| Revision as of 19:11, 27 November 2011 editWilliam Avery (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers475,494 edits →This article is a confusing POV & synthesis mess by blending in off-topic items← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:15, 27 November 2011 edit undoNorth8000 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers84,165 edits →This article is a confusing POV & synthesis mess by blending in off-topic itemsNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::::North8000, as has been stated before words do not always follow their exact etymology. Antisemitsm means discrimination againist Jews not all semites (which would include Arabs and Iranians). Racism when it was coined was similarly challenged as should have meaning the study of race. The new use of the -ism wasn't firmly established until much later. If you had cared to read the history of this page you would know this. One could also argue that homophobia really DOES come from fear. A fear that homosexuality will become mainstream. A fear that oneself could be gay or be influenced by gay people. I highly suggest you read the history of this talk page before commenting again as this topic is one of the most covered on this page. Etymology is not always the way a word is used in the english language. PERIOD.-] (]) 18:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC) | :::::::::North8000, as has been stated before words do not always follow their exact etymology. Antisemitsm means discrimination againist Jews not all semites (which would include Arabs and Iranians). Racism when it was coined was similarly challenged as should have meaning the study of race. The new use of the -ism wasn't firmly established until much later. If you had cared to read the history of this page you would know this. One could also argue that homophobia really DOES come from fear. A fear that homosexuality will become mainstream. A fear that oneself could be gay or be influenced by gay people. I highly suggest you read the history of this talk page before commenting again as this topic is one of the most covered on this page. Etymology is not always the way a word is used in the english language. PERIOD.-] (]) 18:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::: North8000, I don't appreciate the allegation of bad faith. The entry I quoted was the one relevant in this case: its meaning as a combining form in compound words. It is is you who are mistaken in confusing this with the meaning of the free-standing word 'phobia'. ] (]) 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC) | ::::::: North8000, I don't appreciate the allegation of bad faith. The entry I quoted was the one relevant in this case: its meaning as a combining form in compound words. It is is you who are mistaken in confusing this with the meaning of the free-standing word 'phobia'. ] (]) 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::Sorry if I said it badly. But could you provide the full definition that you found? <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 19:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC) | |||
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Pro-homosexual Bias
This article has great examples of homophobia, and homophobic persons, and the definition of this article is so broad that anybody disagreeing with homosexuality is labeled a homophobe. Homo-meaning same, phobia-meaning fear. Or taken from fear of homosexuals. Many people against homosexuality do not fear it, and have many homosexual friends. They just do not agree that one male having sex with another male, or a woman having sex with another woman, is right, and of which both actions are unnatural, even in the animal kingdom.
The article also displays a picture of gay protesters at church, stating "Kansan" but whatever that word means is not easily known. They also appear to be from a radical church that church goers are also against.
The entire article seems to be written and guarded by pro-homosexual attitude people. Describing people as having a "negative" attitude towards homosexuality simply because they do not promote it or agree with is also just rhetoric, and is not negative. Negative and positive are words based on opinion.
Where in the article does it differentiate between disapproving of gay acts and not gay people? Which those against homosexuality frequently admit, as many have gay friends.
Also see the article about xenophobic. The definition is much better and more specific than the definition in this article. The fact that one talks about race, and one about homosexuality, yet both are so different, points to the fact that the article discriminates against those with opposing viewpoints, and is highly subjective.
