What is wrong with adding the alternative name in the intro and use that as the link to the naming dispute section. Almost all other encyclopedias have a paragraph dedicated to the naming dispute - it is usually in the history or politics/government sections. All encyclopedias mention the naming dispute OUTSIDE such sections. --LionKing 12:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

How about this head:

The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia (constitutional name Macedonian: Република Македонија, United Nations membership name: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or FYROM) is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east.

This is the most neutral head I can think of. It doesn't coin names such as "official" and "unofficial", it just tells the truth. It also links to the naming dispute with FYROM. Miskin 12:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Miskin, did you ever heard what is footnote? Bomac 13:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have, it's for citing sources, not a way of hiding vital info. --LionKing 13:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No I "did never heard" of it. I'm providing a footnote-free solution above, link goes directly to section. Footnotes by default are used because they will only be checked by a minority of readers, which is far from our scope here. By the way, the image "Satellite view of the Republic of Macedonia" will go. I think everyone would agree that it should Macedonia (Greece) and only a tip of the republic. Does the POV-pushing have any limits? Miskin 13:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if you don't repeat things. You know that FYROM is a Greek POV and a Greek case of onania. FYROM exists only in the Greek "hot-heads" such as yours. The Greek leftists prooved that. Bomac 13:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You guys do you ever stop? FYROM is as NPOV as it can get. Greek POV is Skopje. Every Greek refers to your country as Skopje. Greek position is that your country should not have any mention AT ALL of Macedonia in its name, simply because YOU STOLE IT from us! Just to put things in a perspective here.--Avg 13:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. Macedonian POV about Greece is Athens. Let's make a compromise - FOGOP. Is that acceptable for greek users? I guess since there were wars to the north and an illegal blockade to the south (by greece), my country have done the unthinkable and allowed its neighbour to bully it and put a ridiculous temporary name on it. In the same circumstances Greece would have been called FOGOP. But in such circumstances I can't imagine the greek users would ask for this to be mentioned in every corner of the article. --Realek 14:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference. I don't make up from my mind what I write as you do. Greeks DO refer to your country as Skopje (and formally "Republic of Skopje"). I agree with you that FYROM is NOT, I repeat NOT, a good name. Of course you have the right to have a proper name, it's a fundamental right of self-determinance. But can you please leave our history out of it, please? --Avg 14:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

So if majority of greeks think that way, then it's ok? I see. But nevermind that - what you're saying is we can choose our name but greece should have veto power over it. Come on now. Are you serious !? --Realek 14:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course we don't have anything to do with your internal name (nor do we want to). But as far as international recognition goes and since I think we're also part of the international community, we can object to what you chose if it insults us. This is what we did, this is why we have seeked mediation. This is why the whole issue has been going on for 14 years. I don't know what you might think of Greeks, but in all polls most Greeks tend towards the left than the right. This is not a nationalistic issue. It is an identity issue. By appropriating the name and the history of Macedonia, you deny all Greek Macedonians of their identity. --Avg 14:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right. We have the right to choose a name for internal use and you have the right to impose a name for international use!? And thats why you have seeked mediation!? I would add to this: and because that makes so much sense, you have been loosing ground permanently since the time you created the problem. Also the mediation is going more and more in Macedonia's favour. --Realek 15:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And let me ask you how the name Republic of Macedonia is insulting??? Furthermore how it wasn't insulting until 1991. --Realek 15:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

