1999 in American television
• 2000 in American television
• 2001 in American television
• 2002 in American television
• 2003 in American television
• 2004 in American television
• 2005 in American television
• 2006 in television
• 2007 in television
• 2008 in American television
• 2010 in American television
• Aboras
• Alien Balbalu
• Alien Baltan
• Alien Empera ‎
• Alien Guts
• Alien Hipporit
• Alien Hook
• Alien Mephilas
• Alien Metron
• Alien Nackle
• Alien Regulan
• Alien Temperor
• Alien Zarab ‎
• Alien Zetton
• Animal Farm (1954 film) ‎
• Banila
• Bemstar
• Birdon
• Dada (Ultra Monster)
• Doragoris
• Dorako
• Earthtron
• Eleking
• Femigon
• Gamera 2: Attack of Legion ‎
• Gamera 3: Awakening of Irys ‎
• Gamera the Brave ‎
• Gesura
• Ghostron
• Goldras
• Golza
• Gomora
• Gudon
• Jamila (Ultra monster)
• Japanese films of 2001 ‎
• Japanese films of 2002 ‎
• Japanese films of 2003 ‎
• Japanese films of 2004 ‎
• Japanese films of 2006 ‎
• Japanese films of 2009 ‎
• Kelbeam
• Keronia
• King Joe (Ultra monster)
• Kiyla
• Kodaigon
• List of Return of Ultraman monsters
• List of Ultraman 80 monsters
• List of Ultraman Gaia monsters ‎
• List of Ultraman monsters
• List of Ultraman Taro monsters
• Lunaticks
• Madeline (1998 film) ‎
• Magular
• Miclas
• Mukadender
• Nova (Ultra monster)
• Nurse (Ultra monster) . IP copied from Ultra site, content rewritten by others Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• Pandon
• Pestar
• Red King (Ultra monster)
• Sadora
• Silvergon
• Sniz & Fondue
• Telesdon
• Template:Ultra Monsters ‎
• The Swan Princess II: Escape from Castle Mountain ‎
• The Swan Princess: The Mystery of the Enchanted Kingdom ‎
• The War of the Gargantuas ‎
• Tyrant (Ultra monster)
• Ultraman 80 ‎
• Ultraman Ace ‎
• Ultraman Leo ‎
• Ultraman Tiga ‎
• Ultra Monsters
• Vakishim
• Yapool
• Zetton

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I severely doubt that the pages on the individual Ultraman programs and the navigation template will be of much issue here. The Ultraman Tiga page is the largest that might be an issue (at least in my topic area) and much of the identical content comes about from pages such as this, this, and this copying Misplaced Pages outright (supersentai.com is a particularly egregious example of copyvio of our material).—Ryulong (竜龙) 18:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Problem with aggressive users

I have a problem with aggressive users Csendesmark and CoolKoon. I think Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. User Csendesmark wrote on my talk page: Even asked politely, you are talking about Hungarians like the Nazis about Jews. In a long run, you may have to register a new account... Your education seems like told to hate the Magyars ... Hungarians=bad/evil/DEVIL. Can you name anything good in Hungary or the Hungarian people? (really)1 This is great personal attack and lie of course. After he wrote on CoolKoon talk page in Hungarian language: megtudnád velem osztani a emesen vagy szkojp címed? > translate: he knew me or share ? ? address? And CoolKoon speedy deleted this post.2. User CoolKoon wrote on my talk page: "So once again, another case of assuming bad faith. I've tried to point out to you the fact that it was the wording of your edit which was the most problematic, not necessarily the content itself (though I strongly object to some of it too). So you can either choose to ignore my advice (Wladthemlat would probably advise in favor of that), keep pushing the POVishly worded material and risk an ANI report and sanctions (I'm not blackmailing you, any other editor could file an ANI report for inserting POV material too) OR you could reword your edit (in the sorts of "the census has been challenged by some as being manipulated") and could subsequently report editors who'd try to remove it, even though it's "properly sourced NPOV material" (provided your sources ARE reliable and not in the likes of beo.sk, extraplus.sk or voltaire.netkosice.sk etc.). The power (to choose one of the options) is yours...."3 His post is full lies, but why am I threatened? I used reference by Dr. Anatol Murad (US professor), but CoolKoon wrote about his work: reeks of bad science 4 This is personal attack on Dr. Anatol Murad. Who are CoolKoon? What is his education? Any expert in this theme? Or original researcher. I also used reference by Prof. Štefan Šutaj published by Cambridge University Press (Šuta is head of the department of history, Institute of Social Sciences, Slovak Academy of Sciences. He is also head of the SK-HU intergovernmental committee of historians - if Hungarian government is ok with him, so am I.) For CoolKoon Šutaj is Slovak nationalist.5 This is personal attack on Prof. Štefan Šutaj. Until CoolKoon and othres provide some reliable sources disputing Murad´s and Šutaj's qualification or academic work, his qualification does make him an expert and his publications expert ones. Please resolve problems with Csendesmark´s and CoolKoon´s personal attacks.--Omen1229 (talk) 13:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I topic-banned the reporting editor, Omen1229 (talk · contribs), under WP:DIGWUREN for a persistent history of battleground conduct. Might well be worth having a good hard look at the other parties too, but don't have the time right now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Jim Sukwutput

