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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Misplaced Pages. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Misplaced Pages policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. This may also apply to some groups.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, we have discussed this issue on a talk page, and we reached stalemate in our discussion.

Location of dispute

• Spore (2008 video game) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Example (talk · contribs)
• Example2 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Me and Example2 (talk · contribs) are having a bit of a dispute about Spore (2008 video game). Some of the references in the article support the genre being a god game, others support the genre being a life simulation or a simulation game. I think we need to come with a way to have both listed in the article, as all references seem reliable.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried talking about the issue with Example on the article talk page, but I need some extra input on what I can do here to move forward with resolving this dispute, as there are numerous sources supporting the different genres.

How do you think we can help?

Direct me to ways to resolve this dispute, or where I can get assistance in resolving the dispute. We need to come up with a compromise as how to move forward with the article.

--Example (talk)

1.1.1 Opening comments by Example2

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Statements that this game's genre is simulation are simply untrue. No policy, guideline or essay on Misplaced Pages demand that we spread lies in article just because the misled reliable sources stated so. --Example2 (talk)

1.1.2 Spore (2008 video game) discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

The dispute at hand seems to be to me that there are multiple possible genres to the article, and many sources backing up the different genres, however the issue of which genre best fits is still an issue. A mediation cabal case might be useful here, the assistance of a third party editor could assist in working out a compromise that works well. Example3 (talk)

Sune Sik, Duchies in Sweden

• Sune Sik (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Duchies in Sweden (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Edit warring by two Swedish editors (1 and 2 below) who have teamed up, as they have done previously, to go against the opinions given by WP:3O editors. The conduct of user Kuiper is always full of personal ridicule, false accusations and twisted facts. He has stalked me for years, and I would like to have an inter-action ban as recently has been granted on Commons. Links given on the talk pages of the related articles show how he has behaved. The content dispute is regarding whether or not an academic theory from the 18th century, cited by experts in 2003 and 2007, can be included in an article.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Pieter Kuiper (talk · contribs)
• Andejons (talk · contribs)
• Czarkoff (talk · contribs)
• ItsZippy (talk · contribs)
• SergeWoodzing (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Sune Sik, Duchies in Sweden}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

WP:3O, diskussion on the talk pages of the two articles and of Dukes of Östergötland

• How do you think we can help?

Give neutral opinions on the content disputes, adjust content to the benefit of the articles, inter-action ban as requested, help exert whatever discipline is possible on anyone behaving disruptively.

SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Sune Sik, Duchies in Sweden discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I think that before we work on the specific content issue here, we should deal with SergeWoodzing's request for an interaction ban with Pieter Kuiper. I have informally mediated a dispute between these two users before, and they have a long history of disputes. I think the request for an interaction ban is reasonable, if only to prevent further drama. I'm in the process of filing a request on this at ANI. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The thread is up at WP:ANI#Request interaction ban between User:SergeWoodzing and User:Pieter Kuiper. — Mr. Stradivarius 04:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:19, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The twisting of facts and incessant unnecessary arguing is still going on. Should it be discussed here instead - or is double discussion what is intended? SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I tried to exit the discussion about Sune Sik before, but as I am stated as a side of dispute here, it seems I have to serve this duty. So, as I see it, the problem is in absence of consensus on whether to include the medieval theory about the ducal title of Sune Sik. The opponents of inclusion claim that this theory is fringe and thus was consequently dismissed by modern studies. The proponent of inclusion (SergeWoodzing) believes it to be notable, true and worth inclusion. Personally I would prefer this theory included with references about its relation to present day theory. I was not participating in other articles discussed here. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I have now added a source which indicates that a reliable publisher today (2007) considers the 18th-century author worth mentioning. And yes, I have asserted that the theory is "notable" and "worth inclusion", but I have never asserted definitely that it is "true". Very few people have ever written anything notable about the Sune Sik grave, and the few things we know about him have all been recounted only in that context. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

1. I do sincerely believe that that must effectively resolve the dispute.
2. As the other parties ignore the due process of dispute resolution, this case should be probably resolved on the grounds of lack of the content dispute.
3. (suggestion) You might want to find more sources to support Your position. Though I think this one does the job, the more references You give, the better coverage You provide. Additional benefit could be from the information that could be added to this page.

Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:25, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

As SW says, no one has disputed that the content he tried to add to Sune Sik is largely correct. I do believe that Boraen described Sune Sik as a duke, but reserve judgment on exactly it should be described.

The matter is, instead, whether this is relevant. For me, what was proposed in an academic thesis 300 years ago is only of interest if it can be tied to a longer academic debate: are Boraen's claims about Sune Sik taken seriously today? So far, I have seen nothing to suggest this. SW has claimed that modern historians have studied Boraen's paper, but have not said anything about what they write about Sune Sik. Until I see either that they consider his claims interesting, or a modern, reliable source that discusses Sune Sik bring up Boraen, I will consider him irrelevant. That Boraen can be used as a source in some contexts should not be taken as a sign of his relevance here.

As far as the spill-over debate at Duchies in Sweden, it seems to no longer concern Sune Sik at all. As it has barely started, I don't see why the discussion page there cannot be used.

Andejons (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Currently the article is a stub, and thus (in my opinion) no WP:UNDUE issues could be raised. Apart from that, the first the first application of ducal title is an interesting fact, so I don't see any problems with inclusion. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

A 1724 student's thesis cannot have any bearing on the first use of a ducal title. If Boræn wrote about a duchy of Östergötland in the 12th century, it was a gross anachronism. Rubbish does not get notable by being old. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 09:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Aside from catchy wording, I see strong personal opinions, but I see nothing to back them up. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Would anyone else please step in here so that this could be resolved? Andejons (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Looking over the Sune Sik article, it appears that the sources were over-analyzed to the point of original research. The article acts like there is a dispute on the person's existence, or on the person's status as a prince. If that is the case, the article should clearly state this information. Right now, the article reads more like a debate, than a neutral encyclopedia entry. Alpha_Quadrant 16:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Zoophilia

• Zoophilia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Another user and I cannot agree on content of article, and we keep reverting each other back and forth. I want the edit war to end, but I also don't want to leave the article in its current state with lots of lost information (which is what the other user wants).

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Plateau99 (talk · contribs)
• Someone963852 (talk · contribs)

User insists that I am "pro-zoophilia" even though I am trying to deal with the article from a neutral-POV. User constantly reverts edits and erases large chunks of the article claiming that such chunks are "original research" when in fact those chunks are cited by mostly scholarly sources. I want the edit war to end.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Zoophilia}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Discussion on talk page is going in circles and is not resolving anything

• How do you think we can help?

Stop the edit war, allow the article to be brought back to the way it was on November 12, 2011 (before the edit war began)

Plateau99 (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Zoophilia discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

In particular, I strongly oppose User:Someone963852's desire to eradicate the terms "zoosexual" and "zoosexuality" from the article, even though there are scholarly sources which back them up. To eliminate the terms without even mentioning them would be pushing to article in a POV direction (in this case, anti-zoophilia).

To prevent me and Someone963852 from reverting each other indefinitely, a solution should be reached Plateau99 (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

If you had been paying attention (instead of reverting every single thing I edited), you would see that the terms "zoosexuality" and "zoosexuals" were merged under the Terminology section. I changed zoosexuality and zoosexuals to zoophilia and zoophiles respectively for consistency with the article's name (as I mentioned multiple times before on the talk page and edit history).

Please stop thinking that everyone is "anti-zoophilia" if they made a change you disagree with. Someone963852 (talk) 23:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

This is not about pro or anti zoophilia -- this is about removal of information. In your most recent edit, you have gotten rid of most of the arguments in the "arguments for zoophilia" section. Those arguments should be brought back because they were fully cited; granted, some parts needed more citing, but that's what Misplaced Pages is all about: constant improving. Your reverts are not improvements, they are a step backwards. In addition, the correct terminology throughout the article should be "zoosexual" -- this isn't "pro-zoophilia" bias, it is because of the zoosexuality sources I listed on the talk page. And your comparison between zoosexuality and "pedosexuality" is not a good one. Zoophilia and pedophilia have nothing to do with each other. In fact, that was in one of the arguments you erased. Plateau99 (talk) 00:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

It might seemed like I removed a ton of information, but that's because you were the only one editing the pages for months. No one cared to recheck the sources or remove original research. I came along and removed the ones that were "bad," so they all add up after those times.

Also, the materials you added weren't "improvements". Actually, they were a step backwards for the article because they were filled with original research and non-neutral POV materials. Most of those original research and non-neutral POV material came from the "arguments for zoophilia" section, so I removed it. Not because I'm "anti-zoophilia", but because they weren't constructive for the article.

My edits (mainly removal of original research, non-neutral POV material, unsourced additions, poor/ unreliable sources, irrelevent materials, claims that aren't backed up by sources, opinions) are trying to make the article fair and neutral, but you keep reverting them back to the "pro-zoophilia" slant. Someone963852 (talk) 00:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

How many times do I have to tell you that my intention is not to make a "pro-zoophilia slant" in the article? If anything, you're making an "anti-zoosexual" slant in the article by censoring information. The only reason I am not undoing the changes you've made right now is because I know that if I did it, you'd revert it 2 minutes later.

The fact is that your edits to the article are wrong and they should be reverted. The information which you claim is unreliable and irrelevant is very much relevant and well sourced. It isn't up to you to decide what is and is not relevant in an article.Plateau99 (talk) 02:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Now this discussion is going in circles again with you (being pro-zoophilia and all, but claiming you're not ) accusing others of being "anti-zoophilia" when you disagree with their changes. Someone963852 (talk) 03:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi fellow editors (that's not at all cheesy is it?!). It might be a good idea if you take a short break from discussion with each other until someone can take a good look at the issue and start the process of finding the compromise you have so far not found yourselves. Relax and spend a couple of days reading other articles or something. A little time off will do you both some good. No harm in it anyway  fg 03:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Nope, not cheesy at all :). I'll read this over and give my thoughts on it today. Steven Zhang 15:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Haven't had a lot of time to look through the content that was removed and the sources that were provided for the content that was removed, but I will note the change of wording from zoophilia to zoosexuality. It's about how common the wording is in reliable sources. One must also take care not to give undue weight to marginal views. As the title of the article is Zoophilia, then changing every instance (or many instances) in the article of Zoophillia to Zoosexuality is not the right thing to do. I'll need some time to take a closer look at the content that was changed/removed and then weigh in once I've taken a look. Steven Zhang 22:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Royal Hospital School

• Royal Hospital School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Two users with a conflict of interest have been frequently removing content from the article and adding their association's email address to the body of the article. They have so far not discussed their behaviour on the talk pages where it has been mentioned.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Ian R R (talk · contribs)
• Anthal1845 (talk · contribs)
• JustResignGC (talk · contribs) (now moved to account RHSAMember (talk · contribs) on request)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Royal Hospital School}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have noted the issue on both the article and user talk pages but have received no reply. Edits have been re-inserted since I made the talk page edits.

