| Revision as of 01:55, 22 December 2011 editFormerIP (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers17,570 edits →WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV: r← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:44, 22 December 2011 edit undoJayen466 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Mass message senders, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,622 edits →WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV: reNext edit → | ||
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| :::Firstly, NPOV is only operates where there exist conflicting statements (to be construed broadly - I am not suggesting that images are per se excluded) of fact and opinion about the subject of an article. What we have here are conflicting opinions of editors about how to make stylistic choices in the presentation of an article. NPOV has no direct role in deciding that. It is something we decide by reference to our policies (so far as they are applicable), our MoS and, in the final analysis, our collective judgement. You are failing to draw this important distinction. The New York Times may be a reliable source for information about Mohammed. But it is not a reliable model for the editorial approach to be taken in Misplaced Pages. | :::Firstly, NPOV is only operates where there exist conflicting statements (to be construed broadly - I am not suggesting that images are per se excluded) of fact and opinion about the subject of an article. What we have here are conflicting opinions of editors about how to make stylistic choices in the presentation of an article. NPOV has no direct role in deciding that. It is something we decide by reference to our policies (so far as they are applicable), our MoS and, in the final analysis, our collective judgement. You are failing to draw this important distinction. The New York Times may be a reliable source for information about Mohammed. But it is not a reliable model for the editorial approach to be taken in Misplaced Pages. | ||
| :::Secondly, we routinely deny weight to sources if we believe them to be censored. Were it the case, for example, that we were able to determine that 80% of all sources concerning human rights in China were produced by Chinese state media, we would not take the view that our writing on the topic should lean 80% towards what those sources say about the topic. Of course, we would scoff at someone wanting to include unsourced information on the grounds that ''all'' sources are censored. But you know very well that this is not analogous to the present case. --] (]) 01:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | :::Secondly, we routinely deny weight to sources if we believe them to be censored. Were it the case, for example, that we were able to determine that 80% of all sources concerning human rights in China were produced by Chinese state media, we would not take the view that our writing on the topic should lean 80% towards what those sources say about the topic. Of course, we would scoff at someone wanting to include unsourced information on the grounds that ''all'' sources are censored. But you know very well that this is not analogous to the present case. --] (]) 01:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | ||
| ::::It's a matter of degree. If I understand you correctly, you appear to argue that all sources that do ''not'' show images of Muhammad (including Encyclopaedia Britannica, University Press publications by leading scholars like by ], and many other highly reputable sources, are censored, leaving only the minority that have numerous Muhammad images as acceptable models to follow. This of course is a handy rationalisation, as it means that all the sources that disagree with you are ''ipso facto'' disqualified from the pool of references. You yourself, rather than the literature, then become the arbiter of due weight. But how is that different from an editor arguing that all sources that do not give pride of place to their favoured theory are censored, and that therefore said theory should rightly take pride of place in Misplaced Pages? I simply cannot take seriously the idea that Britannica's Muhammad article (or for that matter, every sexologist or sex-education website that chooses not to show an image like in otherwise amply illustrated works discussing fisting) is "censored" the way the Chinese state media are censored – in the Muhammad case, not least because there are plenty of sources attesting to the rarity and generally ''unrepresentative'' character of figurative images of Muhammad in Islamic art. My whole point is that to the extent that we do present ''Islamic'' Muhammad imagery, we should represent it in correct proportions, giving most weight to mainstream rather than fringe art. To summarise, what your line of thinking appears to me to lead to is that we follow your POV, rather than a neutral point of view derived from and reflecting reputable sources. I appreciate that you believe sincerely and passionately in what you are saying, and that it reflects your idea of what Misplaced Pages should be, but I don't think it's philosophically neutral in either the general or the Misplaced Pages sense. Cheers. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font><font color="#0000FF">]</font>''' 02:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, should be obvious. Any specific application may not be obvious, but this principle should be obvious in itself. -- ] <]> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | ::Again, should be obvious. Any specific application may not be obvious, but this principle should be obvious in itself. -- ] <]> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | ||
| :'''Comment by others:''' | :'''Comment by others:''' | ||
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This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.
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Motions and requests by the parties
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Proposed temporary injunctions
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Questions to the parties
Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:Jayen466
Proposed principles
Images are subject to WP:NPOV
1) Images, like other article content, are subject to the WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE. In contentious cases, editors should make a good-faith attempt to base their selection and inclusion of images available for article illustration on the prevalence of the same or equivalent types of imagery in reliable sources on the article topic.
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- Proposed. Editors are generally given wide leeway in selecting article illustrations. But while the use of images for article illustration is often uncontroversial, and constrained by the pool of image files available, in contentious cases reliable sources should be used as a reference point to decide what types of images to include, and how prominently to include them. --JN466 15:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal is wrongheaded. Whilst reference to sources may be of use in choosing imagery for an article, it is not keeping with either NPOV or general WP practice to suggest that choice of imagery should duplicate what is found in a (hypothetical and elusive) average or typical source. NPOV is not a quest for an average. Our article on Justin Bieber, for example, does not have an abnormally high picture-to-text ratio and does not have washed-out love hearts in the background, even though these are things that may well characterise an "average" source on the subject. NPOV only applies to images insofar as they represent a "view" (ideological, rather than pictorial). What we are dealing with here, though, are views about religious preferences and about editorial decision-making, rather than views about the subject of the article. I would say this makes NPOV moot.
- However, even in the case that the images are held to represent a "view" for the purposes of NPOV, applying it would not give the result intended, because an honest examination of sources would not justify the removal of any images of Mohammed from the article (of course, "honest" here is in the eye of the beholder and it is likely that anyone examining sources will end up concluding whatever it was they set out to). --FormerIP (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that images of Bieber in reliable sources customarily feature hearts (notwithstanding the presence of a few such images on fan sites). But if, for argument's sake, 20% of images in reliable sources were of that type, it would be entirely appropriate for us to feature one too, to reflect a significant aspect of his popular reception. --JN466 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
What this seems like is that Jayen has already decided that there should be less images of Muhammad in the article, then goes out to try and shape existing policy to support that conclusion. To me, that is a backwards approach to editing. Tarc (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Given NPOV is non-negotiable I would have thought this was obvious... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- NPOV is indeed non-negotiable, but the heart of this dispute is conflicting interpretations of what it means to meet NPOV in this subject area. Tarc (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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- This seems clearly to be an attempt to craft Misplaced Pages policy around this one specific case. Actually, we've got well established, time-tested doctrine which is clear even here; what we have are a small handful of POV warriors trying to rewrite the rules or filibuster their opposition into submission, whichever comes first. It's ludicrous saying that "reliable sources" should determine image selection; our pool of possible images ultimately determines which images are used in a given article, and editorial consensus determines that. There is a majority view and a minority view on this matter in this specific case. The minority refuses to go away on the matter and has engaged in disruptive behavior in an effort to win the day. Seven-eighths of this problem can be resolved with three well placed topic bans, and the other one-eighth can be resolved by agreement among the remaining editors. That's the truth. Carrite (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV
2) WP:NOTCENSORED does not override WP:NPOV, including WP:DUE.
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- Proposed. This is stated in WP:NOTCENSORED itself ("Content that is judged to violate Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Misplaced Pages policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Misplaced Pages's main servers are hosted, will also be removed."), but it seems worth restating. --JN466 16:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't believe any editor has suggested that NOTCENSORED overrides NPOV, DUE or any other policy or guideline. --FormerIP (talk) 16:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- See diffs 5 and 6 in my evidence. The ideas expressed there appeared to suggest that following WP:NPOV / WP:DUE (i.e. following reliable sources) could breach WP:NOTCENSORED, thus assigning a higher priority to the latter than the former. --JN466 17:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, you are working from the viewpoint that your interpretations of NPOV and DUE, acknowledged on both sides to be, at the very least, novel, cannot be overridden by counter-argument. This is not the same thing. --FormerIP (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really understand where the notion comes from that it should be a novel idea for images to be subject to WP:NPOV / WP:DUE, or that it should be a novel idea for WP:NOTCENSORED to be secondary to WP:NPOV. WP:NPOV / WP:DUE has applied to images for the past five-and-a-half years, without interruption, and WP:NOTCENSORED has similarly for nearly seven years now stated expressly that it does not protect objectionable content that is in violation of WP:NPOV. Throughout this entire time, WP:NPOV has been non-negotiable, and has defined the neutral point of view as (1) representing views in proportion to their prevalence in the most reputable sources, and (2) as being impartial, i.e. not endorsing any one point of view in a debate as correct. Policy has always been clear on these points. --JN466 22:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- By definition, censorship is a violation of NPOV. So yes, NOTCENSORED does stand above NPOV as the latter is not sustainable without the former. Also, this statement implies that NPOV has a higher priority than NOTCENSORED. I respect your viewpoint on how to determine "due weight" (thus my own efforts to integrate into my proposals), but it is a fair assessment that your views on the matter have not generated consensus support. Resolute 18:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- The point, though, being that censorship is not a proper application of NPOV. An argument that goes "I have identified some sources on the topic of abortion/pornography/coprophilia/George Osborne and their use of images is quite different from ours..." is likely to not be an argument based in NPOV. In fact, it may well be the reverse, particularly if it fails to examine or care about the reasons for the differences identified. Claiming that your argument is an application of NPOV and therefore impervious to critique does not make it so.