- It might suprise you to know that phobia also means aversion to. Not all words mean exactly what they are supposed to mean etymologically. Antisemitism only refers to Jews because at the time the word was created they were the only semites outside of the Middle East. It still retains its definition as being only againist Jews while Anti-Arabism and Islamophobia are used againist Arabs and Muslims. Xenophobia also states that it is hatred or fear of foreigners not just fear. Everyone has a right to agree or disagree with certain prejudices including but not limited to racism, antisemitism or homophobia. However it is when these create results that others can see such as not hiring someone or denieing one group the right to adoption that suddenly it goes from prejudice to discrimination. Where this article does mess itself up however is that it states these attitudes can be put towards transgenders, transsexuals and intersex which is no longer homophobia or even sexualism but a form of transphobia which is more properly a form of sexism. There is already a section about opposition to the term.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well then I'd advise you to take the link to the article "Homophobia" in article "List of phobias" off of the header "Psychological conditions" as it no longer is (or) was never about the phobia in the psychological sense, defined as; "irrational, disabling fear as a mental disorder", and is a "common usage" of the term outside the scientific terminology (as you have elaborated on yourself)... To further strengthen my case, I will give the example of the terms "Gynophobia" and "Androphobia" and point out how they are not being classified under "Sex Discrimination", not even under the umbrella term "Discrimination" as they are actual "Psychological conditions". Although I know none and even if non exists, placing the link of this article under the header "Psychological conditions" in the "List of phobias" article is a form of discrimination (refer to; "http://en.wikipedia.org/Mental_disorder#Perception_and_discrimination") against people who are homophobic in the sense of the psychiatric condition of homophobia, a concept which this article is clearly not about.Gabzlab00 (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, "Kansan" refers to someone from Kansas, but I agree that image caption represented a generalised offense as it was, as it maligned Kansans in general. The key identifying fact about those protesters is that they are from the Westboro Baptist Church (in fact, the image is described as being Jael Phelps, one of founder Fred Phelps's family), so I've changed it accordingly -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Suggested improvement
The article bashes religion in the "institutionalized homophobia" section, which is also very biased. It would be a good idea to change this. 71.204.179.212 (talk) 20:03, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- How would you wish to go about doing this? Please give examples of what needs to be changed, so the specifics may be discussed. Thanks. --‖ Ebyabe - Repel All Borders ‖ 20:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- After rereading the religion section I dont see much bias anymore (someone must have changed homophobic to anti-homosexual) but the UK/US section essentialy calls Republicans homophobes. (there is a difference between hating gay people and supporting traditional marriage) 71.204.179.212 (talk) 21:04, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're kind of switching topics here. I've made some edits to the religion part to clean it up, although some of it is still unsourced (and now tagged). As for your comment about Republicans, that's not what the article says - it says that Republicans are more likely to have "negative attitudes", and it is backed up by a source.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- After rereading the religion section I dont see much bias anymore (someone must have changed homophobic to anti-homosexual) but the UK/US section essentialy calls Republicans homophobes. (there is a difference between hating gay people and supporting traditional marriage) 71.204.179.212 (talk) 21:04, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
POV check tag
I have added it to the article so a neutral editor can address the glaring bias 71.204.179.212 (talk) 20:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- What glaring bias? You must be specific. Otherwise, it's just your bias on display in a sweeping generalisation. Never helpful. HiLo48 (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed it. You need to be specific. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Here's a specific! "Among more discussed forms are institutionalized 'homophobia' (e.g. religious and state-sponsored)". The footnote refers to the International Lesbian and Gay Association. There's no way that's a neutral or scientific source. PaulSank (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- But it is a reliable source. ILGA is an UN accredited organization. I see no need for an NPOV tag. --Scientiom (talk) 07:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Reliability is not what's in dispute at the moment. We're trying to make this article neutral. As far as I can tell from its website, the ILGA is at least in part an activist organization. Activist organizations do like to make definitions, but their definitions are designed to support what they're doing. Activists often use definitions to re-frame the debate. I wouldn't use Focus On The Family, either, even though I agree with them on many points, because, again, they're not a neutral source. Activists, regardless of which side they're on, should never be used as sources for definitions that are supposed to be neutral. PaulSank (talk) 03:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the WP context of the word "neutral," neutral on WP does not mean that subjects are presented uncritically, or that wikipedia treats all sides of a subject equally. Neutral means that the reliable sources of any given subject are given the appropriate weight in an article based on their prominence as sources. We as editors have to be neutral, which means that our opinions are not put into the article. Sources only need to be reliable and mainstream. Because this source is a UN accredited organization, it meets our standards for reliability and thus is acceptable. If you disagree, you're welcome to get a second opinion on the reliable sources notice board. Nformation 05:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. Unless someone else wants to take up the issue of neutrality re this article, I say it's time to remove the tag. PaulSank (talk) 06:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the WP context of the word "neutral," neutral on WP does not mean that subjects are presented uncritically, or that wikipedia treats all sides of a subject equally. Neutral means that the reliable sources of any given subject are given the appropriate weight in an article based on their prominence as sources. We as editors have to be neutral, which means that our opinions are not put into the article. Sources only need to be reliable and mainstream. Because this source is a UN accredited organization, it meets our standards for reliability and thus is acceptable. If you disagree, you're welcome to get a second opinion on the reliable sources notice board. Nformation 05:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Reliability is not what's in dispute at the moment. We're trying to make this article neutral. As far as I can tell from its website, the ILGA is at least in part an activist organization. Activist organizations do like to make definitions, but their definitions are designed to support what they're doing. Activists often use definitions to re-frame the debate. I wouldn't use Focus On The Family, either, even though I agree with them on many points, because, again, they're not a neutral source. Activists, regardless of which side they're on, should never be used as sources for definitions that are supposed to be neutral. PaulSank (talk) 03:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- But it is a reliable source. ILGA is an UN accredited organization. I see no need for an NPOV tag. --Scientiom (talk) 07:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I also am offended
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I also am severely offended by this article's classifying me as a homophobe because I believe the Bible says homosexual behavior is a sin. The suffix "phobia" means "fear", and I have no fear of queers. I disapprove of what their activists are doing, but to say I'm a hater or a homophobe is unfair and verbally abusive. "Homophobia" resembles other "phobias", i.e., mental illnesses, and I feel very offended by this, especially since my best friend (other than my wife) is a psychiatrist -- an atheist, to boot -- and he considers me quite normal. 67.96.81.144 (talk) 05:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
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Racism
Did anyone notice theres a difference between causes of Homophobia in white people and black people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.156.92 (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This article is a confusing POV & synthesis mess by blending in off-topic items
What a mess! Nearly every part of the article seeks to define (by inclusion here) any opposition to homosexuality (or the societal normalization of homosexuality) on any grounds as a/the "phobia". This article needs paring (to put it mildly) to limit it's coverage to actual phobia.
It could have a section to cover efforts/tactics to try to label any opposition to homosexuality or the societal normalization of homosexuality as a phobia, but the article should cover rather than participate in that effort. North8000 (talk) 14:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Explain. What are the examples in the article? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 16:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- About 80% of the content of the article. These are the parts that are about mere opposition or disdain for homosexuality, or opposition to the societal normalization of homosexuality, or to efforts opposed to those I just listed, all where there is no particular "phobia" aspect. Here are the three largest scale examples:
- The entire "Institutionalized homophobia" section, including all of its subsections
- The entire "Distribution of attitudes in the UK and US" section
- The entire "Efforts to combat homophobia" section
- Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- First of all, we've had this before. "Opposition" to homosexuality is a cloak for homophobia (one cannot be "opposed" to it, just as one cannot be "opposed" to someone being black or white). Secondly, "-phobia" also means aversion, so most of what's mentioned here is warranted. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Your first answer (including and parallel to race) is founded on a presumed answer to the "is it a choice/behavior vs. an embedded attribute?" debate. Second, it skipped all of the other types of opposition (e.g. opposition to the societal normalization of it) Finally, and most fundamentally, an aversion does not equate to a phobia. E.G. an aversion to eating liver does not mean a phobia of liver, an aversion to conservatism does not mean a "phobia" of conservatism. North8000 (talk) 17:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- As far as relevant experts in the subject are concerned, that question has been answered. Not all words follow their literal etymological roots, see the collapsed discussion a couple topics up as this has already been discussed. Nformation 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- The OED says under "-phobia, comb. form" : "Forming nouns with the sense ‘fear of ——’, ‘aversion to ——’." Whatever other problems there may be with this article, the extension of the sense to 'aversion' is not one of them. William Avery (talk) 18:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Noformation, I see absolutely nothing like you describe. I see someone making a very weak and flawed argument argument to get the person who made the very valid point to "go away". And we're not talking about following literal etymological roots, we're talking about following the first paragraph in the lead, and which include the common and accepted meaning of the word "phobia". North8000 (talk) 18:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- William Arvey, if you care to give the full definition that you pulled those words out of context from... Certainly you can't be saying that they said that all aversions are phobias. In the meantime, here's the one for phobia from dictionary.com:
- "a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it. "
- North8000 (talk) 18:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- North8000, it really does seem like you're taking issue with the use of the "phobia" in homophobia. That would seem to relate strongly to etymology. This really has been very well covered territory on the talk page of this article. A quick search through the archives will provide you with plenty of reading material in the form of past discussions. The definition on this page is what is supported by reliable sources. What exactly are you suggesting that we change? Henrymrx (t·c) 18:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- North8000, as has been stated before words do not always follow their exact etymology. Antisemitsm means discrimination againist Jews not all semites (which would include Arabs and Iranians). Racism when it was coined was similarly challenged as should have meaning the study of race. The new use of the -ism wasn't firmly established until much later. If you had cared to read the history of this page you would know this. One could also argue that homophobia really DOES come from fear. A fear that homosexuality will become mainstream. A fear that oneself could be gay or be influenced by gay people. I highly suggest you read the history of this talk page before commenting again as this topic is one of the most covered on this page. Etymology is not always the way a word is used in the english language. PERIOD.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 18:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- North8000, I don't appreciate the allegation of bad faith. The entry I quoted was the one relevant in this case: its meaning as a combining form in compound words. It is is you who are mistaken in confusing this with the meaning of the free-standing word 'phobia'. William Avery (talk) 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry if I said it badly. But could you provide the full definition that you found? North8000 (talk) 19:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- North8000, it really does seem like you're taking issue with the use of the "phobia" in homophobia. That would seem to relate strongly to etymology. This really has been very well covered territory on the talk page of this article. A quick search through the archives will provide you with plenty of reading material in the form of past discussions. The definition on this page is what is supported by reliable sources. What exactly are you suggesting that we change? Henrymrx (t·c) 18:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Your first answer (including and parallel to race) is founded on a presumed answer to the "is it a choice/behavior vs. an embedded attribute?" debate. Second, it skipped all of the other types of opposition (e.g. opposition to the societal normalization of it) Finally, and most fundamentally, an aversion does not equate to a phobia. E.G. an aversion to eating liver does not mean a phobia of liver, an aversion to conservatism does not mean a "phobia" of conservatism. North8000 (talk) 17:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- First of all, we've had this before. "Opposition" to homosexuality is a cloak for homophobia (one cannot be "opposed" to it, just as one cannot be "opposed" to someone being black or white). Secondly, "-phobia" also means aversion, so most of what's mentioned here is warranted. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- About 80% of the content of the article. These are the parts that are about mere opposition or disdain for homosexuality, or opposition to the societal normalization of homosexuality, or to efforts opposed to those I just listed, all where there is no particular "phobia" aspect. Here are the three largest scale examples:
- Misplaced Pages controversial topics
- All unassessed articles
- B-Class psychology articles
- High-importance psychology articles
- WikiProject Psychology articles
- Unassessed Discrimination articles
- Unknown-importance Discrimination articles
- WikiProject Discrimination articles
- B-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
- WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
- B-Class sociology articles
- Mid-importance sociology articles
- B-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
- Mid-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
- WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles