Misplaced Pages

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This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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Amadigi di Gaula

Could I ask you a favor? Could you take a look at Amadigi di Gaula and tell me your opinion. Someone who seems to follow me and behaves as a troll added flags there. This person thinks I did something wrong, by adding a few lines from two articles which I found on internet. I contacted one of the authors, and he does not seem to be annoyed, on the contrary he is willing to help. But I really think I did not do something wrong. In fact I made references which is usually enough in academic circles. I contacted an experienced scientist and he told me if this person is not the author, I should not worry. But this wikipedian has different ideas, probably because he does not like me for some time. Nobody else seems to bother. The article is very poorly visited.

This person earlier hijacked George Frideric Handel's art collection which I started. He removed all the links to the Dutch and Italian painters and thinks he did a good job. I don't think he is a good pedagog. The link to this article from the main article Georg Frederick Handel is poor too, so nobody is going there to investigate. Taksen (talk) 16:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

You do not appear to understand Misplaced Pages's copyright policy. You must never copy material directly from a source without putting it in quotation marks, "like this", or in a quotation box. Never. Never, never, never. No matter how nice it is. When you do that, you put Misplaced Pages in the position of breaking the law. If you don't follow this rule, you will have to be blocked from editing. Looie496 (talk) 17:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I followed your advice. I hope it works.Greetings from Amsterdam.Taksen (talk) 18:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S. In my point of view the English Misplaced Pages changed into something that reminds me to the GDR, where you cannot trust anybody. They are unwilling to help and might attack you not understanding the culture or on your language. Besides the rules on the continent are more layed back. We don't have as much lawyers as you have who would like to make a buck, and I can compare because I have experience on the Dutch, German and French Misplaced Pages. Taksen (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Ask 1,001 users: To User:Taksen, some English Misplaced Pages users might be more hostile than before, but there are many editors who keep trying to be civil and helpful, despite the thousands of editors who have left English WP during the past 2 years. There are hundreds of policy-point or guideline rules here, and someone could always complain over any of a hundred different issues. I think we still have over 30,000 editors who are somewhat active every month, so you would need to check with about 1,001 users to see if they are generally more hostile or not, but I agree the hostility can seem extreme at times. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I am stunned (and utterly demoralized) that this has landed here. Please see my response here (or preferably, since this is incredulous, please don't be bothered to see it). GFHandel ♬  08:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think this study explains a lot: Can undergraduate students determine whether text has been plagiarized?. Taksen was clearly plagiarising, but may well not be aware of the fact. Hans Adler 09:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The funny thing about that article is that even its author doesn't actually understand the rules: he thinks that paraphrasing is okay if the wording is altered enough. That's not true: plagiarism occurs whenever the wording is derived from the wording of the original version, regardless of how extensively it is modified. The only way to avoid plagiarism is to write entirely in one's own words (or to indicate explicitly that the wording of the original is being used). Looie496 (talk) 16:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"plagiarism occurs whenever the wording is derived from the wording of the original version, regardless of how extensively it is modified" -- I don't think you can put it that way. When you summarise someone else's text it is perfectly normal and desirable to use the key words from the original text and follow its necessary structure. Plagiarism is when you also use non-essential aspects of the original text such as accidental formulations and accidental structure. Or when you get this right but omit the citation.

Can you point me to evidence that the author of the study really got this wrong? Hans Adler 17:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

My guess is that Looie496 is referring to the ethics of the situation: I would call it plagiarism if someone were to copy a few paragraphs from a source, then massage each sentence with the intention of making the result acceptable to copyright defenders, then paste it into an article. In such a case, the editor acted merely as a robot to perform a copy-with-modification. Misplaced Pages's reputation would be damaged if that occurred frequently. Johnuniq (talk) 22:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That's definitely not what I described as acceptable, and I am not going to re-read the entire study to see if they somewhere say something indicating that the examples they considered acceptable were in fact not acceptable. Maybe Looie496 has seen the actual questions somewhere? I would be very much interested in seeing them. Hans Adler 22:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussion regarding a message of yours re Misplaced Pages and democracy