I'm an anonymous editor. I used to be registered, I made the choice to be anonymous by IP some time ago. I'm often called a troll. I've been involved in WP:ITN/C since the announcement of Steve Jobs' resignation from the Apple CEO position prior to his death. My IP is dynamic, it changes, I don't care. I tried unsuccessfully to have the wordwide Occupy Movement posted to ITN several weeks ago. I have a genuine interest in Occupy Movement articles. I'm not a troll.

User:Jim_Sukwutput has made a number of hostile remarks:

• "This is the second time you used this idiotic line of reasoning."
• "This is either a joke or what is possibly the dumbest comment ever posted on Misplaced Pages."
• "Then when I exposed his bullshit for what it is, he proceeded to follow me across five AfD nominations and vote the opposite way in every one of them. This, my friends, is the clear mark of a troll."
• "But instead of educating your ignorant ass"

I don't understand this users hostility. Please help. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 14:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC) A good faith edit by a legitimate anonymous editor. Please do not revery my edits. I am not a troll.

Well, you could start by explaining just what you meant by, "The speed of neutrinos at CERN is a local issue of limited global significance." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It was a doomed post, I was having a little fun with it. Obviously the fundamental laws of physics affect the entire world, but if 7000 people closing the port of Oakland are not interesting outside the USA, surely some neutrinos at CERN are not interesting outside of Europe. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to waste people's time with deliberately disruptive comments, you should expect some backlash. Jim Sukwutput could certainly have avoided taking your bait, but the root cause was your disruption of the ITN process as some sort of retribution for not having your own pet subject featured. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I expect that if some significant number of the occupiers get killed, global interest will increase. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you realise that you start your initial complaint by insisting allegations of you being a troll are frivolous and constitute a "personal attack", and then just 20 minutes later confessed that you were indeed trolling in one of the discussions that YOU linked to? For your own good, if you're going to throw boomerangs, at least don't sharpen them first. Also, I'd just like to point out that, amongst the 4 links you posted, the first 2 are definitely not personal attacks. Calling an argument "stupid" or "idiotic" is perhaps uncivil, but it's not the same as calling someone stupid or an idiot. Basalisk ⁄_berate 15:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, I'm not a troll, I'm not leaving bait to take. You're focusing on one section, the heading of which was "Einstein Fail". Care to comment on the others? Carefully considered comments are answered with "idiotic line of reasoning"? That's hateful. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

