Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:30, 4 April 2006

Template:TrollWarning

Please keep in mind the rules about personal attacks have recently changed. In particular, check out Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks. Samboy 23:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Old discussion moved to Talk:Micronation/Archive1 Samboy 23:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

List of suggested micronations removed from the article

• In 14th August 2005, while the Withdrawal of Israel from Gaza Strip, Arie Yitzhaki, an Israeli military historian, declared independence in his tiny settlement, Shirat Hayam (Sea's Poetry). Yitzhaky sent letters to the United Nation and the red cross and asked for ammunition from Ariel Sharon, the prime minister of Israel. He called himself The Temporary Chairman "until the election of the 2500 citizens" in his country, The Independent Jewish Authority in Gaza Beach. Four days after, he defended his country alone with a M-16 against IDF soldiers, but was evacuated after some hours.
• Moresnet, a tiny European mini-state of about 3.5 km² that existed from 1816 to 1919. Its two large neighbours couldn't agree on who should own it, deciding therefore to make it a neutral territory where both would share control equally. It was located some 7 km southwest of Aachen, directly south of where the borders of Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands intersect on the Vaalserberg.
• Republic of Talossa
• United Kingdom of Atlantis
• Middle Korea What does anyone have aganist Middle Korea? I would like anyone that dosn't know what a micronation is to please get out of here! Don't be a hater! And leave my edits alone!

You need to create a real account, and create a new section in the Talk page here (use the + tab at the top) to explain why Middle Korea is notable. Sticking your note up here is not going to get you correct attention. Georgewilliamherbert 08:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth: "Shirat Hayam" is Hebrew for "Song at the Sea", not "Sea's Poetry". It is the Jewish name for the hymn in Exodus chapter 15, which Moses and the Israelites sing after crossing the sea out of Egypt. --Hoziron 06:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Gene Poole

Hey folks! ! !, I'm a mere anonymous member of the public and not a Misplaced Pages regular, but it seems wrong that "Gene Poole" removes something I carefully added the same day, without consulting anyone. A long time ago in the middle of a big fight over "micronation" he deleted a reference to micropatrology, and I just put a new and accurate cross-reference in. Here's the recent history yesterday:

(cur) (last)  23:18, 21 August 2005 Gene Poole (remove reference to micropatrology - it is not a formal academic discipline)
(cur) (last)  23:16, 21 August 2005 Gene Poole (add more NPOV reference to micropatrology)
(cur) (last) 20:22, 21 August 2005 24.27.19.186 (restore micropatrology ref somehow lost in earlier "micronation" dispute) - this last was by me -

Gene Poole's statement that "it is not a formal academic discipline" seems totally irrelevant. It was used as a word for the small-country and territory study (including nonacademic hobby study like "philately") in the 1970s and 1980s, including in Washington Post, NY Times, etc. Then some masters and PhD theses were written using the term in the 1990's and on (so it's arguably becoming a bit "academic"). Why should its not being a formal academic discipline exclude it, since it's a useful specialized term that's been used for 30 years? (Unlike "micronation" apparently, it excludes cyberfantasies and always excluded the fictional stuff.) I can't spend the amount of time here to do a big debate, but it seems wrong to let this person dominate a subject and exclude accurate information due to pronounced zeal against whatever he is fighting against. Micropatrology is a neutral word as far as I know. I hope some more formidable Wikipedian than I can restore my cross references to micropatrology from Micronation in the proper way.

fictional nations

Um, one question I don't see has been answered is why, if the definition of 'micronation' applies only to fictional nations, are nations which once had real existence also included here? Shouldn't such be considered microstates, instead? - Mike Lorrey 19:05 1/27/05 EST

As far as I can see, the definition doesn't simply apply to fictional nations. In fact, entirely fictional nations seem to be a distinct minority here. The definition seems more concerned with a nation existing but remaining unrecognized. --Centauri 00:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I know that this message is months old, but I would like to note that the vast majority of micronations are fictional nations with no real life basis, and not simply a matter of unrecongition. -Bill3000 14:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

PoV template

Looking at the Talk archive and the page History, it looks as though the person insisting on the inclusion of the template has disappeared. If anyone who is actually involved in editing the page thinks that it should be replaced, then fine — but there didn't seeem to be much point leaving it there to disfigure the page.

By the way, if the anon. user who accused me of 'vandalism' for changing 'territory' for 'land' would like to explain instead of indulging in edit-summary insults (and 'retaliating' by editing my user page), we might get somewhere). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:06, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Apparently the anon user isn't interested in discussion or politeness, only in insisting on an unexplained edit. The difference concerns whether land that's part of a sovereign country, and that was in use by another country's military, is to be described as 'land' or as 'territory'. I take the latter (and the dctionary backs me up here) to involve a political dimension that the former lacks, hence my preference for 'land'. If there's an argument against that, I'd be happy to hear and consider it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:56, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is very likely that the "anonymous vandal" is the twice-banned abusive crank editor Wik, aka Gzornenplatz, who was the one responsible for slapping the spurious dispute notice on this page in the first place. His attempts at editing can now simply be reverted as a matter of course. --Gene_poole 21:57, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation; I'll be aware in future. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:54, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No,I AM NOT A VANDAL!As i explained by the empiere of Moravia article,simply seek out the folowing page: http://www.kingnicholas.com/ read the latest news posted on 13th may and then click on the "as follows" icon where you will find that a Micronation that YOU recognised as such (The Copeman Empiere) has recognised "The Empiere of Moravia" in their response,from witch i quote: "I certainly see no problem in recognising your empire's existence." To the "uninterested in discussion" bit...i had other wories with the actual article and its votes for deletion(i mean [[Empiere of Moravia[[ and Self-proclaimed Emperors of Moravia and thei "government" where on boath i stated the former information of "recognition" Your Tomislav I. or a number i simply cant remember.

This is (at least it tries) to be serious encyclopedia. You may try Uncyclopedia, perhaps you will feel better there. And please use four tildas ~~~~ to sign your comments. Pavel Vozenilek 16:18, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Animal Farm

Centauri, I'm curious to know why you think that Animal Farm is not a Micronation. In the category of Exercises in fantasy or creative fiction, it is arguably the best known Micronation. Certainly more so than any of the other examples we've noted. Bollar 13:58, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

"Animal Farm" is no more a micronation than "Lord of the Rings", "Star Wars", "Star Trek", "Harry Potter", "Alice in Wonderland", "Narnia" or any other imaginary realm in literature or creative fiction is a micronation. The definition and examples given suggest that the micronations listed are unique entities in their own right - created as specific self-sustaining projects - and not simply the imaginary settings for stories. There is a separate article on imaginary countries, and if anwhere, Animal Farm belongs there. The 2 concepts are distinct and are only indirectly related. --Centauri 03:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

dablink

This article is about small "nations" that are not recognized by any world government. For information on countries that are legitimately recognized, but are geographically tiny ...