FYI there is currently a discussion on a policy talk page in the section Misplaced Pages is not a democracy regarding a previous message of yours that is linked to from the policy. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
P.S. The discussion is just in the first part of the section, not the subsection. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
P.P.S. Strikeout because the formatting was changed (fixed) to place the off-topic subsection in its own section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there a particular question that you or someone else has? For what it is worth, I don't agree with Septentrionalis. Misplaced Pages really is not a democracy. Misplaced Pages is also not an experiment in consensus. Misplaced Pages is a project to write an encyclopedia. Anyone who thinks any other goal is higher has missed the point. As a project to write an encyclopedia we have elements of consensus, democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy. All of those elements are valid so long as they serve the purpose of building an encyclopedia, and invalid when they get in the way of that. People who treat the project as a political game are missing the point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Without disagreeing with your main point - that we are here to create an encyclopedia - I will point out that there is no human social activity (anywhere) that is devoid of politics. If we do not put the effort into constructing a functional political system of some sort, then what we will end up with is a dysfunctionally haphazard mess of conflicting political agendas, and that will interfere with the quality of the encyclopedia. In fact, it already does interfere: As a project we are incapable of resolving many contentious issues because there is no systematic method of addressing ideological divides (short of endless talk page disputes geared towards trumping up excuses to block or topic-ban one side of the dispute - is that what you consider a rational decision-making process for an encyclopedia?)

The project has been pulling an ostrich on this issue for far too long, if you ask me (not that you did… ). I don't really care what system we end up with (the system is secondary to the goal, as you point out), but we need some rational, consistent, un-neutered system, because the alternative is… well… talk:abortion, talk:cold fusion, talk:Race and intelligence, talk:creationism, talk:pregnancy, talk:Muhammad/images, talk:goatse.cx, talk:Messianic Judaism, etc, etc, etc… --Ludwigs2 00:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought Misplaced Pages was an experiment in child rearing; at least that's what some women here have noted. However, I also agree with some things User:Ludwigs2 has stated, and see the need to define some pro-active governance systems, such as randomized juries to decide issues, rather than the current they-all-respond-together WP:TAGTEAM !votes at WP:ANI, plus perhaps run anonymous or secret-ballot votes, where only the totals are revealed. -Wikid77 05:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

An experiment in child rearing? I have never heard of this before, but it makes sense. Fortunately my six-year-old daughter is a lot more mature than many Wikipedians. Hans Adler 08:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Did you just describe Misplaced Pages as a monarchy, Jimbo? --FormerIP (talk) 00:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Just as disturbing is the mention of aristocracy. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

These are all accurate descriptions of aspects of our community. Are you all blind? Hans Adler 00:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm more wondering whether to do Jimbo a special crown-shaped barnstar. Of course Misplaced Pages is, to a significant extent, a democracy. There'd be no point in it otherwise. And of course democracy does not mean the tyranny of the majority. But we are subject to the tyranny of anything, we have a problem. --FormerIP (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

We have a blood based, probably ethnically distinct, elite that extracts social wealth in an "in-kind" or "labour corvee" form through threats of violence concealed beneath reciprocal obligations tied up in concepts of honour? Fifelfoo (talk) 00:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The tiniest bit of attention in history lessons can help avoid such misunderstandings. Or one can look things up in Misplaced Pages: "In origin in Ancient Greece, it was conceived of as rule by the best qualified citizens, and contrasted with monarchy. In later times, aristocracy was seen as rule by a privileged few (the aristocratic class)." Jimbo obviously meant the first sense. Hans Adler 01:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If we have an aristocratic class here, they need spoons up their bums. We have functionaries and an unelected committee. --FormerIP (talk) 01:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec)"Ethnically distinct"? I daresay that is a rather objectionable statement. AFAICT, Misplaced Pages is an ordered attempt to produce as good an encyclopedia as possible using reliable published sources, and edited by an array of people who may have differing points of view who are willing to lay such points of view aside in the interest of producing a neutrally worded and accurate encyclopedia. Cheers. (Shameless self-promotion of WP:PIECE and WP:KNOW inserted) Collect (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

You know, I've just been having this discussion on my talk page. interesting. What we currently have on project is a kind of pre-tribal band system, which can look like any other system (because the elements of all sophisticated political systems are present 'in the bud' in social bands). There are some elements of tribal society developing (Arbcom and administrators fill a role like 'tribal elders' in loose tribal aggregates, policy and guidelines take on an almost mystical/devotional role in some discussions), but on individual pages it still largely devolves to conflicts between small ideologically insular groups fighting for control of a resource. Aristocracy in any sense of the term would be a superior system; in Aristotle's sense it would be far superior.