• How do you think we can help?

Is it reasonable to delete an (albeit uncited) statement which is relevant and which all parties know to be true? Is it OK to insert an email address into the body of an article in that way? Is it OK to have a reference to a facebook group in that way (does this differ from having as link to the RHSA's own website?)

JustResignGC (talk) 04:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Royal Hospital School discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

There is a section in the Royal Hospital School (RHS) article about the Royal Hospital School Association (RHSA), which is an alumni association for RHS. Contained in that section was a statement that leavers from RHS no longer join the RHSA and that RHS no longer collects subscriptions for RHSA. All editors involved in the dispute know this to be true, as the other two are both officers of the RHSA. However, the other two have on several occasions removed this statement without asking for sources or any normal Wiki behaviour. I believe this is because the statement is an embarrassment to the RHSA and the editors therefore have a conflict of interest. The statement is relevant in that it speaks to the current relationship between RHS and RHSA. There has certainly been no question raised as to the truth of the statement.

In addition, both Ian R R and Anthal1845 have persisted in adding their email address into the body of the article inviting those interested in the RHSA to contact them, which is unencylopedic.

Furthermore, in the box on the right to the article were links to two online resources for RHS alumni - the first being the RHSA and the second being a popular and well-established Facebook group called RHS Arms. Ian R R and Anthal1845 have persistently removed the second of these links.

I should state my own conflict of interest. I am an administrator of RHS Arms. Quite separately to that I am a member of RHSA and have been involved for some time in a dispute between members of RHSA and the general committee. However, I believe my edits have at all times been within the wikipedia guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustResignGC (talk • contribs) 05:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am a neutral party in this dispute, and I have never seen the article before, and have no conflicts of interest. This dispute looks like it can be solved quite easily by paying attention to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. I'll take each of your concerns in turn:

• It is indeed reasonable to remove uncited statements. Misplaced Pages's policy of verifiability says that any uncited statement may be challenged and removed. However, it may be possible to cite this statement using a primary source such as the school's website (although please note the restrictions on using primary sources outlined on the linked page).
• Email addresses shouldn't go directly into articles, because Misplaced Pages is not a social network, and also should not be used for promotion.
• The Facebook link shouldn't go in the article, per Misplaced Pages's guidelines on external links. If it was an official Facebook group of the school itself, then it may be worth including, but the Facebook group of the alumni association does not qualify, I'm afraid. However, it may be possible to link to it indirectly by including a link to the Open Directory Project using the {{dmoz}} template.
• It is fine to have a link to the alumni association website, but this shouldn't go in the infobox. All external links apart from the school's official site should go in the "external links" section at the bottom of the article. Have a look at Misplaced Pages's guidelines on external links for more advice.

I hope this comment has been helpful! If you have any questions, feel free to ask them below. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius 06:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, to clarify on that last point, the school's official site should go in both the infobox and the external links section, but not in the article body. — Mr. Stradivarius 06:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I would add that Misplaced Pages is not the place to continue your real world disagreements. If all of the editors involved had spent their time here in adding proper references, and properly referenced material, to the article, rather than pursuing agenda related to their various conflicts of interests, then the article would not be such a mess. If "GC" is one of the people involved in one of these real world disagreements, then User:JustResignGC will need to get a username change (see Misplaced Pages:Changing username). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I will cease using that username. I have also found a source for the material. However, I was under the impression that the correct course of action was to add a citation tag? I will tidy the article up as set out above. What is the correct course of action if the behaviour continues? JustResignGC (talk) 07:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I edited certain sentences on this article because they were demonstrably untrue. For instance it says that "the School has stopped collecting subscriptions", this is not in fact the case as the school is still collecting subscriptions and has no plans to stop over the next two years. It also says that new pupils no longer automatically join the RHSA - this is misleading as they haven't "automatically" joined for decades. Writing it in this way makes it look as if is a recent thing; it isn't and hasn't been for decades. Also one of the "citations" is not openable and is no longer on the website it points to sothat has been removed.

Its a shame that "RHSA Member" hasn't the courage to admit who he or she is instead of hiding behind that name, especially as some of the administrators on RHS Arms Are not RHSA Members. He or she knows who I am yet they haven't the courage to step forward.

Any discussion on the article should take place on the article talk page. For now I will simply point out that some of my edits were reverted AGAIN by User:Ian R R and that this has once again be done with no discussion. In fact, my edits to Ian's talk page have been deleted. If the only way I can engage this user is via the Dispute Resolution page then how the heck are we supposed to collaborate? Surely this user is in contravention of 3RR? (None of the links were broken by the way.)RHSAMember (talk) 19:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian R R (talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Some points from both of the last comments.

First, Misplaced Pages editors do not have to disclose their identities. RHSAMember's previous username was, I felt, provocative, so I suggested a change. They are now using RHSAMember which, in my opinion, is compliant with the username policy (since it indicates they are a single person who happens to be an RHSA member; and does not imply they speak on behalf of the organisation). Incidentally, attempts to "out" the identity of an editor usually lead to the person responsible being blocked from editing.

Since all conflicts of interest have apparently been disclosed, it is irrelevant from Misplaced Pages's perspective, who exactly RHSAMember is, and whether some, all, or none of RHSAA's members are also members of RHSA.

Ian is fully entitled to delete messages from his own talk page, per WP:BLANKING.

This noticeboard can be used for resolving content issues (i.e., what is in the article) as well as user conduct issues - in fact, content issues are this noticeboard's primary purpose.

I haven't checked whether either of you have broken 3RR, but you should keep an awareness that editing warring the information in and out is not permitted.

I do begin to wonder if the disputed statements about the precise current position of the school with regard to RHSA actually belong in the article at all. If a newspaper (or The Good Schools Guide or something) were to comment on the significance of some change being made, then that would be a lot more convincing. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Demiurge. In my view Ian R R HAS continued the edit warring. I think the statement is important to set the context for the association today, which is entirely different to what it was in the past. The same reference also spells out that the school's headmaster has resigned as president of the association - would this make good content? Thanks for your help, and apologies for having to resolve this here. RHSAMember (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Remember that the article is about the school, not about the association. The school was established more than three hundred years ago; the association was established just over eighty years ago. Perhaps the relationship between the association and the school was different two years ago - or forty years ago - to how it is this year. But equally, perhaps two years from now it will be different again. In the context of the eighty year history (and the three hundred year history) such changes are not very significant. What is significant, and suitable for an encyclopedia, are the basic facts - there is an association, it was established in 1925, it has some thousands of members.

To go beyond those basic facts, I think we need better sources than what we have. The source you're providing is not independent, as it is the website of the organisation itself. The most reliable part of it is the letter from the headmaster (assuming it is quoted correctly), which is careful to emphasise a continued friendly relationship between the school and the RHSA. To find the statements which may be interpreted as supporting the other disputed material, one has to read down through the allegations about pineapples and so forth (which are, seemingly, part of a campaign to encourage members to vote in a particular way in an upcoming election). That is not the best sort of reliable sourcing. Again, if we had reliable independent published sources that mentioned the situation or circumstances, then the case for including the material - based on those sources - would be stronger. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Demiurge. I agree that users should not need to disclose their identity; but unfortunately RHSAMember chose to disclose mine in the edit history page - by adding comments, one of which is bordering on menacing, on the edit history, somehting which I do not even know how to do. My position within the RHSA is well known to RHSA members as a well supported elected official and I will not be pursuing this user within the court system even though I beleive some of his comments are tantamount to making threats, and as such could make him criminally liable. As a member of the RHSA General Comittee (GC) I know my facts are correct as regards the collection of subscriptions. However I am willing to desist from changing the entries anymore as long as RHSA Member gives the same undertaking, and just leave the entry with the facts upon which we are both agreed, also he would have to stop using threats in the edit history page, and remove those threats and comments forthwith.

I believe this to be a fair resolution.

Ian

Ian, no menacing edits were made - that's simply a ridiculous claim and your talk of there being grounds for legal action is nonsense. I said I was watching you, which was intended to be a humourous way of saying that I would keep an eye on your edits - no menace was intended and I don't think any would reasonably be inferred. I will continue to watch you, and I am happy for you to watch me too Ian. I will continue to edit the article - you do not own that section of the article. I accept that the article is about the school and so the Association itself is of only marginal interest and only important information should be included. The Headmaster's resignation may constitute such a fact and is in the HM's letter, so perhaps I will add that if nobody objects. Also , I'd point out that there is other uncited information in the RHSA section at the moment - based on the advice above I think what we need to see is independent evidence (ie not on the Association's own pages) of all of that information (apart from basic stuff such as the name and so on) so that we can get everything to the same level of verifiability. I'll have a look for sources over the next few days, perhaps you could do the same Ian - and then we can delete anything that remains uncited. Hopefully this discussion can now move to the article's discussion page and we can check back with Demiurge if there are any other bones of contention.

Cheers, RHSAMember (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Ian, both links appear to be working for me from two separate locations. Can you confirm which you are having a problem with? RHSAMember (talk) 06:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

RHSA Member is clearly not wishing to come to resolution so I will consider my position and what further action to take. He or she is clearly hell bent on his or her course while I am trying to show the facts, facts which as a member of the GC of the RHSA I am more privy to. I will not continue this discussion on these pages and ask that RHSA member emails me - he or she has my emeil address - to resolve this. I would ask that Demiurge puts a block on either of us editing this page to stop this dispute escalating.

