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Revision as of 09:51, 4 April 2006

my latest edit

One editor added the signature "INFO (By Andi VL)", other editors removed the last paragraphs of the article - I don't know what to say. I did those edits and I 'll might add some stuff later. talk to +MATIA 09:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

the text from 1911

SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.

Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.

See Georges T. Petrovitch, Scander-beg (Georges Castriota); Essai de bibliographie raisonnee; Ouvrages sur Scander-beg crits en langues francaise, anglaise, allemande, latine, italienne, &c. (Paris, 1881); Pisko, Skanderbeg, historische Studie (Vienna, 1895). talk to +MATIA 09:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The New Student's Reference Work

Scanderbeg. (Iskander Beg or Bey), an Albanian chieftain, was born in Albania, about 1403, of Servian parents. He was called George Castriota by the Christians. He was carried away by the Turks when seven, and brought up a Mohammedan. His bravery and skill made him a favorite with the sultan, who put him in command of a division of his army. In 1443 he deserted the Turkish army with 300 Albanians, and renounced Mohammedanism. In less than a month the whole of Albania was in arms, Scanderbeg was chosen chief, and the Turkish garrisons driven out of the country He was defeated by the Turks but once in all the struggles that followed, destroying 40,000 Turks, with 15,000 Albanians, and defying the Sultan himself with his army of 150,000, until he retired disgusted from the conflict. Pope Pius II tried in vain to league the Christian princes together to help Scanderbeg in his conflicts with the Turks, but succeeded in inducing him to break a truce of peace, made in 1461, and renew the war alone. He again defeated every force that attacked him, even driving back Mohammed II, the conqueror of Constantinople, who conducted two campaigns against him in person. Scanderbeg died at Alessio, of malarial fever, Jan. 17 5468. Consult Ludlow's Captain of the Janizaries.

From wikisource talk to +MATIA 08:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

To Albanau

I don't care whether his mother or grandmother was Serbian, Greek or whatever else, but a) you are removing vital parts of the article apart from the word Serbian that you dislike and b) it is from EB 1911, you can see it scanned at wikisource, if you don't believe that the above text is correct. Perhaps you should consider that Scanderbeg sided any Christians he could and that includes Serbians too. talk to +MATIA 14:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

We been through this a thousand times. I think using out of date sources to support your arguements is unwise. Your using sources that is about 100 years old. You must admit the serious lack of scientific support of the theory that Scanderbeg's mother Vojsava was of Serbian origin. Everything points to the fact that this is Serbian nationalist propaganda and fiction. This is an encyclopedia article, accept it! Some few Greeks here have even claimed that Scanderbeg's father and uncle was Greek. It seams likely that this have to do with religion and nationalism. Just because he was Christian and the majority of Albanians are today Muslims, doesn't mean Greeks or Serbs have the right to claim him as their own. Cause I know many Greek and Serb seam him as a Christian hero of the Balkans and dislike muslim Albanians for having him as their national hero. With that comes the myth of him being either Greek or Serb. Serbs even go so far as saying that he and his army was Serbs, and complain to Albanians they stole part of Serbian history. Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something els. So enough with all the rubbish. If you didn't cear about the Serbian theory that his mother was Serbian, you would have been able to accept the erasement of the unaccurate part of the article. Thank you so much for understanding. --Albanau 11:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of my sources are at least 100 years old because I prefer public domain sources. If you know of an online english translation of Barleti's work please let me know, I'm very interested in reading it (and I can only speak english and greek). Scanderbeg, when he took Croia, forced the muslims to be baptized, but today this is not the case and of course I agree this is an encyclopedia article.

I believe you are wrong when you say "Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something else" and I hope you aren't doing that intentionally. I've added, with source the EB1911 again, his title Dragon of Albania and in the new intro I only left his characterization as national Albanian hero (moving Albanian lord, Serbian mother etc lower in the biography section). It doesn't make Scanderbeg less Albanian or less heroic, f his mother was partly Serbian or whatever else. talk to +MATIA 12:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You are completely spellbound by the myth that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb. The supposed Serbian origin of the Albanian national hero George Castriota Scanderbeg have not been scientifically confirmed. Of course, admitting this fact is easy; overcoming it is far more difficult.

According to a fact recorded in an anonymous Venetian chronicl Skanderbeg's mother was a Bulgarian women named Voisava, from the provinces of Upper and Lower Polog ranged over the territory of the Tetovo plain. Although I don't know how acceptable this is scientifically.

Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus.

If you agree that this is an encyclopedia, then you must understand the principles of an encyclopedia, that is not being subjective and adding contradictory information to your comfortable. The problem is obvious, as you probable understand, the informartion is the problem, it is contradictory information which has nothing to do with encyclopedia-articles. Albanau 16:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous doesn't help much but we could ref it as a manuscript if we know where (which museum etc) this manuscript is. I thought the "problem" was the "claim" that she wasn't Albanian, now I don't get what difference does it make if she was Albanian, Serbian or Bulgarian. talk to +MATIA 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Your latin quote is mentioned at some forums and at a bulgarian site and that book is (likely) a 112 page monograph, Георги Кастриоти-Скендербег и неговата освободителна борба. В: Г. Кастриоти Скендербег 1468-1968. София, 1970. I'd be interested in the (estimated) date of the Venetian chronicle. talk to +MATIA 16:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Is Vojsava the Albanian spelling of her name? talk to +MATIA 17:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just found this: Principe di Epiro, figlio del S. Ivan Castrioth, che signoreggiava quella parte di Albania, la qual si chiama Emathia et Tumenstia, et la matre di Scanderbeg chiamata Voisava, fu figliuola del S. di Pollogo, che è una parte della Macedonia et Bulgaria (Paolo Giovio, Commentario delle cose de Turchi, Venezia 1541). This is in 16th century Italian; it is very similar to the latin chronicle just cited. This view is exposed also by the historian Marinus Barletius, who says "Prince John I of Kastriota married Voisava of the family Tribalda, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje." The same Barletius also stated that the area was inhabited by slavs, but without telling if Bulgarians or Serbs. --Aldux 16:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly Marinus Barletius mention that one part of the population was Bulgarian and the other part Albanian. --Albanau 09:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Italy

I've removed the phrase "Skanderbeg's 25-year resistance against the Ottoman Empire succeeded in helping protect the Italian peninsula from invasion by the Ottoman Turks ."

In 1480, the Sultan invaded Italy and Rhodes, and he was repulsed. talk to +MATIA 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm not willing to accept. --Albanau 11:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that I removed it here cause I thought it might be controversial. If you have any reliable source that makes that claim tell me and I'll gladly put it back in. Please review my edits at Scanderbeg. I hope that, apart from some different opinions you and I might have, you'll admit I'm trying to expand this article as good as possible. talk to +MATIA 12:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Migh be controversial? What about removing the part that saids that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb woman? So far as I know she probable was a Bulgarian woman. What I know Albania was seen as springboard too the Italian peninsula. As said before, I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm unwilling to accept--Albanau 16:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It sounds logical that Scanderbeg delayed the Ottomans etc. Could you find a good book that says so? talk to +MATIA 16:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

See also Skanderbeg#Effects_on_the_Ottoman_expansion. talk to +MATIA 17:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

military university?

Is there a military university name after Scanderbeg in Albania? talk to +MATIA 08:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is the dispute still going on?

Weren't international sources provided? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is that I suspect that all we know regards the mother of Skanderbeg comes from only one source, Marin Barleti's History; this is the only primary source, while the others are all derivated, in my opinion. And Barleti never states if Voisava was Serbian or Bulgarian, only that her family ruled over a land peopled by Slavs, in Western Macedonia. As for the statement you added, I removed it since her mother's name and origin is stated before. --Aldux 21:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose the removal of disputed information when the veracity of such disputed information cannot be verified. The theory of the Serbian origin of Scanderbeg is contradictory, and based on the national romantic interest of the Serbian people. Due to this fact it has not been scientifically confirmed. The woman in question is supposedly a princess of Bulgarian origin. Yet it certainly isn't safe to say much about the origin of Scanderbeg's mother. This theories should be presented as as theories in the article, and not as facts.

User shouldn't expend great energy on searching information from one-hundred-year-old encyklopedias. Old information overwrites new information, and is is generally not useful information. It is unwise to rely on old information all the time because certain information has been controversially disputed ever since. The best way to get reliable information is from updated and objective sources. --Albanau 09:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)