I'll admit that I'm a huge fan of consensus systems (I live for deliberative democracy…), but consensus systems are hard: they take a lot of self-reflection, a lot of self-moderation, and both a willingness and an ability to set aside small personal concerns in favor of large public concerns. These features are noticeably absent from many of the more contentious discussions on project. If we are not willing to take the steps to achieve a properly functioning consensus system, then we would really do better to try for another less-open approach, because dysfunctional consensus systems are ugly, ugly, ugly beasts. It's why Aristotle considered 'democracy' the worst form of governance (because his understanding of democracy was more-or-less rule by the ignorant and emotionally volatile masses). --Ludwigs2 01:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Collect, I was referring to the repeated discussions of the role of ethnically coherent invaders in early Feudal societies, and their tendency to declare themselves as a nobility or aristocracy over the previously indigenous inhabitants; cf: the Normans in Saxon England. In a way, my reaction to the suggestion we tolerate monarchy is equivalent to your reaction to my suggestion that ethnicity could be involved: we hold with the common enlightenment values regarding proper ordering of constitutions and politics and especial political classes and racialism are both repugnant to the values of the enlightenment. Your suggestion of rule by highest reliability sources is far more desirable to me than the suggestion that we tolerate monarchies or aristocracies in the encyclopaedic project.

Ludwigs2: why doesn't MILHIST have governance problems; and, why does it respond to political criticism from external groups, such as FAC, so readily? The criticism regarding article quality and supply of reviewers (an economic problem) was resolved rather rapidly, and without battleground behaviour against the external group. MILHIST seems to have incorporated heightened sourcing quality, citation presentation, textual quality, and MOS support based on criticisms. Why does MILHIST work where other projects fail? I'd suggest it may be the combination of a high participation culture, an internal rewards and recognition system, a commitment to quality that backgrounds consensus, a recognition of externally driven standards as the key to resolving crises, and a decision to not recognise attempts to revisit community consensus. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

sorry, those are not articles I generally work on, so I can't speak to the details. I suspect, however, that it's largely due to the fact that Military History has a strong academic tradition and rarely works with controversial material. Most major military actions have a host of well-documented sources, and disagreements are usually over details rather than core principles. Where MILHIST verges into controversial material - for instance, the Armenian Genocide - I expect you see just as much consternation as you see on the pages I mentioned above. Please remember, much of wikipedia works perfectly fine, just the way that pre-tribal groups often shared the same hunting grounds without conflict. Problems occur where there's competition, because there's there's no overarching wikipedia culture to stabilize such conflicts, and no system in place for dealing with them as a collectivity. --Ludwigs2 05:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I concur regarding the common academic culture in MILHIST. There are fundamental disputes emerging within the structure, across projects, and I'd suggest that the model of pre-agricultural society isn't a useful one. Intrafirm competition within conglomerates, or interdepartmental conflict within bureaucracy are far better models. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Jimbo, Re your question, "Is there a particular question that you or someone else has?" - Not from me. I was just giving you a heads up on a discussion on a policy talk page about whether or not the policy page was misinterpreting a previous message of yours. And I wasn't requesting anything from you. I thought the section was an important part of policy because it influences how much value to give to consensus polls. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Update. On that policy talk page it turned out I was mistaken about your message being misinterpreted and I corrected my error. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Let you know about petition

Just ran across this - Petition: Replace the image of Jimmy Wales with that of a golden retriever. Thought it was funny. And a golden retriever would be adorable. Silverseren 01:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I personally support this too. Sceptre 02:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Utterly agree. He's Gone Mental 16:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh no! I'd have to donate all over again. Cloveapple (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

<-- Yes, that! Silverseren 18:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:RFP/R

Hi,Jimbo.I just have a query.Why can't experienced rollbackers give permission for rollback at Requests for rollback page?I try to mean,that,rollbackers cannot give any more permission other than for rollback?That's me! Track me! 16:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Because that's not how the software works. DS (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Why doesn't the software gets updated to a new version which has this facility?That's me! Track me! 16:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Because why would they? Admins don't approve other admins--Jac16888 18:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

"This enshrines old bad practices and privileges the past over the future"

Jimbo, a few weeks ago, you made the above disapproving comment. I was wondering, how are Wikipedians generally supposed to know that this is a bad thing for the encyclopedia—where can we find a statement of principle that promotes this sentiment? Uniplex (talk) 20:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:BOLD and WP:IAR.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)