Ian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian R R (talk • contribs) 13:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say you are considering "what further action to take" Ian? Which edits of mine do you have a problem with (I've only made one to the article since the discussion above but I can't see what your problem is with it)? And I'll ask again - which link is broken? I do not wish to email you as I do not wish to reveal my true identity. I fear that my position as a member of the RHSA would be put in jeopardy if I did so. If you won't continue the discussion then we will not be able to reach a consensus, which is what Misplaced Pages is all about. There is no instruction or suggestion above to cease editing the article, and I will not take such an instruction from you. RHSAMember (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to avoid lengthy discussion of the history of the article, because this is (or was) principally a dispute over what content should be in the article, not a dispute about editor conduct. However, it's worth pointing out that you two (and perhaps one or two other people) have been at this same issue for at least the best part of a year now.

Ian, you re-added the email address into the article four times in just over a week, with the third and fourth times being after an experienced editor removed it with an edit summary clearly explaining why it shouldn't be in the body of the article. RHSAMember, your edit summaries have repeatedly focused on addressing people by first names or positions they haven't identified themselves with, telling them what you think of them or their behaviour, and so on - this is unacceptable, edit summaries are intended to describe edits or the reasons for edits.

I don't consider any of the edit summaries to constitute credible threats. In fact I think "I am watching you Ian R R. Please don't remove stuff or I'll have to put a Rockett up you!" is probably the worst there is. Now, this is just how well brought up Englishmen of a certain generation address their peers, and we're far too busy on Misplaced Pages worrying about how not so well brought up Englishmen of that generation behave, so it's not a grave concern. However, it would be much better to keep that sort of thing in emails or on Facebook, than in edit summaries.

Ian, I'm glad that you've specifically stated that you will not be pursuing court action, however I would still strongly suggest both of you refrain from comments about what conduct you believe is criminal or otherwise actionable. (Or indeed about any "further action" outside Misplaced Pages.)

If you believe there is information in an edit summary that unreasonably reveals private information about someone, or needs to be suppressed for some other overwhelming reason, then you should follow the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight - be sure to provide a link to a WP:DIFF to identify the exact content.

Ian, to include an edit summary, you simply put text in the box marked "Edit summary" before saving your change to the page.

I don't believe we have independent reliable sources for the headmaster's resignation from the association as President of the association, or for a change in how membership fees are collected, or for the claimed membership number of 3000+. So I believe none of these should be in the article. The question of what external links and email addresses should be in the article, I think we've covered already.

I can't personally block anyone from editing, however given the nature of the dispute and the fact that you both have a conflict of interest, there is some merit in Ian's suggestion that both of you should stop editing the article - or that section of the article - altogether. This may have to be enforced if the dispute continues to deteriorate.

I have no objection to moving further discussion to the article's talk page. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Demiurge. I will take on board your advice on edit summaries, hopefully you can see they were never malicious. To the small group of people who would have been interested in such things the identities of the participants would have been obvious from their chosen user names so I didn't feel I was outing anyone, but I won't do it again. Thank you for pointing out that legal threats are inappropriate and hopefully you will have noted that I never made such a threat, veiled or otherwise, nor would I. I have taken your comments about the article's actual content on board and will edit it to reflect what you have said. I agree that if the disagreement escalates it would be appropriate to prevent either of us editing the article, however I still feel that I should be allowed to edit it in a constructive non-confrontational manner and will aim to do so, let's see how it goes. I would still argue that it is better to correct rather than delete and would ask Ian to edit in that manner. I am very satisfied that whilst I've been far from perfect my edits have always been in good faith (although perhaps not always the edit summaries!) and would be aggrieved if I was prevented from editing the article. RHSAMember (talk) 20:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

History of pottery in the Southern Levant, History of pottery in Palestine

Closed as referred to Requested Moves, see closing comments, below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Mansoor Ijaz

This dispute seems to have been resolved by the removal of material on the recent controversy. Please note that I don't think there is a problem with re-adding other material on recent events, as long as it complies with WP:BLP. If there are more disputes on the page that cannot be solved with talk-page discussion, feel free to list them here again. Mr. Stradivarius (talk) 07:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Lemonade Mouth

• Lemonade Mouth (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Well... I'm not really sure if I'm asking the right place, but an anonymous user has pretty much been going crazy adding information to this article. It's not that the edits are in bad faith (at least not from my viewpoint), but at lot of them add redundant, misspelled, and/or badly worded information, most of the time where it's not needed (particularly in the character sections, which, in my opinion are overdetailed as it is). I really don't want to get in an edit war with this user, though I fear I may have already done so.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• 108.35.207.130 (talk · contribs)
• Purplewowies (talk · contribs)

I'm not sure, but I might have broken 3RR (if I have, please feel free to block me).

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Lemonade Mouth}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Posted a message to the user's talk page, asking why the user feels the information they are adding should be in the article.

• How do you think we can help?

I'm not sure if I'm even asking about this situation in the right place, but I hope you can help figure out what exactly should be done.

Purplewowies (talk) 04:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Lemonade Mouth discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

• It's alright, this board is a fine place tom come if you're unsure where to go (and was a primary reason I created it.) Having a look at their contributions, they do seem to add a lot of information to the article, perhaps somewhat reduntant or with a few errors. Discussing concerns with certain edits with the particular editor is important. I don't see a 3RR violation, indeed I don't really see any edit warring. I'll add the page to my watchlist and pop a note on their talk page asking them to engage in discussion with you regarding the article. If issues persist, feel free to send me a message on my talk page. Best, Steven Zhang 04:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Note: After I posted to the IPs talk page, they continued editing the article without discussing the concerns that have been raised by others (including the filer of this thread). I've had the page protected for a day, to try and encourage discussion. If that doesn't work then we will have to explore other options. Steven Zhang 22:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• The user edits at predictable times of day (I looked at their contrib history after seeing how many edits they had made to Lemonade Mouth) and it appears that once they figured out they couldn't edit the article (or even without figuring that out), they just went over to editing Terra Nova (TV series) (which is pretty much the only other thing the user has edited) without attempting to discuss about Lemonade Mouth at all or even acknowledging that the message had been received. I'm not even sure they know they're getting the messages. I feel tempted to ask the user to discuss on the talk page in the article itself, but I won't do that because I know I'm not supposed to. - Purplewowies (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:MMANOT, WT:MMANOT

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

This user clearly shows signs of thinking he owns the WP:MMANOT page. He clearly shows no interest in working along side fellow Wikipedians, refusing to listen to any open suggestions, clearly this user values his own opinion over to those who have fresh ideas from what he says. I was offering some very useful suggestions at the WT:MMANOT discussion page, as with the criteria on the WP:MMANOT as it is right now, only whatever is considered a 'top tier' promotion is safe, whereas any other promotion, such as BAMMA and EliteXC are put on shaky grounds. He refuses to even acknowledge what I'm saying, going as far as saying that it is me who isn't open for suggestion. Now I've always had the best interests of all pages on Misplaced Pages, and I am a team player so I cannot see how he came up with that theory, just because I questions the criteria on WP:MMANOT, a page I should point out that HE created. I noticed that many of the users who offer suggestions always ask him, as if he owns the page, which is a direct violation of WP:OWN. No-one should have to ask for permission from him to edit the page, especially as it seems that he is the one with the final say everytime. Here is the last comment he put on the WT:MMANOT page -

'Actually, the reason I haven't bothered to respond to all your statements is because it would be a waste of my time. It's clear you have a viewpoint (which you repeat/repost over and over) and that no facts will dissuade you from your beliefs. Since you've made it clear you value no opinions but your own, why should I bother? Answer--I shouldn't.'

After he left this comment, I put in a reply on the page, stating that my intentions are in the best interests of MMA subjects on Misplaced Pages, which is why I ended by saying that we need to work together on it, not fight each other at every corner of each suggestion or each remark. After 5 days of my reply to that comment, he has not written back, so this is why I have taken this to ANI.

The user believes that anything that follows the criteria that he created is the best system to maintain MMA promotions and fighters. If you read the WT:MMANOT page, you would see towards the end of the page, a user states that promotions and fighters who meet WP:GNG, which as we all know is the real 'trump card' when it comes to deciding whether a page can remain on Misplaced Pages or not, is what really should be followed. The user overlooks this in favour of what his criteria says, and chooses which particular criteria trumps the very basic criteria any page needs to meet. For example, he has had numerous pages, such as Reagan Penn, who is the younger brother of BJ Penn and also has plenty of independent sources about him, deleted, whereas he would keep a fighter who hardly meets WP:GNG, just because s/he meets a certain criteria on the WP:MMANOT page, which mostly is 'the fighter has fought in a top tier organisation'. Now there has been a debate about this on WT:MMANOT, in which I use the example of Travis Fulton. Travis has fought in professional MMA 307 times, and only three times he has fought for what is considered a top tier promotion. He has fought at UFC 20 and UFC 21 as well as once in the WEC, yet every other fight he has had has been with promotions that do not meet the criteria set on this page in question. There are hardly any sources reliable, multiple media sources that talks about Travis Fulton and if you look that his page, you would see that he has also done Boxing and Vale Tudo, yet there are only FOUR (4) references on him, two of them are for the two sports I just mentioned, one dates back to 1999 and the other one is probably his most famous fight which was his latest one as of 23rd November 2011. This guy clearly fails WP:GNG, yet he chooses to defend this guy and says that he is notable. Notable only in his criteria more like.

I have called many times for the WP:MMANOT page to be rewritten so not only will it put WP:GNG first before any other criteria, but soften the criteria already there. He claims that people only want to know about the big leagues and the smaller ones don't matter and it is this reason he chooses whether a page is notable. Anyone who at least competes once in the UFC, or Bellator or Strikeforce is notable in his mind but he clearly has it wrong. The most worrying thing about this is the fact that other users ask permission from him to keep a page on Misplaced Pages because it meets his criteria.