We have not imposed anything. You prefer not to remember that you have accepted this provisional name. And, since you seem to ignore what I have written before, this provisional name is a bitter compromise to Greeks as well, because the name Macedonia is still inside FYROM. How it is insulting? That's simple. You proclaim yourselves as the descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians, while it is obvious that you are of Slavic descent and the first Slavs only came to the area hundreds of years after Alexander, you adopt as a flag a symbol that is Greek (and found in a Greek city), your constitution speaks about parts of Macedonia under occupation and so on...Thankfully, some of these are now resolved. Some others though, still remain. About "losing ground", well that's a personal opinion on yours, as far as I'm concerned all international organisations refer to you as FYROM. Anyway I have the feeling the naming issue will be resolved soon (and that's what Condoleezza Rice hinted to, a couple of weeks ago when she met our foreign minister). I really want to get over it as much as you do.--Avg 15:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes you imposed it. And we did not accept it - we were forced to temporarily swallow the insult by our bully neighbour. Even if I accept that there are a lot of people in Macedonia negating our slavic ancestry (there aren't), the greeks have no more claim over Alexander than we do. Anyway it's not an insult no matter how you put it. But you didn't answer - how it wasn't insulting until 1991??? Your claim that the vergina(kutlesh) sun is greek is false. It's an ancient Macedonian symbol. Your claim that there were parts of the constitution that speaked about parts of Macedonia under occupation and so on is pure and simple lie!. There was an article wich obliged Macedonia to care for the minority rights of macedonians abroad. And Greece bullied us into erasing it. I wonder why since greece claims there are no other people than greeks in greece. Anyway it's not related to the name dispute so dont't drag it into it. The "loosing ground" by greece i mentioned is not my oppinion but it's a clear trend. Finally Condoleezza Rice hinted nothing that greece should be happy about - quite the opposite. If they are telling you that you should be happy about it, then you have a real big problem with the media in greece. --Realek 16:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a nice story, but it has no dragon. We did not impose this name. If we could impose our opinion, you would now be called Republic of Skopje, because this is what we wanted and we could not achieve. So much for Greek influence. As for who has more claims over Alexander, well it so happens that he was living in what now is Greece, he had a Greek name, he spoke a Greek dialect and he lead the Greek armies to the East. And nobody was doubting all this for thousands of years, until some neo-historians decided to write their own version of history. Funny that you mention that there aren't a lot of people negating your slavic ancestry, because when the name Slavomacedonia or Slavic Macedonia came to the table you refused it (probably because of the Albanian minority). You bring up again what happened before 1991. As I had already said, before that this was an internal name, with no international significance. You couldn't mess up with the internal parts of another country. And back then, you were far less provocative. The absurdity about being descendants of Macedon and Alexander came to prominence when you gained your independence, I guess there was a need to create an identity for a new nation. About the media, I can agree that we have a problem in Greece, but that's because they make crap series:-) --Avg 17:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I just saw it, even your country motto "Liberty or death" is taken from ours! But I guess that's ok. See, no grudges here, it's a nice motto after all. --Avg 15:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You're getting more and more ridicolous. Anyway thanx for allowing us to use it, but where is your proof that it is taken from you. Maybee it's the other way around. Let me return the favour - you are allowed to used just becouse we are so nice. --Realek 16:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, i could not help it not replying to that:) the greek flag has 9 strips cause 9 are the syllabes of the phrase 'freedom or death' in greek, and in 1821-1828 the motto was written on the ensigns. but i will not be surprised if u say that the greek flag was originally a fyromian symbol...lol...after claiming Alecander the Great and Ancient Macedonians were not greek, and now implying that even the motto of Greece is not 'really' greek, i can expect everything, right?:) --Hectorian 17:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Well this happens to be the official motto of our revolution against the Ottomans in 1821. I guess this settles the precedence. But, as I said before, it is not offending if someone elses uses our motto, in fact I consider a great thing that we believe in the same values. Because beliefs, everybody can have the same. But when facts are distorted, here is where the problem begins. --Avg 17:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I need not remind you WP:NPA again Realek. Do I? You could say: "your arguements are getting more and more ridiculous", though. Anyway, to the (irrelevant) point: Liberty or Death was the motto of the Greek War of Independence in 1821. You didn't make a revolution that early. Did you?  NikoSilver  17:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes that would be a better way to put it: your arguements are getting more and more ridiculous! Anyway - if you feel that you have grounds to report a personal attack (especially after all things you said) please do report it. Now about your claim that Macedonians didn't make revolutions before 1821. They did! Long before. Read about Marivska Buna, Karposhovo Vostanie etc. But that's not really relevant. You don't need a revolution to have a motto. And the Komitas used this motto from who knows when. --Realek 17:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Now you got it right! See? Not only User:Reaper7 learns from me! :-) Anyway, I guess it's just one of those generic mottos that anybody can have, cause it's simple and powerful. Maybe Greeks used it before they rebel also. I really have no idea who used it first and to tell you the truth, I don't care. Do you? I think it is the FYROM mentioning in the intro we are supposed to discuss here. Right?  NikoSilver  19:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was Avg who dragged the "motto issue" in this discussion, not me. --Realek 20:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you prove for ONCE in your life that you don't need to have the last word, even if the other party has an agreeable approach? Should you always indulge in answering irrelevancies? Don't you understand that the more you delay with this, the worst it is for you?  NikoSilver  21:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, NikoSilver. Greece doesn't have to block FYROM joining the EU, only to delay it indefinitely... right until FYROM is the only state in Europe which hasn't joined and the most backward state in Europe. Greece can make life really hard for FYROM so that's why they'll have to heed Condoleezza Rice's suggestion and co-operate and agree on a name for the whole world to recognize. I don't know what that name'll be, but I know it'll not be Republic of Macedonia. Everyone knows that, except Realek obviously, who just attacks Greece and makes his little digs all the time. Well done!. --LionKing 17:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Another brilliant and non-disputable Greek argument. They are the bullies and they will have it their way, no metter what! Fortunately greece is no position to be a bully on the world stage and this is just wisfull thinking on behalf of LionKing. And could you please provide me a link to this statement of Condoleezza Rice that so favorable to greece. It looks to me that you're just making it up. --Realek 17:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't - it's the international official name. This was demonstrated at the Olympic Games and the Eurovision ;-) --LionKing 13:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As I've said before... ;-) Bomac 13:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

---> United Nations It's your World ;-) --LionKing 13:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's your world when Greece POV-pushes everything for it's own onania... I wonder what will it be if Greece wasn't such a onanious country? Surely, the UN itself will react for the name... Bomac 13:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, Bomac. The name FYROM will become permanent when you join the EU under that name ;-) LionKing 13:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Are you living in smt. called "The Greek 21 century"? Sure is bad... Bomac 13:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I for one believe that the article should be renamed to FYROM. Heraklios