On top of that I've never once responded to this users comments, however, the user insists on responding to mine. I don't understand, because I don't attack the user, but the user attacks me. I don't make absurd comments that are patent nonsense (with the exception of the aforementioned Einstein Fail section). Why the hate? I'm not a troll. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I have been witness to these ITN/C discussions with the people involved and User:Deterence, who has since been blocked for uncivil remarks and insults (including using personal insults against me). The arena of ITN/C can be heated at times, and people require a few breaths between posts. However I can see no issue in this specific point - Jim Sukwutput has often been the calmer influence in ITN/C though his turns of phrase can be a little spiky at times. Further more, I think the desire to get an Occupy article on the front page just for the sake of it clouds peoples opinions, which is exactly why no Occupy article has ever had a successful nomination. doktorb _words 15:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi. This has nothing to do with occupy, at this point, and more to do with the phrase "Idiotic line of reasoning", then resorting to calling my comments "bullshit", even after I asked the user to stop being uncivil. They're hateful, discouraging remarks and must stop. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• I have no remarks on the first three edits given by the user. Given the behavior of this user as demonstrated in this section, those comments were certainly well-justified, though they could be put more civilly. But the fourth edit is not a comment on the IP. It was a response to User:Deterence, who has since been indefinitely banned for personal attacking numerous users. Given the severity of his personal attacks at the time (accusing that User:Doktorbuk has issues with mental capacity), I believe my response was rather well-mannered. And in fact, if you check the edit history of the page, you'll notice that I removed in good faith the offending part of my comment immediately after I made it. The inclusion of this edit in the IP's complaint is thus completely frivolous, and falls into a long pattern of edits made in bad faith to deliberately provoke other users and disrupt serious work on Misplaced Pages. This is why I referred to him as a "troll" - in an attempt to dissuade fellow editors on ITN/C from taking his baits. JimSukwutput 16:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer Rush

Not sure if this is the right place, but can someone take a look at the recent history of Jennifer Rush and Movin' (album). Not sure what to do about this user (s).--Tuzapicabit (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Ummm, the article talk page is the right place to start. Given the relative triviality of the fact in question (getting to #78 in the UK singles charts in the 80s; The Freshies managed top 60 by painting their guitars pink), I can't see why you didn't just tag it as and move on. No admin action required here at this time, though obviously if the user adding said info continues to a) swap accounts and b) use incivil edit summaries that warrants a warning. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The chart section is referenced. There's no need to tag it with since the reference given shows that the information he's trying to add is false. Never mind.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Slowking4 self-imposed interaction bans

I'm can't make heads or tails of Slowking's intent with adding four Misplaced Pages users to his userpage to "do not interact with". I let him know that users who keep lists of editors like that can be seen as an attack and similar lists (during my time on Misplaced Pages) have been deleted for that reason. I extended good faith and, instead of removing the content myself, I asked him to remove it from his user space so editors listed there wouldn't take offense. His reply was that they are self-imposed interaction bans, told me to not talk to him and then added me to his user page . My concern is the fact he calls them interaction bans (especially since this is the first time I have ever talked to him), me being listed there and the way it promotes a lack of civility and probably biting a newcomer in the future. Personally, I would like my name removed from such a list, whether the other editors listed there mind being there or not. Since I'm involved, I don't want to remove it myself. Also, since he doesn't want me to talk to him, I guess I'll ask someone to inform him of this thread I started. — Moe ε 16:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I dont think it's a personal attack. It's a self-reminder of a self-imposed interaction ban in the user's own userspace. They dont say why they have the ban, they don't attack you, and they dont link to any diffs. It's as benign as such as thing can be.--v/r - TP 16:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You don't find there to be anything wrong with an editor who self-imposes an interaction ban on someone they have talked to once? Interaction bans are usually imposed through the community once every method of dispute resolution has been tried and failed. — Moe ε 16:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

He posted once, and Slowking has instructed him never to post again. That's hardly benign, is it. Why don't you try posting that ANI notification and see if he bans you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

They are self-imposed interaction bans. As far as I am aware, that means that Slowking will not contact Moe Epsilon. It doesn't go the other direction. That's not how a self-imposed ban works. Epsilon hasn't self-imposed his own ban. Further, if Slowking choses not to interact with everyone on Misplaced Pages, that's his choice. He'll find difficulty editing collaboratively, and it won't stop folks from leaving him warnings, but he'll find his own restrictions are...restrictive. So, like I said: No, it's not a problem, and yes it is benign.--v/r - TP 16:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That isn't how an interaction ban works either though. An interaction ban means he will be blocked if he contacts, starts threads, mentions in discussion, etc. about a certain editor he's in a dispute with. If he actually receives blocks for an interaction ban then I suppose then he has a legitimate concern and reason for keeping a list. However, I am not in a dispute with him (or I wasn't before he posted my name on his user page). As it stands, it is just a list of editors he doesn't like nor wants to communicate with. — Moe ε 17:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yow. Um, actually, I'm not so sure about that, TP. User_talk:Slowking4#Quick question for you makes me want to start questioning just how much we should WP:AGF about this; that last comment, in particular, seems more than a little questionable to me. I just notified the user, so we'll see how things go from here. rdfox 76 (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not a formal community-imposed sanction-backed interaction ban. This user has informally chosen to refrain from interacting with you. He has chosen to make this public knowledge. It is a one way street. Is it a bit dramatic? Yeah. Is it also dramatic to make such a big deal of it? Yeah, it is. You can't force someone to interact with you. At most, you can report them for failing to discuss article content that you've disputed.--v/r - TP 17:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Re Rdfox 76: Not so sure about it? Slowking4 said exactly the same I did. "no, this is merely a reminder to me not to interact with these people," It is a self-reminder. "i would ask you not to interact with me" - He asked that Epsilon not interact with him. He didn't say Epsilon is banned from interacting with him, demand that he stop, or any other threatening or personal attacking language. You see?--v/r - TP 17:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Utterly shocking, in years past it was uncivil and disruptive to have lists of editors you don't like on your user page or say that you didn't want to communicate with them, which was accordingly removed. Now the user who does such a thing can just call it a faux interaction ban and the people on the list are dramatic for bringing it up. "Welcome to Misplaced Pages, collaborate with who you want." — Moe ε 17:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No, in the past it was disruptive to say "I dont like this user because of A, B, and C (link here, here, and here)". But feel free to continue this drama-fest without me. When you want to be reasonable, you can invite me back to the discussion. Until then, this won't achieve anything.--v/r - TP 17:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected, dramatic and unreasonable when starting an honest conversation. — Moe ε 17:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's say I run into an editor whose edits have been a) racist, b) attacking, c) rude and aggressive, and d) otherwise offend my beliefs and sensibilities. Even though I have never interacted with them, would I not be totally within my rights to make a note to never engage that person in conversation? (I'm not suggesting that's the case here...merely making a point) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If they were racist, attacking, rude, aggressive or otherwise offensive, they would probably be violating one policy or another, and legitimate claims of policy violation are worth a diff link. Even so, a list on your user page would probably entice them further into making such comments. However, my comment on this editor's talk page could no way be contrived into any of these things. — Moe ε 20:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Davshul, disruptive editing

Davshul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has repeatedly, massively vandalised 2011 in the United States and other 2011 in "other country" articles.

I have pointed out on several occassions, to no useful end, that all these articles are part of the parent 2011 (a well-policed article), and that the change he keeps making needs to be cleared there first in the talk section, Talk:2011. Instead he has gone to the talk section for the actual article, Talk:2011 in the United States with useless discussion that he knows in bad faith that no one but me will ever read since the discussion there is poorly read, and most likely, completely never read.

As per Misplaced Pages:Recent years#Article body - individual dates are linked.--70.162.171.210 (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you aware that it is also bad faith editing to claim someone else is editing in bad faith? Leaving headings like "notification of bad faith edits discussion" on the user's talk page doesn't help either. No comment on the actual dispute, just an FYI.--v/r - TP 17:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

what are you talking about?, the posting mechanism here said i was supposed to notify him--70.162.171.210 (talk) 17:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and generally that is done with a heading that says "AN/I Discussion". That isn't a free license to accuse someone of bad faith.--v/r - TP 17:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

i have changed it--70.162.171.210 (talk) 17:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

@70.162.171.210: I see nothing in the history of this dispute except your repeated characterization of Davshul's work as "vandalism" or "bad faith" or "disruptive". I don't see where any of his work is any of that. What you should do, rather than calling his editing what it is not, is to instead seek discussion on the article talk pages. If you believe that the discussion does not have enough participation from neutral parties, then see WP:DR and choose a mechanism there (such as WP:3O or WP:DRN) to get extra attention. Using perjorative terms to describe someone's editing doesn't help you "win", it merely makes you look like a bully and is unlikely to result in a positive outcome for you. Instead, speak to and about others in non-confrontational terms, use existing mechanisms for dispute resolution, and have the patience to understand that disputes may not be resolved instantly; it may take some days for enough people to comment to allow for a reasonable consensus to arise. --Jayron32 17:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"Tailsman 67"

First off, forgive me if I do this wrong. I'm an experienced editor, but usually I'm not the type to file complaints like this.