Clearly this user needs to realise that policies and criteria he writes doesn't trump what WP:GNG states is notable, and someone need to remind of this, as well as loosen his grip on WP:MMANOT. I have put down suggestions how to improve the page, even going a head with a near full and completed recommended change to the page, changing some of the stricter criteria, soften them up and for criteria supporting deletion, and even mentioned that a page that already meets WP:GNG can remain on Misplaced Pages with no issues attached. Again he refuses to comment on this and says it is a useless system. I know that regardless this page could always be overlooked in favour of WP:GNG but at least it wouldn't appear too strict on those recognised as anything less than a top tier promotion. This is a big issue for any MMA related Topic and it needs to be cleared up pronto. Thank You so much for reading this, please help us out, and remember all whole discussion can be found on WT:MMANOT. BigzMMA 12:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Papaursa (talk · contribs)
• BigzMMA (talk · contribs)

Papaursa seems to have the main control over the WP:MMANOT page, in which anything mentioned he must agree with to be part of the page, a violation of WP:OWN.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

I have made Papaursa now aware that he has been reported to ANI through his talk page.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=WP:MMANOT, WT:MMANOT}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I tried to calm the situation down a bit through the WT:MMANOT page, saying that we shouldn't be fighting over every little thing when it can be resolved, however, he has refused to reply back, citing he has no interest in listening to what I have to say.

• How do you think we can help?

To have the User realise that WP:GNG is the system that all MMA related topics must follow first before any criteria on WP:MMANOT. Also the user needs to loosen his grip on the page and allow the criteria on the page to be less strict.

BigzMMA 12:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:MMANOT, WT:MMANOT discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Clerk's Comment: BigzMMA, brevity is paramount. Your rambling posts don't really seem to have a point other than to complain that the guideline (Not Policy) is not right. Having read through the talk page I have a couple observations.

1. Please re-standardize your signature as per Misplaced Pages:SIGNATURE. Having SineBot come behind you to add the Username and Talkpage links is annoying as hell
2. Your first appearance on the talk page appears to be from the 18th of this month. If this is correct, it's been less than a week since you proposed the first changes to your demanding that the page change. Other contributors to the page may be away for Vacation or other personal reasons.
3. As it appears you've participated in other MMA items, it might be a good opportunity to sit down and review WP:N,WP:GNG,WP:POLICIES,WP:BRD, and WP:CONSENSUS.
4. Droping a combative notice on Papaursa the way that you did is almost gaurnteed to not have a colegial interaction, but an adverserial one.

I'll post more discussion once Papaursa responds to your allegations. Hasteur (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• Furthermore please read and respond back regarding WP:SOAPBOX as it appears your talk page is being used quite extensively for that purpose to push your POV regarding notability of MMA events/groups. Hasteur (talk) 14:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I should point out that I began writing in there from the 15th November, not the 18th. Also I have legitimate points about this, Papaursa has been fighting me from the beginning of the discussion about changing things for the better. I have used WP:GNG as the base of my case, as he is using his guidelines to determine whether a promotion/fighter is notable, where he chooses to rate someone who has been in the UFC over someone that meets WP:GNG. My argument isn't rambling, but very detailed points as to why these guidelines hasn't been working and it needs to change. The user in question hasn't offered any suggestion as to a way forward with this, instead attacking my suggestions and even me, accusing me of being one minded, and the truth is that this page hardly matters to the main criteria all pages must meet. For this reason I would like to see this guideline either deleted or rewritten as for those who follow this as the system to determine notability, it can be made clear to them that no matter what, as long it meets WP:GNG, it is notable. The page is flawed and the user is enforcing a flawed system on a topic many people are very passionate about. BigzMMA (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

From Category:Notability Essays This category lists essays that contain the advice and/or opinions of one or more Wikiprojects on how they interpret notability within their area of expertise. These pages are not policies or guidelines, and editors are free to but not obliged to follow them during XfD's. Please confirm that you have read WP:ESSAY before we continue as you seem to think that this page is a full force policy or guideline. When you work on a collaborative essay, you are supposed to collaborate and not shout "This is wrong and the writer was wrong for having written it.". It's not just one user who is saying no to you, it's several saying that you are not reading it correctly. Elen of the Roads is one of the most levelheaded editors out there and is familiar with many portions of Misplaced Pages. Heed her advice (and the advice of others) as you are on the path to a short career in WP. Hasteur (talk) 16:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• I can confirm that I have read WP:ESSAY, I believe that the people who follow this are using it as a means to determine whether pages are notable, which is where my issue is. Because people do use this as a system to determine notability, it should be rewritten so it tones down the high standard that the page implies on MMA topics. I have had numerous pages that meets WP:GNG deleted by the same sort of users who use this guideline to determine 'notable' pages. I'm not saying that I want it changed because I had pages removed by them, but its because it puts other WP:GNG met pages in danger of the guideline's high standards. Also I agree with Elen of the Road, she made a good point about WP:GNG, which has now become the base of my argument against the guideline and the user who created it and is enforcing it. BigzMMA (talk) 09:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Please reconsider your last posting. If you acknoledge that the item is an ESSAY to help guide discussions regarding this subject area, and not the be-all end all for a Specific Notability Guideline, you have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt that it passes the GNG test. The essay in question points back in 2 seperate sections to a less specific guideline (Misplaced Pages:Notability (organizations and companies) for the organizations and WP:GNG for the individuals). As before you have said that people are using this essay to definitively shut the case on AfDs. Please provide examples of this. Finally Specific Notability Guidelines (and essays written like them) are designed to have a very narrow window that they apply to so that broader tests like GNG can be used when it doesn't really match the individual guideline. Please do not respond until Paparusa has answered your complaint. Hasteur (talk) 18:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
• User Bigzmma has accused me of many things in the past week, so let me deal with them one by one. First, on the notice he placed on my talk page about this he said I "have illegal binding control over" these pages. That's clearly not true since I have no editorial superpowers. Second, he has made about 20 postings about me on various WP pages--the one on his talk page seems to be his favorite. I particularly like his comment "I've never had a problem with taking in other people's opinions." To show this is blatantly false I would refer you to WP:ANI archives 724 and 725, as well as his repeated appealings of his bans (you can find where he removed them on his talk page's history page when the file gets noticeably smaller), and at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA. Next, he claims that the MMA notability pages are all my idea. My talk page shows that I was asked to participate in the discussion, some of which can be found at WT:MMANOT and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/Archive 5. Looking at WT:MMA and its archives shows that consensus has been the driving force about MMA notability for both organizations and fighters. User Bigzmma has repeatedly rejected consensus and comments/opinions from other editors (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Andrew Leone and the aforementioned references). Finally, WP:MMANOT clearly says "it is a specific supplement to the overall policy of Misplaced Pages:Notability relating to mixed martial arts and in no way supersedes it." There are also references to many of the WP notability policies. It also says that essay may be used at AfD discussions. As far as I can tell he's upset with me mainly because I disagree with him and support consensus. Papaursa (talk) 03:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S. He was upset at me and wanted to know why I hadn't responded to every point he had made at WT:MMANOT, so I told him the truth. That also seemed to upset him. He shouldn't ask questions if he doesn't want an honest answer. Papaursa (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay I'm going to address that last point first just because it crawls under my skin, which is this thing your saying that your comments 'upsetting me', I asked you to address my points, which many were direct answers to your points and comments, so if anything, it is you that got upset over my comments. Your refusal to answer me was the last straw, in which I messaged different unbiased users to get their opinion of how to take it from there, and left a message to try to have us take a peaceful way of moving forward, yet again you refused to answer me, but I left it 5 days before I brought it on ANI in case it was just that you weren't able to read it within the time. I can take an honest answer, why else did you think I didn't take your answers then?

Now then back from the top. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA, paragraph 6, User:Osubuckeyeguy says this 'The question isn't whether the org employs a few notable fighters, it is whether the organization itself receive coverage by independent sources and passes the other criteria outlined at WP:MMANOT.' And then Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ryan Shamrock (fighter), in which Papaursa starts the conversation by saying 'I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these fighters meet the notability criteria at WP:MMANOT.' I should point out that he nominated Philip De Fries, who was just two weeks away from making his UFC debut, so clearly the user has proved that he does not look for information on whoever he nominated, otherwise he would not have put him for deletion in the first place. Also was used again later on in the page by User:Mdtemp, saying ' None of these fighters currently meet the notability criteria at WP:MMANOT'. It is also worth pointing out that he nominated, and somehow successfully, deleted Alan Omer (two time BAMMA veteran, first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion, multiple articles on him about being 'Prospect to Watch) And finally Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Andrew Leone, which again he states 'I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these fighters pass WP:MMANOT either.' He nominated guys like Tim Newman (soon to be 3 time BAMMA veteran), Jake Bostwick and Jamaine Facey (both a total combined of 14 Cage Rage fights (11 Bostwick, 3 Facey)), Diego Vital (two time BAMMA veteran and former title challenger) and Reagan Penn (brother of BJ Penn, many independent coverage reports on him and his fights, two time ProElite veteran). Clearly there is no information gathering going on when Papaursa nominates pages for deletion.

Now Papaursa, let me ask you one question, if someone added in a notable organisation into either the top or second tier organisations list without your knowledge or consent, would you leave it where it is, knowing it belongs there anyway? Its just because that Osubuckeyeguy asked on the talk page if DEEP should be added to the second tier organisations, which by the way, it meets all criteria supporting notability by what they main page says. I agreed that it should, but no-one else has took part in that conversation, not even you, so I can assume that, with a 2-0 vote in favour of it, I can add DEEP to the second tier page, which as I am writing this I ready have. Now if your right in saying that your not the overlord of the page, then I can expect to see DEEP in the second tier organisations every time I look at the page?

Again I have to say that I messaged a couple, not '20' as you stated, of users what I should do, because your lack of fair co-operation in dealing with discussion on WT:MMANOT means that you are giving the impression that you control the page and that you are refusing to even listen to suggestions because it suits you to look tough to anyone who reads the conversations. The page may not necessary be your idea, but remember Caesar didn't create the Roman Republic, yet he took it all and turned it into the Roman Empire, something that can be said about how you treated the page since it's first conception, now you dictate whether a page can remain on here base on the criteria written on there, which, by looking that the pages you nominated in the not too distant past, you clearly prove that you don't look for information on them before you randomly nominate pages.