The text I cut looks like a disambiguation notice. But it actually creates or exploits ambiguity. It's a sneaky way of legitimizisg micronations by confusing them with microstates - while pretending not to. This is disruptive to Misplaced Pages.

This is an encyclopedia, not a playground. Let's make it quite clear what the micronation movement is about, without endorsing (or ridiculing) it. Uncle Ed July 8, 2005 22:02 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

I am removing the link to Empire of Atlantium on this page because the users who add the link are members of this Empire, or know members well enough to allow them to use their Misplaced Pages account. This is a conflict of interest (especially since the members of Atlantium also delete links to other micronations), so I am removing the link until another known Misplaced Pages editor feels it is appropriate to mention them. Samboy 17:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I am restoring the links that have been removed by Samboy because they are important to the topic, particularly as they describe a somewhat unique event that is documented in external sources (and which is featured in a BBC television series, no less), which have been properly cited as such. I also note that Samboy appears to have a personal conflict of interest on the subject of micronations due to past conflicts with other editors, which seems to be biasing him against selected content. --Centauri 23:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Samboy that this "Atlantium" self-promotion is inappropriate. The whole detailed description of a single, not particularly notable exhibition seems to serve no other purpose than to get a mention of "Atlantium" in the article. NoPuzzleStranger 14:38, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see the notability of this event and suggest the entire paragraph be deleted. Bollar 00:18, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

The first major exhibition about micronations, held on both sides of the Atlantic and filmed by the BBC as part of a nationally-broadcast TV series is certainly notable enough to belong in Misplaced Pages's article on micronations.--Centauri 00:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The fact that there was a TV documentary on micronations, isn't, in inself, notable. Nor does it make the participants notable. Even the fact that a few micronations gathered doesn't seem notable. Perhaps something was discussed or revealed that was notable? Hard to say since the program hasn't aired yet.

The fact that it has never happened before is notable. In fact, there is no possible way for it to be not notable. --Centauri 01:10, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how the "first TV documentary" or "first exhibition" about anything is automatically notable. All the time documentaries or exhibitions are made about the most trivial, unencyclopedic things. And I wouldn't even insist on removing all mention of the exhibition; however, the list of the specific micronations involved is surely not necessary and your insistence on including it just shows your intent to promote your own "empire". NoPuzzleStranger 01:24, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

This documentary is notable in that the series has sparked a massive level of interest in micronations. Look at the site of the presenter's micronation, citizensrequired.com, now totalling over 20,000 citizens. Graius

The issue here in terms of notability is that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. In particular, Misplaced Pages is not a place for self-promotion. This is why I do not edit the article on my open-source project and why people involved with the Empire of Atlantium, IMHO, shouldn't be trying to link to the article from other pages. Samboy 03:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

And what has any of that got to do with me, or anyone else here, for that matter? --Centauri 04:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to bring it up, but this evidence indicates that you share an account with the founder of the Empire of Atlantium Samboy 04:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest you look up Occam's Razor? That George Cruickshank has been assisting me with my research for a period of some months now is a matter of public record. That on one occasion he has used the same laptop as me, unwittingly logged in as me, to access Misplaced Pages is, as you've shown, also a matter of public record. However, to suggest on that basis that I am a member or sympathiser of his micronation is fanciful speculation to say the least. I've also interviewed Prince Leonard of Hutt River Province, Prince Peter of the Principality of United Oceania, Tom Barnes from the Independent State of Rainbow Creek and numerous other Australian micronationalists; by your reasoning this should preclude me from contributing to these topics as well - which is plainly a ridiculous proposition - unless of course your actual motivation is to prevent the inclusion in Misplaced Pages of information on subjects that you are on record as expressing extreme personal distaste for. --Centauri 05:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

If you don't see how a unique event about a subject that is of obvious broad public interest (if judging by the level of editing activity on this and similar pages over the past few years is anything to go by - and it is), then I can't really help you. I notice that you seem to have a bit of a history with problems of that nature. --Centauri 01:34, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Broad public interest? You have got to be kidding. No one cares about "micronations". The level of editing activity here is due to revert wars involving a few (well, mostly yourself) POV editors who try to promote their own "micronation" either directly or indirectly by promoting the concept itself, and a few NPOV editors who try to stem that tide. NoPuzzleStranger 01:40, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I don't suppose you have any actual evidence to support that eccentric rant, do you? --Centauri 01:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

"Broad public interest". NoPuzzleStranger 01:51, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Is 34,700 broad enough for you? --Centauri 01:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Google proper does not reflect "public interest", or at least 34,700 is not enough by far. Any individual micronation can produce thousands of hits about itself, and it adds up. Google News, however, shows if the public really cares about something, since you can't easily force your own propaganda into there. NoPuzzleStranger 02:00, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Of course. It's all part of the grand micronation conspiracy to take over the world - or failing that, Misplaced Pages. And it's not just the micronations either! The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, who no one cares about, the Mauryan Empire, who no one cares about, and those shifty-eyed Carchemish-promoters who no one cares about are all using Misplaced Pages to push their secret agendas too. It's a scandal, I tell you! --Centauri 02:06, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Centauri, thank you for being open about your connection to the micronations movement. I am also open about my leadership in the Unification Church.

You might not be aware of how an apparent conflict of interest can affect one's standing in various situations. I studied this as part of an ethics course, when I was in the US Army.

If I recall the textbook correctly (after 20 years!), it said:

"An officer must not make any decision or carry out any act, as part of his official duties, which accrues to his personal benefit."

This means that an officer must put his duty ahead of any personal interests. If the two conflict, that is the textbook definition of a conflict of interest. Judges don't hear cases involving their own family or property, for the same reason.

But the textbook goes on to say that even the appearance of a conflict of interest can be detrimental to morale, order, etc. It's not enought to "be good". You must inspire others with confidence in your goodness, so you must "look good". Both are needed.

This is not to demean, belittle, or accuse you in any way. I am just proposing a standard for us all to follow at Misplaced Pages. I guess I should turn this into a Misplaced Pages:policy page.

I personally hold a lot of controversial opinions, and quite a large number of Wikipedians consider me to be the single most controversial person here on that account. But I have a reputation for being able to write neutrally, even on subjects I feel strongly about - partly because I am quick to reveal my Misplaced Pages:POV and moreover to ask others to help my overcome any unconscious bias I may harbor. And when others lose faith in my ability to write neutrally on any subject, I withdraw from it (for a while, anyway), e.g., on global warming.

I hope this helps. Cheers. Uncle Ed 12:11, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's appropriate to conduct a discussion of of this nature on this page, however since you've initiated one I will take the opportunity to respond:

1. I am not part of, nor do I have a "connection to" any "micronation movement" because there is no such thing. I have over the last year or so developed an interest in what is generally accepted to be a notable, albeit eccentric, real historic phenomenon, and to research that phenomenon I have actively sought out those involved in it, as would any reputable researcher.

2. My opinions on the subject of micronations are not at all controversial. They are the same opinions held by most external observers and commentators who have reported or written about them since the 19th century. My opinions are based on facts and reputable sources, and they favour no-one, as all of my contributions to Misplaced Pages on the subject show.

3. I do not intend to cease contributing to Misplaced Pages on this subject merely because one or two other editors with troubled histories and an inability to conduct themselves in a civil manner can't deal with others, better-informed than themselves, playing in what they believe to be their sandpit. In fact, events in recent days have motivated me to look beyond the 3 micronation articles I have contributed to date, and I now intend to expand my contributions in this area.

I hope this clarifies things. --Centauri 13:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't. So I'll ask you point blank: are you using Misplaced Pages to promote the concept of micronations? Uncle Ed 13:48, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it does, and I'd appreciate you doing me the courtesy of reading the comments I've taken the time to write - particularly point 2 above. --Centauri 14:06, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Since you've refused to answer my question, I no longer feel even a pro forma obligation to assume good faith. I hope this situation changes, but until it does I have to take your refusal into account in all my future decisions. Uncle Ed 21:10, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't find any reference to a Misplaced Pages policy that requires me or any other editor to be accountable to, or "answer" questions that make no sense in the context of the discussion, framed for unknown purposes, by Uncle Ed. If you're having trouble understanding me, message me on my talk page. --Centauri 01:11, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

That was one of the clearest evasive answers I've heard in many a year. For sheer rhetorical skill, I gotta give you some points. :-) So you're off the hook for now. But do please try to cooperate with the project, okay? Uncle Ed 20:45, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be obtuse. I just find the hysterical reaction to micronations some editors here are pushing is downright lame. Asking whether my contributions to articles concerning micronations "promote" them, is like asking whether my contributions to articles about Japanese horror films and anime "promote" them. It's a ridiculous idea to say that writing about something in a way that's factual and neutral "promotes" it. --Centauri 01:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Endorsement and all that it entails

cut from the article:

A "summit of micronations" hosted as part of the exhibition was attended by representatives of Sealand, Elgaland-Vargaland, New Utopia, Atlantium, Frestonia and Fusa

The use of the word representatives implies recognition of the micronations as the sovereign entitities their conceivers claim them to be. Misplaced Pages should remain neutral on the question of whether these entities are entitled to that recognition. Uncle Ed 20:42, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Where did you come up with the idea that the word "representative" is somehow intrinsically tied to "sovereignty" ? Maybe you're confusing it with "envoy" or "ambassador" ? A "representative" does just that - he or she represents something; whether that is the local scout troop, the country women's association, a chuch choir or a micronation. Your idea that all micronations are seeking "sovereignty" is also wrong. Have you read the article? --Centauri 01:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No, a representative is someone who represents some group, and says nothing about sovereignty. Taiwan can and does have representatives, and no one recognizes Taiwan as sovereign. Ditto for Palestine. Ditto for Iraqi insurgents, representatives of which have met with U.S. officials.

The word "summit" already implies that someone recognizes these groups as groups. You have to concede that, if no one else, these micronations recognize each other as micronations. Scope of recognition is another matter. But that arbitrary definition of scope doesn't affect the applicability of the word "representative". And they were certainly called representatives at the summit.

Besides, what would you call them? Can you come up with an as-you-put-it "neutral" word? -- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 20:51, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Open response to Samboy

Quite frankly, the handling of and fighting over the micronation article is one of the things that drains my patience for WP of late. It seems to me like the article is constantly whittled down to aggravatingly pendantic vagarity because a crop of people believe that in order for a government to receive their respect, it has to suck up to a larger or more powerful government sufficiently such that the larger government grants their holy magical nod of "recognition". (Which isn't independence, but hegemony.)

"Centauri is trying to add Atlantium" clearly isn't the whole story, as the refs you gave show. You state that C. is trying to add Atlantium to the article. Yes, that's true -- but partially true, as C. is also trying to add Sealand, New Utopia, Fusa, etc., for a total of 6 micronations. But instead, the opponents to this edit have zoomed-in on 1/6th of that list, insisting solely that it is an attempt to include only Atlantium, as part of a paragraph on an event that is both relevant and notable within the subject matter of the article topic. The virulence spent on this focus is quite clearly based on the unproven supposition that C. = GenePoole, a fiercely clung-to belief. What that crusade fails to realize that even if C. does = GenePoole, the addition of 6 micronation's names, listed as attendees of an event, doesn't constitute bias. Does it make sense to exclude one of the nations simply because the poster is affiliated with it? No, that would be counterproductive. Were the content added by someone not affiliated (check that -- not BELIEVED to be affiliated) with one of the listed groups, would there be nearly as fierce an objection to such content? I doubt it.

The position you and others take against inclusion of this kind of content -- and arguments against words like "representatives" which I find rather inexplicable -- illustrates an anti-micronation bias that permeates the ongoing battle over this article and related articles on the topic. If you're against the legitimacy of the subtantial inclusion of the topic itself, which seems to be the case, that's a matter for VFD. If the topic matter is fitting for inclusion, then the matter should be included, and included as fully to encyclopedic and contemporary completeness.

It's not like the world is going to crumble because individuals make noise over their miniature self-government projects and experiments. That doesn't mean they don't exist. They do exist, they have reached a certain level of notoriety thanks to the Internet (and a natural human desire for self-direction in a world where there is no available claimable territory to develop a geographic nation in -- besides, many major modern nations were built on the lands of existing cultures, so how can you compare legitimacy?), and an article covering the topic should not refuse to mention the manifestations and mechanics of that topic.

I was a little suprised (and frankly a little annoyed) to be asked for input on this, as I'm quite far removed from the issue nowadays to be worth bringing into the fold. But I'm afraid I don't support you this time, either.

- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:59, July 15, 2005 (UTC) (edited on 20:11, July 15, 2005 (UTC))

Thank you Keith D. Tyler. It is good to see someone finally articulating a rational viewpoint on this subject. --Centauri 06:08, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. This is why I messaged you; because you were opposed to the arbitration against George Cruickshank. Whenever I get in a nasty argument like this, I want to get other points of view so that I can see things from a more neutral perspective. I know this argument is frustrating for you; you can imagine how frustrated I am. Samboy 20:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Poll: Should be include "attended by representatives..."

This is a poll about whether the bold part of the section below should be included in this article:

In August 2003 a summit of micronations took place in Helsinki at Finlandia Hall, the site of the Conference for Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE). The summit was attended by delegations of the Principality of Sealand, the Kingdoms of Elgaland & Vargaland, NSK-State in Time, Ladonia, Transnational Republic, the State of Sabotage and by scholars from various academic institutions.

From 7 November through 17 December 2004, the Reg Vardy Gallery at the University of Sunderland (UK) hosted an exhibition on the subject of group identity and symbolism as they relate to micronations. The exhibition focused on numismatic, philatelic and vexillological artifacts, as well as other symbols and instruments created and used by a number of micronations from the 1950s through to the present day.