And have you heard about the "flatfoot"?  NikoSilver  13:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" used to refer to the state in the U.N. admission was not a name at all; it was a diplomatic way to avoid the name. Note the use of lower case, which I reproduced exactly as in the original documents. It is just plain incorrect to say "FYROM" is the "name" or "formal title" of the country. The only way to cover the whole naming issue correctly and in proper context is in a paragraph, as discussed at great length in the archives. Jonathunder 13:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, the CIA World Factbook does the exact opposite of what you're saying http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html. It mentions the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro and has other sections to deal with it as well. --LionKing 13:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And, by "great length" you obviously refer to the "consensus" that is disputed by more users than those who took part in it, right?  NikoSilver  13:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually the phrase "The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia" should be changed to The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia". These are the two formal names. If someone refers to this country colloquially as Macedonia, it does not constitute a reason for the article to mention that on the first line, perhaps somewhere below. Why in articles about the Greek region of Macedonia everyone takes care to explicitly state that it is about "the Greek region of Macedonia", while every Greek refers to it by simply Macedonia? I cannot accept the usage of the name Macedonia as a reference to the country. --Avg 13:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right. At Austria, ONLY the formal name is mentioned. --LionKing 13:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Why not make the intro like this:

The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), also known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (in Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ)), is...

--LionKing 13:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Jonathunder makes a very important legal point. The refference is not a name - it is what it is a refference. The UN is not and it didn't claim then, to be in charge of naming my country. The name of a country is a sovereign decision of the particular country. So a phrase like "also known as" is false. It's not like an alternative name or something. It's a temproary refference. --Realek 14:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

If the CIA World Factbook can say something, then so can Misplaced Pages. --LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Really??? Well CIA is an USA agency. And USA recognizes the constitutional name. Am I free to conclude that we solved the issue and that from now on only "Republic of Macedonia" will be used in wikipedia? --Realek 14:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

…and why you don’t want to accept that the provisional reference is not a name at all, that it is just a reference used in some international organizations under Greek pressure, that the ordinary people throughout the world except Greeks are using Macedonia and Macedonians for my country and my people, that there is a whole section in the disputed article created just to describe the dispute… If we continue this way, we will never reach a consensus or compromise. And then, we will restore the previous compromise as the only relevant at the moment. Bitola 14:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Which compromise. The state of having FYROM in the intro which we had for THREE WHOLE YEARS? That was a really effective compromise. If the CIA World Factbook can do it, then so can Misplaced Pages (NikoSilver's proposal). You still didn't give your opinion on the poll idea. --LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Bitola this is exactly what you are trying to achieve under the table. The de facto recognition of your country with the name Macedonia. Sorry mate, it won't happen. --Avg 14:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not so powerfull to do so:) (not that I don't want that). Just to answer to the newbee(?) LionKing comment, the "Naming dispute" section wasn't there for THREE YEARS also as I created it to serve as part of the compromise. So, ok, lets include the reference in the intro and remove the section. Bitola 14:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I oppose erasing all the information in that section. I think it may be OK to merge it into some other section (that's what other encyclopedias have done) and I quite like the way this issue has been handled at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html. --LionKing 14:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Again with the "CIA argument". LionKing -that is not valid. If you're so into the american POV go to the state department's site , and see whats their position. --Realek 14:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's valid. Have you read the intro. Their position explains the current location of this article - that could change quickly if a poll were to be called. They mention the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro (in a descriptive sense) and elsewhere. Therefore so can Misplaced Pages. If you can't (or don't want to) understand, don't make it my problem. --LionKing 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse it's your problem too when you make an invalid argument.

• Your position is: CIA said that and we should copy it to wikipedia. CIA is the ultimate source.
• I'm saying that if this rationale is accepted then: CIA is under the control of US government and their position is clear - they recognize the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia. So only this name should be used.

I'm only saying this to explain that your point is invalid. You might be a newbie, so you still don't understand that you cannot just apply a solution found on 1 site. Especially in disputed articles. --Realek 15:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The CIA website proves that the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia exists for even those who recognise the country as Republic of Macedonia - therefore there is no reason to exclude it from the introduction here. That page mentions it in the introduction, therefore so can Misplaced Pages. I am not trying to use the CIA page to rename this article, that would be foolish. I'm giving an example of an organization, which recognises you a Republic of Macedonia, but which mentions the name FYROM in the introduction of its descriptive publications and elsewhere. Therefore so can Misplaced Pages. If I wanted to rename the page, I'd be citing pages like Encarta, which refers to you only as FYROM. You still haven't understood, have you? --LionKing 15:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Latinus, The CIA site is not a proof. It's a site. But if you consider it a proof you're welcome to edit the ΠΓΔΜ article on the greek wikipedia according to it. --Realek 15:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Is Latinus in this talk? Anyway, I am: The factbook is not proof. It is one important book that includes a lot of info about countries. It is also an indication, that countries who recognise FYROM under RoM, such as the US, also use the FYROM term. Greece does not recognise the RoM term. The Greek WP is for Greek readers. Greek readers call you Skopia (maybe instead of ΠΓΔΜ which is the translation of FYROM, we should use Skopia instead, as it is more widely used in Greece). The article there signifies the country's intention to be named plain "Macedonia". This is the English version. The English speakers use both names (regarless of the country as explained above with the CIA example). Therefore, both names must appear EQUALLY per WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Now what part don't you understand?  NikoSilver  16:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Really??? You expose yourself more and more everytime you post. So according to you greek wikipedia is for greeks only and furthermore they shouldn't know about anything else than the greek irational point of view. Good luck with the greek wikipeda then. --Realek 16:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Something irrelevant(sort of): could someone archive this page? and write a reference about the archive (so that noone to tell me that i am asking to hide comments)? i would do it myself if i knew how. the page takes ages to load! --Hectorian 16:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Did it. I archived everything irrelevant to this talk. Please keep in mind that this is still a huge talk, despite the fact that I sent about half of it to new Archive 8. I am also adding a new heading below, cause it's getting increasingly difficult to locate one above. You can rename it accordingly.  NikoSilver  16:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Validation of the term FYROM

I just made some quick search in articles about other countries. In Iran, it is stated in the first paragraph the former name of the country (Persia), which i must say is still in use (to a small extent) in Greece (and maybe in other countries as well). In the article Greece, the name Hellenic Republic (the name we use for our country) is stated in the first paragraph. we never call our country 'Greece'. yet, since this is how we are called abroad, the name is used primarily in the article. there is no reason not to mention the name 'FYROM' in this article. it is a legal, official and internationally recognised name (which the government of RoM has accepted in order to participate in the organisations and to have diplomatic relations with other countries-notably Greece, but also UK,Australia,France,etc). the people of RoM may call their country 'Macedonia', but since other many countries and all the intern. organizations refer to it as FYROM, wikipedia has to mention it. --Hectorian 17:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

1. The name greece was not imposed to you
2. FYROM is not a name but a refference
3. We did not accept it - it was temporarily forced upon us and the date to wich it was to be used has passed
4. Much more countries recognise the constitutional name than the other way around (not to mention that those that still reffer to as a former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia can and are changing their minds quite frequently now; an example of the opposite has not been recorded - the trend is clear)
5. A lot of organisations recognize tha constitutional name so stop claiming that all organizations don't. Also NATO is an interesting case, since you include it in those that reffer to us as FYROM. As user Dipazi mentioned - in all NATO documents concerning Macedonia it is mentioned wich members recognize the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia

--Realek 17:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This is exactly why you don't want a solution. Because you count on people getting bored to say the full name FYROM (something perfectly normal, I would do the same if I wasn't Greek). But you know they do that because they don't know there is a very serious issue behind it. Where the issue has been raised (and that is at ALL international organisations where Greece is a member, NATO included), the agreed compromise is used. Here is what will happen: Pressure is applied to both parts to finally get over this naming dispute. We don't like it, you don't like it, sooner rather than later we will reach an agreement and it will NOT be Macedonia, because it simply can't be. And then everybody will refer to your country with this newly agreed name, abandoning Macedonia. --Avg 17:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right, because greek arguments make so much sence. --Realek 20:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

1. but it is still used

2. it is a name used (it is not just a reference)

3. u do not know the future. if greece and fyrom agree in a name, all these countries will accept it

4. all international organizations recognise u by the name FYROM. UN,EU,FIFA,Council of Europe,UEFA,UNESCO,NATO(NATO uses the name FYROM, some members may not-i am not talking about the NATO-members, but about the organization itself)

...hmmm...it will be very interesting to see if Bulgaria will continue to recognise u as 'Macedonia'... next year Bulgaria will be an EU member, and EU does not recognise that name...I do not know how things are going in such situations, but i am curious:) --Hectorian 17:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

1. Irellevant to the point I made
2. Not a name - a refference
3. You skiped this one and "answered" 4. Anyway You say that all organisations... Are those 6 all the organisations in the world??? And don't distort my words about nato. I didn't only say that some members of NATO recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name, but also that it is mentioned in every document concerning macedonia.

And Hectorian let me satisfy your curiosity about what will happen with Bulgaria. They will change nothing. The relations between the two nations are much better than you would like to admit and much better than they will ever be with Greece for Macedonians and Bulgarians alike. The disputes sadly come out exactly from the closeness of the two nations. But let me be more specific about what happens with countries that join EU and recognize Macedonia: Nothing! Take the Slovenian example. You can also take the Poland's example - They joined the EU and they recognized the constitutional name after that. --Realek 20:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is outside the point. Nobody disputes the de facto existence of the name Macedonia by some (many) counties and in some context. It is the FYROM editors that dispute the existence of the name FYROM by all other countries and all int'l orgs. Can you focus on that please and stop hypothesising about what'll happen in the future?  NikoSilver  19:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That's the point. apart from my last sentence, all the above show that the name 'FYROM' is in use and that's why it has to be mentioned. --Hectorian 19:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

But it should not be mentioned too many times. --Realek 20:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me, only the other side is defending "Macedonia", while it should be offending "FYROM".  NikoSilver  19:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This happens because greek users change topics too often (every time they feel defeated in the discussion). You even dragged the economic issues again today. I didn't answer to such an irrelevant thing altough lies were written in order to proove that irrelevant point - that greece is the most important economic partner of Macedonia (it's not, it is 3rd and you can check your beloved CIA factbook for this)

Perhaps the other side has not understood that we are not discussing to ommit the name 'Macedonia', but to include the name 'FYROM' as well... --Hectorian 20:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

How many times should this name be mentioned in the article in your oppinion? (and the naming dispute mentioned) --Realek 20:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

For sure it has to be mentioned in the beginning. 'bout the rest, i do not know, and i've not counted yet. --Hectorian 20:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Please give a straightforward answer. --Realek 20:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, What is acceptable:

Check the talk above to see what is acceptable.  NikoSilver  20:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No it is not acceptable! BTW is "FYROM in the intro -OR- rename article as such" an ultimatum or something? --Realek 20:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Is no fyrom in the title an ultimatum or something?  NikoSilver  20:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No NikoSilver, an ultimatum is when you say something like: do this or else. My point was: since you know that there will not be any renaming, you are trying to look like you are ready for compromise. --Realek 20:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. Are you all?  NikoSilver  21:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I really dont know what "Are you all?" means. Please clarify. --Realek 21:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As you perfectly understood, the three points proposed were already a compromise, since I am not going to ask for a rename (not that there isn't gonna be any -as you put it). The question is: Are you all ready for a compromise too? (your answer alone is not enough)  NikoSilver  21:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I am against your proposal and I don't see it as a compromise. --Realek 21:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok. We can move to the next level then, as I proposed several times above (like e.g. here). Can't we?  NikoSilver  21:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you need my permission for that? I'm quite new so I really don't know... But it would be strange... --Realek 21:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to exhaust all other possible means of compromise. Shouldn't you consult your fellow editors before you take the burden of such a binding decision for yourself? Especially since you are new, as you say.  NikoSilver  21:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

WHAT??? What burden have I taken? I just asked you a question... My coment is just above for you to distort it in this way. But if you missunderstood (quite inprobable) let me clarify my question - What do you need my permission for? And if you need the other's permission you should ask for it by them. I'm not in a position to decide for them even if you put words in my mouth. --Realek 21:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No, you misunderstood. Don't worry, you haven't taken any burden. I certainly don't need your approval for proceeding in the next level. But I think there can be compromise through talk and "ultimatum" talks usually lead to next level solutions. You know, this is the article talk page, not your personal talk page. "Them" could answer for themselves directly. NikoSilver  21:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

So what was the idea behind: Shouldn't you consult your fellow editors before you take the burden of such a binding decision for yourself? Any reason for saying that? And where did I express my readiness to take this burden you are talking about? --Realek 21:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It was frank. I want you all to think about taking this to the next level, instead of solving it right here. Nobody else answered, your "ultimatum" talk was inflamatory (and still is), and I tried to see if anybody else would answer. Now I am going to bed. I advise everybody to sleep on it.  NikoSilver  21:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And I still dont get it why you made that comment, but nevermind. --Realek 22:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. I will explain further: The comment was not in past tense; it was in present tense. That means, I did not imply that you took some kind of responsibility, as you falsely assumed in your next message. It implied an advice not to take (in future) one by yourself, without consulting. Still, there is no definite answer to my question from you and your fellow editors: Are you prepared for a compromise solution, or shall we proceed in the next level (poll/rfc)?  NikoSilver  14:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

If you think that your proposal is a compromise, then you are wrong. You are offering basically your version that is in a great extent rejected by almost all Macedonian editors and other editors as well. You were the one that violated the previous compromise, so then, go ahead, and offer some more reasonable compromise. To repeat again, nobody mentioned that we should exclude mentioning of provisional reference in the article, we are disputing the overloading of the article with that specific issue that is not so important as you are trying to make it. Find a way how to minimize the mentioning of naming dispute so it will no affect the overall design and content of this important article.Bitola 14:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if it was past tense or present tense. I did not take or tried to take any burden as you put it. I just asked a question. Like I said - my coment is just above for you to distort it in this way. And like I said (speaking only for myself) - I dont see your proposal as a compromise. Maybe I would consider it as a proposal if you specifically tell me: 1.how many times should the refference be mentioned in the text 2. be more specific about the naming dispute section. --Realek 16:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bitola, nice to see you in this talk. I thought you were still pestering. Here are my answers:

For "my proposal being compromise", think how you'd feel if the article was called FYROM and what you'd ask in intro.

For "other editors as well" please check here, and here.

For "violated the previous compromise" please check points First and Second.

For "overloading with not so important issue", you must be kidding. Check point Third.

For what is required check here and here.

Still waiting for your (and fellow editors) answer on the previous question. :-)  NikoSilver  15:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

If you think that I have all day to chat with you or that I'm affraid of your "proposal", you are terrribly wrong.Bitola 15:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I am sure you do (for both). The following proposal, was just a logical next step by the rest of the Greek users, and I had nothing to do with it, except for providing the necessary indisputable arguements here.  NikoSilver  18:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Parliament apologizes in Skopje

On 4 April 2006, the RoM/FYROM parliament apologized to the victims of the communist regime. Does the apology extend to the Greek Slav-Macedonian victims who suffered at the hands of Slav Macedonian communists in Greece, during the Greek civil war? Many of those perpetrators moved to southern Yugoslavia and some continued their oppressive policies. The Skopje parliament said some 50,000 people were subjected to communist oppression in Macedonia (Fyrom). Politis 17:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Please dont try to look sad about the faith of Macedonians under communism. Your feelings towards Macedonians are well known. Now about the apology - it was needed. Everybody must face the facts from their countries past. I just wonder when Greece is going to do that. After all Macedonians suffered much more at the hands of extreme-right Greek governments than from the Yugoslav communists. --Realek 17:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree and disagree with you. Greek slavophones or Slav-Macedonians have suffered at the hands of extreme-right Greek governments; Athens should not only find a formula to express its regrets but must help them more to express their identity and culture within Greece. On the other hand, Greek Slav-Macedonians have also seen their culture invaded by Skopje's communist and post-communist ideology of nation building; their unique slav macedonian dialect is also disappearing under the continued influence of the post WWII, re-formated slav Macedonian language. Politis 17:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