Now I am not going say I've been perfect at this, but I know when things are not right about pages up for deletion, you say that many people agreed with all the deletions, yet if you took the time to read some of the comment, you'd see things like 'Why Delete Bashir Ahmad', in which the guy defending the page says that the guy meets all the criteria written on the WP:MMANOT page, has multiple articles based on him from Bloody Elbows and Sherdog, The fighter is a pioneer in his home country and is recognised throughout the nation yet no-one answered his comment before deletion. Also another user points out that Alan Omer was the first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion and a two time veteran of the promotion, a promotion that meets all criteria supporting it's own notability through WP:NOT and WP:MMANOT. He has been part of many 'Prosect Watch' articles by Bloody Elbows and Sherdog, again both sites are agreed upon by Misplaced Pages to be reliable sources of information and there are also articles that talks about him being/becoming champion for the promotion, so again proof that you shouldn't always take the words of the majority, especially seen as no-one else seemed to be looking for information on any of the fighters in question.

Yes it does say "it is a specific supplement to the overall policy of Misplaced Pages:Notability relating to mixed martial arts and in no way supersedes it." on there, but it doesn't mean that your following it, lets be honest you wrote things like this just so you couldn't be accused of what you are being right now, yet your history of referring pages for deletion on the bases of WP:MMANOT proves otherwise in your case.

I know I already addressed this but I'd say it again, basically I have not got upset by your remarks and comments, I addressed them all with very interesting point that requires your feedback to prove me wrong (as you seem to actually want to fight me at every corner of each comment being made), yet when you not only chose to ignore them but to say you shouldn't answer them when I asked you why you haven't talked about them, that was just insulting for anyone who asks anything on this page, as well as proof that you do feel like you have some majority control over the runnings of the page. I find that your control over the page needs to be removed, and allow independent, unbiased yet knows many things in the area of MMA topics users to take responsibility of the overall running of WP:MMANOT and WT:MMANOT. It's like I said, people use this system to determine whether a page is notable or not, and with you disallowing anyone to rewrite some of the strict guidelines in there, I think it's safe to say that a new editor/s should be in control overview this page, otherwise it will get to the point where only 'top tier' promotion are allowed on here and fighters would have to fight 3 times for them to even be allowed a page on here (I doubt it will happen because of WP:GNG, but the fact that it can happen on that page means it needs to be reviewed). BigzMMA (talk) 11:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Ok, let's disect your latest WP:TLDR missive
  1. I should point out that he nominated Philip De Fries, who was just two weeks away from making his UFC debut, so clearly the user has proved that he does not look for information on whoever he nominated, otherwise he would not have put him for deletion in the first place. WP:ABF,WP:CRYSTAL,WP:BURDEN.
  2. It is also worth pointing out that he nominated, and somehow successfully, deleted Alan Omer (two time BAMMA veteran, first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion, multiple articles on him about being 'Prospect to Watch) Again WP:ABF,WP:CRYSTAL,WP:CONSENSUS (It does take more than 1 person to nominate and successfully delete)
  3. WP:NOTVOTE says Misplaced Pages works by building consensus. When conflicts arise, they are resolved through discussion, debate and collaboration. While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus, not an end in itself. Your "2 to 0" snap attempt to use a poll to assert the consensus is not correct. We have a policy called Bold, Revert, Discusss meaning any editor can make a change to almost any page they want. If annother editor disagrees with the bold (or not so bold change) the edit can be reverted. At that point there is uncertainty in what the consensus is, so we go to the talk page to discuss susinctly what the problem is.
  4. In no stretch of the immagination should you expect a response to your long and very much WP:TLDR postings instantenously. Some editors can only work on WP on the weekends, or might be taking an undeclared vacation. We have 2 clock lengths here at WP. The 1 week AfD clock and the 10 Day PROD clock. The idea is that it's a considered period to let editors evaluate and weigh in on the merits of the article.
  5. Since you missed it before. A Specific (or Subject) Notability Guideline is designed to be very narrow in what it will give it's blessing on in terms of being notable for the exact reason that if you can't get the pass from the SNG there's always the General Notability Guideline. This is why WP:MMANOT is so narrow in what it.
  6. Obviously you have not read WP:OWN and looked at the page, otherwise you'd see that it's not Paparusa controlling the page, but multiple editors disagreeing with your interpretation of the statements.
• Can we try to adress SPECIFIC issues other than "The bathwater needs to be thrown out because it may have scalded a baby and the parent should have their child taken away"? Hasteur (talk) 12:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• 1. There were many articles and sources about Philip De Fries making his debut at UFC 138 before he did, ranging from the UFC's announcements on their website, to independent articles from both Britain and the United States, his name was easily searchable at the time, even if he wasn't to fight at the event and there are many articles related to him without the UFC debut being part of it. It was clear in terms of 'top tier fights' the user clearly didn't look at this fact, otherwise he would of left him well alone.
  2. I cannot see how Alan Omer fits into WP:CRYSTAL, I already said he is the first BAMMA Featherweight Champion, something that happened in early 2010, and that he competed for them twice, again, both easily found through BAMMA 2, BAMMA 3, and the articles for these pages. There are also 'Prospect Watch' articles on him through two of the biggest independent MMA sites on the internet. Yes it does take more than one person to 'nominate and successfully delete' but you cannot possibly say that anyone who nominated the page for deletion did look him up properly, plus someone brought up the facts I've stated for him and were shot down by, ironically, Papaursa who actually stated 'He won a vacant/new title of a second tier promotion at BAMMA 2 and lost it at BAMMA 3. That's not sufficient to meet WP:MMANOT and I see nothing else to support'notability.!!' Now according to the WP:MMANOT page, BAMMA meets all criteria supporting notability, which means its a notable organisation, right? and if Alan Omer won a championship from them, regardless of whether he was the first or not, he has still won a title from a notable organisation, which makes him notable through the Fighters section of MMANOT. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
  3. The user who asked about DEEP wrote about it on the 12th this month, and no-one commented about it until I did on the 18th, and after no other users said anything about it by yesterday, which was the 25th November (nearly 2 weeks after it was first brought up), I could safely assume that no-one disagreed with having it on the second tier side of it, which meant I can put it on there. Now I noticed that Papaursa finally put in his thought about it after I said that I did, and I don't know whether he actually agrees with it, or just trying to not look weak by removing it knowing that two users agreed to the move with no other users disagreeing with it, which still means it was, as you say, consensus. Either way it's going to remain there unless proved it isn't worthy of being there.
  4. The fact the user still refuses to comment to my direct answers/comments, regardless of 'how long the paragraphs are' is not a good enough excuse, and one that we both know this user isn't using, instead he just simply says 'He shouldn't have to answer my points'. I will not use shorter paragraphs if it doesn't get my full point across, what is the point of trying to talk about your point of view if you cannot explain it fully just because someone cannot be bothered to take the time to read it. If you engage into a conversation, you will have to listen and talk about everything that person says, now naturally when we talk face to face about something we don't need to say everything at once, as we can break it down bit by bit. On this, everything needs to be made clear otherwise no-one will understand you, and it can even make the conversations longer.
  5. The problem with WP:MMANOT is what your saying is right about it. The criteria set on the page just doesn't narrows it down, it sets it on a one road system, and only a few vehicles are allowed to use it. Now I have make a suggested layout on the talk page, one that follows most of what the page says now, but it doesn't need to put such a huge weight on the pages it relates to, to make them meet the criteria as it is now and determine whether they should be kept on here makes its much too difficult for these pages, We all know that WP:GNG makes MMANOT useless at times, but tell that to the people who are using it to determine notability, so they know that if a page doesn't meet MMANOT they must make sure that it at least meets GNG, and they do their research on the topic before they decide to put it on a AfD.
  6. Papaursa has met one action that implies he is violating WP:OWN - 'An editor disputes minor edits concerning layout, image use, and wording in a particular article daily. The editor might claim, whether openly or implicitly, the right to review any changes before they can be added to the article. (This does not include the routine correction of egregious formatting errors.)' This can be seen in WT:MMANOT, where users are suggesting adding in criteria, examples of notable organisations etc.

Okay then, here are the issues -

• Papaursa's overviewing of WP:MMANOT needs to be replaced with an unbiased, fair user/s who have extensive knowledge of MMA related Topics.

• WP:MMANOT badly needs to be edited to be softer on the criteria that fighters/promotions needs to meet on there, so users who decide a page's notability based entirely on the criteria on the page can decide more clearly and not use small, undocumented ideas about dealing with them, such as the trump card system unofficially in place for it.

• Make the point more clear through the page that WP:GNG is needed to be looked at when a page doesn't meet MMANOT, make a reference for it to each 'criteria supporting deletion' part of the page for users to look at GNG before deciding.

• Again, use the page to inform users to fully look into the page in question before deciding notability, in other words, tell them to do Google searches, particularly the Google 'News' search for new things on the page, and remind them that things like foreign language pages and reports made on it that wasn't published online still count supporting notability.

That is pretty much it really, just heavily improve WP:MMANOT and loosen Papaursa grip on the page. BigzMMA (talk) 12:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

• So all you want is for me not to edit certain pages and for us to throw away the consensus agreement that was WP:MMANOT in favor of what you wrote. This from someone who attacked and threatened at least 4 editors for disagreeing with him, recreated articles that were deleted at AFD because you claimed none of the other 9 editors understood, changed article links to thwart AfD discussions, and while adding nearly 60K to WT:MMANOT managed to never see value in any opinion he didn't already have. You still don't seem to understand that any editor can edit any page and discussions are decided by consensus. Papaursa (talk) 01:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

What I want is for you to stop acting like everything to do with MMA has to go through your approval first. Your not even an administrator yet you feel you can edit whatever you want and feel that anything must seek your approval before even meeting a page. You cannot possibly say that WP:MMANOT is anywhere near a perfect system, hell I even admitted that my suggested layout isn't exactly the Mona Lisa but it answers many of the problems with the criteria set out now, plus I have already stated under it that anyone can help with improving it still by adding in their suggestions. Remember I did said (and you can still see it) that it follows the same/similar criteria set out by you, but tweaked enough to answer some of it's problems.