A "summit of micronations" hosted as part of the exhibition was attended by representatives of Sealand, Elgaland-Vargaland, New Utopia, Atlantium, Frestonia and Fusa and will feature in a 5-part BBC television documentary about micronations produced by Danny Wallace and scheduled to screen in the United Kingdom commencing in July 2005.

If you feel the bold part of this sentence should be included, vote yes; if not, vote no. In order to minimize possible fraudulant votes, votes from IPs and from accounts created after July 1, 2005 will not be counted. Please do not include discussion in the vote, include that in the section marked discussion.

YES The bolded part should be included in the article

1. --Centauri 09:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Keith D. Tyler ¶ 20:43, July 16, 2005 (UTC) -- in some form
3. Carter 00:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
4. L33tminion (talk) 20:36, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
5. Daniel C. Boyer
6. Yuckfoo 04:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
7. Graius 11:59, 17 August 2005 (GMT+1)
8. --Wilson(cc) 11:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

NO The bolded part should not be included in the article

1. Samboy 07:52, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
2. NoPuzzleStranger 09:10, July 16, 2005 (UTC) Note: Invalid vote by hard-banned editor. See .--Centauri 10:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
3. Bollar 11:59, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
4. Calton | Talk 13:21, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
5. Pavel Vozenilek 21:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

DISCUSSION

I wonder if anyone can provide an example in WP where a summit is mentioned with no mention of or reference to its participants. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:00, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

When talking about a summit, it seems perfectly legitimate to mention who was there. --L33tminion (talk) 20:36, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

NO POLLS! Snowspinner 03:02, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Snowspinner. Just put the damn thing in, it's silly not to--the whole point of having a summit (even a ruritanian one like this) is so that representatives can get together and discuss things. --Tony Sidaway 01:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not even sure what the point is here. It's your article - do what you wish with it. Frankly, I feel most micronation articles do not belong in Misplaced Pages. Denni☯ 23:26, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Rome

Does anyone else consider the Vatican a micronation? It fits many of the categories, but all of the micronations here are described as makeshift nations, and most of them are not even recognized. Does the Vatican not fit, or does it?

The Vatican City State is recognised widely as a sovereign state. It is not a micronation. --Centauri 11:40, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I added Vatican City as an example microstate at the top so people would not have this confusion. Samboy 22:13, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Distinguish between the Vatican State and the Holy See: two distinct entities.

The Order of Malta and Mount Athos could be included under the microstates list rather than micronations. Perhaps a category of "religious microstates" could be created (would there be any other members than these three - not being familiar with non-European equivalents)?

The State of Vatican City is not considered to be a Micronation because it is recognised by the UN. It is however used by many micronationalists to demonstrate that sovereignty and statehood does not rely on the amount of territory possessed --Graius 18:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Dominion of Melchizedek

I have just moved all of the content for this nation off of this page. The micronation article is already too long; we don't need more than one sentence for Dominion of Melchizedek here. Samboy 21:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Qero, I agree with you that Melchizedek shouldn't be identified as a micronation, perhaps you could help me with that debate over at the Dominion of Melchizedek article. I tried to identify it alternatively as "an ecclesiastical sovereignty" but there was resistence, so I toned it down to "aspiring to ecclesiastical statehood", but even got resistence for that.

You can read the Misplaced Pages rules I referenced here:

Misplaced Pages:Cite sources Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources

Misplaced Pages:No original research Misplaced Pages:Verifiability

I don't see how those rules say that anything mentioned in the Washington Post should be treated as fact. Their article says nothing about having checked those claims with CAR authorities. It is likely they just saw the letter which seems to show recognition, but given Melchizedek's whole fraudulent background it may as well be a forgery. I have seen no independent confirmation of it. Qero 19:32, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

You must not have read the same pages I read about using newspaper articles. The fact that they wrote that Melchizedek gained "diplomatic recognition" from CAR is an independent source confirming the fact. There has never been any newspaper or other source to discredit this fact, that I can find, and in fact, other newspapers have also confirmed it. The Washington Post tracked down a professor in remote Ruthenia to confirm if Ruthenia had a treaty. It is only a few blocks from the CAR Embassy to the Washington Post, so it is hard to belive that they would go to that much trouble for one confirmation and a must easier one down the street, ignore. Unles the Washington Post statement can be disproved, to me it stands as fact.Johnski 19:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

ok, it appears that Melchidzek has been recognised by one country. But recognition of statehood does not in itself elevate an entity into genuine nationhood. If that were all that was needed, the word bantustan would not have been made, and Berwick-upon-Tweed would still be at war with Holland from centuries ago. It would be quite nice to see a proper formal definiton of micro-state. Provisonally, I'd go along with:

"A state is an entity that is formally recognised as such by the majority (ie 50+ %) of such entities that are themselves recognised as states."

And yes, I realise that this definition is open to accusations of being circular. I am open to suggestions that are equally impartial. Rhialto 11:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

How about we break up this article?

A lot of the argument seems to be over disagreements about the validity of various categories of micronation (and specific examples thereof).

Why don't we just split it up, and put links to the various categories along with a generic intro to the topic here? I don't see much disagreement (I think) on what micronations fall in which category.... Georgewilliamherbert 07:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Micronations named for real places

Under the heading Exercises in fantasy or creative fiction are listed "Upper Yafa and Oeccusi-Ambeno, two of an extraordinarily diverse and entertaining array of micronations invented by prolific New Zealand-based artistamp producer Bruce Henderson since the early 1970s."

However Oecussi-Ambeno is a very real exclave of East Timor with its own Wiki article and Upper Yafa was a real sultanate in the Federation of South Arabia that became part of South Yemen (Upper Yafa at worldstatesmen.org). I'm not familiar with the Bruce Henderson productions but the places themselves can hardly be said to be fictions or inventions.

LuiKhuntek 19:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Page division

One division would be to separate out those entities which did at one point have general recognition (ie could be seen as microstates]] and those which never had such recognition.

Where would Moresnet fit in the micronation discussion as it now is?

The "guidebook" to Molvania that was published 2004 should be included on this page (I think that another volume of a similar kind is due to be published shortly.)