This talk is irrelevant. Please FOCUS or the protect tag may remain here forever.  NikoSilver  19:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Real solution: Rename the Article

Since a number of proposals are out, let me tell you what I propose. This article should be renamed to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. There has NEVER been a compromise about its naming and believe me I have read through almost all archives. It is a BLATANTLY FALSE statement from the fyromian side that such a thing has ever happened. Greek editors are being forced to continuously monitor this article to ascertain that the FORMAL name of this country is included. Well once and for all, let's have a poll in order to arrive at a solution about its name. And not only that, ALL Misplaced Pages articles that include a reference to this one, are force to conform with this name. Greek cities that border with FYROM have to refer to "Republic of Macedonia". This is absurd, how can one conform with a WRONG naming. The repercussions of a wrong and forced decision are felt throughout this encyclopedia and this has to stop. --Avg 16:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Avg, try to understand that WP is not built on desire of just one side, it should always conform to the NPOV policy. Polls are somethimes useful, but if you read the WP article about straw polls that are so many times mentioned here, you will find the following:

A straw poll is not a binding vote, or a way to beat dissenters over the head with the will of the majority.Even if a large number of people vote for one option but some don't, this doesn't mean that that's the "outcome". It means some people are disagreeing, and that has to be addressed.

If you try to force an issue with a poll, expect severe opposition, people adding a polls are evil and stupid option and your poll not being regarded as binding.

Moreover, be aware that the majority of online encyclopedias are referencing my country simply with Macedonia (without mentioning the provisional reference in the intro section):

Encyclopedia.com:

Britannica online:

Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.

Canadian Encyclopedia:

so that is also an option about how this article should be named. But, that is another story, now we are discussing mentioning of the famous provisional reference in the article, not the name of the article itself (or I'm wrong?). Now, I will step out and wait until someone proposes some reasonable compromise. Bitola 16:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

HEY! Weren't you the one who was defending a "consensus" of 5 users just before? Are you now trying to dispute even the next step, which is a poll/rfc? Will you decide: Either both your alleged "consensus" and the poll/rfc are moot (but the poll/rfc is still better), or your "consensus" is valid and the poll/rfc may be an even better solution. I hate double standards so please clarify.  NikoSilver  19:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bitola - or rather, I agree with what is factually correct: the referencing takes place under Macedonia; also, a search for the country is usually carried out under 'Macedonia'. But, of course, the referencing and search of the historical Greek province of Macedonia is also undertaken under the name 'Macedonia' (ergo...?) Politis 17:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Consensus is when 5 users made a compromise solution that was respected by all editors for several months. That gives the validity. Straw poll is not considered a binding vote when someone tries to force some solution with the will of the majority. If you read the first sentences in the WP article about straw polls, you will find this: Decisions should be made by consensus decision making rather than a strict majority rule. In adition, please read the following article: Wp:consensus and you will find why the consensus is more relevant than supermajority. Bitola 19:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is you that must read it. Especially the paragraph Wp:consensus#Consensus_vs._other_policies. There, you will see that the proposed poll/rfc is a way to overcome POV majority (if your ...5 consenting parties can be called such). Nobody asked about a silly straw poll of the current editors (which would be indeed better than your previous "consensus"). I was talking about poll/rfc, which invites neutral users to make an article NPOV.  NikoSilver  22:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes the current discussion is about the provisional reference, but the naming of the article itself was, is and will be an issue that won't go away until finally the conflict is resolved. I am aware that most people refer to FYROM as Macedonia, for two reasons: 1) it is simple and not cryptic as FYROM (which of course I agree is unacceptable as a solution, you deserve a proper name) and 2) they don't know (and don't care to know) the background of the conflict or even that there is a conflict in the first place. I also know that a lot of encyclopedia articles are submitted by authors who clearly have a POV, because there is nobody knowledgeable enough to counteract them. And this doesn't apply only to the Macedonian issue. About the poll: It was you I believe (or was it Realek?) who mentioned that there has been a poll that reached consensus about what we are discussing, while the truth is that no consensus has ever been reached. Let's do that now, to the limit that we can agree to something that is. --Avg 17:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I have elaborated on the proposal for true consensus here.  NikoSilver  20:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That is absolutely excellent Nikos! Well done! Perhaps it should be on the top of the page, because it sums up almost everything written here. --Avg 00:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

"Your feelings towards Macedonians are well known. Now about the apology - it was needed. Everybody must face the facts from their countries past. I just wonder when Greece is going to do that."
This is not a constructive attitude and we're not here to solve political questions. My books say that the Slav Macedonian opression over the Albanian minorities had been uncomparably worse than the one of Slobodan Milosevic in Kosovo. There are no saints and devils in the Balkans, there's only winners and losers. Blaming the others for your own misfortune doesn't provide any physical help. Miskin 20:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Wich books would that be??? And I must add - your last two sentances are just brilliant. I guess if the nazis won the WW2 and "softened" over the years, they would have used something simmilar as an excuse. --Realek 20:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Where did THIS discussion come from?  NikoSilver  22:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Given the above and the intractability of said positions ...