Threatened 4 editors? Because of their (you included) discriminative actions, I said I was going to take action against you, which you damn knew well that I meant I was going to report you to ANI, I was just beaten to the punch and once blocked, no-one tried to listen to me again.

Yes, those 9 editors didn't understand that UCMMA is a major player in the MMA community, especially in the UK MMA Scene. Everyone here recognises them as one of the 'Top 3' in this country, along with BAMMA and Cage Warriors. There are plenty of articles out there on them, but you know, I'm tired of repeating all this to people who don't bother to look it up. My case for them is on WT:MMANOT if you want to know my case, matter of fact its worth pointing out that Astudent0 was so impressed with my case for it on the page, he suggested that I put it in my Sandbox, edit it a bit and tidy up the references so that I can prove to the Administrators that review it that it is what I've been saying all along - A notable organisation. And remember, Astudent0 has the same issues against me as you do, so for him to agree with me on it means I've been right about it all along.

'while adding nearly 60K to WT:MMANOT managed to never see value in any opinion he didn't already have'? Lets be honest every point I made on that page is a good point, nothing on there is crap talking and, if anything, its you that doesn't appreciate the honesty or the accuracy of another one's opinion. You choose the base your arguments to keep a fighter on Misplaced Pages based on 'whether he fought for a top tier promotion' I have already pointed out that that system is a massive flop with my example of Travis Fulton, yet you disregard what I said and instead just added in a small amount of information about his boxing record. So when I say there is a trump card system within the page on how to decide a notable promotion/fighter, and you deny it but say things like 'I'd take a single UFC fight over multiple articles on the person' then tell me truthfully is that the sort of user who has the best interests of the pages at heart? Your choosing what to follow and its being proved the more you engage into this conversation. And you think your suitable to overview a page like that? The only trump card that should existed with this page involved is GNG beats MMANOT, and the majority of criteria met on there beats the minority of criteria met on there.

Majority consensus doesn't mean that they are right, it means that the majority agrees to something. It is because of this system that, for example, in criminal courts innocent people get sentenced for murder, whilst rapists get away from it, just because the majority agreed to the decision. I would of though you'd understood something like that, guess not.

And just like the example of consensus I used, I appreciate the system, so long as the decision is the right one. BigzMMA (talk) 12:45, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It has just come to my attention on WT:MMA that many, many notable organisation's event pages are being deleted or forced to be merged. Promotions like Bellator, World Victory Road and even a UFC event has been either deleted or forced merged. And guess who is part of this Hasteur? thats right our old buddy Papaursa. These pages meet GNG and MMANOT, yet he continues to vote delete on these pages. Its what I've been saying all along, he hasn't got the best interest of MMA topics on Misplaced Pages, he has abused his powers given to him to edit pages and the choice to delete them, for this reason I not only I want to see his grip taken off MMANOT, but to place a lengthly ban on him and the other users who voted delete so other users can repair the damage they have inflicted on Misplaced Pages. BigzMMA (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Just linking to the pages doesn't demonstrate the actions, we need specific examples of Papaursa wielding the policy in it's current form incorrectly. This is your final warning to not assume bad faith and to not make personal attacks. Comment on the content not the contributor. If you think the page needs to be entirely deleted, file a Misc. for Discussion ticket. If you think that it needs to be discussed by a larger group, hold a Request for Comment to solicit external viewpoints to determine if and what needs to be changed about the essay. If you think this is a user behavior issue, hold a Request for Comment/User on Papaursa. I'll keep what I think the problem is to myself pending which route you decide to take as I've gone through the essay, the various articles you have held up as being harmed by the essay, and the wikiproject discussion pages and have formed a viewpoint. Hasteur (talk) 15:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Template:Ancient Mesopotamia

• Template:Ancient Mesopotamia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I have recently updated the template. This has apparently attracted the attention of an anon user (editing from 2 different IP addresses so far, see list) who now wants the entry Urartu changed into Ararat and wants Proto-Armenian language added to the template. While I have no real problem with adding the language, changing Urartu to Ararat is unacceptable since Urartu is the accepted scholarly, and by far most well-known and most-used name for that specific cultural/political entity.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Zoeperkoe (talk · contribs)
• 76.232.253.33 (talk · contribs)
• 75.51.171.39 (talk · contribs)

User has not responded to my suggestions to take discussion to relevant talk page. Also, I think the user's edits have to do with Armenian nationalism, given his insistence on adding Proto-Armenian language to it as well, and given the fact that the only other edits that IP 75.51.171.39 made was to ask another editor to revert changes made to Armenia-related pages (link to user contributions).

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Template:Ancient Mesopotamia}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have suggested to take the discussion to talk page and I have asked the editor on his two talk pages to explain the reasons behind his insistence to change Urartu into Ararat.

• How do you think we can help?

That is why I am here; I have never had a discussion with an anon who does not respond to my questions. Page protection would be my first guess, though.

Zoeperkoe (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Template:Ancient Mesopotamia discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Kars

• Kars (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

There is POV pushing by erasing the different versions of the name of the city of Kars in other languages, especially of particular countries and ethnicities that ruled the city and/or settled there. The erasing of the city’s name in the other languages does constitute as vandalism for several reasons regarding the article of Kars: The discussion(s) in the talk page between Turkish/Azeri and Armenian Wikipedists does not settle the "dispute" of the city’s history and its names in different languages at all, because the discussion from both sides (which is still ongoing for years) has nationalist overtones and is an attempt to ignore and overide or alltogether erase the periods of the city’s history each side sees as "incovenient". And despite the near identical pronounciation of the city's name by the certain ethnicities who ruled and/or settled in this city in the past and/or who presently live is relevant. The issue here is not about which ethnicity ruled the longest or had the most impact.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• MarshallBagramyan ‎ (talk · contribs)
• Kansas Bear ‎ (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Kars}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have tried talking about the issue with user MarshallBagramyan ‎who erased the etymologies of the city. His explanation is that that the etymologies are almost identical and by citing which ethnicity ruled the longest or had the most impact, which neither justifies this erasing nor addresses the issue, but is an attempt to ignore and suppress them. I have also given the example of Istanbul and Names of Istanbul for comparison because many versions of that city's etymology is used in many languages (also by by nations which never ruled it, unlike in the issue of Kars which is only about the nations that ruled and/or settled ther whic are delibaretly erased), to this user for the second time. This user has not yet responded. I have also written to user Kansas Bear, who also reverted and has suggested using the talk page. This user has not yet responded. Unfortunately as I stated before this issue has not been dealt in the talk page of the city’s article which is still ongoing for years, because of the nationalistic disputes of Turkish/Azeri and Armenian Wikipedists.

• How do you think we can help?

Administrators should give their neutral opinions for resolving this dispute and prevent the erasing of the etymologies and periods of the history section of Kars, and exert whatever discipline is possible on anyone erasing them.

Noraton (talk) 12:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Kars discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I already posted my explanation on Noraton's talk page and I reproduce it here. The problem is that it's impossible to draw the line on what languages to then exclude. Armenian and Turkish are included for obvious reasons but it becomes a little more difficult to justify the inclusion of other languages just because it was ruled by this or that empire for a period of time or at one time had or has members of a certain ethnic group. The only reason Azeri is being added, for example, is because there's a new community that was established there after the USSR fell. But there's really nothing to point to, say, a specific cultural or social contribution that they have made to the city. It would be the equivalent of adding the Armenian spelling to Glendale, California or Fresno or the Russian and Ukrainian alphabets to Brighton Beach. The names in the lede should reflect a real historical and tangible presence of a certain country, and Russian is far more justifiable than is Azeri or Kurdish or even Georgian in the case of Kars. A meaningful conversation took place and a large number of participating editors agreed to this compromise. Similarly, other editors were asked to provide sources to bolster the case for adding the alphabets but none were forthcoming and, in one instance, one editor even refused to do so. There has been no attempt to suppress the etymology of the name (which sources now indicate to be Armenian), and all the other alphabets essentially reproduce the Armenian pronunciation of the city.

It should be noted that in his revert of my edit, Norton (apparently blindly) removed additional information that I had added in the main body of the article, including verifiable sources and grammar tweaks.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not see any attempt by user:Noraton to use the talk page to discuss the changes he/she has made to the article. The addition of other names of the city would appear to be a diversion, with no mention of the changes made to referenced information within the article. If Noraton has a true concern over the names of the city, why is there no attempt by user:Noraton to discuss this on the talk page, as per BRD? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I put a proposals for ending the naming disputes of Kars through an arbritation by neutral third opinions of administrators in the city's talk page. As the ongoing disputes are not going to be solved by each side anytime soon, the best option is to refer this to the by neutral third opinions of administrators. Unfortunately the problem is, that the will very unlikely be solved at all in the talk page, due to nationalist disputes between the Turkish/Azeri and Armenian Wikipedists who are not attempting any meaningful solutions but continuing it with no apparent intention of solving it. And any constructive discussion is falling on deaf ears from both sides in the talk page. That is why I requested a Dispute resolution. Although I have overlooked the other impartial editions of the user MarshallBagramyan when I automatically reverted his/her erasing of the city's etymology in the other relevant languages, unfortunately this user has also taken a nationalist agenda like the rest of the Turkish/Azeri and Armenian Wikipedists by being uncompromising and partial. That is why a neutral resolution from administrators who are expert in this and impartial is necessary to deal with this issue and give their recommendations and changes.

Noraton (talk) 21:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

@Noraton: I'm a neutral mediator/clerk here.