- On the other hand, NOTCENSORED does not override NPOV, because no genuine application of policy can constitute censorship. --FormerIP (talk) 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Applying due weight in an article is not censorship. It may feel like that to someone who is entirely caught up in a particular subaspect of the article topic, and wants it to be more prominent than it is in reliable sources, but that does not make it so. We have an easy and standard way of dealing with this: if the subtopic is notable in its own right, we use WP:Summary style and create a subarticle. --JN466 22:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Once in a while, an editor comes along and says that all sources are censored, and therefore we must allow him to present in Misplaced Pages the truth that is missing in the sources. We may even, in rare cases, sympathise with such an editor, if they make a compelling case. But at the end of the day, we tell them to get reliable sources to include that which they want us to include in Misplaced Pages, and to come back when they have done so. There is no neutral point of view in Misplaced Pages that differs from the view of reliable sources. Even if we feel that all or most of the reliable sources are "non-neutral", or "censored", NPOV requires us to present points of view in due proportion to their prevalence in these same sources. That's how neutrality is defined in Misplaced Pages. --JN466 22:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, you are working from the viewpoint that your interpretations of NPOV and DUE, acknowledged on both sides to be, at the very least, novel, cannot be overridden by counter-argument. This is not the same thing. --FormerIP (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- See diffs 5 and 6 in my evidence. The ideas expressed there appeared to suggest that following WP:NPOV / WP:DUE (i.e. following reliable sources) could breach WP:NOTCENSORED, thus assigning a higher priority to the latter than the former. --JN466 17:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, NPOV is only operates where there exist conflicting statements (to be construed broadly - I am not suggesting that images are per se excluded) of fact and opinion about the subject of an article. What we have here are conflicting opinions of editors about how to make stylistic choices in the presentation of an article. NPOV has no direct role in deciding that. It is something we decide by reference to our policies (so far as they are applicable), our MoS and, in the final analysis, our collective judgement. You are failing to draw this important distinction. The New York Times may be a reliable source for information about Mohammed. But it is not a reliable model for the editorial approach to be taken in Misplaced Pages.
- Secondly, we routinely deny weight to sources if we believe them to be censored. Were it the case, for example, that we were able to determine that 80% of all sources concerning human rights in China were produced by Chinese state media, we would not take the view that our writing on the topic should lean 80% towards what those sources say about the topic. Of course, we would scoff at someone wanting to include unsourced information on the grounds that all sources are censored. But you know very well that this is not analogous to the present case. --FormerIP (talk) 01:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- It's a matter of degree. If I understand you correctly, you appear to argue that all sources that do not show images of Muhammad (including Encyclopaedia Britannica, University Press publications by leading scholars like this one by Carl W. Ernst, and many other highly reputable sources, are censored, leaving only the minority that have numerous Muhammad images as acceptable models to follow. This of course is a handy rationalisation, as it means that all the sources that disagree with you are ipso facto disqualified from the pool of references. You yourself, rather than the literature, then become the arbiter of due weight. But how is that different from an editor arguing that all sources that do not give pride of place to their favoured theory are censored, and that therefore said theory should rightly take pride of place in Misplaced Pages? I simply cannot take seriously the idea that Britannica's Muhammad article (or for that matter, every sexologist or sex-education website that chooses not to show an image like this in otherwise amply illustrated works discussing fisting) is "censored" the way the Chinese state media are censored – in the Muhammad case, not least because there are plenty of sources attesting to the rarity and generally unrepresentative character of figurative images of Muhammad in Islamic art. My whole point is that to the extent that we do present Islamic Muhammad imagery, we should represent it in correct proportions, giving most weight to mainstream rather than fringe art. To summarise, what your line of thinking appears to me to lead to is that we follow your POV, rather than a neutral point of view derived from and reflecting reputable sources. I appreciate that you believe sincerely and passionately in what you are saying, and that it reflects your idea of what Misplaced Pages should be, but I don't think it's philosophically neutral in either the general or the Misplaced Pages sense. Cheers. --JN466 02:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't believe any editor has suggested that NOTCENSORED overrides NPOV, DUE or any other policy or guideline. --FormerIP (talk) 16:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Again, should be obvious. Any specific application may not be obvious, but this principle should be obvious in itself. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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- With hundreds of thousands of words having already been expended on this issue to date, the editors in discussion about these two workshop proposals should consider whether we must again rehash the "How to interpret NOTCENSORED etc" debate. AGK 23:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- AGK: The only debates we have in this arbitration are the "How to interpret NOTCENSORED" debate and the "Why we should all hate Ludwigs2" debate (check the evidence page if you haven't yet caught onto that aspect of this discussion). The latter debate - while arguably more entertaining for everyone - is a whole lot less useful than the former. So unless you want us all to present our perspectives and then sit in appreciative silence… which come to think of it would be kind of nice, yah?
- Just sayin'… --Ludwigs2 01:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- With hundreds of thousands of words having already been expended on this issue to date, the editors in discussion about these two workshop proposals should consider whether we must again rehash the "How to interpret NOTCENSORED etc" debate. AGK 23:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
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Mentoring for Ludwigs2
1) As per ASCIIn2Bme's evidence Ludwigs2 takes it too far on many occasions, mentoring to give him a better idea of acceptable behaviour would in my view be useful.
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- This is in addition to any other remedies that are considered appropriate by the committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Mentoring is for relatively new but over-aggressive/eager editors that others feel can be a valued contributor if given a bit of guidance. Ludwigs has been around the block much to long for that; this length of time spent in the Misplaced Pages community has given him more than enough familiarity with norms and practices here. If Ludwigs runs afoul of those, that is his choice; he knows better. Tarc (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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