Brief Version Supporters

The cause of the problem

The Republic of Macedonia is a country in Europe. The country is part of a greater region called Macedonia. Greece and Bulgaria are neighboring countries of Macedonia having regions in its borders called Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Greek Macedonia or simply Macedonia (Greece). Since the Republic of Macedonia became an independent state in 1991 after breakup of the former federation Yugoslavia, Greece opposes the right of its neighboring country to use its name (despite the fact that the country uses this name officially since 1945 as one of the six republics of the former federation). For that reason, the country was admitted to the UN under the provisional reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". (note that this is not the proof that the country changed its name, on the contrary, the constitutional name of the country is still the Republic of Macedonia). Moreover, the country and the Macedonian people never accepted that provisional reference as it was done forcibly under the Greek pressure. Finally, most people in my country consider this reference insulting.

How other online encyclopedias deals with this issue

Almost every online encyclopedia (the only exception I found so far is Encarta) uses the short term for the articles about my country and even don't mention the provisional reference in the intro section:

Encyclopedia.com:

Britannica online:

Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.

Canadian Encyclopedia:

How WP deals with this issue

The article about the Republic of Macedonia is named by the country's constitutional name (the Republic of Macedonia), not by its short version (Macedonia), so we are already making an exception regarding the majority of other online encyclopedias and this naming is IMO slightly biased.

Before several months, after a long and exhaustive edit warring mostly between the Macedonian and Greek editors, several editors, including me, agreed to make a compromise. The compromise was built on two decisions:

• We used the constitutional and short naming of the country in the intro section, introducing a on the short naming that will lead to the naming dispute section.

• We created a new section especially intended to describe the naming dispute and to include ALL DATA related to this dispute there (although such sections are unspecific in all other articles about a country). In this section we included the famous provisional reference (the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in bolded version, in order to have a balance between the mentioning between the constitutional and short names in the intro section and the provisional reference in the appropriate section.

Compromise validity came from the fact that since it was achieved, we had no problems and edit warring for several months in this article. However, this compromise was violated by some editors who inserted the provisional reference (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in the intro section. That action disrupted the compromise in a great extent, introducing the naming dispute in more than one place as it was arranged with the compromise.

What is my opinion about the poll

This poll is an excellent example of lacking a good will for reaching a compromise through the polite discussions, understanding and mutual appreciation (you can see some editors even calling the previous compromise a parody?). Simply, there are so much editors that have not very friendly feelings about this country and trying to present the country as worse as possible. Polls are many times useful, but in the WP article about [[Misplaced Pages:Straw_polls|straw polls we can find the following:

A straw poll is not a binding vote, or a way to beat dissenters over the head with the will of the majority.Even if a large number of people vote for one option but some don't, this doesn't mean that that's the "outcome". It means some people are disagreeing, and that has to be addressed.

If you try to force an issue with a poll, expect severe opposition, people adding a polls are evil and stupid option and your poll not being regarded as binding.

What we are supporting

The provisional reference and naming dispute between two countries are important to be mentioned in the article, but we already have a whole section dedicated completely to this dispute. What I and other users are opposing is not the mentioning of the provisional reference itself, rather, for us is unacceptable to overload the article with this dispute as the article about a country should deal with many other aspects of one country, not with dealing with one single issue in several sections. This article shouldn’t be focused on this dispute in such extent. For that reason, I invite you to vote only for the first option.

Extended Version Supporters

It is argued that the alleged "compromise" was a parody. Please see the position of the Extended version supporters analytically here.  NikoSilver  12:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions above and recent edit warring, the following poll is to decide the current rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Namely, there is contention regarding the appellation "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" and the degree to which it should be emphasised in this overview article.

Two renditions are primarily in contention. The first, in place for some two months before recent events, contains a note regarding the above appellation; while the second explicitly indicates the appellation in the first paragraph with details. With both versions, the topic is expatiated with an article section specifically dealing with the topic and further in the country's foreign relations subarticle.

Through approval voting in this poll, Wikipedians can assert support for one or more options and should indicate their choice by simply signing with four tildes (~~~~), followed by an optional one sentence explanation. Wikipedians may also propose variants. Opposing votes will be disavowed, as will be votes from users who have registered on or after 1 March 2006 or those posted by anonymous IPs. This is not a poll/vote about retitling/moving the article nor about mitigating the current article's content; if necessary, those can stem from decisions resulting from this poll. Any Wikipedian who votes below accepts the conditions herein and votes not recorded are effectively abstentions.

Voting will continue to 30 April 2006 23:59 UTC, but may be extended beyond that if any option does not garner a clear consensus or plurality of support.

Thanks for your co-operation! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Is this a legitimate poll? We cannot work with plurality and we cannot vote on content in Misplaced Pages in such a way. --dcabrilo 16:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Which rendition do you prefer for the introduction to the Wp Republic of Macedonia article?

Option #1 – Brief version

• The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east.