• I'm afraid that there is no process available at Misplaced Pages such as "an arbitration by neutral third opinions of administrators in the city's talk page". Content at Misplaced Pages can only be decided by consensus and even our highest adjudicatory body, the Arbitration Committee, will only make decisions regarding behavior, not content.
• There does seem to be a pre-existing consensus about which versions of the name should be included in the article. The fact that some arguments or positions may not have been represented or considered in the discussion leading to that consensus is certainly a reason to renew the discussion about the matter, but it does not make the existing consensus any less of a consensus. While there is no doubt that consensus can change, it doesn't change until a new consensus is reached. The way to obtain a new consensus is to discuss it on the article's talk page and, if a new consensus cannot be reached, to either (a) simply let the old consensus stand or (b) ask other editors to join in the discussion by making a request for comments.
• "Vandalism" has a fairly specific meaning at Misplaced Pages and the things you allege in your request here do not constitute vandalism (see here). Making repeated false accusations of vandalism can itself violate Misplaced Pages civility policy.
• I'm not making an accusation here, just providing some information: Please remember that the proper process to obtain consensus is not to simply continue to revert edits with which you disagree. To do so is an edit war which can cause you to be blocked from editing, especially if the three revert rule is violated, especially in this case which would appear to me to come under the special discretionary sanctions applicable to Armenia-Azerbaijan matters.
• In regard to those sanctions, if you feel that the conduct of other editors in this matter clearly violate Misplaced Pages conduct policies, then you may file a complaint at the Arbitration Enforcement Noticeboard but I would caution you, first, that on a quick look I do not see anything which I would consider to be such a violation, second, that such complaints can easily boomerang and, third, that such a filing will not solve the content issues about which you are concerned.

Since this issue is best resolved by discussion at the talk page, I am closing this request as premature. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Flag of Western Sahara

• Flag of Western Sahara (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

If you look at the edit history of this page, you'll see it's primarily a history of reverting between edits making it a two-item list consisting of Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Flag of Morocco and edits redirecting it to the first of those two links. The entire page history looks like one big edit war. I opened an RfC in March, and presented three options for the page:

1. Deletion as patent nonsense, as given the subject is a geographic territory, it has no flag
2. Disambiguation, or a two-item list, containing the two flags used in the region (see example)
3. Redirecting to one of the two links listed (see example)

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Night w (talk · contribs)
• Reisio (talk · contribs)
• NickCT (talk · contribs)
• Omar-Toons (talk · contribs)
• Seb az86556 (talk · contribs)
• Tachfin (talk · contribs)
• Xiquet (talk · contribs)
• Zscout370 (talk · contribs)
• Koavf (talk · contribs) 

I've included pretty much every major editor involved in the page. The most recent editors involved are the first six. The user with by far the largest number of edits is Reisio, who appears to be involved in almost every instance of warring on the page, including the latest.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

 Done.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Flag of Western Sahara}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

The RfC was closed without consensus in March. The edit warring stopped, but has started up again today.

• How do you think we can help?

The purpose of this page needs to be determined with a solid consensus so that this activity can stop. Any neutral opinions is most welcome, as is any advice about other forums to seek assistance, although it'd be good if we could come to a decision here.

Nightw 07:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Flag of Western Sahara discussion

• Only one acceptable solution Simply put, only one flag is intended to represent Western Sahara, so that is the flag of Western Sahara. If some other entity(ies) don't think of it as representing the territory, that's fine--it's not Misplaced Pages's place to declare that it is or isn't the official or approved flag of the territory, it's our place to say that someone created a flag that is supposed to represent it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi everyone, and thanks for posting the dispute here. It looks like this dispute has already been well-debated, and that it has been going on for some time, so let me see if I have the facts straight here. The real-world facts pertinent to this dispute seem to be the following:

• The flag in question is used by the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, but it was also in use in the area before it was adopted by them
• The geographical area of Western Sahara is disputed territory, currently mostly controlled by Morocco, with the remainder controlled by the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic who are exiled in Algeria

I think the deletion option is an obvious non-starter, as the term "flag of the Western Sahara" is fairly likely to be searched for, and readers searching for that are probably looking for valid information on which we have articles; so the page should probably have something in it. So we are left with the other two options, redirection and disambiguation/list article. There do seem to be cases for both positions. On the one hand, the redirect option is supported by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - not many people who are searching for "flag of the Western Sahara" are likely to be looking for the flag of Morocco. On the other hand, the disambiguate/list option is a valid attempt to uphold the neutral point of view policy, as we don't want to give the impression that the flag is an official flag of the territory in question, when it is in fact disputed.

In many naming disputes there is no clear best position to take, and discussion can go round in circles for years in some cases. In this case, however, I think we can have our cake and eat it. In my opinion, it is possible to satisfy WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and still keep a neutral point of view, if we do the following:

1. Redirect Flag of Western Sahara to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic.
2. Include a hatnote at the top of Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic leading to Flag of Morocco.
3. Edit the Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article so that its disputed status is clearer.

At the moment the Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article does not seem to be at all neutral, as should be apparent from phrasing like "When the country gains independence by means of a referendum and is internationally recognized ...". If we can do a proper job of maintaining neutrality in this article, then I hope that redirecting to it will be a lot more palatable to editors who have been in favour of the disambiguation/list option. Please let me know if I have made any errors in my assessment, and I would love to hear what you think of my suggestion. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 09:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There was an RfC, outcome was keep status quo. I've reverted to the RfC's outcome; now if you want to discuss this again, go for it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I read the RfC discussion, and according to SlimVirgin, who was asked to close it, there was no clear consensus for a change. That is not the same thing as "keep the status quo", so it's probably not a good idea to keep reverting while this discussion is underway. I am making a suggestion that I hope will be palatable to both users who were in favour of redirecting and users who were in favour of disambiguation, and I'd really like to know what you think of it. As you seem to be in favour of redirecting, I would be particularly interested in hearing what you think of my suggestion of putting a hatnote on the top of Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and editing the article to make it more neutral. Looking forward to your input — Mr. Stradivarius 16:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello Mr. Stradivarius, and my thanks for taking on this mammoth dispute which has largely been ignored by everyone but those Night w listed, who virtually cancel each other out. I was tempted to endorse your proposal, because of hat notes being merely what they are, and because it would be a form of compromise that also mostly stuck to the status quo, which is not incredibly terrible at present.

My worry, however, is that a hat note referring to Morocco at the top of flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic would be a way for people to bring this dispute to even that specifically named article, and it would just go on and on until Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic itself became a divided article half devoted to Morocco.

Few people have stuck with this dispute for as long as I have, you see, and most might not recognize one side's blatant lies for what they are, because they weren't there and why should they sift through years of edit histories to find out the truth. For example Night w recently said that the "disambiguated" version "has been the version since the page's creation", and while I remember clearly that it was not, everyone else not completely accepting his edit as one in good faith would have to dig back to the beginning to see it as the lie it is. These people will say anything, and they will take whatever tiny advances they can get.

You see flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic used to be at flag of Western Sahara for years. The move to where it is now and implementation of a redirect itself was a compromise brought about by certain people and their agenda, but that wasn't enough for them, they're still at it even now. What assurance is there that after some action taken as a result of this discussion they will not keep going. Will you be there the next time to remember? I doubt it. I'm sorry but I for one cannot assist in the continuance of this POV spread. No one is going to type in "flag of Western Sahara" looking for information about Morocco. No one, ever. The idea is ludicrous. A compromise at this point is not a compromise, it's just another step in the victory of their agenda.
¦ Reisio (talk) 21:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Reisio, and thank you for your comment. First of all, please comment on the content, not the contributor. Remarks such as "one side's blatant lies" and "these people will say anything" are really not helping this dispute. Please realise that you will need to compromise to resolve this dispute, so you should probably start getting used to the idea now. As for your concerns about the content, I think a hatnote is necessary for a) resolving the dispute, and b) for the small percentage of users who would be looking for the flag of Morocco. As the flag of the country that is currently controlling the region, it is not unbelievable, and indeed if you dig deeper into the Google Images search that you linked to above, you will actually find images of the Moroccan flag.

Regarding the name, it may indeed be the case that we should have the article at Flag of Western Sahara rather than Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. This depends on what the common name for the flag is, and not so much according to whether the flag is official or not. In fact, I just did a quick google search, and I get 800,000 hits for "Flag of Western Sahara", and only 140,000 hits for "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic", so I think you are probably right. We should move the Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article to Flag of Western Sahara, and have a hatnote at the top of the article there. I hope this will still be acceptable to the users who previously opted for the disambiguation/list option - as I see it, the key to the neutrality of this solution is in the editing of the flag's article itself.