Jackiespeel 18:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I think what you're proposing is unneccessarily confusing. I'm not aware of any recognised states that have become micronations. Moresnet was never a micronation - it was a legitimate historical entity, created by treaty between recognised nations, and jointly subject to their authority. I'm not really sure that Molvania or Phaic Tan belong here either, as they are literary fantasies, like Middle Earth or the Star Wars universe; they are the stage on which wider stories are played out, not self-contained projects. --Gene_poole 02:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Unexplained deletion

Gene Pool: Any reason why did you remove the entry for Azores? I did not add it myself (simply corrected the geographic location) but it does sound pretty much to me as a Micronation. Maybe you should learn Portuguese before getting rid of things you do not comprehend:

From the website: O Reino Unido dos Açores é uma simulação micronacional

In English: The United Kingdom of Azores is a micronation

Regards, --Asterion 20:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand it perfectly. It's just not significant enough to list within the article. This article is not a advertisement for every micronation in existence, but a resource that lists ony the most significant, well-known examples of each type. Sorry, but unless you can point to some dedicated media coverage that proves otherwise, Azores doesn't qualify. Oh, and don't use false edit summaries like "revert unexplained deletion" - when the reason was clearly explained - it's considered very bad form and doesn't do anything for your personal credibility. --Gene_poole 23:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Looking at this, I don't think you're being very nice. You have accused another editor of making "false edit summaries". You describing his editing as being "very bad form". You imply that making what I consider to be perfectly good edit summary (it was unexplained in the sense that it was only briefly explained in an edit summary) hurts his "personal credibility". Considering he's only been here a little over a month, with 302 edits, I think Don't bite the newbies applies. About the micronation issue, I personally don't think his micronation belongs here; I personally don't think your Micronation belongs here; I think the micronation article should be changed to only include Sealand and maybe a coupld of other really notable micronations; but, then again, I'm an exclusionist and you're an inclusionist. Asterion: I see that you have made a lot of valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages and am glad that you're an editor. As someone who has been here for a while, I need to warn you that getting involved in any article having to do with Micronations will greatly increase your Wikistress level. Samboy 05:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, Gene_poole, it was an unexplained deletion as you did not talk about it before hand in the talk page as for Misplaced Pages "unofficial" rules. It was not my intention to offend anyone. My point is that this sort of significant removal of data should be discussed and a consensus reached. (Many thanks for your kind words Samboy) --Asterion 07:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out here that Gene_poole is actually a member of a micronation - Atlantium - and has been using this page to promote their agenda, deleting the micronations less serious than them under the argument that they are "not notable". When protests are made, he gets his buddies in to claim that micronationalists from the simulationist sector have a conflict of interest, whilst failing to point out that he too is a micronationalist. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, and that is also applicable where deletions are made in order to keep a sector of micronationalism off the wiki in order to promote a secessionist agenda. --Graius 11:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Please refrain from posting false and misleading comments such as those above. The public record shows that I have created, expanded and maintained a significant majority of Misplaced Pages's approximately 40 articles about micronations (including this one) over a period of more than 3 years, and furthermore, that there is a long-established consensus - supported by dozens of regularly contributing editors to Misplaced Pages - that micronations whose existence cannot be independently verified in multiple third party sources are insufficiently noteworthy to be documented within the context of this article, nor elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. --Gene_poole 12:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think this represents the view of Misplaced Pages. I don't see dozens of editors who have a long established consensus; there is a general legitimate opposition to micronations but nothing as clear as "It's OK as long as it's supported by N 3rd party sources". Personally, I wish they would all go away (except for Sealand). I don't think your micronation belongs here. I don't think it is fair that we keep your micronation here while you delete other micronations. It makes members of other micronations legitimately upset. Samboy 22:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

a question here, as my article on the NFA is on the verge of being deleted...how many third party sources are needed to qualify as a notable micronation...I'll assume the 2 referenced in the nfa article are not enough, but then how many are? I ask because some of the deletion votes for the nfa seem to stem from a dislike of the whole concept of micronations as much as a dispute about the notability of the nfa...my point being that if 4 (or 6 or 8) articles is determined to be a reasonable measure of notability, then I will simply wait until more articles have been written about the nfa before re-submitting, but if it is likely to be attacked as non-notable regardless, than I would argue that a more "hard and fast" guideline/criteria be agreed upon in this talk section. Jamie 18:08, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no hard and fast rule about what to include and what to delete, not in this article, not in any article. Look at Misplaced Pages:Be bold. Samboy 22:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jamie. You might want to take a look this, which I documented 12 months ago, as it represents the Misplaced Pages consensus that has evolved over the last few years on the subject of micronations, through dozens of AfD votes and talk page discussions involving many, many editors. The ones that conform to the principles I outlined are almost always retained, while those that don't are almost always deleted. Feel free to contribute to the discussion - informed new opinions are always welcome. --Gene_poole 02:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

That pretty much sums up what Graius was talking about. Those are qualifications for secessionist micronations, which are completely different from the hobby of simulationist micronations in application and treatment. The focus of micronationalism, at least on the simulationist side, has completely drifted from the secessionist movement. They only share the same name of the hobby. At the very least, some bits on simulationist micronationalism should be noted here, not simply dismissing the whole section of the hobby as "not notable." While the simulationist section of micronationalism may not be well centralized, that does not mean that every single simulationist micronation is not notable. -Bill3000 16:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

You have completely misunderstood my comments. What I documented was not merely my opinion, but a summary of Misplaced Pages precedents concerning micronation articles that is the result of many discussions and votes involving many editors over many years - that happens to conform with my personal opinion. If you don't like it, by all means try to change it by influencing the opinions of others, but as of today it represents the nearest thing there is to a consensus on the subject. Aside from that your comments about battling "sides" and "movements" in micronationalism seems ill-informed; there is no "secessionist movement vs simulationist side" - merely people who create entities that are state-like without being recognised states. Many of them are notable. Many more are not. If they are notable - in other words if they can be independently verified in third party sources and are known to involve a reasonable number of people (these are basic criteria for the inclusion of any content in Misplaced Pages) - they generally end up being kept. There are many "simulationist" micronations documented in this very article on that basis, so claiming that they are dismissed out of hand is simply not true. On the other hand a micronation invented 3 months ago that consists of 1 badly designed geocities website run by a 12 year-old who can barely spell and who can't afford $10 for a domain name most certainly does not belong in Misplaced Pages. --Gene_poole 12:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the content says otherwise. Nova Roma, Reunion, et cetera are not really simulationist micronations and are more of the secessionist side. Meanwhile you have an section on "Exercises in fantasy or creative fiction", which simulationist micronations still are quite different from, as they still include quite a bit of political simulation. I'm amused that you would say that I am ill-informed about a concept in micronationalism, given the fact that I have been in micronationalism for over six years and am known as an (in)famous expert on internet micronationalism in the sector that I am in. (If you try to bring up that I'm biased or something to that extent, you're a micronationalist as well - simply being active in articles about micronationalism, or participating in the Misplaced Pages in other articles, does not make you any less unbiased on this issue.) I am just trying to state that what is actually true in micronationalism, and not merely shown by this article, which isn't very good at describing all of micronationalism, honestly. (By the way, the term micropatrology is used by simulationist micronations as well, so there is no need to deny it explicitly in that article.) A simulationist micronation is a micronation on the internet, whose intent is to be a simulation of a nation and purely is a hobby, as opposed to a seccessionist micronation, which has an intent of becoming a real nation in some way or another. Even so, nations such as Talossa and Nova Roma are different from simulationist micronations, as their main form of communation is not over the internet - one of the major qualifications for a simulationist micronation. I never said that a micronation that you described would be worthy for this page - of course not, although the statement is quite condescending and elitist. A webpage isn't even really the centerpiece of a micronation; where the actual discussion lies is the lifeblood of a micronatuion. However, there are a lot of successful micronations within what is considered to be the Anglophone Sector of micronationalism online that have lasted quite awhile, being a couple of years old. I'm not expecting this article to be a soruce on fully explaining micronationalism - it is impossible to simply put that in one page. That's what the links are for. What I am saying, however, is that there is a sector of micronationalism, (The Micras Sector) which is most definatly notable in whole at the very least, if you do not want to consider individual nations, and that this article needs to be drastically improved. It makes no real mention of the actual influence of internet micronationalism, its history ending in the late 1970s. Micronationalism has changed a lot on the internet since the early 1990s. By the way, quite a couple of your links are dead, the LoSS has died years ago, and I am suprised that there is no link to Microwiki yet.- Bill3000 21:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, for someone who claims to be an "expert" in your "sector" (whatever that is), you don't seem to know very much about micronations - or the terms "secession" and "simulation" for that matter. Reunion is a group of Brazilian kids pretending to rule an imaginary island empire that exists wolly and solely on the internet as a web site. If you class this as "secesionist" you're using a different definition of the term than the rest of the world. You also don't seem understand how Misplaced Pages works, or to have read or understood this article, which disusses the whole internet phenomenon at length, and includes plenty of references to micronations founded after 1970 (ie the vast majority of those discussed in this article). Secondly, if you think your "sector" is important enough to be included, include it - bearing in mind that whatever you write needs to be factual, NPOV and verifiable in published third party sources, just like all other Misplaced Pages content. Finally, if there are dead links, fix them. --Gene_poole 22:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Now I am just amused by your completely snobbish comments. I do know quite a lot about micronations - it's a matter of fact that you do not understand the rest of the micronationalist world, sticking to nations that you consider "notable" by the criteria that you have created, like your own micronation. The fact that you do not even know the concept of a micronational sector is proof of this, considering that it is a term used by non-english speaking micronationalists as well. (By the way, you can stop putting things in "quotations" now, as that implies that the things you are quoting are inferior, when in reality all you have shown is that you do not deserve your snobbish attitude that you have, as you really don't even know as much about internet micronationalism, as you have shown yourself.) Your critera for third party sources - "at least 5 offline sources which has "thousands" of viewers in "5 countires" - I seriously doubt that any micronation other than Sealand has that critera, and if that is the case, why even bother mentioning micronationalism at all? It is ridiculous to use the notability concept, as micronationalism is a diverse hobby - plenty of other online hobbies have more central communities. Micronationalism is more spread out, and this article doesn't even touch the surface of a significant side of micronationalism. The few successful micronational organizations (Which there are very few) tend to form groups of micronations within themselves rather than furfill a supra-micronational organizations or forums. As well, what is the point in me editing it if you are just going to edit it out, as you have just been doing recently anyways? - Bill3000 22:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

This conversation seems to be going nowhere fast, so I'm not going to spend any more time addressing the many logical inconsistencies, contradictions and factual inaccuracies in your comments. The bottom line is that you don't need to convince me - you need to convince the Misplaced Pages community, and the only way you can do that is by being able to back up your claims with supporting evidence. If you can't do that then you're just not going to get very far here (or anywhere else for that matter). --Gene_poole 01:22, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Bill, I welcome your contributions here. A good Misplaced Pages editor keeps in mind the policy of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks; please watch for comments like "you do not even know the concept of a micronational sector"; comments like this are petty and do not make you look good. The fact that "Gene Poole" responds with the personal insult "many logical inconsistencies, contradictions and factual inaccuracies", and does not honor Misplaced Pages:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers does not make him look very good. I am sure that you already know that "Gene Poole"'s article about what makes a micronation notable is not general Misplaced Pages consensus; it is his personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. While there is some opposition to micronations, there is no consensus; feel free to make the edits you want to make, but remember that anyone else can revert or change your edits. Also remember Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule and, better yet, Misplaced Pages:One-revert rule. Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Samboy 04:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Question About Editing

I'm not an experienced Wiki user, so i hope you'll forgive me if I made an error of ettiquette or something. I tried to edit the entry for the Aerican Empire, adding something about the nation's long history and removing quote marks around the words "interplanetary empire." Mere seconds later, i found the context of the age reference I put in changed and the quote marks back on. I'd like to know why Gene (I think it was Gene; I'm still learning ho to read who did what) felt the need to alter my change and why everyone seems so intent on leaving that bit in quotes. If it's considered polite to make a post explaining any changes one makes, I apologise for not knowing it and will try to be better in the future.

You might want to review Misplaced Pages's editing policies before contributing. In short, anyone can edit anything, anytime, so long as they conform with those policies. I restored the inverted commas around "interplanetary empire" to properly illustrate the joke-like nature of the claim. Removing them suggests Aerica really does posess an interplanetary empire, which is a ludicrous proposition. The reference to its age was moved for better word-flow. It was not deleted. --Gene_poole 23:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not a joke claim, that's the issue here. They take it quite seriously, and I don't think you've even investigated your interpretation of their claim. The fact that something is laughable doesn't make it false. Furthermore, what you gain in word flow, you lose in accuracy, but before I change it again I'll try to find a better way to write it myself.

It's not about what "they" claim. It's about presenting their (laughable) claim using a neutral point of view (NPOV) - which is exactly what the inverted commas do. This is a fundamental Misplaced Pages content requirement. If you are unfamiliar with it you should probably refrain from editing articles until you are. --Gene_poole 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I read all about the NPOV, and that's where I think *you're* making your mistake. By adding the quotes, you're not showing a neutral view; you're taking your beliefs and inetrpretations and shaping the article accordingly. I can see why you woy that adding quotes makes it just, but you're saying yourself that you're highlighting the illegitimacy of a claim based solely on your feeling that it's illigitimate. Is there anything you might consider a valid compromise? Something like "a self-proclaimed interplanetary empire..." or "a nation claiming semi-ficticious interplanetary land..."?

This is not a process of negotiation, and it is not about anyone's "beliefs". It is a matter of fantasy versus reality. It is NPOV to include the inverted commas because no sane person could ever seriously assert that neither Aerica nor any other entity currently in existence posesses an interplanetary empire - which is what removing them implies. There is no evidence to suggest Aerica is anything other than a joke created by a group of adolescents with over-active imaginations and a website. There is really nothing else to say on the subject unless some evidence to the contrary can be produced. --Gene_poole 00:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Diplomacy having failed (at least partially my own fault, I freely admit), I've just added the NPOV-section dispute tag. Seems like that's all that can be done, though i'm happy to discuss things further. --User:Timcrow 14 December 2005

Please don't add inappropriate and/or misleading tags to articles to try to prove a point. There's nothing NPOV about putting an unverifiable, unenforceable fantasy claim within inverted commas. You might also want to consider making a broader contribution to Misplaced Pages than editing 2 lines of 1 paragraph. Single-issue contributors are not considered part of the community, for obvious reasons. --Gene_poole 03:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

It is neither an inapropriate tag nor a misleading one. You and I disagree about each others' neutrality, therefore the neutrality of the section is disputed. Your use of otherwise innocuous terms as pejorative is hardly neutral, as is your taking it upon yourself to decide what is and is not, in your words, sane. You can keep re-adding the quote marks after I remove them, as is your right (and in fact, I quite respect anybody who holds onto their convictions as tightly as you obviously do) but you can hardly claim that I'm in the wrong for putting up a tag which says simply that someone, somewhere, disputes the neutrality. As for single issue contributors not being part of the community, you're quite right... I'm not part of it. I'm just a guy who sees a single factual error and feel the duty to correct it; I leave writing encyclopedias to people with grander designs than mine. --User:Timcrow 15 December 2005

And taking the link out after it'd been there for the gods only know how long without you objecting... that just feels petty to me, although if you had a reason to do it I'll gladly listen to it. --User:Timcrow 15 December 2005

If you'd bothered to read the discussion archives you'd see that it was established as a consensus at least a year ago not link to individual micronation websites. I don't see why yours should be the sole exception out of the dozens discussed within this article. --Gene_poole 00:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You can always come to Wiki to watch silly bickering... that's half the fun of being here. Out of curiosity, what's the big deal? I'm not involved with any of these "micronation" things, but it seems to me that anybody coming to this page will know that an interplanetary empire is unrealistic even without the aid of inverted commas. Why not leave the inverted commas off and let people make their own judgements? That's what these articles are supposed to do, and if it'll make mister Timcrow happy (and quiet) then it's a small price to pay. You should probably also leave that link up; I plugged it into a site stat generator and it looks like, for some reason, the "pejorative" article still brings these kids plenty of nice hits as it is. You should take down that silly NPOV tag, though... Gene is right that this is an argument about semantics, not neutrality. --The Random Unregistered User

Hey, according to IPs, it looks like Timcrow uses a computer at the same university I do (although that accounts for about thirty thousand computers...). If you want, Gene, I could probably track him down for you... --The Random Unregistered User

Thanks for the offer but my knowing who he is is not really going to help him see reason. I've already wasted too much time on this. I really wish people would bother to read these discussions properly before jumping in to promote their pet project, so we don't have to repeat the same discussion every time another one crops up to tell us that their micronation is different from all the others. --Gene_poole 00:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Given how things have turned out, I'll drop everything now. I'd prefer if the link was back up, but since all the offsite links came down, and even I freely admit that Aerica doesn't merit its own wiki entry, I can't really criticize that. For what it's worth, George, I've made a note of some of the other articles you list on your interests page, to make sure I can stay away from them; I'll try to spare you my company in the future. --User:Timcrow 16 December 2005

More Melchizedek nonsense

I have modified the entry on Melchizedek so that the nature of this entity is stated as plainly as possible, without recourse to weasel-wording designed to obscure the facts. The previous convoluted statement concerning "banks it licensensed" falsely suggests that Melchizedek and the non-existent banks that were used by its members to defraud people are somehow unrelated. This is arrant nonsense, unsupported by any third party source, and as has no place in this article. --Gene_poole 00:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Gene, you need to cite credible sources to back this up. Which members of DOM used the banks to carry out fraud? Furthermore, where do you read from credible sources that DOM has been "condemned for promoting fraud"? Johnski 00:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, both of you are now at the three revert limits for the immediate future, and reading the history and comments all I can say is that you're dragging a personal flamewar into the editorial process. The actual edits were not that significantly different to justify this sort of behavior on either side.

Keep in mind that further reverts in the immediate future by either of you will invoke the 3RR policy upon yourselves and get your write access locked. Do we need to nominate for page temporary locking to stop this nonsensical edit war? Georgewilliamherbert 03:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Micronation

(I started to paste this into the talk page of all the micronation category articles, but then it occurred to me that I only need to do it here. If anyone wants to finish the job of inviting people via indvidual talk pages, please feel free.)

I've just started a template for the micronation infobox, based on the Sealand box. I've also written usage guidelines on it's talk page. I'd like to please invite any interested people to go over its talk page to discuss the template itself, along with my guidelines. As a demo of the template, please see Lovely (micronation), which I just edited to use the template. --Billpg 23:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

1990s neologism?

I read a book published in 1978 which uses the word "micronation." I know no details, and ask that someone with knowledge as to the origin of the term correct the part saying that the word originated in the '90s.

We can't really make any such change without actual evidence of usage. I'm not personally aware of any use of the term in the current context before the early 1990s. --Gene_poole 01:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Micronations

I know there's already a Micronation category, but I'm going to create a new page List of Micronations later tonight. This will become the place where it's ok for everyone to list their favorite otherwise poorly known micronation. The main article can then abstract itself backwards a little away from the minutae of who hates or promotes which micronation, into categories and general information, with agreeable specific notable examples where appropriate.

Please don't jump the gun and start this list until I get it started and formatted. The objective is to organise and order the information, not just create a swamp full of it, and random formatting or content will be detrimental. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 02:53, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. I hope it will decrease those additions and subsequent reverts. mahlered 03:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh, it's already there, and pretty useless. I'm going to try and fix that. Georgewilliamherbert 04:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Point of view

This article does not take into consideration micronations that are trying to become "real countries." It assumes all micronations are fantasy and dreams of the founders. All micronations are not fantasy, and this article does not account for that. Kilroy Collins

I disagree with that. A number of micronations are legitimate aspirants to microstate status... Sealand, at least, and arguably the Hutt River Province and a couple of the new island projects which failed were good tries at it as well. (I make no prediction as to whether any of these, or anyone else, will ultimately succeed... but some are making credible runs at trying). Please don't generalize from the negative feedback you're getting on Middle Korea to 'the whole article'.

If you have a better case to make that Middle Korea is justifyably more real, including some real world actual reference material etc, please feel free to post it. I personally have no objection to expanding the list of credible aspirants given reliable evidence. Georgewilliamherbert 20:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Reunion

I have just added a few informations about the Holy Empire of Reunion, for it was cited with no characteristics whatsoever, differently from ALL other cited micronations.

Also, I´d like to point to whoever said that "Réunion´s a group of kids" that the Empire is formed by 156 members, whose age range from 12 to 76 years old. So that´s a lie. Our discussion list can be found at http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/chandon/ and there anyone is able to see the number of members and ALL the messages of our political simulation.

Claudre 22:22, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Please sign all comments in the future; use four ~ characters in a row to do so (this creates the name/date signature you see everyone else using... Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 20:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

On "Cybernations"

I would support a "Cybernation" article, but the problem with this is that it is not a term used within the hobby - for example, micronations.net, within its community and its website, does not use the term at all. ("Apart from a few serious secessionist movements, most micronations are essentially nation-state simulations, with varying degrees of seriousness.") So the issue here is how exactly this should be resolved. - Bill3000 07:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Reunion

There is NO reason why Reunion cannot have a small overview done using the Talossan example and template. It´s as notable. Each cited nation MUST receive a small explanation. That should work for ALL micronations cited. Claudre 22:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

At most Reunion is of marginal significance, worthy of a 2-line overview. We don't need to add extraneous minutiae such as the name of its mailing list, as such details are "padding" that are of no relevance to non-members of the group. --Gene_poole 01:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Reunion is one of the largest (if not the largest) non-anglophone micronation. How is that not significant? - Bill3000 02:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

In the greater scheme of things that doesn't mean much. It's still just a web-based simulation, and not a particularly original one at that. The fact that it's Brazilian is of minor notability, which is why it's been included in the list in the first place. --Gene_poole 03:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

So a micronation that's very notible within the micronational community, is not notable according to wikipedia because it is not secessionist? How about vice-versa? That's kind of an odd statement. - Bill3000 03:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

A micronation that exists largely or solely as a website is of extremely marginal notability unless there's some verifiable evidence of it actually interacting with the real world or having an influence in some way on events documented as taking place in the real world. Misplaced Pages exists to document reality. It does not exist to serve as a promotional tool for the owner of every minor website, mailing list, bulletin board or blog in existence. --Gene_poole 04:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd even take a step further; the micronational community can't redefine the common standard usage of the term micronation, and Misplaced Pages should document first and foremost for the outside user looking in, though specific internal details of the movement may be notable and appropriate. There are a lot of simulations and protest movements and such which dont' fit under the secessionist or independence-seeking common definition... Georgewilliamherbert 04:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's probably better to call it "simulationist micronations" rather than simulations, really, considering that political simulations are a different thing altogether. (For example, a simulation of the US Congress as opposed to a micronation simulated on a fictional world) The problem I find here is that it seems to be misleading here - namely, te example micronations arn't good. While they are picked for their notability, not all of them are good examples of the . For example, if someone wants information on internet micronations, even Talossa is not a good example, because they have blockaded themelves from the micronational community ages ago. Another good example is that the article mentions both the League of Micronations and the League of Secessionist States, but the LoM has been disbanded, and the LoSS is completely inactive as well. I got a question. Is there standard rules for Internet phenomena on Misplaced Pages? In other words, I wish to know what it means for something on the internet to be considered "notable" - I find it way too vague. Perhaps there can be different factors for notability for online micronationalism (and have its own section in the article), or it can merit its own article to describe its differences from other micronations? - Bill3000 05:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Create List of minor micronations?

How about an extra page for the micronations deemed not-notable enough for their own article? This could be a middle way to the Keep/Delete choice when a micronation comes up for deletion. --Billpg 22:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to be open to using List of micronations for both major and minor ones; the main article would include truly notable ones, and the List would be open to just about anything, though particularly credible ones would be tagged per the list notes. Gene opposes inclusivism to some extent, Bill3000 is enthusiastically for it; I am trying to stay practical and neutralish in the middle. The primary barrier so far has been lack of my time and focus to actually move info about all the more minor micronations into the list. Georgewilliamherbert 00:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally missed that one. Thanks for the link. --Billpg 00:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems some merit to the idea in my view, it would be a place to house things not worthy of an article (and redirects of those things to it would perhaps forestall needless recreation of articles sure to be deleted again). ++Lar: t/c 17:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Category_talk:Micronations#Comments on criteria sought

based on some comments in various current AfDs it may be worth talking about the criteria that are posited and empirically supported in the category talk page. This cross pointer is to raise awareness. ++Lar: t/c 17:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

"several dozen members" of reunion

Someone said:

(cur) (last) 01:01, 3 February 2006 Cdc m (→Social, economic, or political simulations - rm minor project with "several dozen members", article resoundingly deleted on AfD. also delink self-redirect)

That someone could visit http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/chandon/ and check the number of messages and different members. Reunion has been in this article for years. No reason to remove it now.

Claudre 23:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

If this survives its current deletion attempt, should we include it in Micronations, and if so under what section?: Harvardy 08:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Artistic creations

I've removed Grand Fenwick, Syldavia, Borduria and one other from the list of "artistic creations" as they are all merely settings for fictional stories. As they are not self-contained creative projects that exist in their own right they are not micronations. --Gene_poole 22:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Cascadia

I've removed Cascadia from the list of Micronations furthering an agenda on the basis that Cascadia, to my knowledge, does not exist in micronation form, and would be roughly the size of western Europe if it did. Reveilled 20:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Recognition of micronations as micronations by real nations

The press has recognized the existence of micronations, but are there any samples of real nations making reference to micronations as a category or specifically recognizing any micronation as a "micronation", using that term? Harvardy 19:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I found an example of such over at Talk:DominionofMelchizedek but it is an agency of a government, and calls the micronation a virtual nation instead:

“UNDR reincorporated in the Dominion of Melchizedek in 1996, and filed bankruptcy petition in Melchizedek in 1998. Melchizedek is essentially a virtual nation that exists at www.Melchizedek.com, although its website makes claims to treaty rights to some uninhabitable atolls in the South Pacific.”

http://sec.gov/litigation/opinions/34-53122a.pdf

No one can find other examples? Harvardy 07:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: Harvardy is a sockpuppet of Johnski who was recently banned by the Arbcom for various editing abuses over many months at Dominion of Melchizedek and a swathe of related artricles. His comments above are more of the same nonsense, and are designed merely to insinuate DOM content into other articles. --Gene_poole 03:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one that found the reference to "virtual nation" from the SEC web site. I really don't see how Harvardy is trying to insinuate DOM content into other articles with this question? What other articles? This article on micronations already mentions DOM, and the question seems legitimate. I'd also like to know if any real government or agency thereof has identified any so-called micronation as a "virtual nation" or a "micronation". If DOM is the only micronation to have been classified as such, it seems worth incorporating that in this article. Does anyone see any difference between a "micronation" and a "virtual nation"? Whatsupdoc 02:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Whatsupdoc is also a sockpuppet of Johnski due to his limited contribution and obsessive comments about DOM. Davidpdx 07:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't DOM being opined by the SEC to be a "virtual nation" something to consider at micronations? Looks equally like Davidpdx is the one obsessed with DOM and only a few other items due to his limited interests 207.47.122.10 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Abaco Independence Movement and some others

1. It seems there ought to be some reference to Abaco (an island group, NE part of the Bahamas) here, especially as the Abaco entry in Misplaced Pages mentions the effort in the 1960s and 70s to get Abaco to secede from the Bahamas. As late as the 1974 Libertarian National Convention there were libertarians talking up the idea of the Abaco Independence Movement (AIM) complete with bumper stickers.

2. Within the US historically there have been other micronation anomalies besides Indian Stream, VT. For example, the Free State of Franklin (then western NC, now northeast TN, 1780s) and the short-lived Republic of West Florida (1810) which actually lasted longer than the later Bear Flag Republic in California, the Florida Republic (1817), and Freedonia (east Texas/Mexico, 1836).

3. Didn't the Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem and Malta - aka Hospitalers, and later the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM) - issue passports from its HQ in Rome as late as the 1960s?

I don't hang about here enough to know how to write up an article or edit one, but I would like to leave these thoughts for someone who might have the expertise and interest to do so.