• Note that links to the relevant section in the article

Vote below:

1. —Nightstallion (?) 05:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
2. FrancisTyers 11:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
3. Vlatko 13:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
4. Bitola 11:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC) (for my opinion click here)
5. Preferred option, though not necessarily the only agreeable one, for reasons detailed above. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
6. dcabrilo 16:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
7. Makedonec 16:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
8. --Dado 18:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC) This is perhaps the most ridiculous dispute of all that resulted from the break-up of former Yugoslavia and I can't wait until the issue dies. I would however suggest adding FYROM to this option and linking it to a segment that talks about the dispute.
9. Luka Jačov 19:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
10. Most other options are completely wrong or just mostly wrong. The dispute over the name is best covered in a paragraph which gets the sources right and covers the various uses in context. "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was never adopted as a formal title; it isn't even a correct rendition of what the U.N. used to avoid the name. Jonathunder 20:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
11. Support with my other suggestions in the section below. -- infinity0 20:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Option #2 – Extended version

• The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. As the result of a naming dispute with Greece, it has also adopted the term Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as a formal title.

Vote below:

1. Astrokey44|talk 04:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC). If it has adopted FYROM as a formal title, then it should be mentioned --
2. Agree in principle, although "it has adopted" seems suboptimal - isn't it rather the case that others have adopted that name for it? Lukas 08:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
3. Looks good to me right now. Keep in mind that both countries signed the A/RES/47/225. (and it is former not Former in the long name) talk to +MATIA 09:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
4. Per my position, which has analytically been posted here above.  NikoSilver  11:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
5. For reasons i have already explained in this (and other) talk pages --Hectorian 12:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
6. --Nakos2208 13:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
7. --Kalogeropoulos 14:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)--
8. --Agree with everyone else - looks good for now Mallaccaos, 7 April 2006
9. Аgree, but to be mentioned exactly where the formal title of FYROM is used - the UN, bilateral relations with Greece etc., etc.--Komitata 14:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
10. --FocalPoint 15:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
11. --Kjkolb 15:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
12. --Asteraki 17:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
13. Well, this one looks closest to representing the facts, although I would put FYROM up at the top with the other names. For great justice. 17:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
14. The ed17 19:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC) (talk) If it is a formal title, than this should be the beginning!
15. While this is one of the silliest and most egregious international disputes of the last century -- what, would Honduras have to go internationally by the name of "The Grand Duchy of Pigshit" if Mexico demanded it? -- if Macedonia does continue to use FYROM has a formal title, then it must be reflected in the article, whether we like it or not. RGTraynor 19:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
16. ----Kamikazi2 19:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
17. Fine with me, although I would prefer more nuanced version as 3 or 5 abakharev 20:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Option #3 – Extended version (2)

please indicate and categorise below; copy and render in a fashion similar to options 1/2:

• *The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. Due to the naming dispute with Greece, it might be formally referred as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

Vote below:

1. -- Astrokey44|talk 04:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC). This sounds fine, as does #2
2. Better than 2, but "might" doesn't seem to be grammatically appropriate English here - there's nothing hypothetical about it. Propose instead: "it is also formally referred to ... in some contexts". --Lukas 08:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
3. abakharev 20:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Option #4 – Brief version (2)

• The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ) ), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east.

• Note that links to the relevant section in the article

Vote below:

1. International treaties do refer on what you call Republika Makedonija as FYROM. Believe it or not any other reference is historically and scientifically wrong and biased. Exactly because wikipedia should be NPOV (because is not in many editions depending on states' policies upon this matter) the name should be FYROM in accordance to international treaties. If national treaties do change I have not -and I believe many Greeks do not have- any kind of problem to change it. In the meanwhile you should cite why you believe that this country should be named accordingly with the POV term Republika Makedonija. Self determination is not enough as reason. For example, if i want to change the title United States to something else as a member of some indigenous movement you will invoke international legal documents in order prevent any kind of alteration. Why don't you do the same in the present situation?--Kalogeropoulos 12:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
2. Per my position, which has analytically been posted here above. I would also endorse renaming the article. In any case, the paragraph needs expansion to accomodate the FYROM POV as well.  NikoSilver  12:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
3. As per Kalogeropoulos. This version shows what is accepted internationally and not in biliteral relations. I also agree with NikoSilver that there must be an expansion of this version, so that to include the FYROM POV (the only way for this version to be accepted as NPOV) --Hectorian 12:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
4. I strongly believe it's the whole article that has to be renamed as explained here, but for the purposes of this poll, this is the option I subscribe to. I still believe that it does reflect the FYROM POV, because it uses the name Macedonia on its own. Would it be better if it used Republic of Macedonia instead of Macedonia, hence utilising only the two formal names? --Avg 13:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
5. --Nakos2208 13:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
6. Yes, this reflects international UN conventions. But we have to take out 'or simply Macedonia' since it confuses the issue with Greek Macedonia; it should be replaced with an entry that 'the constitutional name of the country is Republic of Macedonia even though it is not recoginised by many countries, including most European states'. Politis 13:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
7. --Aside from option#2, this option seems acceptable also - Mallaccaos, 7 April 2006
8. --FocalPoint 15:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
9. --GunnarRene 15:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
10. --Asteraki 17:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
11. --Odysses (☜) 18:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC) The official name (FYROM) by which this state applied for membership to all international organizations , but NOT simply Macedonia to avoid any confusion.
12. ----Kamikazi2 19:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
13. ----sys < in 20:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Overall acceptable, but the "simply Macedonia" needs to be fixed.