This particular user has been very disruptive with their posting, and it has been escalating late. He refuses to make an account, as he's recently revealed he believes he can get away with more without getting blocked if he just uses IPs. He uses a number of IPs, I can look up more if I need to, but his most active ones I'm familiar with are User talk:74.163.17.131 (Here's a more accurate look at what his talk page should look like: and User talk:98.71.62.59 (EDIT:IP has since blanked their page. Before the blanking, it looked like this).

Anyways, this user is constantly breaking rules, despite how many times they've been warned. (Their talk page shows the degree of warnings received. The worst violations include frequent breakings of WP:NOTAFORUM, such as today here , where he even seemed to admit to knowing he's breaking the rules. And that's what brings me here, the fact that he's recently written on my talk page thatd does it because he thinks he can get away with it

I can go on and on about the removing sourced info w/o explanation, personal attacks, starting discussions where they don't belong, etc, but much of that is covered on the IP talk pages indirectly, so I was going to see if that was enough to warrant action or not. Let me know. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 17:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

i have nothing against using an anon ip as long as it does not become a sockpuppet as you have described above--70.162.171.210 (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem isn't that they're an IP, I don't care either way about that. It's all the policies he continually breaks, and the fact that he recently disclosed that he breaks policies on purpose because he thinks he can get away with it as an IP... Sergecross73 msg me 17:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I have more old Ips than that,damn do something right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Another example of this users contributions here, take note, after the user was notified about these very discussions. Sergecross73 msg me 17:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'll say that in my opinion, not much is needed other than

1. asking Tailsman to stay with using one or two IPs instead of a bunch and
2. a warning, maybe a short block for violation WP:NOTAFORUM

HurricaneFan25 18:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The user has already been notified of NOTAFORUM many, many times. And he's been asked not to break policy up and down his talk pages, and yet continues to do so. What makes you think asking him to "stop using one or two IPs" would get any sort of response? Sergecross73 msg me 18:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Not my falt,my Ip changes when I restart my internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

What does "falt" mean? HurricaneFan25 18:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I was also 74.163.25.111. my first Ip — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Can you disclose all your IP addresses you have used? And the main issue is not your constant IP changes, it's your violations of WP:NOTAFORUM. HurricaneFan25 18:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Disclose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems like some WP:COMPETENCE here too. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You can ask for page protection of your user talk page. Then set up a subpage for IPs to post to. --Blackmane (talk) 18:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, though I find it rather easy to keep track of my own talk page, and there's even other users I know who would probably remove it if I missed it. I'm more concerned with the constant breaking of policy despite warnings, unwillingness to discuss or communicate on a coherent level and the "I doing this on purpose, you can't stop me" type attitude. Sergecross73 msg me 18:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

>_> I got to go,pages to fix,spelling to correct,and talkpages to be set up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah you can't block me cause I wouldn't get an account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 19:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You're not at risk of being blocked because you're not getting an account; you're at risk of being blocked for not following the rules and attacking other editors. There's a BIG difference. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Examples

Attacking other editors/Incivility

Notaforum Violations

1. , then instantly afterwards despite being warned:

Disruptive posting

1. (Pretending to argue with a sibling who was using the same IP. This edit is a user removing the conversation outright)

3RR

1. Sonic Generations -
2. Cortana (Just today, despite being warned of it before)

This is just a work in progress, I can provide many more... Sergecross73 msg me 20:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You DICK I told you my brother has the same Ip adress.

Attention towards user Evlekis

Undoing my edits, looks like edit waring to me. Majuru (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC) , Talk page , , , Talk page , , ,

Dantes Inferno.

Good evening. User:Drmies has been removing my edits to the article Dantes Inferno, noting them as acts of vandalism. User:Deor left a note on my talk page with a link to a source that is not related to my edits. My edits are not vandalism, and I would appreciate support from the community in this matter. Both users have been notified. Diffs: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Inferno_(Dante)&diff=461833517&oldid=461833294 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Inferno_(Dante)&diff=461850126&oldid=461847564 46.249.56.227 (talk) 20:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• There is no administrative action to take here. This appears to be a content dispute, and you have done nothing whatsoever to indicate or discuss why the quotes should not be presented in chronological order. They're not vandalism (and nowhere does Drmies say they were), but still unconstructive. --Kinu /_c 20:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

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