So, about the editing part, here's what I envision. In addition to the hatnote, I think we should clearly mention the disputed nature of the territory in the lead section of the article. This should definitely be a couple of sentences long, or maybe a paragraph if necessary. Also, we should have a section in the body of the article devoted to the dispute, after the sections describing the flag itself and its history. This section should have a {{main}} link to a relevant article, probably Legal status of Western Sahara. I trust that between yourselves you can craft a section that satisfies everyone, but even if you have problems with this, that is not in itself a reason to abandon this solution. After all, dispute resolution will still be around, so you can always just file another post at this noticeboard. I hope I've addressed all of your concerns, but let me know if there is still an aspect of this solution which is bothering you. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius 03:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't actually see moving the content back to flag of Western Sahara as a compromise at all, but a step back towards where we never should have left in the first place, so to that specifically I am not opposed. Nor am I opposed to a hatnote at an article at flag of Western Sahara, but to one at flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic with the current redirect in place.
I see "a section in the body of the article devoted to the dispute" as inviting further dispute. There are a great many articles on Western Sahara and the various names and things associated with it, and many of them have such a section, and each section of each article must be monitored vigilantly to preserve NPOV despite the bulk of each article not being about the conflict itself.
While I do think the article content should be at flag of Western Sahara, I don't think putting it back there will do anything for resolving this dispute (which of course is not by itself a good reason to not do it, merely an observation); IMO it will probably accelerate it.
To be clear: I do not oppose your proposal, but doubt it will do much to end this dispute.
Thanks again just for your participation.
¦ Reisio (talk) 04:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) For the record, Reisio, we can all see the edit history and see that this is not the case. When the page was effectively moved to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic in September 2007 by Zscout370 and "certain people and their agenda", this article was reincarnated as this version, which remained stable until you redirected it (two years later) in July 2009, and continued to do so—in January 2010, September 2010, November 2010, February 2011 and finally yesterday, after being reverted every time. In addition, please read up on assuming good faith of your fellow editors. I have never accused you of harbouring an "agenda", etcetera, and as you have no proof that I do, please afford me the same respect. Nightw 03:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Stradivarius, for your suggestion. I think it is a good suggestion overall, though I would like to hear what some of the other participants think, as many have not been active since yesterday. The most accurate solution in my opinion is deletion, as the idea of an apolitical territory having a flag is absurd, but that will likely hinder navigation. I'd actually like to see Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic moved to Sahrawi flag, as it represents many things to do with that nation (not just the state). For optimal aid to navigation, redirecting the page in question there would be a good idea, as long as a hatnote is maintained for the ambiguous term. Nightw 03:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that you like my suggestion. As for the precise article name, we can work that out later by a requested move if it is going to be disputed. The important part to agree on for now is my suggestion of the redirect/hatnote/editing solution. Let's wait and see what the other participants think about it. Best — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 04:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Sure, the proposal is completely acceptable. I don't even see that much of a difference... As long as it's a redirect, some sorta headnote would even clarify things. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Great, so that's three editors definitely on board, and from Koavf's position it looks like he's on board too. So we still need to hear from NickCT, Omar-Toons, Tachfin, Xiquet, and Zscout370. I think I'll wait another day, and then I'll post a message on their talk pages if they haven't responded. If they then don't get back to us within a reasonable timeframe - say 1 week, so by the 4th December - then I'll go ahead and implement the change. If anyone disagrees, then we can take my suggestion to RfC and see if that makes consensus for it clearer. Does that sound like a good plan? — Mr. Stradivarius 10:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. You can probably cross Xiquet off that list, as it doesn't look like he's been active for a few months. Nightw 11:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Good plan. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 16:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment from NickCT - I for one do not like the proposed solution. I appreciate Mr. Stradivarius's WP:COMMONNAME argument, and as a fan of commonname I think it has merit. Several counterpoints; 1) The only reason that the common name for flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (FoSADR) is "flag of Western Sahara" is b/c no one has any idea what the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is (i.e. these guys aren't particularly notable), and so it's much easier to call their flag the "flag of Western Sahara". I mention this, b/c I think it speaks to the "common biases and limitations" clause of Misplaced Pages:Search engine test. As a sidenote, I tried to find other examples where a common name flag isn't the actual recognized flag of a region but came up empty handed. I thought Flag of Tibet would be promising, but apparently the flag of Tibet is still recognized by the Chinese government. 2) WP:N would probably say we should display both flags. Note in other examples of disputed territories (e.g. Flag of Abkhazia, Flag of Northern Ireland) we display both flags. 3) Probably most importantly, there is WP:V. I doubt many will disagree that the FoSADR is simply not a widely and/or officially recognized Flag of Western Sahara. Using the FoSADR article would imply that it is, and as such, would simply be wrong. 4) While I appreciate WP:NPA, I think a quick review of the edit history of Flag of Western Sahara, will show that one editor has continuously, over a period of years, pointed Flag of Western Sahara to FoSADR while ignoring the objections of a whole slew of other editors. Seems like WP:SOAPBOXing to me. I respectfully suggest that if that one editor didn't keep slow motion edit warring, this topic wouldn't be up for WP:DR. Conclusion - I'm not going to strenuously object here. I think Stradivarius has done a good job trying to find WP:N, and I could live with some kind of heavily qualified hat note at the top of the article. That said, I think more ideal solution solution would be a well crafted RfC, that encourages more response than the previous RfC we had for this topic. NickCT (talk) 17:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I don't understand why the option of deleting has been so hastily cast aside when it could so easily solve the dilemma. Yes, people are likely to search for "Flag of Western Sahara", but they are equally or more likely to search for "History of Western Sahara", "Culture of Western Sahara" or any of the other things that are sections of Western Sahara. Why not merge and redirect both articles to a section titled simply "Flag"? --FormerIP (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

For the same reasons moving the article content back from flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic to flag of Western Sahara will not stop this dispute. The issue is that one side believes the flag exists on its own and is commonly named "flag of Western Sahara" regardless of who controls the majority of the territory, and the other side thinks the name "flag of Western Sahara" applies only to the flag of the nation currently controlling more than 50% of the territory regardless of history and convention. I have no objection to redirecting to a section of Western Sahara as long as it is clearly stated that this image — — or "the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic" has been known as and continues to be referred to by name as "the flag of Western Sahara", even if it is also stated that it is currently more formally named the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, even if it is also stated that the area occupied by Morocco uses the Moroccan flag. ¦ Reisio (talk) 02:05, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

If it was in a section of the Western Sahara article, both sides of that could be explained, without having an article title that might seem to take a side in the dispute. --FormerIP (talk) 02:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, I just foresee opposition to acknowledging the name being used for that particular flag, even if it is clearly explained. ¦ Reisio (talk) 02:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

re "Why not merge and redirect both articles to a section titled simply "Flag"?" - I think that a potentially good solution. NickCT (talk) 04:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Flag of Western Sahara shouldn't redirect to Flag of Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, no more than Western Sahara should redirect to Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. They are two separate distinct things. Re common name, if I search for Flag of Northern Ireland then I'm certainly not looking for the Union Flag (flown there officially) but for the Ulster Banner (used in sport events) and it's good to land on an article that isn't a redirect to neither and learn that it wasn't what I thought it would be. An encyclopedia is about accuracy (including in nomenclature) not about accommodating people in whatever misconception they might have had. Furthermore, there are more flags used to represent Western Sahara, than the one of Morocco and SADR; there is also historically the Spanish Francoist/colonial flag, regionally the Saguia El Hamra and Wad Ed-Dahab flags, probably even Morocco's old flags in parts of the territory and "Khat Shahid", a rival group of the Polisario (The current gov of the SADR), might as well use another flag variation. Flag articles aren't only about the current flag that often changes over time even in undisputed territories, the one of the SADR is the POLISARIO flag and never changed. So the proposed solution is a good faith attempt but it fails to address these points, additionally a hatnote about Morocco in the SADR article is inappropriate as they are entirely unambiguous (they don't even share one syllable), even if adopted I give it at best a month before being removed by good faith IPs/editors or emotionally driven editors who would rightfully say that it is completely unambiguous with Morocco. I suggest two proposals:
  

1. Keep it as it is and expand to include the historical and regional flag + a hatnote about the SADR flag (I don't see how that would hurt or POV-pushes anybody's side)
2. Redirect to Western Sahara, or a section there about the flags used in it.

Tachfin (talk) 02:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll support either of those options. But to me, having a section in Western Sahara about a flag seems about as absurd as the redirect itself. It also seems a little undue in such a high-priority article—no other country article that I've seen has a section on flags. A better place for such a section might be Legal status of Western Sahara or Politics of Western Sahara. Please note that this also extends to Coat of arms of Western Sahara, currently a redirect. Nightw 12:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Concur with Night. I prefer Tachfin's option 1, though option 2 seems feasible. NickCT (talk) 15:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Floppy disk hardware emulator

• Floppy disk hardware emulator (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

User:Guy Macon doing a lot of misbehaviours, angry editing

• "Plan of attack..." - explicit edit warring
• "Pizza connection fancies..." - the Italian conspiracy
• "I'm going to allow..." - enforcement-like editing
• Witch hunting any edit

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Guy Macon (talk · contribs)
• 137.204.148.73 (talk · contribs)
• Qwyrxian (talk · contribs) asked to be added

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Floppy disk hardware emulator}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Brief advices about misbehaviours, dispute avoidance.

• How do you think we can help?

Get attacking user understand that "which hunting" and "pizza connection fancies" damage wikipedia itself because of their "worst faith assumption" and "wikipedia time wasting".

137.204.148.73 (talk) 03:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Floppy disk hardware emulator discussion

Actually, you didn't notify all users at all. Myself, for example (Guy Macon pointed this out to me); and there are several other editors involved at that page. It looks to me like Guy Macon's concerns that you are Blackvisionit are well-founded, given that your edits are substantially similar to his, and due to the other real-world connections (all revealed on WP, no outing here). Are you saying that you are not User:Blackvisionit, and that the two of you have just made substantially similar edits, including edits that seem to bias the page in favor of products with which you have a COI? I find the edit summary on this diff particularly telling, given that neither your IP nor any other IP seems to have been editing the article at the time the last flare-up occurred. And, assuming you are Blackvisionit, then you've already been instructed that any edits biasing the article in favor of particular companies or types of emulators will result in a block. Is that what you're looking for here? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There appears to be an error in the "this diff" link above. Perhaps you meant to link to this diff? --Guy Macon (talk) 07:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Guy Macon's diff is the correct one. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted that Blackvisionit (who I have good reason to believe to be 137.204.148.73) owns a company that sells one particular type of floppy disk hardware emulator - the kind that is used on IBM-Compatible PCs. The content dispute is about whether the page should treat all floppy disk hardware emulators - PC, Mac, Commodore, Atari, various music synths - equally or whether it should be focused on the particular type of floppy disk hardware emulator that Blackvisionit sells.

Also, at the top of this page under "Purpose of this noticeboard", it says "This noticeboard is not for disputes which have been carried out only through edit summaries or which have not received substantial discussion on a talk page." 137.204.148.73 has engaged in zero talk page discussion despite multiple requests from multiple editors that he do so and has instead engaged in edit warring (He is currently at 3RR).

On a personal note, I welcome close scrutiny of my behavior. Nobody likes being told that they did something wrong, but I am well aware that I sometimes need correction. I have Asperger's syndrome and benefit greatly from any comments about my behavior and relationships with others. In my case, criticism is not rude - it is very much appreciated. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:137.204.148.73 reported -Guy Macon (talk) 02:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Blackvisionit --Guy Macon (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Telangana movement

• Telangana movement (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

There is a section that one user wants to be added and the other opposes it. There have been attempts to get mutual consensus and a 3rd party opinion was also sought. But nothing seems to have changed.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Vamsisv (talk · contribs)
• Ramcrk (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Telangana Movement}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Mutual discussion on talk page. 3rd party opinion

• How do you think we can help?

Both users have their POVs but not aware how the information should be captured on the article as per Misplaced Pages guidelines.

Vamsisv (talk) 06:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Telangana Movement discussion

For reviewers, this is the section in question. I haven't read it, but perhaps a primary reason for opposition is that it might seem excessive: perhaps it can be adequately summarised? Nightw 06:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution noticeboard
• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution